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janesylvia

Thermostatic valve or pressure balance valve?

janesylvia
11 years ago

I am considering Delta 17 series or 17T series shower kit. 17 has pressure balance valve, while 17T has thermostatic valve and I need to buy each item separately because 17T series does not come with handheld shower head.

I know pressure balance valves safeguard against sudden and unexpected temperature shocks while in bath or shower. When a toilet is flushed or dishwasher or other faucets are turned on, it automatically balances hot and cold water pressure. Thermostatic valves allow you to precisely preselect your water temperature beforehand.

Does thermostatic valve also safeguard against sudden temperature shocks if dishwasher is turned on, toilet is flushed, or faucets are turned on? Is it better to choose thermostatic or pressure balance valve for a shower stall? I am living in the San Francisco bay area.

Any input is greatly appreciated.

Comments (49)

  • enduring
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mongo, do you mean that the last 2 sentences in your post both suggest getting a thermostatic valve? Or, do you intend to use the new "edit" feature? :)

  • MongoCT
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Nope, correct as written.

    EDIT: Correct as poorly written.

    If you have wonky plumbing, a TS valve would be your better bet.

    If you prefer precise temp control, a TS would also be the better choice.

    If you're not a slave to shower fashion and you have good plumbing and can accept an occasional temperature shift of a degree or two while showering, and you'd like to get all that for about $100 for the valve and trim kit, then look at the Symmons Temptrol pressure balance valves. They will win awards for durability and reliability. But not for sexy design.

    For all the Temptrol valves I've installed over the years, I've only needed replacement parts maybe 2 or 3 times. And that is for valves installed 20 to 30 years ago. Each time Symmons sent me replacement parts free of charge. No questions asked.

    That is not a solicitation to try to get you away from Delta. It's a simple statement of my personal experience.

  • enduring
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mongo, so it sounds like it would be typical for most people to put in the thermostatic valves. Is that right? When would one choose the other a pressure balance valve? It sounds like the thermostatic valves have more features. Is it a cost issue?

  • GreenDesigns
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Most people actually put in pressure balancing valves. Because they are cheap. Not better. Cheaper.

  • MongoCT
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It can be a cost issue. Thermostatic can easily be 3 to 4 to 6 times the cost of a pressure balanced when including the trim kit.

    Thermostatic valves do provide a higher degree of temperature control and provide a wider blanket of true temperature protection. In general they also offer more control. Temperature and volume versus just temperature.

    In typical new construction though, either is fine in terms of performance.

    But for sure, Thermostatic valves do, for the most part, have prettier trim kits. The trim kits are more elegant looking. They are available in a wider array of finishes. And the valves are a higher level of technology, so to speak, when compared to pressure balanced valves.

    I actually install more thermostatic valves than pressure balanced. And I have to say that when people choose valves, about 90% of the time the initial choice is based on how the trim kit looks. And it's usually a thermostatic that is chosen because their trim kits generally look better.

    Some go with that choice because money is not a factor. For others, budget does come in to play, and they might back into a PB valve.

    Where budget is a factor, or for people that value practicality over pretty, or for people that have simply requested "inexpensive but bulletproof". My first recommendation is the Temptrol line of PB valves.

    The irony is a lot of families will choose a nice pretty and expensive TS for the master bath. Then they will choose a basic inexpensive PB for the kids' bath. Who do you think would actually need the higher level of scald protection? The parents or the kids?

    I sometimes see it as style over substance. A Chevy and a Lexus will both get you to work. But one might give a more comfortable ride than the other. On a daily basis both will provide you with decent transportation. But should something go horribly wrong, one car might provide better crash protection than the other, just as one valve can provide better scald protection than the other.

    Bad analogy...but does that make sense?

    FWIW, I install both types. If I thought one was unsafe or a danger risk, I would not install it.

  • enduring
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for your thoughtful response Mongo :)

  • kmcg
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I followed mongo's advice and got the Symmons Temptrol for our basement bath. (Thank you!) Under $100, and everyone likes it just fine. For our upstairs bath, I got a Hansgrohe thermostatic, because I really like the idea of being able to keep a static temperature while reducing or increasing volume. Much more expensive than the Symmons, but it sounds good in concept. Not in use yet, so I can't report on a comparison.

  • enduring
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Please do report kmcg, when you get the Hansgrohe in. It is nice to get the report on the Symmons too. Really something to consider.

  • kirkhall
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Do you all have any pictures of the Symmons setup? The ones I find online are not really sufficient... Anyone have it with a tub (like this setup, see link)?

    Here is a link that might be useful: Symmons for tub/shower combo

  • attofarad
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm wondering about response time of pressure balancing vs. thermostatic. I've only used thermostatic.

    It seems that a pressure balancing valve can react almost instantaneously. My experience with Hansgrohe Axor thermostatic is that, when another hot water faucet somewhere turns on, the shower gets colder, then gradually returns to about the same temperature.

    Hansgrohe also makes pressure balancing valves with volume controls, or with volume/ diverter, all built together.

  • attofarad
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Another comment about the utility of the thermostatic. My wife likes the shower hotter than I do. Each of us can look at the position before turning the volume control on, and set it to exactly what we like. If we want to make an adjustment, it is very predictable how much the temperature will change for a given rotation of the control.

  • kmcg
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    kirkhall - your link is the Symmons setup that I have. It looks exactly like the one in your picture. I can take a photo if you want me to - anything specific you want to see?

  • kirkhall
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    KMCG-- I'm hoping to see/understand better the control dials on the trim. And, also, to be honest, how it looks installed with some tile around it... Do you find the center dial "sharp" with the "spikes"?

    And, how do you like the function of the head?

  • MongoCT
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Do you find the center dial "sharp" with the "spikes"? "

    Though the overall "style" of the trim is the same, they have different versions of trim for the temptrol valve.

    There are a couple of versions of the "spikey center dial" that you referred to, several styles of lever handles, etc. Same with the graphics on the temperature ring. Different styles of graphics.

    They also sell a different style line that fits the temptrol valve. The Allura comes to mind:

    Personally, I prefer lever handles over knobs. Personal opinion. I rotate the lever to point the handle at the same "o'clock" position, it's easy to get your preferred water temp each and every time.

  • janesylvia
    Original Author
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mongoct, thank you so much for your very detailed information.

    Now Delta also has pressure balance valve 17 series which has separate control of water flow and temperature. But as you pointed out, for best temperature control, thermostatic valve is better than the pressure balance valve.

    I love the thermostatic valve's feature of "set the temperature and forget it", but I concern how the shower temperature would be affected if someone else turned on faucet and if it's quite uncomfortable. I saw Attofarad brought that up as in his post above:
    "It seems that a pressure balancing valve can react almost instantaneously. My experience with Hansgrohe Axor thermostatic is that, when another hot water faucet somewhere turns on, the shower gets colder, then gradually returns to about the same temperature."

    I also saw a similar comment on amazon's review on Delta T17T078-SS Leland Tempassure 17T Series Valve Trim Only, Stainless

    "Since this is a thermostatic valve only (no pressure balancing), it responds to temperature changes caused by varying line pressure slower, but it only takes a second or two to compensate. If you have a large reserve of hot water and relatively stable groundwater temperatures, but have other people turning faucets on and off and you don't have a plumbing manifold in your home, you may be better off with a cheaper pressure balance valve. But, if you like the idea of 'set it and forget it', then a thermostatic valve like this is the way to go! Once I initially set my desired shower temperature, I haven't had to change it - I simply turn the 'volume' handle up and enjoy my shower."

    Thank you very much.

  • kmcg
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    for kirkhall - here's the handle. This is the cheapest one; I like the one mongo posted much more, but this is for a basement bathroom. I plan never to shower there again once our upstairs bath is done!

  • kmcg
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    And here's the showerhead. Again, very basic, but everyone likes it so far.

  • enduring
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Kmcg, for the info and pictures. It looks very nice, and functional. I love functional.

  • condo_man
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mongoct-

    I presently have separate hot & cold shower valves.

    I removed the 2.5 gpm restrictor on my shower head, which increases the volume of water for a more enjoyable shower.

    Do Symmons-style valves have a restrictor that limits water flow, like my shower head restictor?

    Will converting my separate hot & cold shower valves to a Symmons valve have any negative effect on my modified shower head?

    Thanks

  • MongoCT
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The valve, like all valves, does have an effective GPM pass-through restriction. Half-inch valves are usually around 5-8GPM.

    That's not a Symmons restriction. It's sort of like a "water flowing through half-inch pipes" restriction.

    Once you replace your current hot and cold valves with the single Symmons valve, there is a set screw that limits the max hot water to cold water ratio that can come out of the valve. That can be adjusted for temperature control.

    For volume, no, the Symmons won't negatively restrict your flow. Even with the restrictor removed from the shower head, it's likely that the construction of the unrestricted shower head will still have a lesser volume pass-through than the valve itself.

  • stan_
    8 years ago

    I have a question about these valves: http://kohler.dirxion.com/faucetsserviceparts/app.php?RelId=6.4.7.1

    Page 21 - why they have 2 different types: thermostatic and stacked thermostatic with volume control? Does plain thermostatic valve allow to control volume (pressure) by moving handle back and forward? Or you must have a stacked valve with 2 handles to be able to control the volume?

  • MongoCT
    8 years ago

    Stan, you got it right with your last sentence. The "Thermostatic" controls temperature only. The "Stacked Thermostatic" controls temperature and volume.


  • stan_
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    MongoCT: Thank you very much for the clarification.

    By the way, how do you call valves that control both temperature and volume with just one handle that moves in two orthogonal planes?

  • monicakm_gw
    8 years ago

    This may be elementary...I wondered about the two differences also. I read on line and was convinced I needed Thermostatic. Called Delta and was immediately asked "will there be two shower heads in this shower? No
    Then you really don't need Thermostatic. I DID get a pressure balanced shower/tub spout that DOES change the water temp interdependently of of pressure. So if you like the same temp most of the time, you can set it and forget it and just adjust the pressure. If this had been a shower that was used on a daily bases, I might have gone with the Thermostatic. You never know tho. Ours isn't in yet but DH just had open heart surgery last week and needed a shower really bad! So he's making do on shower bench that is sitting in my bathtub.


  • dlowen7861
    8 years ago

    I am installing a shower head and a hand held shower (I don't need both to run simultaneously). Do I need a separate diverter and trim, or can I opt for a PB/TS valve that includes a diverter--or does it not matter? I'm most concerned about creating a modern aesthetic appearance.


  • MongoCT
    8 years ago

    For two shower heads, you can have an individual supply valve for each head. Two valves, each with their own trim kit. The advantage is that you can run them at different temperatures should you choose.

    Or you can have single supply valve that has a diverter built in to the supply valve. With that you'd have a single trim kit and just a single control valve on the wall.

    Or you can use a supply valve that does not have an integral diverter and install a separate diverter to direct the water where you want it to go. That'd get you back to two valve bodies (one supply valve, one diverter valve) and two trim kits.

    "Modern" sometimes means "clean" with minimal clutter. One valve.

    Or "modern" can be cluttered, but clutter with clean lines. Two valves.

    Or it can be something else.


  • dbabrams
    8 years ago

    Isn't there another way to set up for two showerheads by using a arm mounted diverter?

  • PRO
    Cabot & Rowe
    8 years ago

    Yes but usually the holes in the pipes, fittings, valve and such are so small the water flow is terrible.

  • dbabrams
    8 years ago

    I guess I hadn't thought of that. I was thinking of doing it using Speakman products. They sell combo units set up that way with a hand shower, so I was assuming the flow would be adequate for that application. I was going to spec my own parts so I could use their better fixed showerheads.

  • d_and_j
    8 years ago

    We have a 2 story with garden level basement. Our hot water heater is in our usually cold basement. Our master bath and kids bath is on the upper level. It seems like it takes a good 5 minutes of wasting water before the water becomes warm enough to shower. What is a good solution to eliminate water waste, short of putting a hot water tank on upper level? Would a thermostatic valve help with this? If so, which type would you recommend? Thank you for your thoughtful input.

  • Patricia Kuehne
    8 years ago

    To Mongo: We have a far different situation: I have a Dornbrecht deck mounted faucet, hand held shower handle, and HAD one handle that regulated the temp, and turned the water on and off. I think, not sure. These were given to us as a gift from an friend in Germany. The handle that turned the water on and off and reg. the temp, was made of black plastic. It has broken off. There are only THREE holes in the tub deck. This part needs to be replaced, but I have found nothing that will work. Need a handle, preferably deck mounted that can be mounted on that tub deck, in the same hole,that turns the water on and off and can adjust from hot to cold. Do you have any suggestions for us. THANK you so much, Patricia K, in La.

  • _sophiewheeler
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    You will need to remove the access panel anyway to change out the valve underneath the deck, so just cut another hole in the tub deck for whatever configuration that you want. Problem solved. Be careful with a deck mounted hand held shower. It is not intended to serve as a tub shower installation, and your tub is likely not properly waterproofed to act as a shower.

  • Patricia Kuehne
    8 years ago

    Do NOT want to cut another hole in tub. I just want ONE valve to turn on water and adjust hot and cold. I know what a hand held shower will do and all I do with it is clean the tub up with it. and yes my tub surround and all the walls is waterproofed, we knew how to accomplish that when we installed everything. Thanks, still waiting on info for ONE valve that will do what we need. Thank you for your information. PK. ps waiting on Mongo to chime in, I am sure he can suggest something that will work for us.

  • enduring
    8 years ago

    Have you contacted the manufacturer for replacement part? If you check out Symmons they might have something but I would think you would need a new valve.

  • Patricia Kuehne
    8 years ago

    THERE is NO part available in US, Part was from Germany and they don't have it here, there it is $1800

  • homepro01
    8 years ago

    Dornbracht is available in the US, based in Georgia. You can also order directly from Dornbracht in Europe through a couple of websites. I am not quite sure I understand your situation though. Do you mind sharing a picture of the current unit? Maybe it will help give you better advice.

  • Patricia Kuehne
    8 years ago

    My husband speaks German and they no longer have this part I am afraid.

  • _sophiewheeler
    8 years ago

    Then you have to buy a whole new valve and trim anyway. It's not at all a big deal to drill another hole in the tub while you have the access panel open changing out that valve.

  • xedos
    8 years ago

    See your other thread for a hansgrohe link that should solve your problem.

  • allie818
    8 years ago

    We are trying to decide between the Delta 1-Handle Temperature Control Valve (pressure balance only Model #T14053) and the Delta 1-Handle Volume and Temperature Control (thermostatic + volume control Model # T17053) for our shower remodel. We are planning to have a rainfall and a handheld by using a diverter. I was told at some point that having thermostatic + volume control was going to give me better flow than the pressure balance valve. Is this true?

    Also, it looks like there's also this TempAssure version of (Delta Model # T17T053) the thermostatic + volume control trim. What does the TempAssure add? It is a lot more expensive though. Is it worth getting?

    Thanks for the advice!

  • PRO
    FaucetList, Inc.
    6 years ago

    This has discussion has a lot of great information. I'm not sure if everyone's questions have been answered but we have a very in depth article on our site regarding the difference between the Delta 17 and 17T series trim kits. It gets pretty heavy into the details. Others above have given a pretty good explanations in this discussion but I think some aspects may still be a little unclear. Here's a summary of the differences detailed in our article. 1) Water pressure: 17 Series cartridges operate using pressure balancing techniques as opposed to actually sensing temperature. This means that water pressure from a 17 Series trim will be less than a 17T Series. 2) Temperature limit stop: If you live in an area where seasonal temperature differences are greater, you may have to adjust the temperature limit stop in your 17 series shower periodically. You will never need to do this with a 17T series. 3) Accuracy: 17T keeps the temperature in a tighter range. If you adjust the temperature handle more often the 17T will give you more predictable results with less fiddling around required to get exactly the temperature you want. 4) Shower systems with multiple spray outlets: In the case of a shower system you will require more water pressure and a 17T will be better. You will also get better pressure from a standard showerhead with a 17T. These are some of the reasons the price is higher. For more info check out our article: https://faucetlist.com/blogs/buying-guides/delta-thermostatic-shower-faucet-trim-kit-cartridges-monitor-17-series-vs-17t-series-tempassure


    read the guide

  • pearadise1
    5 years ago

    Does anyone have any experience with a Tankless water heater and new shower valve.

    Am finding conflicting info. I Like the Delta series 17 trims but do not know if the PB valve of the 17 series or the Thermostatic valve on the 17T series would be the better choice. Not a whole spa system just 1 shower head but if I'm understanding correctly, the PB valve might lower the flow on the hot side which in turn would feed back to the tankless and possibly shut it down since the ignition is based on flow. While the 17T valve might be expensive overkill, is it less likely to have issues downstream from the tankless? ( I currently have 2 valve set up and only turn on the hot but this is no longer acceptable)

  • enduring
    5 years ago

    I have tankless water tank and have both types of valves in the Hansgrohe brand. I don't have hot water shut down.


    I did wonder about my dishwasher hot water intake because of low flow. Since I have a heater in the dishwasher I didn't think too much about it. But recently I turned down my tankless heater down to 120f so that there would need to be a larger hot water flow rate. I rarely need 130-140f water so I turned it down. My laundry and dish washers both have internal heaters to get water up to temps anyway.

  • HU-916523092
    3 years ago

    Does a Thermostatic valve system generally end up requiring more repairs/replacements than a Pressure Balance valve system? Or not? And why? Is one of these systems considered more reliable/durable/less prone to problems than the other? Why?

  • PRO
    FaucetList, Inc.
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    All Delta shower cartridges have a lifetime guarantee so neither 17 or 17T fixtures are more likely to need repairs / replacements. Typically the reason for wanting a thermostatic 17T fixture is 1) they have better water pressure due to the mechanism by which the pressure is balanced and 2) in areas with seasonal temperature changes to ground water, a thermostatic fixture will automatically adjust, whereas the pressure balanced fixture may require an adjustment to the temperature limit stop.

  • HU-916523092
    3 years ago

    I'm interested in a more general answer about whether or not a Thermostatic valve system is considered more prone to problems/repair/replacement than a Pressure Balance valve system or not - - which one is more reliable/durable? Not just regarding Delta fixtures, and regardless of whether or not the fixture comes with a lifetime or limited guarantee. Repairs/replacements etc require paying a plumber to fix, and I'd prefer to get the valve system that has been proven to be much more reliable/durable and problem-free.

  • Stephen Pear
    3 years ago

    I absolutely couldn't get what I considered good reliable info on the 2 types and their performance with tankless water heaters. Looking at the designs, I went against everyone's advice to get the pressure balance (less expensive) valve. I have to say I couldn't be happier with the way the Thermostatic T series worked for me. It maintains temp without sacrificing flow which controls the tankless. As to your question I cannot say that I have ever noticed another open valve affecting the temp while taking a shower. I have small house and only 2 of us so the situation rarely occurs but I just tried it for you. With the shower running, I opened the sink then flushed toilet, I felt no noticeable change in temp. Hope this helps.

  • HU-916523092
    3 years ago

    Thanks very much for the help.

    I’m still hoping to hear from someone with experience with these 2 different types of valve systems (NOT just limited to Delta products) – e.g. an experienced plumber, contractor, etc – who can tell me specifically if a Thermostatic valve system OR a Pressure Balance valve system has been proven to be much more reliable/durable and problem-free regarding repairs/replacement parts needed.