I am also shocked by that price. I would have estimated about half that.

Trebuchet: Actually, he knows how I know him. He's been working off and on at my neighbors for at least three years and did a small roof repair for me about a year ago (very reasonably). And he knows I did a major renovation/addition three years ago...added about 80 square feet to the back of the kitchen (over which the new bathroom is to go, so it included a foundation and all the plumbing and electrical work that will also handle the additional bathroom above it...it was all roughed in the ceiling when the first floor addition was put on). That renovation included gutting the original kitchen, 70 plus square feet of soapstone counter, 25 plus custom cabinets, a 1/2 bath, 4 new windows plus 3 small fixed windows, 36" gas range and 42" hood, new refrigerator, DW, 2 sinks, a soapstone heating stove, 240 square feet of limestone floor, 6X12 back deck and stairs to it, relocating a stairway to the basement and more. And it cost about $100,000. I don't think the economy has changed that much!!!

I think for some reason he really doesn't want the business, but why he didn't just say so, I can't imagine. He could have just said he was too busy or the job too small or...anything, really.

Wow. That does sound high!

Must be the same guy or related to the design builder that quoted us $70,000.00 to FRAME our bathroom and front entry addition, total 210 sq ft. If I remember correctly, that did NOT include roofing!

I was so hurt by that quote (this was the estimate from his framer, so I'm guessing his 16-17% would have been ON TOP of that!), that it took over a year before I could even begin to contemplate starting the process all over. We had spent 3 months and $2K talking to him, he knew our TOTAL budget was $70K for the complete project including all fixtures, new roof, flooring, etc. We assume he either thought we were complete fools, or he just didn't want the job. Why the heck didn't he just tell us that from the very beginning, when he agreed to take on the job? Was so very disconcerting...we ended up switching gears, helped our son buy his first home, and are DIYing the complete renovation of our present bathroom with no addition.

End your dealings with him now...don't lose a moment's sleep over why he has done this...just thank your lucky stars you are not committed to him...you're not I sincerely hope?

raehelen:

You're forgetting the delicate position contractors are in when giving "free" estimates.

Let's say a contractor notices your turning every screw in your duplex receptacles to vertical. You tell him about how the last 3 contractors you've dealt with were all crooks and/or incompetent and you want the estimate to break down material/labor/markup/profit.

If he tells you that you two aren't right for each other, you're offended and that's what you tell everyone at the Elk's club. If he gives you a number that's too high, that's what you tell everyone.

What would you do if you were him?

When we got estimates for our total gut job bathroom remodel we found that many contractors really don't like to do bathrooms. Either they gave me an incredible high estimate (double) or just didn't get back to me at all. Yours sounds double.

Trebruchet,

I'm not at all sure what you are getting at? How about just being honest? "Sorry, I am too busy right now to work on small projects, I know xyz would be happy to talk to you"

I think in both Melissa's and in my case, the builder (Is that who you are referring to as 'the contractor' in your little parable?) had spent more than enough time with us. In our case, we had paid him for his time. He wasted months of our time. If he felt he didn't know enough sub-trades to do our job within our budget, I feel he had a moral obligation not to lead us on. He came to our home, spoke with us many times, saw the renovations we had already done DIY, knew exactly where we stood, and at no time in the process gave us any inkling that he didn't want the job or that we had unreasonable expectations. That is, until he presented us with the $70K estimate for framing.

We just put in a 1000 sq ft paver patio with retaining wall this summer. I had to contact 11 exacavators until I found the gem who did the work for us. Most did not even return my calls, or show up to give us the estimate. The not-returning calls is one thing (poor business practice in my opinion), but to make an appointment to give us an estimate, and then not bother showing up? I would have much preferred "Sorry, I am not interested".

I will (and already have) pass on the name of the fellow who did great work for us. I don't have the names or couldn't be bothered about the ten others.

The most expensive portion of any addition is the first two feet. That's where you have to tie in the new to the old. That means roofing, walls and supporting walls, electrical, plumbing, and HVAC. All of that has to be touched and altered for any addition. You're not just nailing up a box and putting it next to the house. If your HVAC is at the limit, you may need all new with additional capacity or a standalone mini split for the new square footage. That's 2-20K right there. Same with the electrical. If you have a 100 amp panel, you're not going to have room for the new circuits that the bath will need without a panel replacement, and if you're unlucky, a whole new service drop. For plumbing, it requires a certain slope, and also venting. It depends on which code you are under, but you may need to significantly rework portions of your whole house's drains and vents to have the addition in compliance.

One of the biggest factors here is if the contractor is licensed and insured and willing to pull permits to have it inspected. That type of above board contractor will cost more than a hack who doesn't have any of that and will disappear with your money before the project even starts.

Doing a project correctly isn't cheap. I don't personally find your quote at all shocking for an upper end remodel.

Here's a chart from Remodeling Magazine for mid range bath additions. Nationwide averages.

Here's the upscale numbers. Nationwide averages.

live wire oak:

Excellent post. Thanks.

P.S.:

There is a discussion over at contractortalk.com where guys, who aren't going out of business, discuss how amazed they are at how high there quotes have to be.

This post was edited by Trebruchet on Wed, Nov 27, 13 at 16:36

Live wire oak: You make some excellent points. But many aren't applicable in my case...which makes the high bid so much more baffling to me. The bathroom addition was planned as a second stage when I added on to the kitchen below 3 years ago. Thus, the plumbing and electric lines are there, above the ceiling of the kitchen, in the right places for the toilet, sink and tub and ready to be connected up to the bathroom when it's built. The electrical service was already upgraded and can handle to load. There's no practical way to extend the HVAC system to the new bathroom and it will be a lightly used guest room, so I'll forgo it...and just assume the HVAC servicing the attached bedroom will do a good enough job. Heat will be provided through radiant heat in the floor...since it isn't practical to pull the steam radiator system in from the the rest of this old house.

At 5 by 11, this bathroom won't fit much more than a full size tub, a small console sink and a toilet. No fancy shower, no extensive vanity, no closets, etc. It's just a rectangle. Moreover, the contractor's estimate did NOT include the cost of tub, sink, toilet, faucets for sink or shower, tile for walls or floor or even the windows. What's he's talking about providing for that princely sum is: Demolition of one window and 5 square feet of oak paneling beneath it on the interior and about 90 square feet of vinyl siding on the outside. Framing, plywood and insulation for the walls and roof. About 220 square feet of vinyl siding for the outside of the addition, 55 square feet of flat roof, drywall, painting, plumbing and electrical and installation of tile. Still sound reasonable?

Oh...and LWO, the estimate also didn't include approximately $1,000 to draw up plans or the permit. They're additional. I know you usually get what you pay for. I've had both good and bad experiences with two extensive remodels in the past. In this case, I can't imagine WHAT he's planning to build those walls out of to justify an estimate of over $1,000 a square foot BEFORE the costs of fixtures, tile, lighting, etc. are included.

melissastar:

For some reason, he doesn't want to work for you.

An addition done before current codes were put in force may not still be "to current codes". So work done a couple of years ago may or may not still be complete and correct. Energy codes, hurricane or tornado wind codes, earthquake codes, these things are changing frequently.

And you can't just decide, well, it's a pain to add HVAC so I just won't. Sorry, code will require it. And so may your homeowners insurance. Wishful thinking is no substitute for facing reality. Many fixed costs associated with a project are not a function of the physical size of the addition. You pay the same for an architect and engineer stamp for a 12 x 12 room as a 10 x 8 room. Same with every trade and inspection. The physical components are the variable costs that increase or decrease with square footage.

Maybe you should find out more.

Get a second and third bid.

Then if they are all in the same ballpark, find out what you CAN do for the $ you want to spend, and don't kid yourself that anything will ever cost less than they say. It is usually more.

Trebuchet....yes, that's what I've decided. Maybe he doesn't want to do just a small addition. Maybe he's already busy. Maybe he 's tired of working on this style of house (it's virtually identical to the neighbor's where he's been working off and on for years.)

Juliekcmo: I was shorthanding. I know I can't just decide not to put HVAC in. But I also know that I don't HAVE to install AC in a small bathrooom....there are thousands of houses in my city with NO air conditioning. Yes, I'll need heat...but radiant floor hear or an electric baseboard will do just fine to provide heat in this small, little used bathroom. And no, that's not just my opinion, it was planned that way by the contractors who did the work on the kitchen below. And codes haven't changed that much...if at all...in my city in 3 years to mean that the plumbing and electric installed 3 years ago would be out of compliance now.

And of course, I'm getting other bids. I would in any case...but I'm certainly not going to just hire the $56,500 guy OR drop the project thinking his bid had to be on the money.

Moreover, I've done enough renovating both at this house and a previous one to know that there are all kinds of things that go into the final costs...what's behind or what's NOT behind walls in an old house, not the least of them. But if any one of the other three bids in progress comes in any where NEAR $56,500 plus windows, tile, fixtures, etc...I'll eat my hat.

What no one responding to this post actually knows are the details of the project that may greatly affect the price.

I would surmise that a top-of-the-line 55 s/f three-fixture bathroom in our service area would probably fetch no more than $35-40K, including a generous allowance for fixtures and accessories. But, that 's this area. Where you live the cost of labor may be much higher.

In addition, there may be one or more factors included in the estimate that have not been disclosed here, or which you may not even know about.

Several years ago we bid a kitchen in a pre-war condominium at about twice the cost of the bid from the local Big Box Lumber Store. Since we are normally quite competitive with Big Box, even though we use only custom cabinetry, the bid naturally raised some questions in our customer's mind. So she, wisely, asked us why the large difference. So I asked her in return three questions:

(1) Did Big Box know that all of her kitchen walls were brick and masonry -- not wood stud frame -- under plaster and that it will be, therefor, very time consuming to install the cabinets using masonry anchors?

(2) Did Big Box understand that she lived on the 4th floor of a building that did not have a freight elevator nor adequate parking for a delivery truck, so every cabinet, board and box of tile would have to be hand-carried in from the street and up a busy passenger elevator, not to mention tools and equipment?

(3) Did Big Box know that since her walls were masonry, all of the additional electrical would have to be run in conduit, and all the additional plumbing would have to be surface mounted with extraordinary measures taken to hide the conduit and piping behind the cabinets or false walls?

The answer was No, No, and No. So I suggested she let Big Box know the facts, and have them redo their estimate -- which they did, and flatly refused the job.

I don't know if the amenities and features you have specified for the project are worth the quoted price, or if the addition requires something like brick facing, which would dramatically up the price. What's the roofing: composite, Spanish tile, standing seam? I know you want a subway tile wainscot, which, if you choose good quality tile, might run as high as $40.00 s/f just for materials. You have not said, but I suspect you also specified tile walls above the bath and a combination bathtub/shower. Looks like about $8,000 -10,000 for tile alone, with labor. But, I don't know for sure.

The fact is, I don't have enough information to judge whether the estimate is high or not. And, despite their apparent belief to the contrary, neither does anyone else who has replied to this post. All I can say is that it appears high and justifies follow up questioning to find out why it is so high.

Obviously,the person to whom the questions should be directed is the bidder, not the good people who give their time here to answer questions posted on this forum. They don't have enough information to give you an answer that's worth more than a fart in a high wind.

Ask the contractor. If you don't find the answers satisfactory, get more estimates. I'm very certain you will find this approach more productive than moaning and groaning about the estimate here.

I am additionally curious about the bid. Obviously it was of the nature of "I will build a bathroom for $xx,xxx.xx". If there was any detail in the bid, you are not sharing it.

Suppose you walked into a new car dealership and said "I want to buy a new car", and the salesman responds, "I will sell you a new car for $20,000." Would you accept the deal? If you did, you would be an idiot.

What did you just buy: a Cadillac or a Yugo? You don't know. As long as the dealer delivers a new car, you are stuck with the price, and if he delivers the clunker that no one else wants because it was rated lower than "time-bomb-waiting to-explode" by Consumer Reports, you are getting just what you deserve.

Yet many people buy bathrooms, kitchens, additions and so on --very big ticket items -- just this way. A little discussion in which you tell the contractor what you have in mind, and he gives you a price. He's thinking fiberglass pre-fab shower with curtain and builder grade fixtures in white and chrome; you're thinking custom tile shower, frame-less glass enclosure, fixtures in hot pink, top line pewter multi-head shower tower with electronic temperature and volume control that can be preset for each user.

Obviously, there's going to be a problem somewhere down the road.

Get a detailed estimate, in writing, showing exactly what the builder will build and including all of his assumptions -- and there will be some. Then you can ascertain if he is proposing to build what you actually want, not what he assumes you want.

Our bathroom estimates typically run several single-spaced pages and include the make, model, and finish of every fixture and accessory we are to install, the tile to be used, even the grout and paint color. Every step we will take from initial demolition to final clean up is detailed and priced. That way you can judge whether you think the price for a 42" subway tile wainscot is actually worth it, and make adjustments accordingly. Maybe a less expensive tile would better fit your budget. Or, maybe skip the wainscot.

Buy an addition, or any big remodeling project just like you would buy a new car. Do the research, know what you want and have it detailed in writing. If an addition needs plans, have them drawn up.

Check the BBB, find out if a contractor is licensed and has the required insurances -- in fact, ask him to attach copies of both documents to the estimate. The fact that Mary Jan down the street was happy with his work building a deck does not mean he knows how to build a bathroom. Get references from previous bathroom jobs, not decks, patios or rec-room additions.

Good luck with your project.

OldTime Carpenter, and others: Thanks for your feedback. It seems clear that most folks aren't reading the thread or aren't noticing what I've already said. I HAVE done the research. I have specified exactly what I want to contractors providing me estimates. (Moreover, I am providing the things which you note can be either cheap or expensive, and they are NOT included in the $56,500 bid.)

I AM getting other bids. I do know what is involved in this addition. And it is not a $56,000 plus tile, fixtures, faucets, flooring and windows job!

The only thing about this job that is "difficult" at all, is that the tub is cast iron and will need to be hoisted up to the second floor before the room is enclosed. Once there, however, it can be stored in the adjacent bedroom until installed, Other than that there is NOTHING about this job that is even mildly exceptional. It is three outside walls (two 5' walls, one 11" wall) going up on top of three walls that are wood framed with vinyl siding on them. It will have vinyl siding on it. It is attaching to a wood framed wall..not masonry. The roof will be one of those membrane, flat roofs that you can walk on. (just like what's on the addition below it now...and I know how much THAT cost.) The plumbing and electric lines sufficient for what I want are ALREADY in place. They were run to the ceiling of the kitchen addition built three years ago, just below where the bathroom will be. They aren't outdated, out of code or inadequate. Everything I am asking for now was anticipated and accommodated before the kitchen addition was finished off three years ago. The electrical panel is sufficient. The plumbing is roughed in to the right place. I have shown the contractors the actual toilet, tub and sink I intend to use. They are sitting in my basement. I have shown them the tile I intend to use on walls and floor (simple American Olean white subway with a chair rail around the wainscotting.) I have specified a small niche in the shower, tiled, with a marble shelf. I have purchased the marble for the shelf. I have specified types and placement for lighting (which I will buy...not in the estimate they're giving me). I have specified a shower curtain NOT a glass enclosure. I have specified that the tub/shower will have a standard head, a handheld on a sliding bar, a tub spout and a four-port diverter, and I have told the contractor I will provide them...and even that they will be from Symmons.) I have drawn them to scale plans of windows and window placements and specified that the windows be Anderson 400 series, aluminum clad to match those in the kitchen below the new bath (and again, the window themselves are not in his bid). I have specified that I want Thermosoft heating in the floor. (The guys there were FANTASTIC helping fix a kitchen floor disaster when the wires were inadvertently cut).

Again, there is NOTHING complicated about this addition and I have specified every detail I can imagine. $56,600 makes NO sense. I live in Baltimore. Labor there is more than it is in many more rural areas and much of the central or southern U.S. , , but much less than it is in, for example, NYC, WAshington, DC, Boston or other east coast cities.

Next week, I'll have other bids in. I'll keep you posted.

We've done a lot of building and I feel $1,000 a square foot is ridiculous. We handled the build on this house ourselves because we got tired of dealing with attitudes, incompetence, etc.

We did finally meet a wonderful local contractor to do "small" jobs for us, who takes pride in his work and doesn't gouge us. We both sit down and talk about what he needs to earn to stay comfortably in business to do a particular job, and what we feel is fair. Generally we offer him more than what he asks for because he takes pride in his work, doesn't stress us, and stands behind what he does. $1,000 a square foot is gouging.

We ran across the same thing when building a barn. We are quite experienced with what materials cost and the building process itself since we do most things ourselves. However, a person gets tired and too many things going on to do it all ourselves these days. Some of the pricing was so exorbitant we just laughed. Some people showed up half drunk to give us an estimate. Many do poor work. We bought the materials ourselves and hired local reputable people to build it.

Keep looking. It's stressful but eventually you will find the right person, with a good attitude and work ethic, but it's not easy these days. I'm just blown away by the amount of people in construction business who have an entitlement attitude. YOU are the employer. YOU are paying the paycheck. Don't settle. Give your work to someone who deserves it.

Fascinating thread. Hoping the OP comes back and reports.

sandy 808:

I charged $2,900.00 for 6 hours of work last month.

Well, there was the 15 hour drive each way, the $500.00 in gas, a hotel bill, meals, etc.

An architect in a retail store project changed an appliance location and in doing so violated the Americans with Disability Act. He will be heavily penalized financially if the store doesn't open on time. I made alterations that put him back in compliance on time, nor did I force him to sign a contract.

I guess "gouging" is relative.

At 36 hours with $500 in expenses, you only charged $66 per hour. Presumably the store owner could have hired someone local for 6 hours instead of 36 plus expenses had they wanted to. That's not gouging. Gouging would be if he called you in a panic and even though you normally charge $66 an hour you decided to charge $200 per hour because he was in a pickle.

Some jobs just cost more than others because they are more of pain to do than others. Some contractors will price a job really high because they don't want to deal with that pita. And if someone goes for it, that extra goes a long way towards dealing with the additional issues.

Hey Melissa - why are you even talking to a contractor?

With your wealth of knowledge, research, war chest of supplies on hand, and gumption - you should be able to manage a run of the mill bathroom project no sweat .

FYI - in the last three years your electrical is almost certainly out of compliance. Are your outlets tamper proof ? Weren't required/enforced in many place 3 years ago, but are mandatory now everywhere. Ditto with arc fault breakers for bedrooms.

So, just be careful how CERTAIN you are about things, ok ?

To me, It seems a little bit high, but not much! When you consider that an average bathroom gut and remodel costs $10-$20K, that doesn't seem out of line, being an addition.

Check out the cost vs. value here for your area in Baltimore. Says $67K average for an upscale remodel and $34K average for a basic bathroom addition. You are somewhere in between. And remember....just because it's small doesn't mean squat. They still need to drive there, unload tools and manage the site just like if your bathroom was 2X bigger. The labor probably doesn't change proportionately. For the materials, yes...but not as much with labor.

You should get a couple more estimates and then if they come out Less $$$, then question why he's higher? I agree with the previous poster, you must make sure apples-to-apples.

Or tell him it's more than you thought it would be and ask him to go over it with you and show you places where you might be able to cut.

Here is the link to the cost vs value for your area, done every year by Remodeling Magazine.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cost vs Value - Baltimore (S.Atlantic)

Melissastar, I know it is a busy time of year, but please remember to come back and let us know about the other bids when you have time.

Several of you asked me to follow up when I got alternative bids. Still working on nailing down another one or two, but I've now got one official bid from a well-regarded contractor. He's done work for multiple people I know AND was referred by my attorney.

His bid for the same job that the other guy wanted $56,000 for?
Exactly HALF that...$28,000. And that's for a detailed bid. It's still a bit pricier than I'd hoped, given that I'm providing the fixtures...faucets, lighting, mirror, toilet, tub, sink, etc...AND the tile for floor and walls. But still, it's at least a price that makes some sense.

Still pondering what was in the other guy's mind when he quoted $56K. Just didn't want the job? Does he REALLY get that much from other people? What?

Will post again when I get additional bids.

"Still pondering what was in the other guy's mind when he quoted $56K. Just didn't want the job? Does he REALLY get that much from other people? What? "

Some guys roll the dice and take a chance, He might have figured that since he was working on your neighbors house that he had the job locked up, so he gave you a pie in the sky bid.

Or he might not have wanted the job, or might have wanted it but he might be booked out too far to do it, so he bid a price where he could have shaved a nice bit off the top and then handed it over to another crew.

Or he night have simply mis-bid it.

Or who knows?

It does happen. I built my house myself. A few years after I built, I was ready for the garage, but I didn't want to build it myself. I was going to sub it out. Two-car garage, 1/2 bath, mud room. Nothing fancy. No tricky excavation, no site issues.

$279k was the bid.

I crossed out the "2". He got up, left, and that was that.

I ran into the bidder quite a while later and asked him what was up with that price. He said something along the lines of "you have a nice house so I thought you might go for it."

Some builders are good. Some are bad. A few are good businessmen, most are not.

A few years ago we had long involved discussions with a "well-regarded" contractor to build our house. We discussed our budget extensively, and it looked good to go. But when the final estimate came in, it was enormously inflated. We refused. Some time later, we found out the builder was being offered a million dollar contract on a fast track, with a bonus on timely completion. That house was featured in a local magazine.

This guy chose to blow off our little house so he could make more money and get a little free advertising. But he didn't have the guts to tell us the truth. Since then every time a contractor doesn't call back, or even bother to finish a bid, or gives a crazy bid, I just write him off. I refuse to waste time with people who waste my time.

Imo, for contractors, it's always about the money. Always.

I really don't see what the fuss is about. For any major project, it's always good to get two or three quotes. If one quote is a significant outlier on the very high side, all that means is that the contractor doesn't want your job, for whatever reason, at the normal price. He won't tell you, "I don't want your job". Why should he turn down business? He does want your job - at the inflated price. No need to take it personal. Look at it simply as a business transaction.

This is as old as the sun. Back in 1970, my dad replaced the heating system in the family house and got 3 quotes, all from reputable heating contractors. Two quotes were very close but the third was almost 3 times at much. When that contractor left, my mom asked my dad the same question - how can he charge 3 x as much? My dad responded, "He doesn't want the job."

Just signed the contract for $29,000. I got that bid, a bid for $36K, a bid for $28 K and the first bid for $56K. Clearly the $56K guy just didn't want the job...or didn't want it unless he was paid exorbitantly.
The $28K and $29K bids were still a bit higher than I had hoped given the modest nature of the job and the fact that I am providing all tile and fixtures. But they at least make sense. In fact, even the $36K bid isn't completely out of whack. I sure am glad to know that this little job really didn't warrant a $56K pricetag!

I chatted with a contractor recently about these type of higher bids. He feels his prices are fair. He doesn't want to be known as the cheap guy. Nor does he want to be known as the pricey guy. In addition, sometimes they run into a homeowner that they know is going to be difficult to work with - so they'd rather not have the job.

In my own line of business, I can relate to that. I was asked to bid ballpark on a service job and I let them know if I had to deal with one particular individual as the site rep, the price would be double. He was that difficult. And the client knew it, because they laughed and pretty much agreed with my statement - and they knew I wasn't really joking.

I'm not saying Melissa is a difficult customer, because I don't know her. But sometimes they just don't want the job.

lol Diva! My installers say they charge double if the homeowner is an engineer! They're joking....but I'm sure they add a little something.

Kompy, it's a pain and suffering factor that is multiplied exponentially depending on how much pain is involved. :-) Added to every line item!

That link you provided is very interesting. Check out the Honolulu prices. Unfortunately the web site doesn't break it down by square footage, but I'm not surprised by the pricing. It falls in line with some quotes we have requested.