I agree, does this GC have a boss, or is he the highest guy??? We are going to be laying 18 inch on our bathroom floor. Hubby is doing it, he knows I wouldn't be happy if it looks like that.

I don't like that, I am no pro but I would expect them to fix it.

And don't apologize for being particular...we have a whole mess of shoddy workmanship -- in tile, in construction, in EVERYTHING...because customers are too willing to take whatever.

Good luck!
Susan ~

There seems to be no pride in craftmanship today. Too much credence to the bottom line as opposed to leaving a legacy. I would be ashamed to pick up a paycheck for that floor.

Can you get an actual measurement of the lippage there? If it's over a certain number (can't remember, maybe mongo or bill can) it's actually not "industry standard" and you'd be well within your rights to insist on a redo.

Thanks for everyone's input. It's good to know that I'm not quite the ogre I'm feeling like right now.

Flyleft, that's very helpful. Do you know how would I do that?

On a much more positive note, other than the tile job, my bathroom is coming out exactly as I'd hoped! I'll have pictures as soon as I can get in there without tarps all over the place.

"He is now telling me that it's a very tough tile to lay--16", straight edge porcelain--and that's the problem. OK, so what is the solution? And shouldn't they have mentioned this before we bought the tile?"

It is tough to lay large tile. A little more thought and care has to go into the process.

I's say your GC is an ass, but I don't think I can write "ass" on this forum, so I won't write that.

If he thought his tile guy couldn't do a decent job, he should have told you up front and given you the option to 1) proceed or 2) bring in your own tile guy.

If the tile guy didn't think he could do a decent job, he should have passed on the job.

I remember the original thread, but I'm not sure how far the discussion went. I recommend documenting the discussions in writing and by email. Send the GC and certified letter, return receipt requested.

In the letter, explain the problems, and how you'd like it resolved. Give him a certain number of days to reply.

The options are that he fixes it, or you hire someone else to fix it at the GC's expense.

You can also go the route of binding arbitration, if that service is available in your area.

When setting large format tiles, it's often good for the installer to go to a medium-bed mortar instead of traditional thinset. Medium bed mortars tend to slump less under the weight of a large tile, meaning that once the tile is set it won't sink into the mortar.

That's important because with large format tiles you need a thicker bed of mortar under the tile to give you wiggle room to account for deviations in both the floor (uneven) and the tile (warped).

Wider grout joints also allow any lippage to be better disguised.

Lippage tolerance? I'm not certain if there is a standard or not, but I've always used 3/32nds of an inch as a tolerance when discussing these types of installations with the homeowner during the design phase.

Any installer worth his salt, and any GC who claims to be a GC and accepts money for coordinating the work, has to know all aspects of these types of installations. The larger the tile gets, the more difficult the installation.

The tile installer did the installation. The nuts and bolts of the installation, and the final outcome of the intallation, are his responsibility.

The GC hired the installer to set the tile. The GC is responsible for the tiler doing the work to industry standards.

If the GC chooses to not correct a substandard installation, then he's giving you the right to correct it on your own, and you deduct the cost of the repair from the GC's payment.

It's HIS responsibility for things to be done right. He either gets the original tiler to correct it, or he brings in someone else to correct it, with the cost of those repairs being invisible to you.

Or he agrees that you bring in someone on your own to do the repair, with the cost going to him.

Mongo

mongo, I'd heard 1/16" for this size tile (don't remember where, though--wish I could cite it) - I remember because I have a few that are 1/32" (my tiles are 9x18, cut down from 18x18)but they even stand out to me...

When you say "straight-edge tile" do you mean rectified by the factory? Because if so, then they're probably also not warped in one way or another (some of my tiles had a subtle warp or rise in the middle--made installation extra fun)--they're probably quite consistent and exact in their measurements. Which means that the only unevennesses would be installer error.

hmg, if mongo says 3/32", then if you have over 3/32", you have a definite case.

And just because a job is tough doesn't mean it shouldn't be done right--it means that someone who doesn't know how to do it right shouldn't be doing it.

Flyleft,

I don't have a specific reference regarding the 3/32nds of an inch.

ANSI has a "lippage chart" but only for tiles ranging from 1" squares to 6" squares, and the lippage allowed for that size is 1/32nd of an inch.

Honestly, I can't tell you where the 3/32nds tolerance that I use came from for 16" squares. I got that number somewhere several years ago and since then I've always used that in agreements that I've written up just to have a number and to set expectations.

Bill may have a better idea of any true standard since he is a full-time tile setter.

Mongo

I should add a couple more items:

I wrote that ANSI allows 1/32nd lippage for 1" to 6" square tiles. That is for, I think, a 1/8" grout line.

I think if the grout line increases to (I think) 1/4", then the allowed lippage increases to 1/16". Not positive.

Also, there is a "standard" for tile being installed in a "workmanlike manner." Again, I think that there is a viewing distance, something like 6'. If you can see deviations in the installation from a distance of 6' or greater, then it is a deviation.

The idea being that if you pull out a magnifying glass to find imperfections, you need to go get your thrills elsewhere.

Still, to me, a larger part of this particular thread is that the GC implied afterwards that the tiles would look crappy because they were large format tiles.

He needed to 1) bring this to the attention of the homeowner 2) get an installer who has the ability to do a difficult installation like this or 3) pass on the job.

Mongo

All of this information is exactly what I need. Right now the tile setter plans to "see what he can do with grout". We will let him try his best and then take it from there. The GC is an employee a large, highly respected builder in our area. I've been told by one of their own project managers how to proceed within the company to resolve things.

Well, the tile setter added more grout between the uneven tiles. As expected, it did not solve the problem. He'll be coming back on Monday to do something, what I don't know since I haven't spoken directly with him. We did speak with the "sales guy" (who doesn't get a penny until the job is finished) and he, at least, seems to see the issues we have. He brought up the possibility of ripping out all the tiles...not what I want to do but I want the job done right.

Can anyone speak from experience, if you have a floor with several areas of tiles that are not level, can the job possibly be fixed by popping tiles out or are we going to have to start from scratch?

Thanks again!

I don't have a specific reference regarding the 3/32nds of an inch.

ANSI has a "lippage chart" but only for tiles ranging from 1" squares to 6" squares, and the lippage allowed for that size is 1/32nd of an inch.

Actually, I do believe the industry standard for rectified porcelain and natural stone is 1/16". Practically speaking, though, the way to determine if a tile is a "toe stubber" is to slide a credit card across the joint. If it doesn't slide easily from one tile to the next, it's past industry standard.

I have a very similar situation except my tile is 1 sq ft marble tile. We had the same unleveled tile issue and our GC says it because its a natural stone. He told me if I had it polished that is would fix everything. So next we had it polished but the polishers machine broke down in the middle of the job and my tiles have lost there shine and have scratches in it. My contractor is insisting that I would have to polish the tile no matter what and says if I bring another polisher it will fix the problem. I dont think I should have to pay for polishing a tile that was already polished when I bought it. And to top it off he gave my house key to the tile polisher w/out my permission. Please any advice would help I dont know what to do? Should I be seeking legal action?

MYTKHAN

i have a question.. we have rectified tile.. we were told that the grout lines would be the width of a pencil tip.. that they could not but it up against the tile because the floor was uneven..and it would be sharp. so we agreed.. to a pencil tip.. but it came out much wider and even different widths through out the floor.. also its sharp in areas.. and has lippage areas... when the tile guy came to look at it he said thats just how it always is done...

That is not how it is done. Your tile guy is wrong. I would dump him, since he can't seem to do it right and have a real tile guy do the job.

so how wide should a recitfied tile grout look like.and should the width of the grout lines be universal or can you expect some deviation. and how can i tell if the tiles are beyond the standard of deviation.. some tiles are slightly higher than others causing a sharpness ... can it be fixed somehow ...and what are some key phrases i can tell the gc to make him take this seriously. i have already paid for the total remodel on our home and always thought the tiles were sharp, so i have to go through the person who did the job for me..help

Rectified tile can have grout lines as small as 1/16". I installed some in my entry, my first every tile job, and used 1/8" grout lines. I have a small amount of lippage, but that's because of my inexperience.

It is difficult to eliminate lippage, but the tile setter should take the time to do it correctly. Sounds like just a sloppy job by somebody in a hurry who doesn't care.

You should have posted your own thread to get more interest. Bill V and Mongo are the experts here.

A really great tile forum is the John Bridge forums. I go there whenever I have tiling questions.

Here is a link that might be useful: John Bridge Tile Forum

These are rectified tile:

No lippage. You can tell by the unbroken reflections. The joints are 1/16", but the chamfered edges of the tiles make the joints appear slightly larger. Here's another:

Oh-- and Shaughnn-- no TLS. :-)

Is Shaughnn a tuscan boy?

Don't know. I know I have the TLS system sitting here, but I haven't used it yet. It's a terrific system, and even for someone who CAN get a flat floor without it, it speeds things up incredibly, and I'd have no aversion at all to using it. But both these projects were from before the TLS system was even in existence. :-)

I googled something else and found this thread. Lippageis poor craftsmanship. I was looking for a way to explain to my client why im taking so long. They keep complaining im slow at tiling I keep telling them im very detailed and every stone must fit perfect.

Polishing lippage is wrong probably why it broke.
A planatary floor sander should be used first to smooth out lippage. a full section should be done, like a room and stop on a grout line/seem. Then honing using honing powder to the desired finish this for natural stone. Polishing will not remove lippage.

Doesn't matter whether it would or wouldn't. This should be on the contractor to do whatever it takes the make the job acceptable, not the homeowner.

Nice work, by the way. :-) Have you checked in over to John Bridge's yet? If not, you ought to. Register, and then post to the Pros forum and introduce yourself!