Actually, it's a little more than just adding one row. They've got to remove the bujllnose, first. WITHOUT ruining the cement board behind it, and then it looks like a full row and a piece to be installed. At most, it would be about 150.00- 200.00. That said, if it were me, and it were a misunderstanding as you say, and there was enough tile, thinset, and grout to do it, I wouldn't charge a dime.

Just out of curiosity, what did they do for $5K?

Bill, they did THIS. We got majorly ripped off by these people and I regret every minute of it. We probably could have flown you in, put you up in a hotel to do the entire job, gotten a way better job out of it and still had money left over!!!

BTW Bill, for the extra row of tile for this bath, they wanted around $1100 (NOT an extra "0". The other bath isn't even laid yet that needs the extra row and they wanted $1260 for that one!!

I'd say it's time to find someone else, both to finish this one off and do the other one. That's not just ludicrous, it's legal grand larceny. That's ceramic, correct?

Yes. That is ceramic. You have no idea how much these people have overcharged us on everything.

This was their first attempt at this bathroom which we made them tear out:

And don't even get me started on the tiny laundry room for $1900 that used $1/sq. foot tile.

We can't find someone else because the jobs are half done and our proposal was signed without any detail so we don't know how much we paid for labor and how much for materials or how to figure out what we owe and what we shouldn't have to pay for. We don't want to end up in court.

We're not going to have them do the rest of this bathroom, we are going to bring in someone else. Unfortunately, we still have a $3200 kitchen backsplash, a $2400 hall mural they didn't line up the pattern on, a a $13,000 master bathroom (with ceramic tile), and a $7000 bathroom that's in this state:

$2400 mural (see how the patterns don't line up):

Once they are OUT of our house, I'm going to post reviews everywhere and detail what happened.

Are you talking about the corners on that mural? If so, it is not possible to get that design to turn a corner and have the design match up. It might have been possible to get better corners, but that is hard to say without actually experimenting with the tile. The bottom right corner actually looks pretty good to me as far as getting the pattern to look like it continues around the corner.

No. We know the corners won't line up right. There are other areas where the tile is off. There's a repeating pattern that they missed. We had extra tiles and we laid them down over the top to show how the tiles are actually supposed to line up and the way they have the edges is wrong. It may be hard to see from this picture because I don't have a closeup.

I'll tell you-- I don't care if it was done perfectly. 2400.00????? FOR THAT???? That's MAYBE 2-300.00 worth of work!!

As for the 3200.00 backsplash, that damn thing better cook for you!! I've got a reputation for custom backsplashes, and the MOST I've ever gotten for one (and this was intricate ewith all kinds of inlays and pattern changes) was 1500.00!

Same on the master and other bathrooms. This is turning my stomach. Is your master bath already done?

Master bath:

The kitchen backsplash is along 2 walls. It is just tumbled marble subway tiles and a mural from Stone Impressions. That's all. One wall is 15 ft, the other wall is 6.

I SO wish I had found this forum before we hired these people. Like I said, we really could have hired you, flown you in and put you up for the duration of the job and had money left over :(

Well, I know how he got his price on the backsplash-- 21 linear feet of backsplash times 18" in height comes out at 31 1/2 (32) sq. ft. He charged you 100 dollars a foot for that thing. Unless he's putting together a mosaic mural a piece at a time, that's about the most ridiculouis price I've ever heard.

I don't think I could handle knowing the specs on the other areas. Wow. Just wow.

I know. The worst part is, they are terrible and we've had to fight with them every step of the way. They charged these prices and then when it came time to lay tile, in the rooms where the patterns and stuff are, they wanted ME to come and lay the tile in patterns on the floor and got all upset when I would not do that and, at one point, sent an email saying they were pulling out of the job until I came to do that. I did insist on that not being the way this was done, but it was a fight. I had made pictures to show how I wanted things done in photoshop and they couldn't even translate those into patterns, they really felt it was appropriate to decide where the tiles should go by me coming in there and eyeballing the way a pattern should look on the floor. Ummm, I don't think so!

These people are crooks and liars and I'll be letting everyone know that as soon as I can get them out of my house! We had no idea how much this was supposed to cost and we trusted these people because our builder sent us to them and the other place we went to told me my order was "too complicated to even quote" so I just assumed that this cost was normal.

The sad part is, if they weren't rude and inept, I would not have even complained about the price.

Our bill is broken out in materials and then labor. We did all marble and granite tiles, not ceramic, even though that is what the labor bill says. I do not know which is harder to lay. We did a lot of patterns and cuts, but no murals. I don't have pictures of all of it at the moment, but here is one example.

This was the total labor bill for all rooms, but not the backsplash.

LABOR QUANTITY PRICE TOTAL
(1) Ceramic Pattern --, 360.00 SqFt $3.00 $1,080.00
(2) Ceramic -Specialty --, 30.00 SqFt $3.50 $105.00
(3) Underlay Ceramic Durock --, 560.00 SqFt $1.00 $560.00
(4) Ceramic -Specialty --, 180.00 SqFt $3.50 $630.00
(5) Ceramic -Specialty --, 50.00 SqFt $3.50 $175.00
(6) Ceramic Wall --, 70.00 SqFt $6.00 $420.00
(7) Ceramic -Specialty --, 60.00 SqFt $3.50 $210.00
(14) Shower Pan Small --, 1.00 Each $400.00 $400.00
(15) Shower Curb --, 1.00 Each $25.00 $25.00
(16) Underlay Ceramic Propannel --, 105.00 SqFt $1.50 $157.50
(17) Shower Curb --, 1.00 Each $25.00
(21) Miscellaneous --, 200.00 Each $0.25 $50.00
Labor Subtotal: $3,837.50

IF THAT JERK HAS NO IDEA HOW TO LAY OUT THE TILE HE'S SUPPOSED TO INSTALL HE HAS NO RIGHT SELLING HIS SERVICES AS A TILE INSTALLER, MUCH LESS CHARGING THE MONEY HE DOES.

Did you hire him directly?

It's not just a guy, it's a store that sells the tile and the installation. Their website indicates they have been in business for 75 years, and they are a "family run" business and members of the HBA and SEEMED to be honest and good people. They were very helpful to us until we actually got to installation.

Our builder gave us two places to go to, this place and another. The other place said our order was too complicated to quote. We thought these people were somewhat expensive but we had no idea HOW expensive they really are in relation to what things should have cost. At the time, we thought the price seemed reasonable given the reaction of the other place and, the fact that we don't know much about tiles. We also didn't want to start all over with another place because we spent a long time picking everything out, so we went with them.

I did get very upset and insist that the tiles not be done based on me placing tiles. So now I'm getting not-very-detailed sketches (after waiting an exorbitant amount of time for each). The sketches at least help to determine where things will go (no artistry or thought goes into placing, mind you), which is not that helpful when they then cannot lay the pattern straight. They also do things like lay 4 tiles with the exact same pattern in the exact same direction right in a row (we're making them fix that), and there is at least one tile in our laundry room (yes, the $1900 laundry room) that is not even with the surrounding tiles but we aren't even making an issue out of that because we are trying to pick our battles.

They, of course, admit responsibility for NOTHING and they call their imperfect installations "impeccable" and then when we force a meeting over at the house, subsequently admit that they installed a defective tile in their "impeccable" installation. They also won't admit that the pattern is not straight even though we got out a spare tile and SHOWED them how it should have looked.

There are SO MANY dishonest and stupid things they did, it would be hard for me to list them all. Like ordering 5000 sq. feet of wood floors without confirming that we liked the color and then trying to stick us w/ a $6000 restocking fee when we didn't like the color. We then HAD to order within a certain line from them to avoid the restocking fee. Somehow, they magically charged us MORE than the price on the back of the wood when we did that (allegedly because the price of wood is going up). We also asked them repeatedly if the wood was hard enough since we have dogs and they said "yes, it's perfect, it's perfect." It's American Cherry. It is NOT hard enough. We knew that and we asked them "Well, we heard Brazilian Cherry was hard," and they told us the Brazilian cherry was TOO hard. It was the most stupid and ridiculous thing we had ever heard, but we had no choice but to get the cherry because of the way they handled the wood order, which left us with like 8 choices.

We also pulled our granite business from them because we saw a TERRIBLE seam they did and the ones in the showroom were terrible and I kept asking for assurances they would be right and getting ignored and ignored until I FINALLY said that if it was not right when they installed it, we'd paid someone to correct it and deduct it from the cost they were charging us. All of a sudden, they weren't sure they could do the seam! Hmm... big surprise. About a week after we pulled the granite business, they emailed our builder and told him THEY didn't want to do our granite because I was too picky because I wanted my $2400 tile mural straight!!!!

Working with these people is the single worst business transaction/retail experience I have ever had in my entire life and I wish every day we had never ever met them. Like I said, I'll be posting their name and full details and sharing my experience on every review site I can find. I just want to wait until they are OUT of my house first.

Are the people who installed your tile part of the store, or are they paid employees, or are they subcontractors?

One way or the other, with what you've just posted here, I'
d strongly suggest you find an attorney well versed in construction disputes. Sounds to me like you may have a good case for getting alot of your money back.

The people who installed our tile were sent by the store. I assume they are employees of the store. Apparently, they sent the best people they have so God help those who get the worst people!

Unfortunately, our contract is very vague, and I don't believe we have any grounds to sue (I'm a non-practicing attorney myself actually). They have ultimately done everything specified in the contract, just after fighting and doing it in the most stupid way possible and you can't sue for stupid that I know of. If they don't fix the mural pattern, I've already informed them I'm getting someone else to do it and deducting the cost from what we owe and they can take me to court over it if they want to.

I'm afraid we were stupid on this to sign the contract the way it is, and my only recourse will be sharing with the world how dishonest and inept these people are.

I now believe they priced things the way they did in order to make it impossible for us to determine what we were actually being charged for things, otherwise we would not have gone with them. For instance, here is their "proposal" which is what we signed for this job (in italics):

Powder Room
Floor: 12x12 Walnut travertine over Ditra Mat subfloor.
Total Cost: $850.00

Front Entry
Floor: 3x12 Stone Impressions Warm Filigree border with with 6x6 Stone Impressions Colorwash tile laid in a checkerboard pattern.
Total Cost: $2,400.00

Master Bathroom
Floor: 12x12 Ontario Series laid in a straight pattern with 8-4x4 groupings of Poseidon Mosaics in clipped corners.
Shower Floor: Sumba Pebbles.
Tub Deck and Face: 12x12 Ontario Series with Dune Poseidon mosaics as the top face of the tub deck step. Top of tub deck to be 12x12 Ontario with a band of Sumba Pebbles around the tub.
Walls: 12x12 Ontario Series laid in a straight pattern with 2 rows of mosaics as accent bands. Walls are figured to be full height in shower and walls behind tub and toilet. No Stone Impressions mural in shower area.
We have included building an "invisible" shower niche and installing tile over the drain body.
We have included Ditra Mat subfloor as well as Kerdi Board in the shower area and cement board on the tub steps and deck.
Total Cost: $13,700.00

Guest Bathroom
Floor: Stone Impressions Carnation Blue border with 13x13 Walnut travertine laid on the diagonal with clipped corners and 10 Stone Impressions 2x2 Patience dots inserted in clips. Two inserts with 2 4x4 Color Wash Ocean and 2 4x4 Color Wash Grass with a 2x2 Patience dot inserted in the middle are also included.
Tub Deck Face: 6x6 walnut travertine laid in a straight pattern.
Tub Surround: Approximately 6� high off of tub. One 3x6 Stone Impressions Carnation Blue deco strip with 6x6 Walnut travertine laid on the diagonal with 8 6x6 Stone Impressions Patience decos inserted.
We have included Ditra Mat subfloor as well as Kerdi board in the tub surround. Tub deck face to be drywall by others.
Total Cost: $7,000.00

To delete the Stone Impressions Carnation Blue border on the floor deduct: - $750.00

Jack and Jill Bathroom
Floor: 12x12 Catarina Coliseum Series laid straight
Tub Deck Face: 12x12 Catarina Coliseum cut to 6x6 with 2 6x6 decos installed but not furnish by XXX
Tub Surround: 12x12 Catarina Coliseum cut to 6x6 with glass mural installed but not furnished by XXX.
We have included Ditra Mat subfloor as well as Kerdi board in the tub surround. Tub deck face is to be drywall by others.
Total Cost: $5,000.00

The ended up being unable to cut these tiles, so we got a discount. However, they had told us we were paying $500 for them to cut the tiles, but then when they couldn't cut them, they only deducted $300. Apparently, we were supposed to pay them $200 for THINKING about cutting the tiles for us. This is one issue I am currently insisting be corrected.

This is the entire extent of what we have for this job, plus some photoshops I gave them that they were SUPPOSED to be making the pattern from.

Then, they'd do things like this: we were supposed to have a granite fireplace fabricated from slabs we already had purchased. They quoted $750 which I thought was high for fabrication only for a straight fireplace (no curves). A week after we got into our first major fight, when they sent an updated proposal, they jumped the price on that fireplace to $1500 FOR NO REASON. When I asked why, they claimed they had forgotten the hearth in the original. I said forget it, I'd find someone else and I got a quote from someone BETTER for $656. Less than their FIRST estimate, much less their second $1500 cost!!!!

Forgot to add, they apparently did not MEASURE anything before ordering tile because when it came time to install the pattern I'd wanted in the guest bath, there was not even space to do anything close to that pattern. I guess he just estimated based on rough photoshop drawings how much tile to order, at least that's what appeared to have happened. And then the house is built and its time to lay tile and all of a sudden it becomes clear that there wasn't space to do what I wanted. Sorry, I didn't know that. I am not a TILE STORE. If I knew how to size, measure and lay my own tile, I'd be a tile layer. Heck, I'm thinking of quitting my job to become one because apparently you can get paid $100 per tile and don't even have to know what you are doing or do it well!

Ug. Are you sure you aren't unknowingly participating in some new reality TV show where the goodwill of homeowners is tested for sport?

And I shouldn't mention it because it never bothers anyone but me but if you put two of the same pattern tiles next to each other, is it THAT hard to turn one so the patterns isn't obviously repeated?

Fori, I certainly hope that's the case and we get a nice prize at the end for not committing any felonies during this process. Like that old show Boiling Point maybe. How far can they push us before we crack.

And your point about the tile also bothers me. We're making them change 4 of the "marble" tiles in the 2nd version of that white bathroom because they did exactly that. 4 tiles in the same pattern right in a row.

The quality of work shown in several of your photos is entry-level. From tile orientation to quality of installation, it looks thoughtless.

It was either done by an apathetic installer, or if the installer did care, the installer was a caring yet clueless individual.

The pricing on the change orders is ridiculous, more so if it was a he-said, she-said "miscommunication". For the price points in your contract I'd change anything and everything for no additional charge. Plus I'd wash your car, do the laundry, walk your dog, bathe your kids, and have dinner ready for you when you got home from work.

The overall pricing is amazing considering several of your tile selections are fairly inexpensive. There has to be layer upon layer of mark-up.

Your so deep into this, yet you still have so far to go before you're out. Your cost out of pocket is well above small claims court, you're more in the realm of full-fledged civil court with representation. Your contract or proposal is quite vague, really just a list and offers you no leverage at all.

All I can really offer are my condolences.

Thanks. I am very upset but there's nothing we can do about it now. Going to court is probably only going to cost us more.

I'm just going to insist that every other tile laid in this house be perfect, I am going to make sure we see all invoices before they are paid so we can make sure they don't steal any more from us, and I'm going to share my opinion with everyone I know and online and hopefully prevent at least a few others from being cheated and having to deal with these people.

It's only money and while it is annoying, I'm not going to let their behavior cause me any more stress. They can have the satisfaction of knowing they ripped us off and we'll have the satisfaction of knowing we are honest people with integrity, while they never will be.

Is the contract between the GC and the tile folks, and the tile people are his subs? Or is as I suspect the contract is between you and the tile people, and does not involve the GC in any written form? Because if it is the latter, then you are legally acting as the GC on the job.

This has a lot more potential for disaster for other trades issues if that is the case. It makes you legally responsible for supervising the subs, their design creation, and ensuring quality control of all of the jobs that you employed subs directly. The bigger point is that it relieves the GC of any responsibility of either supervising them, or being financially responsible if they screw up and damage something. They aren't his employees, so it's not his problem. If they mess up the correct water tightness of your shower, it's your problem, because they are your subs. Don't think that because you have a good relationship with your builder that if it comes down to these guys causing thousands of dollars of damage that he won't throw you under the bus and refuse to have his insurance cover it. You'd better check into building insurance for yourself right now!

You can definately separate labor from materials on this job. As the tile store's employer, you ask them for a bill of materials. They have a record of this. You want that record. That's the first step in separating yourself from them. You need not endure their poor quality work for the remainder of the project. You simply assume the role you are already cast in of direct superviser and dog their every step like they are toddlers loose in an unchildproofed house. Install webcams if you can't be there in person. They are cheap enough.

Once you have the bill of materials, you document the list of miscommunication in writing, and have your builder and you sign that as a witness, and approach them about it. Tell them that since there have been so many miscommunications on the job, you want written communication about every single thing they do from now on, including the tile layouts. You want those in a detailed design with them and you signing off on the diagram before they touch the job. If they begin the job without your written OK, then they have to tear everything until they do get your written approval. You have the webcams, and you will be watching them. You expect to hear from them twice a day by email with a written summary and picture documentation of what they have done. And you put this in writing and make them sign. If they don't sign, they forfeit any further payments and you will find another contractor. (You do have them on a schedule of payments designed around certain completion milestones, correct?)

They either submit to the intense babysitting that they need or they stop work, and you stop paying them.

The contract is between the GC and the tile people. His name is on the contract, and he pays them, not us.

I just sent over an email making clear that we want a detailed accounting of all invoices thus far and that no further invoices are to be paid until we 1) approve the work and 2) approve the invoice and make sure the price has not been altered in any way.

I wish we were done with them so much! They have to finish the master bath, do the guest bathroom, do the dog shower, fix the hall mural and do the kitchen backsplash. They have so far done the jack and jill (twice and still not right), the laundry rooms, the mud room and the powder room. They had to replace the entire Jack & Jill, remove and replace several tiles in the powder room and we're still fighting over the foyer. The laundry room has an uneven tile but we aren't even fighting that. So, they are 1/5 for actually doing things right. Not a good sign.

We currently have a policy in place that they MUST send drawings before thay lay any more tiles. Now, I guess we need to make clear that first they must send drawings for approval, then they need to lay out the files for approval to make sure they execute the drawings correctly. So, three stages of approval

I don't know how my GC is paying them. We have a schedule of payments to the builder, but I don't know what his arrangement is with the tile store. But my last email just made clear that we must approve all invoices before they are paid.

Your GC should FIRE them. That's his role as the supervisor of your build and as the quality control manager. They have made enough mistakes that they should no longer be allowed on the jobsite. He should stop trying to be a nice guy and be the hardass he's getting paid (a helluva lot) to be. Boot them. NOW. You live somewhere that some "persuaders" of the waste management variety ought to be able to tell them to go away and be happy with what they've already been paid. ;) Heck, I'd have them kneecapped and make them return their fees! ;)

Why would your GC continue working with this firm as long as he has? I'm sure you must have communicated your dissatisfaction with him. Is your GC marking up the already outrageous prices charged by the people doing the tiling?

No our GC is not marking up anything.
The reason we are still working with them is because no one wants to end up in court. Because of the way in which these people did the contract and the project being half done, we're afraid that is where it is going to end up if we try to get rid of these people now. Like, how much do we pay them for material they ordered? For material they used in that upstairs guest bath that is wrong that has to be completely relaid? For a half done master bathroom?

Apparently, these people have done many, many jobs for our GC and there have not been problems like this before. We've been inside houses where they did other jobs and things seemed great (although we've subsequently heard from several other people that they had to redo things two and three times to get things right).

The material should be referenced by invoices. They should be able to produce them and you should be able to double check them with the price per square foot times the square footage ordered. I would insist on all material invoices, do whatever due diligence is needed to confirm their accuracy, pay them and let them go. I don't think they want to end up in court any more than you do - court is expensive. You have pictures. I would get rid of them, and if it meant I had to pay some extra to do so, I would. I would think whoever you hire next would be less expensive and you would make up any overage there . . . It is not worth the headaches or the potential problems down the road.

1
The contract is between the GC and the tile people. His name is on the contract, and he pays them, not us

2
No our GC is not marking up anything.

= equals

3
He is getting paid behind the scenes. This is legal, lawful, permissible.

I think the best suggestion in the whole thread was Holly's suggestion to have them kneecapped! LOL!

The prices are robbery. For that amount, I'd expect custom mosaic work to the level of the baths of Pompeii. Something truly artsy and spectacular. You're getting I-95 truckstop quality work instead. They are in over their head.

I know you like him, but there is something not quite right here in the fact that your GC hasn't already addressed the issue permanently. He is failing in his primary role if he does not. If he is the one paying them, then it's HIS problem to sort out the materials from labor here.

You shouldn't even know there's an issue with their contract. You shouldn't have even seen the contract between the two. It doesn't involve you. Your role is to insist on the quality of work that your fee should be providing. His role is to provide that quality by selecting the appropriate subcontractors and supervising their work.

Even if he has to eat some fees here or take a loss by severing the relationship with this sub, it's HIS problem that he agreed to the vague contract. NOT YOUR PROBLEM! He needs to cut his losses with the subs and move on. If he doesn't do that, then he is either getting kickbacks from them or he is related to them. There is some other hidden motivation to keep them. It's NOT a "court thing" at all. He has the right and obligation to set the quality standard of the work that the sub provides, and if the sub doesn't provide to that standard, it's his job to get rid of them, even if it costs him. He is the GC and you pay him for the headache resolution. You don't keep people who screw up and cost you money---unless they aren't really costing him money.

I realize that it would be very complicated to fire these people and settle up with them, but are they even capable of doing this tiling to your satisfaction?

I thought you had hired them.

While the heartache is yours, the trouble is the GC's.

But I understand. It's a mess. An expensive mess. If the GC is building your house and the tile is a single component within the house, then you have a lot more leverage. Financial and legal. Essentially, there's a bigger pool of money from which to have this whole thing rectified.

And the money I'm referring to is the GC's money, not your money. His slice of the pie.

Feet to the fire. His, not yours.

Best, Mongo

I agree with all of what you are saying. Our builder is supposed to be meeting with them today, we will see what resolution comes out of this and I will be more insistent if I have to. To be honest, I'm not sure why there is so much trouble with these people agreeing to make things right with him and I really hope that our interests are being represented properly.
I don't know if they are capable of doing the tile to my satisfaction or not. I've made it clear that we do not authorize any further payment of any money to them until we sign off on both invoices and work. So, I'm not paying for it if it isn't perfect. I've also made it clear that I am not talking to them anymore, so my builder can deal with the headache of fighting this out with these people.

Good deal.

The prices are robbery. For that amount, I'd expect custom mosaic work to the level of the baths of Pompeii. Something truly artsy and spectacular. You're getting I-95 truckstop quality work instead. They are in over their head.

Very well put.

How are things going, beagles?

Nothing much happened for a while because of storms and power outages, but our builder did meet with the tile people now and they are going to take the tiles up to the ceiling and do the extra work in the master bath for free. They're also going to correct the problems I have with the mural pattern. We are going to approve all work going forward before tiles are set, and approve all work before they are paid.

So, we are hopefully moving forward w/ a good compromise. We're still not happy with being overcharged so much, but they now know we are not going to be paying any more and we're going to get a job we are happy with.

So, things are hopefully better... at least for now!