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Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

Posted by dawnpfister (My Page) on
Sun, Dec 18, 11 at 13:21

So I spent my Saturday night with my computer researching toilets for our new master bath addition. Yes, I realize I need to get a life, but since we are all friends here, I am hoping someone can give me some guidance. I have read many toilet reviews on various websites and finally decide on a Toto. After all, every review I have read puts this brand at the top of every list. I decide on the Toto Guenivere comfort height with the "double cyclone" flush. Seems like the best of all worlds. I begin a search for the best price. Of course, just before I decide to hit the "add to cart" button, I see a link from the garden web about 4 links below and can't ignore it. Absolutely horrific reviews on the very toilet I am about to order. Is the Toto double cyclone flush technology the problem? Am I OK with the Toto G-max flush? My husband & I now use separate bathrooms (2 tiny baths in our 1940's home), so I don't have to deal with daily explosions that seem to happen in "his" toilet. Now that we will be sharing what is a good second choice brand of toilet to keep bowl clean-ups to a minimum. The only other brand mentioned in the reviews I read was the Gerber Avalanche. I need to get the straight "poop" on this toilet issue. All opinions welcome!


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

I personally am not a Toto fan and I think there is a lot of holabalu about them for nothing. Why spend all that money on a toilet that in reality works no better than some of the others? I'd much rather put the money saved into so many other more important things. We went with just the basic American Standard Champion. American Standard has been around for a long time and we've never had issues with any of the ones we've had. The new one works like a charm and in two years, we've had no issues.


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

Dawn-
I've installed many types of toilets in over 40 years of home ownership and home renovation. The only one I have never had flushing problems with is a Toto. I mainly am familiar with the Drake and Ultramax models and can't really comment on the specific model you mentioned. Like every manufacturer, I'm sure some models are better than others. Below is a link to a web site that has a list of toilet ratings, and it puts Guinevere at the top of the list. A lot of people in this forum are familiar with this site; it's by a plumber who sells and installs many different brands, so it's based on real world experience.

Here is a link that might be useful: Terry Love Rankings


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

we have the Toto Soiree (same flush as the Guinevere, different style). It is great. We got at least 45% off list. So maybe it was a bit more than others. When you amortize that over many years, it amounts to a rounding error.


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

We've had one American Standard for about 4 years now, no issues. We have one Kohler 1.6, for about a year now, no issues, one Toto Ultramax 1.6 for about a year also. I personally have had two clogs so far with the toto. Someone from another posting stated they thought it was the charmin tissue clogging their toto. I was using charmin during the time I had the clogs also.


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

We bought a Toto Soiree for our powder room renovation because it had the double cyclone flush and the look we wanted. We LOVE it! Sure, it was probably the splurge of the bathroom but you want your toilet to work, (especially with guests using it.) It was worth every penny. I think the double cyclone flush is great! It is now the only toilet in the house we never have problems with. When we renovate our master we will be getting a the same Toto in there as well.


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

I live very near Terry Love, and stopped in to his house/office to discuss toilets (we are planning to replace 2 5gallon+ water hogs). And, I was very confused with everything also.

I think if cleanliness is your biggest concern (with not wanting to have to wash the bowl) go with the double cyclone with sanagloss (and NO CHARMIN--that will be a change for our house too. I buy at Costco, so will have to go Kirkland brand, I guess). Sanagloss is key with the totos for cleanliness.

Terry said that they used to install a lot of Gerbers, but a couple years out, and they were having to replace a lot of them/parts. So, he recommends them a little less. He preference is definitely for the Totos, with certain exceptions (then, he recommends a Caroma--biggest outlet on the market, he says--but they have more issues with bowl cleanliness).


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

Well please tell us about Charmin issues and toilet flushing.


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

The charmin is thicker. So using the same length of paper means a lot more volume to flush.

Of course, the best answer to the clogging issue is getting a washlet. I think we have reduced our TP consumption by over 50% since we got one--probably much more in fact. My husband is totally convinced. He made fun of me when we first got it but now he realizes its advantages in cleanliness and paper usage.


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

I don't think you *could* use the same amount of charmin.

Charmin is very thick, and it doesn't break down very quickly (one of its advantages for use, but bad for the toilet system).


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

Thanks for the input. At least I am getting to the "bottom" of the mixed opinions on the Toto. My husband refuses to use anything but Charmin, so that will likely be a problem. It seems like if Charmin causes clogs in a Toto, it would do so in other toilets also. I failed to mention that we will have white oak strip flooring and pier and beam foundation in this bath to match the rest of the house. Toilet overflows need to be kept to a minimum. We have already had to repair the subfloor in another bath because of water damage due to toilet overflows.


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

The Canadian Water and Wastewater Association publishes a comprehensive review of wc's. (See link.)

FWIW, Toto is often the brand of choice here by customers and new homebuilders. I'm not thrilled by the Toto's usually utilitarian look, so often go with other brands.

Here is a link that might be useful: Maximum Performance of Toilet Fixtures


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

Of note: it will be hard to overflow a low flow/HET. You'd have to flush multiple times without any water going down (they only flush 1.28 gallons or less per flush depending on your toilet type). So, lets say it did get clogged, and totally clogged. You could flush it a few times before you'd KNOW you had a REAL problem and stop flushing it, resolve the problem and not have an overflow.

I'm not a plumber, but the bowls are the same general size. So, I am pretty sure you'd have plenty of warning before it overflowed (unlike my 5gal+ guzzlers).


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

worthy: "The Canadian Water and Wastewater Association publishes a comprehensive review of wc's."

The MaP test is a welcome objective test of one aspect of toilet performance under controlled conditions using synthetic turds of standardized size and consistency that emulate the behavior of "average" turds but may not match the real world waste generated in any specific use of a toilet. A "comprehensive review" the MaP test is not. The MaP test is a reverse-engineered attempt to replicate the proprietary trade secret testing that has been performed for many years within Toto's research and development labs.

Among world manufacturers of toilets, Toto and Inax (Toto's main competitor in Japan) conduct more research and development than anybody else, and the two companies are fiercely mutually competitive. In Japan, this year's new Toto model will beat last year's best Inax, and this year's new Inax model will beat last year's best Toto. Considering all aspects of toilet performance, Inax and Toto toilets (and advanced toilet seats) are a notch better than any other toilets in the world.


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

@herrin_maven--
I just wish Inax and Toto would work to outcompete each other in large waste removal... For that, it sounds like (via Terry Love) that really Caroma is currently the best. He provides feedback to Toto, and he is waiting, though not holding his breath, for them to do that...


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

We have Kohler toilets in our current house (don't know the exact name) and I would never put those in again.

We've had problems with Charmin too and no longer use it.

For the new house, I was going to get Toto toilets. But in the end we got American Standard Champion 4 toilets. They were just installed and not working yet so I can't tell you much at this point.


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

"The MaP test is a reverse-engineered attempt to replicate the proprietary trade secret testing that has been performed for many years within Toto's research and development labs."

I had to laugh a little at this. I'm imagining a team of "researchers" who scoff at the thought of using "synthetic turds" and instead personally supply the test material. Just imagine the job description!

In my house I have one yet to be replaced 5 gallon Kohler from the 1970s. I replaced yet another 5 gallon with a Toto Drake 1.5. In another bathroom I replaced an American Standard Champion with a Toto Eco Drake 1.25. We experienced some minor clogging in the 5 gallon and the Champion. I have not experienced a single clog with either Toto using Charmin Ulta Strong toilet paper. Certainly I try to be conscious of how much paper I use, though I can't be certain the male in the house does the same. I don't even have plungers in any of the bathrooms except the one with the 5 gallon now. Unfortunately, I do have bowl cleanliness issues with both Drakes. I had to fit a 10" rough in and could not find a Drake with Sanigloss, so unfortunately neither have that option. Most of the time if I'm careful about keeping the toilet regularly cleaned, the cleanliness issue is somewhat infrequent and not too bad. But it still is an issue. If others do not have this issue with Sanigloss, sounds like a good option.


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

kirkhall: I just wish Inax and Toto would work to outcompete each other in large waste removal... For that, it sounds like (via Terry Love) that really Caroma is currently the best.

The Caroma is a "washdown" technology toilet; that is, it works pretty much in the same manner as a pit latrine with the waste going straight down a hole. Caromas have a small water spot: "things" usually are not fully submerged before flushing, and some say that the Caromas are most civilized when there is a cleaning brush handy alongside the toilet to help erase the turd tracks known as "streaking." All in all, the Caromas are "best" for some people's criteria, but I doubt that there would be a lot of love for a Caroma in our household.

If you read Terry's replies to posters in the site's forums, especially his replies to people who get overenthusiastic about MaP, you will see that he supplies illustrations about the radius of the curves in the passage below the trapway, where the waste flow, headed toward the rear, makes a big U turn toward the front, then another 90º or so turn downward to connect with the vertically oriented outflow pipe; and (for instance) the Toto toilets tend to have larger radius curves than (for instance) the Kohler toilets.

Here is a link that might be useful: One of Terry Love's replies on his site


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

pricklypearcactus: "I'm imagining a team of 'researchers' who scoff at the thought of using 'synthetic turds' and instead personally supply the test material. Just imagine the job description!"

You need to read Rose George's book, The Big Necessity, which is actualy a serious book, but one written with an eye to keeping the reader turning pages.

In The Big Necessity, there is an anecdote about Toto's research technicians (Inax and Toto really do have rather large R&D facilities) in the feverish early days of development of advanced toilet seats; at the time Toto was lagging behind Inax in development of the product. If Toto's advanced toilet seat was to provide both the function of cleansing after a bowel movement and a bidet function, it was essential to know the distance between two certain spots of a women's anatomy in order to know how to angle the respective sprays.

But Toto found that women were not particularly enthusiastic to volunteer for serious researchers to take a ruler and measure that distance. So the male researchers were dispatched to certain bars where commonly the bargirls repair to a separate room for private time with individual male customers, if you know what I mean. The researchers brought their rulers with them to the bars.


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

I don't get the Charmin issue. We use Charmin with our Toto and have never had an issue. I think people just use way too much toilet paper.


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

I understand the major drawback to a Caroma...which is why I wish someone else worked on engineering for "large waste removal".

Although we have 5+ gallon guzzlers, and I've worked the math and know we'll save annually in water usage, I haven't replaced either toilet because I don't know if a Drake II will cut it, or if I will need a Caroma in our house...


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

Have a Toto Guinevere in powder room and another Toto (can't remember name) in DD bathroom. Disappointing results for both. Clogs, handles that stick and need to be jiggled, flimsy seats. To be fair, neither clogs nearly as easily as the old Eljer in the soon-to-be renovated master. DH and I will not be investing in another Toto, however. Surely there is a reasonable runner-up in the toilet competition. . .Keep this thread going. Responses are helpful.


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

My $0.02 - I installed a Kohler Bancroft comfort height / elongated bowl toilet in our 2nd floor bath 3 years ago (almost 4) and it has NEVER clogged or had any other trouble.

It's the main bath in the house used by me, my wife and 10 year old daughter.

Just re-doing the basement powder room and ordered another Kohler Bancroft for it. It makes an odd sound flushing, but it seems to work perfectly every time. Bowl stays clean too, and it's got a classic 1930's look that matches my 1920's house nicely :)

Also, and this is just a rant - I HATE push button flush toilets. Something about pressing on something with my finger to flush a toilet isn't right and doesn't feel sanitary. The Bancroft has a side-mounted lever which takes very little effort to operate and can be done with the heel of your palm, a single finger tip, back of your hand, whatever.


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

> But Toto found that women were not particularly enthusiastic to volunteer for serious researchers to take a ruler and measure that distance. So the male researchers were dispatched to certain bars where commonly the bargirls repair to a separate room for private time with individual male customers, if you know what I mean. The researchers brought their rulers with them to the bars.

What, does Toto not employ any female engineers who could check this out on themselves? If not, don't any of them have wives or girlfriends? Or gee, any female friends at all? Don't they know any gynecologists, who I'm sure could answer their question? I have a hard time believing this story - I can't imagine a major company paying their workers to visit strip clubs. And I certainly wouldn't want to be the guy who pulled out a ruler and asked to take measurements.....

My commode experience:

Toto Drake / G-Max 1.6g - won't clog or overflow (which is why plumbers like it), but it send enough water down the sides or back of the bowl to clean the walls well, and I sometimes have a piece of toilet paper that sticks to the side after a flush. Nearly all the water is sent down a flume in the front. It does flush incredibly quickly - it's done in about 2 seconds, and refills in maybe 15.

Kohler Ingenium - inexpensive (some of them); these don't seem to do well in standardized testing, but they work well in real life. It spreads the water more evenly, and it swirls for a few seconds during each flush which results in a clean bowl with no sticking paper. Flush lever has to be held down for about a full second or it won't take.

Crane - a cheap loo that doesn't seem to ever get mentioned here, but the 1.6g version (sorry, don't have the model number, but it's their basic cheap one) works extremely well and leaves a clean bowl; only complaint is the small area normally under water. Avoid their 1.1g low-water version though - it's awful.

American Standard Champion 4 - works very well, inexpensive, but it sure uses a lot of funky parts in the tank like the flapper or valve that aren't stocked at the big-box hardware store.


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

If you want the best data to base your selection on, go to this link

http://www.toiletabcs.com/toilet-performance.html

The actual test results are in a link about halfway down the page

http://www.toiletabcs.com/pdf/MaP-Toilet-Test-Results-9th-Edition.pdf

The MaP test is a standardized, scientific test by an independent organization to measure the flushing ability of toilets. Pretty much every toilet you can think of is tested. I have done quite a bit of research and decided to only consider toilets that performed at the maximum test limit of 1,000. Based on that, we selected the American Standard Cadet 3 series (we went with the one piece for aesthetics) and have been extremely pleased with it since it was installed a year ago.


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

vivaldi: "I have done quite a bit of research and decided to only consider toilets that performed at the maximum test limit of 1,000."

The second half of that sentence belies the first half. Had you done quite a bit of research and understood it, then you would have known how utterly silly that criterion is when it is the exclusive criterion. Would you base your decision on which family car to buy solely upon the highest marked speed on the speedometer? Would an Indianapolis 500 race car, exquisitely designed to excel at a single task, serve as well as a humble Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla to haul four bags of groceries back home from the supermarket?

A MaP-rated 1000 toilet will not flush the typical 250 gm to 300 gm dump any better than a MaP-rated 400 toilet will; every MaP 400 toilet can flush 300 grams of the standardized test pieces completely and repeatedly. And even though a toilet may qualify for a 1,000 MaP rating, that rating provides no indication whether it will flush a 250 gm dump even as well as another toilet with a 400 MaP rating will if the dump contains long or hard pieces that differ from the standardized short and relatively soft pseudo-turds of the MaP test. Have you ever created a flush load of 2.2 pounds (one kilogram) of waste in a single movement? Unless you have, you do not need a 1,000 gm flush capacity, which is what MaP 1000 means.


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

Should I be starting a new thread?

Hi,

I am new to this site and would really like some input on wall hung toilets... They are relatively new (with Toto being touted the most), but my husband thinks they may turn out to be more trouble than we bargained for!


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RE: Please, I need the real 'poop' on this toilet controversy!

We have the Toto model with dual flush, one lighter and one stronger, and we love it. Reduced water use, and it has never clogged, and we use Charmin.

I also love the look of the base of the toilet as the "skirt" goes straight to the floor without any curves to trap dust.


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