Return to the Bathrooms Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Posted by itltrot (My Page) on
Mon, Apr 18, 11 at 17:54

I really want to install a trench drain in my shower but I'm having trouble figuring out size and placement.

My shower will be approx 40" by 84". There will be a shower head on each 40" wall. We hoped to the the drain on the back 84" wall. Is this possible? What size drain can I use? The largest quick drain (the one I want but not sure I can afford) is 68". I've checked a few other companies and most of them are showing 48" as the largest. Also if I use a shorter drain than the wall, I know the corners need sloped. Can I do that with larger format tiles? I'm looking to use 6x20's.

Thanks!


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

johnfrwhipple is a GW member who has done drains like this.
Channel, trench, linear drains.
search johnfrwhipple .

Any square tube of stainless cut lengthwise can be a channel drain, if you take it to a welder who connects it to the round pipe you will need to meet the P trap. There are no dimensions required by Code except this one: the surface area of any drain is to be at least a certain square area so that one cannot easily stopper it by putting a foot over it (no risk of that happening with a linear drain). But, before you take my word for it you can look into this more.

I like channel drains. One single slope to the drain.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Thanks david, I hadn't thought about trying to build one. I'm shocked at some of the prices of these drains. Hopefully John will chime in with some information.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Have you thought of how slippery those large tiles might be?


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Yes I have. Since we are still in the planning stages I'm not overly concerned with the tile. I want to have the drain issues worked out first but thank you!


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

I did my master bath with a trench drain, large format tile, no shower door...

It was a somewhat challenging project.

There should be a few more options now.

Here is a link that might be useful: curbless shower ...


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

John has done a couple, but not very well. Leaks, floods...ah never mind. It's in the past.

Trench drains aren't particularly difficult. With just two shower heads you can use a 2" drain, the drain itself can be of any length you choose. You could even use two short drains side-by-side.

I've fabricated several, from copper or from stainless steel. I always use a topical membrane with trench drains.

Yes, you can use large format tile, but as others have mentioned, consider traction, and if you go with a shorter drain and have to pitch the sides of the floor back to the drain, think of how he cut lines will look within the large format.

Nothing wrong with trench drains. Except the price.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

David,

Thanks for the link, I will study that tonight. I remember seeing yours posted recently and asked about it. You are partly my inspiration. ;-)

Mongo,

I knew the larger tiles might become an issue with the sides being sloped back to the drain. DH was hoping to continue the main floor tile into the shower for the continuous look and the WTH factor because we are doing the wood like ceramic. But if the back slope is going to end up being an issue we can adjust plans as no tile has been bought yet.

If I use two trench drains then do I just tie them both into the main 2" drain? Nothing fancy or complicated? Also when you mentioned building your own, any tricks or tips? How did you finish the drain cover? DH as access to stainless and a talented welder so building could be an option.

You also mentioned topical membrane. What kind is that? Our floor is concrete. We are going to have to bust out the existing concrete because we are moving plumbing so we will have the ability to pre-slope the floor when we lay the new concrete. I had read up about the Noble pan to use with the quick drain. But other than that I haven't figured out all the membranes.

Will we have enough gradual slope if our shower is 40" wide? I don't want it to be like the old Mad About You show where their floor in the apartment was sloped and everyone felt it. LOL.

Any advice or help you can offer, I would greatly appreciate it.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

"If I use two trench drains then do I just tie them both into the main 2" drain?" Yes. With a couple of shower heads you can use a 2" drain. If you were making a mega-water shower with multiple heads, body sprays, etc, then you could use two 2" drains tied into a 3" drain line.

There's a little discussion about 2" versus 3" branch lines with trench drains on this thread, towards the end of the thread. And FWIW, this guy's "water sculpture" failed miserably as it flooded the bathroom when in use. Which is why we have laboratory testing and code for plumbing and not garage testing.

"Also when you mentioned building your own, any tricks or tips?" I should probably take photos the next time I do one. If copper I solder them up myself. If stainless, I do the fabrication then have a guy weld them up for me. I roll the hems with Kerdi using Kerdi Fix to adhere and seal, the hems (folding over of the metal) pinch the material as well. It sort of ends up looking just like the commercially available drains, metal plus fabric. Too complicated to describe the fabrication. But look at a quickdrain, they end up looking sort of like with regards to the fabric flaps.

The drain grids can either be metal, teak, stone (last one I did was soapstone), tile, etc. Bought commercially of made by me. For fragile materials like tile or stone I'll sometimes back it with epoxied metal reinforcement. Depends on the material and the thickness.

"You also mentioned topical membrane. What kind is that?" Topical membranes are membranes that go on top of the surface the tile will be adhered to; Kerdi membrane, Hydroban, RedGard, Nobel's membrane, etc. The fabric membranes like Kerdi and Nobel get thinsetted to the substrate and the tile gets thinsetted to the membrane.

The liquid membranes like HB and RG get painted, trowelled, or rolled on to the substrate and after a couple of coats and sufficient drying time, the tile gets thinsetted to the membrane.

With you sticking with the Nobel line you'll be fine.

If you want a true walk in with zero curb, 40" comes up a little short. Pitch should be a min of 1/4" per foot and a max of 1/2" per foot, and you need a 2" vertical differential between the top of the curb (or the doorway for a curbless) and the top of the drain. 40" at 1/2" pitch would come up a little short. If you had a 3/8" drop-down curb at the door and 1/2" slope over the 40" then you'd hit the 2" requirement. A 3/8" high "speedbump" at the door would suffice too. A little ramp up, then the slope down.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

We put in a trench drain and we love it and it doesn't leak! Boy, I feel like a rock star now having heard about John's projects. ; )
Well I have a hard time figuring out the configuration of your shower with out pictures (I am a visual learner) But I will say this, it is easier to put the largest drain in you can so you only have to worry with one slope. We were talked into a smaller drain one that just was across the opening of the shower and I regret it. It was a headache shopping for the glass enclosure and also pitching the material by hand. My shower is a strange shape, think triangle on one side and neo-angle on the other. No sense in me explaining it cause my problem is not your problem. Quick drain has a wonderful product that is made really well. It comes with a large flange of blue Noble material around the edge. I did my floor in the same material and I would suggest you use the same. I used Kerdi on the walls. The Nobleseal TS is thick and I used the Noble sealer caulk with it. Thank goodness I did cause one day I came in and my tile installer had a two step ladder in there standing on it! Ahhhh, but we were ok, it's thick, I would have been in trouble with a thiner product for sure. See there is only a layer of dense Styrofoam under this, along with thinsets and stuff but you get my meaning.
Here is a nice bonus of this system that you won't hear about, because of the Styrofoam when you take a shower the floor heats up and stays heated. We wipe our entire shower down afterwords and there is a noticeable difference with this floor.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Monog, Thanks for the information. That really helps answer a lot of questions and explains some of what I was confused about. We are going to reevaluate the drain, curb and tile now that we know we don't have the right size to do it correctly.

Now here's another option. What if we changed our mind and put a drain on each end of the 40" wall. That would change the it to where we would have to slope both sides. We really want to avoid the drain in the middle of the showering area.

I also found a drain by Jaclo that I could buy 2 drains, spacers and covers for the cost of 1 quickdrain body. Anyone heard of them or used one? Only thing I'm not sure about is they don't have a membrane attached.

Here is a link that might be useful: Jaclo channel drain


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

it's great to see someone else who wants a flat (sloped, not "level") shower floor instead of the conical shape with a hole in the center. Go for it, itltrot. Any flat slope to a line along the wall. A high point in the middle is a great idea. In my opinion, it is ok to have a little bit of "level" there, and not critical to make the high point into a peaked crest. Another thing: on top of the peaked membraned floor, your centre tile line can be a bit wider and flatter while it still follows the shape. This is because the miniscule amount of H2O that gets under tile has to have an escape path, and it does: either it evaporates (not like a flat spot down low, because on the top line there is no new water arriving!), or it slides away down one of the two slopes. It will be high and dry.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

I took a look at the Jaclo website. They do have me a little confused. They say their drain is to be used with Chloraloy 240 membrane or equivalent, which is a membrane that requires a mortar bed on top of it. 240 is not a "tile on" membrane.

The way the Jaclo drain is constructed, and according to their installation instructions and schematic, you thinset and tile directly on the membrane. You can't do that with Chloraloy 240 or it's equivalents.

The drain looks more suited to a topical membrane like Nobelseal TS or Kerdi rather than Chloraloy.

Unlike Quickdrain, the 1/2" vertical "rim" on this Jaclo will catch and hold water. There's nothing built in to allow water below the tile to drain.

I might be missing something obvious, but they have me confused. But as I see it the Jaclo has a few shortcoming.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Mongo, DH thought it looked like it would trap water too. Definitely don't want that. I'm trying to get away from quickdrain's price but I really haven't found anything else yet that seems to compare. Still a little hesitant to try to build our own.

daivd, Thanks for the support. We are trying to step outside of the box a little. LOL


 o
weep holes

If you were to go with the Jaclo, I'd recommend a topical sheet membrane instead of chloraloy. And while I'd want to inspect the drain with my eyes prior to doing so (or at east look at the photos on the website a bit more), I'd consider drilling holes in that inside corner to act as secondary weep holes.

Take that as off-the-cuff advice after a cursory examination of their website. The proverbial 2-cents.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

here is what i would do, to make it numbskull simple.

I would buy a length (6', 8' or 12') of 1.5" diameter copper pipe, cut it to the length needed to make pretty much the entire wall-floor junction, then (slowly) cut it lengthwise under a wet saw and with a slight slope so that at one end its bottom round is lower than the other end when the cut edge is made to lay flat. Then I would solder a 1/8 bend or 1/4 bend on the low end, and solder that to the next fitting that goes to the P trap. Ta da !!

i think mongoct can comment on this too.

obviously my next paragraph has to describe the membrane meeting the edge.

when i post that, i'll also describe the overlap of the floor tiles that will ensure the gap looks equal width everywhere along the drain length.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

I need numbskull simple! :-) I really appreciate the help.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Hi Itltrot,

I saw your post about Trench Drains (or) also better known as "Channel Drains". I sent you an email with some initial information on this topic with a view to contacting you to discuss the project you have.

Once we have established the issues you have and are trying to overcome with the trench drain/channel drain, we can open this dialogue up to share the experiences to assist others who may be encountering the same types of issues or concerns that you have.

Regards

plumbtech101


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

I installed one on our shower, a 40" Quickdrain with the long wall being about 54". We used a curbless design, but to get requisite 2" height above drain we depressed the shower floor about 3/4". While the concept of the trench drain and the flat plane slope to the drain is simple, actual execution and layout is tricky and very time consuming. In my case I had slice and taper existing joists then sister deeper tapered joists to reinforce the old joists. Also had to dig deeper in subarea to maintain clearances. Very happy with end result, but many pitfalls. Fortunately I am a gc, project is probably way beyond most diy'ers.


 o
Trench Drains and Channel Drains

Some one mention Channel Drains?

The linear shower drains from Quick Drain USA can be "Ganged together" with a splicing plate.

The linear drains from Heelguard USA can be custum ordered like the My Shower Grate Shop Drains.

ACO's wait time is about 6 weeks for a custom drain and they offer up oil rubbed bronze as an option.

There are a ton of ways of building a linear drain shower and an even prouder selection of tile options.

Please send me an email of your shower layout and floor joist set up and I can suggest a couple options for you.

We have had great success with the many linear drains we have installed this past year. As Mongo brings to light I had one huge failure in a flood test (my fault) but we made that one right and the clients love the shower - this is why you should always flood test your work or the work of others.

My email is info@byanydesign.com

Good Luck

John Whipple
By Any Design Ltd.

(604) 506 6792

Take a look at this "Ideabook" of mine - it should get your mind racing with creative design options...

Here is a link that might be useful: Linear Shower Drain Inspiration


 o
Linear Shower Drain Installations

Here is a look at the finished shower....

I'm showcasing the RED LED lighting that is available for the ACO channel drains here...

Here is a link that might be useful: Finished Shower Slide Show


 o
Some Random Install Pictures

Here is an album of mine showcasing some random install pictures.

Here is a link that might be useful: Channel Drain install pictures


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Photobucket

The shower that I put a hole in the membrane. Re did the whole bathroom floor for these clients to make things right.

Photobucket

My first install.

My,Shower,Grate,Shop,Designer,options,Grates

Linear drain up tight to a bench.

Photobucket

You might consider a tile top point drain instead. With some slick setting you can pitch to this center location.

Quick Drain USA

Quick Drain a couple months back

Photobucket

A steamer in Vancouver

I have a bunch more showers being tiled as we speak.

I'll post a few more examples to give you some inspiration.

Let me know if you want any advice - I'm just finishing up consulting on a project in South Carolina, Hawaii and Maryland. Will have pictures of these projects in a few weeks I'm hoping.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Hello,
We are new to this site and New to Quickdrain (trench drains)
Here is the progress so far.
Question, In this picture, where do the support clips go? Do I attach to the stud on the right? How do I attach on the left? Also, should the top of the foam form be level with the existing floor?

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.flickr.com/photos/vernabice/5657643879/in/photostream


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Do you have a void form?

If you do and you;re going to use it, you need to figure out the finish elevation of the drain. Set the void form at that height. Box out around the drain connection. Pour concrete around the void form, with the exception of no concrete around the area of the drain connection.

When the concrete cures, remove the void form, set the drain with thinset, make the plumbing drain connection, fill in around the now connected drain with concrete.

If you don't have a void form, you can set the actual drain at the finished elevation, make the plumbing connections, then infill around the drain with concrete.

Use whatever you have to secure the drain at the proper elevation...clips attached to the wood-framed sidewall on the right, whatever you have to secure it on the left; clips with tapcons into the concrete, whatever, etc.

Make sure that when you pour the concrete around the drain, the drain doesn't get displaced by the concrete and "float up."

Did you get an installation manual with the drain?


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Here is #2 of 3 of our drawings of this project.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.flickr.com/photos/vernabice/5658371168/in/photostream/


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Yes we did receive the (poorly photographed) manual……but it is only for wood floor installation….
No one has photographed a Concrete installation
Putting a trench drain into a wooden floor is a walk in the park compared to this demolition of cement floor to install. Plus……….finding a plumber with Quickdrain installation experience isn’t going to happen. All I can do is forward your information on to my plumbing company.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.flickr.com/photos/vernabice/5658480312/in/photostream


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

You should reference the following website.
http://quickdrainusa.com/concrete.php

In my experience, the difficult part is making sure that everything is properly positioned with tight tolerances for a good finish.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

The on line example isn't the same. The installation manual that comes with your purchase of Quickdrain has far more details and gives step by step with photos of each step for wood structure install, not for concrete.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Define the elevation of the drain. Attach the drain plumbing and set the drain at the proper position/elevation. Secure it in place however you can. Nails into wood, tapcons into concrete, hot glue, chewing gum...whatever.

Then mix and pour your concrete or mix and pack your deck mud to infill around the drain.

You can set the drain by itself and then do another mix for the pitch of the sloped floor, or you can do them both at the same time. I prefer to do them both at the same time.

I set the drain.

I then set the perimeter elevations of the sloped floor by packing deck mud out a couple of inches wide around the perimeter of the shower.

Once the perimeter is set, infill the center part of the sloped floor, pack it down, and your done.

If using concrete, use a dry-ish mix so it doesn't slump or flow out after the pitch has been set.

Let the mud cure for a day, concrete I'll give it a few days. Then come back and membrane the floor.

Bingo.
Bango.
Bongo.

Done.


 o
Linear Drain advice from Mongo

Mongo you really like to spread miss information about me.

The shower you speak of never flooded nor did it fail - in fact it works great. I have even taken a shower and filmed the process of opening up all 11 fixtures.

You really should get a life and stop dispensing worthless advice mixed with your solid advice.

Check out the video below and watch for yourself.

From your posts above it is quite clear you have never installed a linear drain other than the ones you have crafted by hand in your shop - I bet those where twenty years ago when you where in your 50's. How is the retired life treating you?

I hope these people don't follow anymore of your worthless advice.

Tapcons for a barrier free shower??? Do you even know what the clips they are talking about are for?

Mongo - Schluter employee's are not suppose to write online - I told you that last year.

Here is the link for the Quick Drain install.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA9djBp1bCo

Here is a link that might be useful: Flow Testing the Proline Channel Drain


 o
Large Tile being slippery when wet

"Have you thought of how slippery those large tiles might be?"

- Posted by terriks (My Page) on Tue, Apr 19, 11 at 14:13

Excellent point Terriks. I have been advising my clients to pick up a sample and actually bring it into their existing shower with them and try it under foot. Large format tile can cause a safety concern if it is slick under foot.

There are products out there to add slip resistance and make the tile safer but this is a very important consideration.

The safest tile size would be in the 2"x2" to 4"x4" range and these offer up much more grout joints and in so offer up more "Slippery When Wet Traction".

Johnny Grip makes a spray that helps with this... see the link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Johnny Grip


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

"Mongo you really like to spread miss information about me."

Please, John, don't start again. I'm not trying to speak poorly about anyone. I recall you posting two trench drain installations. One had 3 or 4 types of membrane...a mix of Ditra, Kerdi, some trowel-on membrane, and the nobel membrane from the trench drain flange. If I recall you used thinset to attempt to seal the nobel to the Kerdi. It's not a valid sealing option, the materials are incompatible with thinset as a bonding agent or sealant. That's not my opinion, that's from their tech department. Nobel recommends using their proprietary sealant. You wrote you didn't want to use it because you don't trust "caulk". Nobel Sealant isn't "caulk". It's a rubberized sealant designed for sealing their membrane.

The other you posted here was the "water sculpture" that was built with the undersized drain.

"The shower you speak of never flooded nor did it fail - in fact it works great. I have even taken a shower and filmed the process of opening up all 11 fixtures." John, when you first wrote of the shower you described it as having 11 heads going into a 2" drain. I advised you that a 2" drain can only handle, by code, 3 shower heads worth of water. You wrote it was not a problem as you have done some sort of basement or garage flow testing, so you installed the 2" system. You later wrote that when all the heads were turned on that the 2" drain was overwhelmed with water and the shower started to overflow.

Your own writing from that post:

"Mongo this is so border line that we think it will start flooding in about 3.5 minutes."

"I suspect we will have to restrict the volume of water by nearly 40 percent to make this thing safe."

"I had my plumber rip out the new 2" work that just went in a few weeks ago so I could inspect and source the drop in flow rate. I found many faults...I stopped by my plumbing wholesaler on the way into to work this morning and for fun picked up a wack of 3" couplings and 3" cast iron 45's and 22.5's."

"With these new flow rates I'm calculating a 40 percent restriction will net us a safe "Water Sculpture". "

"You should never build a shower like this! It is so unsafe. Mongo's concerns are just and all his advice should be heeded. "

I don't try to beat anyone up John. I just try to get people to understand code, to understand plumbing requirements, that's it. Had you installed properly sized plumbing from the outset all would have been well. That's all I was trying to convey in that post.

"You really should get a life and stop dispensing worthless advice mixed with your solid advice." Well, every day is a struggle, but I'm trying...

"Check out the video below and watch for yourself." I'm glad you got the flooding stopped. The valve restricting flow is a band-aid though, and it's still a code violation. I have absolutely nothing against you. I've only tried to encourage you to design and build properly from the start, that way you don't need band-aid repairs to make things work.

"From your posts above it is quite clear you have never installed a linear drain other than the ones you have crafted by hand in your shop - I bet those where twenty years ago when you where in your 50's. How is the retired life treating you?" More personal insults. Are you in a bad mood?

"I hope these people don't follow anymore of your worthless advice." Sigh...

"Tapcons for a barrier free shower??? Do you even know what the clips they are talking about are for?" I thought they were referring to quick clips to support quick pitch, which in a sense then supports the drain's elevation. Wood screws to secure to wood, tapcons for securing to concrete. With this shower being on a concrete slab, that's why I mentioned tapcons. Could I be mistaken in what they were referring to? Sure.

"Mongo - Schluter employee's are not suppose to write online - I told you that last year." Oh my. You really need to let this "Schluter employee" thing go. You accuse me of working for Schluter. You accuse me of "being Shaughnn." I don't know why you continually harp on these accusations. Do you think everything is a conspiracy?

Relax John. I'm on your side. I always have been. I've always tried to answer questions that you've asked me either on this forum or that you've asked me by email. If you can't see that, no worries.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Wow. I had no idea trench drains were so controversial. LOL.

daviddro1- I'm still waiting for your hot to on attaching membrane to a home made drain. DH is considering this option and I'd appreciate the input.

Mongo, I'd also appreicate your input on how this would be done properly.

john- thank you for the names of a few more companies that make drains. Your pictures just reinforce that I want a trench drain in my shower. As I mentioned in an earlier post my house is a slab home.

Thanks for the read.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

itltrot congratulations on staying the course while being buffeted by strong winds, from two directions. But both winds told you that drains like this are doable.

Water seeps along surfaces, but some surfaces are kinda like repellants. There are places where a hygrophobic material is probably going to prevent water from seeping back upwards against gravity and against the normal capillary action of water on any surface. (Like a drip edge, in stone. A way to (partially) backstop water from sliding sideways and upwards). Also, the geometry is a factor: think of the plastic (poly) barrier they often put behind wall tiles around the bathtub. The poly hangs down into a little gap and water gets "hung" there, in mid air, instead of sliding further inside some material of the building.

Give this some thought and you'll see how the membrane, the one that you (or your people) will feel most comfortable with, can be structured to ensure that water will not seep into the shower floor at the junction of the drain/floor. The drain is a different material from the floor, so the junction line where it meets the floor is (probably) going to have a microfine crack and a strong affinity for water, so a bit of membrane material overhanging can be a good thing, to act as a water edge, a drip edge. These are my thoughts for now.

Hth.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

@ Itltrot working on a slab on grade will pose a lot of difficulties trying to follow each and every code under the book. I have spoken to dozens of people in this industry who install these drains and build bathrooms every week I stay current and follow these builds daily and weekly - I have been doing this for three years straight.

I have been working with a few people as well in the medical community and over the past year have come to realize that much of what I have tried to achieve is near impossible when you consider every rule out there.

A barrier free bathroom is much easier to achieve with a linear drain and building a barrier free shower in your home is with in your rights as a home owner. Some cities will say no - some may try and stop you. But when push comes to shove it's your home and you can build what you want. If however it is a multi-family home or there is a rental unit you may have to back down and follow the book - which ever that might be.

The sad fact is most shower construction in North America is "Crap" old methods designed to speed the construction process and make things cheap. I have been advising my clients to install a secondary drain as a back up outside the wet zone and near the vanity or some place else outside the shower.

We have built a few this way and are building another as we speak. This current build will have 1" if I'm lucky not the 2" I strived so hard for in years past. This shower is in a new home and one of five showers I'm building in this home. 3 channel drains and 2 tile top point drains. With inspections and permits.

I'm noticing a trend as a side note that some are using the linear drain as the back up drain and a second point drain as the primary drain. There is a few examples of this online and it is adding to some peoples peace of mind.

With a concrete installation and the proline drain you can cut a channel in the slab 1" deep and set the drain body tight to the slab.

Photobucket

Photobucket

Photobucket

If you cut the channel an 1 1/2" wide you will have lots of room for thinset. I would use a thinset like Grani Rapid and clean and vacum the channel cut first. A little of the liquid can act as a primer for the cement. The grading change from 0" to 1/4" is the trickest and the subject of great debate.

Before you start cutting channels and finishing your prep work you need to decide on a tile layout and work out your grading.

Does your existing grade have a natural pitch that works with you or against you?

Are you going the heat the floor?

Do you have a tile setter a builder working with you?

There is a lot of questions and a solid game plan can help you make some key decisions and get you headed in the right direction.

Some bathroom designs can't be build without massive costs and big changes. Often little changes in design can make the difference. A barrier free bathroom is "Top Shelf" and come s with the most challenges and largest costs. A low curb shower can make life very easy and stream line the process.

Most of my projects are low curb showers. My finished curbs are most times under 4" in height with tile. These are nice and many of my clients I happy with this option instead of a traditional monster curb you see in most projects.

I would be happy to help you can chat with you more.

Before following anyone's advice send them an email (if you can) and ask them for their references and business name. You may find like me that many are phantoms. Bored retired setters. Some are house wifes. Some are accountants. Many have private agendas like promoting specific companies. Many are paid to post and write - steer traffic from one page to another all under the cloak of being "Helpful".

Just look deeper into the problem and look around for advice. Talk to at least three people who do this for a living. Hire a pro if you can.

@ Davidro1- Do you post anywhere else? I miss your posts but can't stand reading through Mongo's post to get to them.

Here is a link that might be useful: Some Quick Drain USA installation pictures


 o
Building a home made linear shower drain

It seems if you listen to Mongo you can get some stainless steel or copper and just make up your own linear channel drain and save a few pennies. Mongo adds he always uses a topical membrane and that his end up looking like a Quick Drain USA product. I also read that a cow jumped over the moon last night with my daughter at bedtime.

Fact is these linear shower drains need to be tested and you need a cUPC stamp on them. This costs a ton of money and how anyone thinks they can just make one up and save anything is crazy talk.

However the flip side is that many of today's linear drains are not "Really" a drain but more of a grill or grate. The real drain is the compression drain they sit over top. That drain has the markings and is approved for shower installations.

The linear drains from ACO, Luxe, Heelguard USA, My Shower Grate Shop and many more work just this way. I suspect that Mongo might have bend up some metal and dropped his over top of a standard compression drain - if in fact he has done this at all. We still have never seen any linear drain installs by Mongo here on Garden Web.

The channel drain from Nobel Company and Quick Drain USA are actual drains and hook directly to the home's plumbing system. Quick Drain uses a 2" no-hub fitting and Nobel's drain gets ABS or PVC glued right to the body.

Shower Drains need to be installed by a plumber - with a ticket. Shower drains have markings so the inspectors can see them. Shower drains that meet code and inspections like our man Mongo was chirping me about are not made up in a backyard shop and installed for peanuts.

Invest in a proper drain. If you want to save money install a standard compression drain (with cUPC markings) and design a channel and one way slope. Then fill it with river rock and save the stainless steel costs all together.

Don't go out and buy some copper and think you can make your own because you read it online from someone who you don't even know. From someone with no company and no contact information.

I have many examples of the river rock option on my Houzz account.

Take a look at the "Ideabook" below.

John Whipple
North Vancouver
Info@byanydesign.com
(604) 506 6792

http://www.houzz.com/ideabooks/24257/list/Curbless-Showers--Wet-Rooms--Level-Access-Bathroom-Renovations

Here is a link that might be useful: 92 Barrier Free Shower Pictures


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

I'm under other user names in other forums. It just happened that way.

johnfr has mentioned floor drains outside the showers. Good, to mention this now.

Several years ago, I installed floor drains when renovating my bathrooms; Instead of placing them in the center of the floor, I hid the drain under (e.g. benches) along the wall. Then, the floor became a single flat plane instead of an inverted cone shape.

At that time nobody at the "world's friendliest" tilesetters' web site supported my thinking. In the last few years hundreds of my posts over there have been deleted from their archives; this is their gradual invisible way of managing reality as history records it. Obviously my posts included pointed statements that many membranes were good, not just the one they love.

hope this helps.


 o
David please send me your screen names

It was your advice David that send me off months back looking into the plumbing requirements for the second drain - thank you!

I have since researched that subject to death and installed two bathrooms with back ups.

None as slick as yours all hidden away but we are using these new tile top point drains from Luxe that don't stand out.

My plumbing inspector thinks it's over the top because it is not required by code here in BC but on the flip side says that it can't hurt and if I want to install one - Giddy UP.

The John Bridge (Friendly Site) is a joke and many of the "Friends" write abroad and funnel traffic back to the JB pages.

I too have had my postings deleted there - and others. Unless you preach "Simple" "Easy" Kerdi" you are going to find resistance.

One of the Moderator's on JB's site is married to a man named Dave (Wiley). When Marge calls for her dog she says "Here Mongo".

JW


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Can't you boys play nice, or at least start your own thread instead of hijacking this one? That way you can pat each other on the back and talk about your conspiracy theory without detracting from the OP's question on this thread.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

i agree.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

This might be helpful information when considering large format tile for your shower:

COF RATINGS (coefficient of friction)
< 0.5 Not a slip resistant product
> 0.5 Meets OSHA recommendation for slip resistant walking & working surfaces
> 0.6 Meets ADA recommendation for slip resistant accessible routes (0.8 recommended for ramps)
> 0.7 Higher level of slip resistance for special situations
The static coefficient of friction may vary within and between production runs because of the inherent characteristics of fired clay products. COF can also vary considerably from the original state due to the presence of contaminants, water, floor finishes and other factors.

Here is a link that might be useful: More info on COF


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Good Morning Forum,
My husband and I just had an hour long conference (from Vancouver Canada to Texas Gulf Coast)with John Whipple about our Quickdrain Cement instal.......live chat using our drawings and photos from our project via GoToMeeting. Went very well, loads of real time help and advice and instruction.....good questions and answers in real time. He even did a live drawing of which way things need to slop and how to form and set the drain! All we had to do was emailed him our "current" photos and plans. He will be guiding us and our plumber and tile setter if there are any question.
He is much more knowledgeable than the company Rep. Our only regret is that we didn't find John sooner in this process and would of bought our drain from him. It is no fun
being the BETA test for a new product.
Here is the link to our plans and photos:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/vernabice/with/5657643879/

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.flickr.com/photos/vernabice/with/5657643879/


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

"Mongo adds he always uses a topical membrane and that his end up looking like a Quick Drain USA product. I also read that a cow jumped over the moon last night with my daughter at bedtime. Fact is these linear shower drains need to be tested and you need a cUPC stamp on them. This costs a ton of money and how anyone thinks they can just make one up and save anything is crazy talk. "

John, learn about the "alternative methods" section of building code if it is supported by your local AHJ. Again, just because you don't know how to do something, or you local code doesn't support alternative methods, it doesn't mean it can't be done by other people.

"One of the Moderator's on JB's site is married to a man named Dave (Wiley). When Marge calls for her dog she says "Here Mongo". " Personal insults now? Are you proud of posts like that?

Let's move on, shall we?


 o
progess

Vbice, glad you have your project moving forward. Enjoy!


 o
NTCA Member in Texas

Good Morning VBice.

I searched for a NTCA Tile Contractor close to your home and found only one member.

Stone Image, Inc
14019 Sw Fwy.
Sugarland, TX 77478
(281) 960-0070

I would call them up and get a quote for the process of waterproofing your shower, outside the shower and installing the tile.

The Pre-Slope from Quick Drain USA is easy to install but should be installed on a level surface for best results. I would be using a product like Mapei Grani Rapid or Mapei's Mapecem Screed Mortar (Fast Set). The bond to your slab is key and this cement should be clean, roughed up a little, primed and free from debris, grease and bond breakers.

While the boys are out with the grinders and demo hammers pick a spot where a second tile top drain can be installed if you want a little extra protection. I would set this second drain in a similar fashion as the linear drain and rough in your plumbing lines and cover with a coffee can.

Do you have inspections on this shower build of yours? Are you self inspecting or just "Flying Cowboy" on the job. If it's getting inspected or your self inspecting you need to be able to isolate this new work from the old and must flood the new drain and vent lines out to inspect for poor connections. I would also isolate the water lines so you can subject them to a pressure test. While your at this stage and tying in the new pipe it is easy to add in an extra clean out that this inflatable test plugs can slip inside.

Your drain placement is based on your shower size. Is your shower size based on "Stock Cabinets" and if so have you considered filler strips and gable ends into the equation? Are these cabinets all being built custom?

What is that pony wall getting clad in? Tile would be my choice. What is it getting topped with? I think we should look at this detail quite closly when we are closer to the framing end.

For today decide on the second drain and it's placement. Get the channel cut for the Proline and get the drain dry fit in position.

Call me if you have any questions on the fly. I'm on the drywall tools this morning and prepping a shower floor in the afternoon.

Good Luck.

JW


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

John & Vbice, could you please not use my thread for your further conversations as you obviously have alternative means of contact if you had a conference call this weekend.

Thank you.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

"you can get some stainless steel or copper and just make up your own linear channel drain and save a few pennies.

Mongo is correct - this is no different than one of your home brew showers. You really don't think QuickDrain invented or perfected the channel drain for showers, do you ??? We had one welded up for a gang shower about 10 years ago long before QD was even formed. I even used a shower with one when I lived in London 25yrs ago ! This is not new, but it is an emerging trend that QD is capitalizing on.

John - I used to think you were just naive, and/or marched to your own drum in the interest of progress. - Now I'm convinced you are just plain insane. You attack a very learned member of this forum because he doesn't bow at your altar of "hey look what I designed that is all new and techie and pretty and cost less than the stuff in the magazines". Get a grip fella - this is the behavior, attitude and "advice" that got you thrown off John Bridge's forum! Better know the codes inside and out too, before you unzip you fly next time. Just because you are not aware of something doesn't make it less viable.

When you design and install all these home brew showers and DON'T follow the manuf. specs, you are opening up yourself to big liability claim should one of your "hunches" not pan out. Perhaps it's different in Canada - but you'd get eaten alive at a trial in the States. You'd testify that you built the shower "x" way and there'll be pics a plenty of the net to corroborate the method, the plaintiff with the failed shower will then ask if you followed the TCNA guide and or the Manuf. specification and then ask you to show them - you won't be able to , and that'll be the end.

You way may well work, may even be better , but you CANNOT prove that , especially since your methods haven't been in service for any real amount of time. Best that you stipulate to your clients you are testing your hunches out on them. Remember, not all of the schmucks that wind up on your hero Holmes' show are victims of contractors trying to swindle the homeowner. Some had contractors that really believed they were doing things the right way or even knew better than the experts how to accomplish things!

Listen - I think you have a lot to offer the group , but you need to grow thicker skin when people (especially those that have probably forgotten more than you now know) question or criticize your methods or advice. If you want unbridled worship better start your own "blog" or a cult. Otherwise get used to being questioned, especially when you ARE wrong. Like it's OK for you to devise a frankenstein shower with Ditra, and Noble and Kerdi or HPG or whatever because they all have approvals individually so that's OK but Mongo suggests you can make your own linear drain and you blow a gasket because it won't have a pretty stamp on it? Get real man.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Where is the delete thread button?

Lets just list the various trench drain systems, their costs and installation method. It is not rocket science. The rest of the world has been doing them for decades. Newish to the US. There is bound to be debate and lessons.

also i cant wait for them to drop to under $100 for what is essentially a piece of plastic!


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

itltrot i hope you have enjoyed your thread so far, as much as I have; these last two posts were the best. They support Mongo. They help figure out JFRW.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

What's the matter people? Mongo's feelings got hurt?

This thread is about installing linear shower drains on concrete. We are offering up advise here on Garden Web.

Shower drains are not crafted in a home made shop. The Quick Drain is unlike any regular compression drain on the market. If you people actually installed these drains instead of reading PDF's online you would know this.

Yesterday we prepped a subfloor for an ACO channel drain over plywood. No where in the instructions online did I read that I should double up the plywood subfloor, install building paper and nail down some diamond lath....

... I wonder if this is incorrect? Mongo mentions that bubble gum can be used to install linear drains...

Today we will waterproof another shower pan for a NEO - ANGLE SHOWER this shower will have a custom Luxe Tile Top drain... hmmm no instructions for this online either - I wonder if I should use Bubble Gum or Grani Rapid?

What is crystal clear by your posts people is that I install these drains and you talk about installing. I have actually installed them and you have only read about them. I do this everyday and perhaps you did back in the day - and then they where not actually a drain but a grill.

Who here knows how to install a linear drain over a plywood subfloor and achieve a deflection rating of L/720? Are these instructions online? Are you sure?

Sorry if your feelings got hurt Mongo and that this upsets your following - I will try and be nicer going forward - please don't suggest chewing gum going forward. Or Tapcons for a flush mount Quick Drain Install. Or that these drains can get made in a shop for pennies. All of this is worthless advise.

JW


 o
Secondary Back Up Drain

Here is a look at the Nobel Flex Flashing which we use here in Vancouver for our secondary back up drains and tile top drain installations.

North Vancouver Tile Top Point Drai

The drain shown is a 2" Cast Iron Drain by Watts. It requires a 2" MPT adapter to connect to the homes plumbing system. The Nobel Flex Flashing is the blusih white circle to the right.

North Vancouver Tile Top Point Drai

A thirsty slab - this is your standard 4-1 one mix. Remember that you should wait at least 28 days before topping. Most people wait 3-4 days. A better Screed Mortar that you can work on top of sooner is Mapei's Mapcem Screed Mortar (Fast Set). We primed this with a little admix and water.

North Vancouver Tile Top Point Drai


A little thinset.

North Vancouver Tile Top Point Drai

Pre-Slope

North Vancouver Tile Top Point Drai

Nobel Sealant 150 for the seams... Never thought I would use a chaulking gun for waterproof connections - times change.

North Vancouver Tile Top Point Drai


North Vancouver Tile Top Point Drai

Setting the collar.

North Vancouver Tile Top Point Drai

Nobel flashing to Nobel TS

[North Vancouver Tile Top Point Drai

North Vancouver Tile Top Point Drai

5' rolls make for one piece installs with folded corners.

North Vancouver Tile Top Point Drai
Good to go.

Remember if you choose Nobel TS as your topical membrane instead of Kerdi you have the luxury of using modified thin-sets for your tile install. Schluter does not allow this without written permission. Liquid waterproofing allows for modified thin sets as well - actually it is only Schluter to my knowledge that strips away the warranty when modified thin-sets are used, I could be wrong here. Just play it safe and get written permission from Schluter or just use the Nobel TS or Daltile's DalSeal...

John Whipple
By Any Design Ltd.
info@byanydesign.com

JW


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Sorry if I have annoyed with my project details. I will try to follow your lead about your project "IT".

Since Budget is big concerns right now let me tell you what I have paid for my drain system:

I purchased my Quickdrainusa from a large plumbing supply company here in the south - Morrison Supply - located in a 4 state area.
Total cost for the complete system:
48" drain; Nobelseal TM liner; Nobelseal Quick sealant-1 tube; Quick Slope: QS30P; Flat Panel: FP30P; metal brackets; stainless drain cover;
for a total of: $1,143.25 US (which includes tax and shipping)- shipped UPS - who delivered it to the wrong house....which was vacant!

The actual drain body was only $537.US - not much to pay for my peace of mind....LOL

Homemade has to be the most economical, cutting out all these middle-men.
Have you set your budget for this project yet?

Please share photos of your progress once you begin tear-out
of the Cement. Are you doing this portion or subbing it out?
Before photos would be nice to see.

I will be glad to share with you my photos of progress and my product choices and budget off line. Let me know if I can be of help. I would be most interested
in hearing about your cost and choices.

Vbice


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

This has been a very enlightening thread indeed. Not sure how much I've learned about trench drains but I once I get past all the drama, I think there is useful information.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Hi IT ... this might be a little unconventional but maybe you could use 2 inch pipe cut in half (weld caps at the end and then glue the drain connection with PVC to the metal pipe using (Gorilla Glue - plastic to metal no problem). Treat the rest like a roof...do some kind of Torch Down roofing material as a liner and into the rim of the drain. I have heard of Hot Mop Tar used as shower pan liners on cement....what's the difference? Maybe a roofing guy could help you with the sloping material. Look.. a roof has to last about 20years, drain well and never leak. The Romans didn't have fancy contractors and expensive material and they did just great.....for a while. No big expense, give it a try....do a mock up in the garage then get the hose out. What do you have to loose? You just need a friend with a cutting torch and welding material and 48 in of pipe.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

"I wonder if this is incorrect? Mongo mentions that bubble gum can be used to install linear drains... "

John - this TRUELY shows that you are an idiot! Of course one wouldn't install one with bubble gum, and if you'd get your head out of the mortar bucket and acquired some social skills, you'd be able to tell sarcasm from just plain talk.

Would it have been easier for you if he'd placed a "caveat emptor" after the gum comment? Perhaps he should have specified the brand and flavor just for clarity's sake? Juciy fruit perhaps? We now know that your flavor of the month is Grani Rapid. Wonder what it'll be next month?

You should probably go back and edit or place a disclaimer in your post about sealing the QD drain flange with mortar instead of the sealant the manuf. recommends. - Or is THAT ok because the great Mr. Whipple, the Canuck bathroom king extraordinaire doesn't trust caulk and has installed a few trench drains in the last year allowing him to deviate from manufacturer spec when it suits him and making him the only expert on such things ???

Hunt around your jobsites a bit more - you might find some badly needed humility. What makes you think Mongo hasn't installed any drains? Because he doesn't post 5 pics a day to impress the internet denizens and promote himself?

You just don't get it do you.


 o
Bending Pipe and Bending Rules

Ahhh Antss - I did miss your wit and useful information. Thanks for the post.

I'm having a hard time typing here with my head still in the mortar bucket but I can see through a crack and starting to pick up speed on the old keyboard.

What's a "Caveat Emptor" is that some kind on Spanish Travertine?

While you have been busy looking after Mongo and defending his Juicy Fruit position I have been training, studying and installing linear drains. I have lots of time to play with and install a couple cases of Nobel Sealant 150. I have tested it side by side with Schluter's Kerdi Fix and tested it's reactions with our many liquid waterproofing options.

What have you worked on Antss? Your "Chip Shot" - perhaps your "Tan".

Antss what do you think is the best way to install a linear shower drain? Perhaps you have installed one and can offer something to the table?

How do you repair the trough whole on a condo slab install?
How do you fold Nobel TS on a Neo Angle Shower Curb?
Nu-Heat says their heating pad can go on top of the Nobel - Which is it? On top or below?
The floor is framed with I-Joists on 24" centers - what is the proper back framing?
I need Fire Blocking how do I attach that to the body side of the drain?

Last time I looked there was no info here on the manufactures web sites for any of these points...

As for your question;

I know Mongo has installed a Channel Drain - he told us. He makes them up in his shop. Bingo Bango Bongo and there in with bubble gum. Juicy Fruit I think, double whad - coarse chew. One day he will post a picture - it takes him longer because he has to edit all the camera dates out of his pictures and hide the source location from viewers. It must take a lot of time to do all that....

I look foreword to more useful insight from you Antss - perhaps you can scan all the install instructions from the various linear drain sites onto one huge picture JPEG and have one "Super Post Picture" you can forward to all those seeking help.

If Mongo had installed any channel drains he would have should us by now. If you had installed one I'm sure we would have seen it as well.

Nice chatting with you again Antss - you do add a lot around here.

Where can you go and get good advice on how to install a linear shower drain? Surely we need more options than right here on Garden Web.

I just heard that the president of the NTCA just did a presentation to a large home builders group on just such a topic. Perhaps we can get it from the NTCA. I'm a member - are you boys?

Perhaps the TTMAC can answer the question up in Canada? I wonder...


JW

Antss I get it - I really do.

"Where do I pick up that Spanish "Caveat Emptor" from again..."

:) Sarcasm.... I'm learning.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

John,

Things haven't changed since you asked me way back when why I don't post more photos. And as I explained way beck when, in general I don't take "how to" photos. When I'm working, I'm working. I'm not a "photograph everything" guy.

There are privacy issues too. But that's secondary, as I don't take photos to begin with.

I've only posted one true set of "how to" photos on this forum, they are in the Kerdi Shower thread. And those weren't even taken by me. I was working and someone else took the shots while I did the work. No secrets there, nothing to hide. I simply have no desire or need to document my every move to then post them on this forum. This forum is not my work, it's not my job.

I know you're in Vancouver now, but did you grow up French-Canadian? I'm wondering seriously, is English your second language? That's not slanderous or meant as an insult, it's a serious question. It would explain many of the miscommunications and misunderstandings that seem to occur.

I thought it obvious the the "gum" comment was a joke. I also wrote that the tapcon comment was for securing quick clips for the quick pitch to concrete and NOT for screwing the drain itself to concrete. And I wrote that I might have misinterpreted the poster's question. Yet you continually overlook that.

I've never posted my professional information on this forum, it's against the Terms of Use rules. I do no advertising on this forum. Also against the rules. I don't post my web address on this forum. Against the rules. I solicit no work through this forum. Same, against the rules. I've been asked numerous times by people who post and I've always graciously turned down the offers to build for them. I'm not here to gain work. I'm simply here to try to clarify issues in bathroom construction for an occasional poster. That's it.

I've never insulted you. I've never called you names. I don't know what your grudge is. You asked me if you could use my Kerdi photos on your website and I said "no". Is that why you're mad? You've asked me a lot of questions and I've always taken time to answer, I was always courteous when you emailed me.

Considering you were soliciting legal advice on how to pursue legal action against another person posting because you felt they insulted you on a forum, you sure do throw personal insults around pretty easily.

Take a deep breath and let it go buddy. I'm not trying to take food out of your mouth, money out of your pocket, or jobs off your work schedule.

I'm not competing against you.

Whatever it is that's angering you, let it go. That's about all I can say about it.

Best, Mongo


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

"What's a "Caveat Emptor""

Ignorant too, I see - look it up, we've already contributed enough to your free education. It's got nothing to do with Spain!

"What have you worked on Antss? Your "Chip Shot" - perhaps your "Tan". "

My tan is just fine thank you, I spent the Easter holiday at the beach. We have done project all over the country , not just in our little hamlet. Our clients include pro athletes, Oscar winners, Governors, little ol' ladies with Gulfstreams, and Fortune 50 CEOs. The kind of people that don't accept shoddy work , guesses, or failure - and have armies of flesh eating lawyers to back up their whims. We also do some "normal" projects too. Our work has been in, and graced the covers of National and International magazines.

"there was no info here on the manufactures web sites for any of these points..."

The web is not the be all - end all. You do have telephones up there in Canada right? All the firms have tech departments (and email BTW) and they will be glad to talk with you about your specific details and compatibility with other products. More often than not, they have already run across anything YOU dream up - wait I forgot who I was referring too. At any rate, the tech depts. will work with you on your designs, and in the event an approved solution can't be had, you simply need to go back to your client and tell them so you both can re-design or they can sign off on the potential problem(s) so you can CYA.

Another point I want to bring up is that this really isn't the place to micro design and work out complex solutions ready for install. General help, directions and a sounding board for ideas is what this forum is geared to. If you need specific / complex solutions you need to hire an design / architectural firm or perhaps consulting engineers in your case.

BTW - we hate , hate , hate neo-angle showers so we rarely do them. The few times another solution couldn't be found we had base-receptors cast out of terrazzo and one was CNC'd from granite. So............I couldn't tell you how to fold the corners in one. It's not a skill I care to have. But, if your crowd likes them - more power to ya. Choice is great.


 o
How can you make your own channel drain.

Mongo I wish I could write as well as you. You post away every day and when you can take pokes at me (as you did at the start of this thread) you do it so well. I wish I had your writing skills and command of the english language.

I like to post "How To Pictures" because it does two things. One it shows people and we all know a picture can be worth a thousand words and two it does help promote me and my services here in Vancouver.

The more I post and the more people I help the busier I get.

Now when I walked away from this forum and it's "Clicky Group" I had hope to put the negative energy I get from this site to bed. For good.

Then... I get a "heads up" that someone asked for my help - by name and you choose to "Be Negative" and speak poorly of my work. Thanks again for that.

You start talking about floods and failed projects with out really explaining what I was doing. I have a small family - three girls and need to provide for them my friend Mongo. So when some "Alias Online Writer named Mongo" tries to discredit the work I have done to date - I take issue with that.

I grew up in Vancouver - all over. English is my only language and thankfully I build showers better than sentences. I'm going to hang around this busy little web site since about one out of five internet leads come from right here.

So Mongo.

These people need to install a channel drain, one of the couple is confined to a wheel chair, the labour pool leaves much to be desired and they are acting as their own general contractor and have permits.

Do you still recommend they make their own linear drain? What if the inspector says "What's this? That has no markings - rip it out!"

Would you not feel guilty that you helped inspire people to walk their own path and it failed....?

These drains you make up in your garage that you have talked about so much on various threads I have got to see. How do you do the enternal pitch? How do you make the stand offs for the grill? Do you tap your own screw holes?

I watch the Proline drains being made at the production plant in Denver. I think it was a $ 400,000 laser cutter and the drain went through multiple stages and was handled by at least a half dozen people. Then shipped back for the attachment of the Nobel TS. A great process to see first hand.

How do you polish the welds out of the inside channel? How did you... ahhh forget it your full of "Mongo".

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Installed with one MJ

Here is the connection point between the Proline's drain bottom and a 2" ABS line. These "Fernco" or "No Hub" fittings are found at your plumbing wholesaler.


Back to the task at hand.

Your local building department will want to see the cUPC certificate for the linear drain so print it off and nail it to a wall stud. You should also print off the cUPC certificate for Nobel TS and it's installation instructions.

Your local building inspector will want to understand the waterproofing measures being taken and this should be written on paper and drawn to scale. I have been asked to produce cross section drawings and to include the data sheets from the various suppliers. Your tile setter/ water proofer can help with this.

Inspectors want to know that the products used are installed like the manufacture says. Just a couple days ago we struggled with a steam shower light. When we finally found the proper instructions online it said in "Black and White" that the contractor was to decide on the best mounting system and that no mounting instructions where provided. "I Love it" so this light can now be installed a thousand different ways and it all follows the manufactures recommended guidelines - Sweet.

Be prepared to make a couple trips to City Hall durning the process of finalalizing your plans and also be prepared to stand your ground. If the inspector or inspectors say "No" ask them "Why" - make them tell you the exact code violation you are breaking. This works very well for me,

"So your telling me that I can not do this for my client because of code?" most times the inspectors do not like being the "Bad Guy" and I'm sure there is some legality that they are not allowed to stand so strong on an issue if the "Home Owner" demands it.

If you are not allowed - ask "Why" "What Code am I breaking". With a game plan and insistance on proceeding you will most times get the green light to move forward.

On the flip side you may get stone walled and have to switch to option "B". Best to know this before getting passed rough in.

A lip or bump of a 1/2" is the maximum grade change to be compliant with a ADA bathroom. Many of the approved shower bases have less than this is elevation changes...

Why is OK to remove your tub and install a level access shower with a shower pan but you can not build one from scratch? Good question. A custom shower pan is better, stronger and safer to inspect.

I'm reading lots about costs above and this scares me a lot. The guy who comes to set this beautiful tile and waterproofing will need multiple visits to your home, need to flood test the work and this is going to cost you.

If the $500 price tag is hurting your pocket book a custom "Wet Room" is going to set you back a lot more. Make sure you have these estimates before you get going so you understand the total renovation costs.

We need to find out from the Nu-Heat Pad if their product can be installed over the Quick Pitch. I'm working with their boys right now in False Creek and will try and get some information from them.

Before you cover the Nu-Heat Pad with the Nobel TS or any waterproofing product the electrical inspection must be called. I would install Nobel TS on top of the Nu Heat pad - you will find the instructions say above or below.

The R value of Nobel TS is about 1 and will not block your heat output to much. Nothing you will notice under foot. Most likely you will need two systems - one for the shower floor and one for the remaining area. I would ask your electrian to hook them up together and use one heating sensor in the dry area. Total Watts and draw on your home's wiring will ultimately decide if this can be done and is up to the electrician and the city to decide. The leads are 10' on a Nu-Heat Pad so this will dictate where the thermostat lives.... Have your electrician check the resistance before and after installation.

Go talk to your city hall. Bring your drawings. No sense proceeding with out your city hall onboard with the design.

Good Luck.

John Whipple
By Any Design Ltd.
(604) 506 6792


 o
Posting on the web

Antts isn't posting on the web great. You can pretend to be anyone you want.

Have you worked for Oprah? I bet you did Bill Gates bathroom!

How about you share some work pictures with us?

Do you have any current shots? I mean something that was completed in the 2010 or 2011 - I don't want to see all your work from the 80's "Hunter Green" is so out...

JW


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

johnfrwhipple focus on the OP question in each thread and you'll be fine.
But that is a most gentle approach to you; it may make you bolder + stupider instead of smarter + wiser.
So, I shall expand upon it.
Besides, I've noticed that you do take redirection.
The person who originated the thread has
a question or a situation to discuss.
What to do: Deal with it; stay close to it; stay far from your other desires.

Search engines have you in their files, so you can stop self-referential writing.
Search engines might be kinder towards you if you chose kinder words for all parties.
I'll bet.
If you post once to correct something written about you, that is sufficient.
Don't micromanage issues that are not the OP's concerns.
Don't post for a participant to help you figure things out (that you need figured out) in any response to your open queries.
This thread is not the place to post your queries, if you wish to be most respectful.
Open new threads for each micro bite sized topic That You may have, and be gentle and kind.
Don't use a thread (that an OP started) to have an individual "face-off" with another participant.
Don't make the thread subject (that an OP started) drift over to what you might like. Not much.

If it helps you, i'll add that you are breaking a lot of forum conduct rules.
Both antss and mongo have written out why, for some of the cases. Only some.
I can add more reasons why.
But it would take a lot more time, and it's way beyond the scope of this thread.
I guess it goes without saying, that I concur with the posts mongo and antss made.
I'll write it out for the record: reread previous line.
If one feels there is a clique, know this: outsiders are welcome to become insiders; there's no clique here.
Hope this helps.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

John, just to be clear, per your words above, you are intentionally using this forum to advertise your work in order to obtain new clients for your business. Additionally, you are doing so without compensating the owners of this website for the advertising. You are doing such with full knowledge that you are breaking the rules you agreed to when joining this site. As iVillage relies on paid advertisement to operate this website, your actions constitute theft, plain and simple. Given your overt and admitted theft of services, you are on shaky ground taking umbrage at remarks posted on this forum.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

"You post away every day and when you can take pokes at me..."

Let me try to explain...I don't take pokes at YOU. It's not personal. Not at all. I like your enthusiasm, the relationship you've portrayed with your daughters, etc. You seem like a nice family man, a good person.

But in one of those threads when you posted that you can seal Nobel to Kerdi with thinset, that you don't trust NobelSealant150 because it's a "caulk", I simply ward people away from replicating that deviation. It's not a valid way to seal membrane to membrane. Your last pictoral is terrific...using NobelSealant150 to seal Nobel to Nobel.

In the other shower it was the DFU situation. Something like eleven shower heads going into a 2" drain. Too much flow into an undersized drain is one of the problems that Goofus is facing on his failed shower thread.

That stuff might work for you, but it's not something we want to encourage DIYers to do or homeowners to accept from contractors. It's safest to follow code. It's safest to follow the manufacturer's recommendations.

That's it.

All I try to encourage on this forum is code-compliant installations.

You know what...I just read the end of your post:

"How did you... ahhh forget it your full of "Mongo". "

With the continued insults, I'll simply cut this post short and wish you the best in your future endevours.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

"That stuff might work for you, but it's not something we want to encourage DIYers to do or homeowners to accept from contractors. It's safest to follow code. It's safest to follow the manufacturer's recommendations."

Yes - but Whipple has a double standard : he really feels that the nanny state needs to approve Mongo's drain but UPC be damned when it comes to how much flow a 2" drain will support. Seems the shower heads he uses work differently in Canada or the water is less dense and more slippery.

John - we did get asked 2 years ago to help out Oprah on her show's give away kitchen and took a pass. You should see the terms the show imposes on the contractors. Extreme Makeover is worse - you get to work grueling hours for free, get treated with contempt and if you want to publicize your involvement you have to pay them! You should see the look on their faces when they are told "no thanks, you're just not our type of customer". When they play the emotional "don't you want to help out a charity/good cause" card - I politely ask them when was the last time they worked on a Habitat for Humanity build ? They slink off to find another chump.

John - I don't need to post pics for you or anyone else to promote myself or justify my experience.

and.....you obviously "don't get it" take you lumps when you are wrong and stop digging yourself into a deeper hole. You know a mea culpa.

No, you probably don't - but it's not Spanish either.


 o
Good Information Antss

Wow Antss good post - really helpful advice.

So to summarize you feel that it is OK for Mongo to use a home made drain and I should never have installed one of my drains a while back because of max flow rates.

You should have added that I spend over 18 hours researching flow rates and got the drain working perfectly. Then after it worked - just to be safe we installed Globe Valves and removed the handles so that the shower could not preform in a dangerous way.

Have you seen the video of the shower working Antts? It is killer and a wonderful shower. Calculated lay out right down to the mil...

"Mea Culpa" what is that? Sounds Latin. Is that a new line from Italy? A plumbing Fixture supplier no doubt. Tool.

Did you work for any CEO's today Antss? What about a Movie Star? Guess you can't talk about all the fancy jobs you do everyday like Mongo.

Yesterday I helped my plumber rough in a new shower drain for a tub to shower conversion in Yale Town. It was the hardest rough in todate and like most others we had no access from below. The jobsite plumber had no clue how to proceed and the Client/GC wanted me and my crew on the changes.

Here is what we found;

tub,shower,conversion,pictures

The old 1 1/2" copper line was coming through a tiny 4" through hole. No way to chip out a larger hole without dropping debris on the suite below's ceiling. I broke out my baby Dremal tool with the cut off discs.

tub,shower,conversion,pictures

Working with these thin discs you can have no hand shake and must work slowly.

tub,shower,conversion,pictures

I made six cuts to get down low enough for the change and this took me just a hair longer than 2 hours. I also went through 18 mini disc's...

tub,shower,conversion,pictures

The six sections I removed. The toughest cut was the soldiered one where the tub's threaded portion of the copper was sweated into the vertical section above the P Trap.

tub,shower,conversion,pictures

A new compression fitting was added over the copper to transition PVC.

I could not reach any lower from above and still control the Dremel so this rough in will sit 3/4" above finished grade.

tub,shower,conversion,pictures

Ready for testing and fire blocking. I had the plumber clean out the PTrap and snake the line and today we will insert an inflatable test plug down past our new connection point and flood out this new section of pipe. We will inspect with our inspection camera and then fire stop.

Sometimes when your told that you can't put this there or you can't do this or that you are being told this because it is "Too Hard" or "Unfamiliar" to your regular crew.

Here in Vancouver we help out a ton of new builders and plumbers to get these new rough in's ready. After we discribe the process most GC's just want us to do the first few.

This shower like many other's is going to be inspected by our local inspectors. There are permits pulled for the project and we have two showers on the go.

The second shower is a large format shower that will have a tile top point drain in the center (almost center - Mr. Plumbing Inspector said under no circumstance could we start adjusting that one).

Hope this little tip helps out someone stuck in a pickle.

The Dremel rocks and is so handy to carry in the Van.

John Whipple
info@byanydesign.com
(604) 506 6792


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

"Yes - but Whipple has a double standard : he really feels that the nanny state needs to approve Mongo's drain but UPC be damned when it comes to how much flow a 2" drain will support. Seems the shower heads he uses work differently in Canada or the water is less dense and more slippery. "

Antss, and that's the other thing that John refuses to recognize. This has been explained before, but I'll run through it again:

I don't simply fabricate a drain, pop it in the shower, and with fingers crossed hope my inspector doesn't notice come inspection time.

I tell my inspector beforehand, show him a drawing, show him precedent, and get it approved beforehand via the old alternative methods caveat that was written into the code books way back when and is still included in my local code. My fabricated drains are technically code approved when you go through that process.

They don't need a UPC, or in Canada, a cUPC endorsement because they are not mass-produced for distribution.


 o
'Old Alternative Methods Caveat' - How to make your own linear sh

Mongo I had no idea you had this "old alternative methods caveat".

So to make these linear shower drains you simply meet with the plumbing inspector, review a pre-made drawing, show him precedent (this could be tough if you have never made one before) and then get approval.

So if you have never made one before I guess it's not allowed. If you can't show precedent are you still allowed to make this up.

I think it's easier to just pick a linear drain and order it. All the cUPC certificates are online and this complicated process is all ready done for you.

Photobucket

A cUPC certificate looks like this

Seem I have a lot to learn about this "Old Alternative Methods Caveat" - I'll ask around and talk to the plumbing inspectors here in Vancouver, West Vancouver and North Vancouver. Surely one of these 40 men have heard of it.

Maybe it's just a old American Plumbing Thing. I'll ask over on Terry Love's forum as this might come in very handy if these drain's need a little "Tweaking" at install time.

Thanks Mongo. Once again you always have the right answer.

Best,

John Whipple


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Afternoon John.

First, thanks for the pleasant post.

The original plumbing specs are submitted with the permit application. Pretty much standard there. In the case of something out of the ordinary, like a trench drain, we'll talk it over with the head officer. The fabrication, the installation, the membrane details. How it all ties together.

"Precedent" doesn't necessarily mean that I've built one before. The way I was referring to it is that alternative methods is there for new products that don't fall under established code. So there is "precedent" for new methods that may not necessarily conform to existing code still being allowed by code, and the code embraces these new methods.

Often times if you read the testing literature for engineered items; laminated beams, wood I-joists, structural foam sheathing, etc, these products will mention something about "alternative methods" in their literature, or where they have all the ANSI references there might be a reference to 104.11 too.

The things that my inspector wants to hear or see? That the interior of the drain conforms to typical and expected specifictions...1/4" slope minimum along the trough portion of the drain. That the drain has a minimum 2" diameter outlet. They want to see the sealing methods. I hem or roll the metal flange over, run a couple of beads of the appropriate sealant in the hem, then place the fabric in the hem, then close the hem in my brake or with a dead blow mallet. Seal it again and roll it again. It gets rolled twice, there will be no leaks. That seals the membrane to the metal. Everything is tight.

Although they still have everything on file, I include certificate or product info for the membrane I'm using, the sealant I'm using, etc. A spec sheet for the copper, as well as the solder specs. Not needed, but I include it.

The first one was the hardest, but back then they weren't terribly familiar with any of the tile-on sheet membranes. I made some references to their unfamiliarity with Kerdi in the Kerdi Shower thread from way back when. Since then it's nothing more than "hand them a stack of papers" and they sign off on it.

Ordering a linear drain would no doubt be easier. But I've been doing this long before they were commercially available, thus the need for a little on-site fabrication.

Here's the alternative methods text:

"R104.11 Alternative materials, design and methods of construction and equipment. The provisions of this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any material or to prohibit any design or method of construction not specifically prescribed by this code, provided that any such alternative has been approved. An alternative material, design or method of construction shall be approved where the building official finds that the proposed design is satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provisions of this code, and that the material, method or work offered is, for the purpose intended, at least the equivalent of that prescribed in this code. Compliance with the specific performance-based provisions of the International Codes in lieu of specific requirements of this code shall also be permitted as an alternate. "

Having the AHJ approve the drain make the drain code approved. There are no surprises come inspection time, and it removes any concerns over liability.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Photo of the slow progress at Vbice Quickdrain install.
The plumber came Thursday and made a little more progress of the trench for the Quickdrain for the curb-less shower.
Does this look ok?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/vernabice/5693297385/in/photostream

Thanks,
Vbice

Here is a link that might be useful: Quickdrain Install on Concrete


 o
A few more finished pictures

A couple more pictures for inspiration on your next renovation.

Photobucket

A "Mirror Top" drain from Luxe.

Photobucket

Another Luxe Linear Drain

These linear drains are set overtop of a standard cUPC compression drain. For these two we used Watts Baby Blue's - a cast iron compression drain with markings. It is important in multi family construction here in Vancouver to use a drain that is made from steel or iron.

Don't forget the firestopping - we like to use Hilti's "Fire Bricks".

JW


 o
Secondary Back Up Drain - a tile top option

Here is a second look at the Tile Top Drain we are using for a back up drain here in Vancouver. This is a Steam Shower that was tiled by Peter from Mountainview Tile here in Vancouver.

Peter is an amazing tile setter and I have helped him out on a few of his past projects over the last couple months.

The tile was cut down to size and this steam shower is in the place of the old bath tub.

tile,top,drain,steam,shower

Tile Top Point Drain

tile,top,drain,steam,shower

Mountainview Tile


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Interesting post but really got too personal. John, take a breath... Mongo has it right. Sorry. You have some great ideas but let's not rule out any others.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

ACO Red LED shower lights

If you want some "Bling" you can add LED lighting to the ACO channel drains. This is the Quatro Grill with RED LED's. The client preferred their selection but my kids want to see this grill and lights in our master shower at home.

The LED lights need a 18 hour charge to start and then re charging about every 2-3 months. You can get these lights in Red, Blue, Green or Rainbow.

John Whipple
Linear Shower Drain Installations
North Vancouver

Here is a link that might be useful: ACO Red LED's


 o
Building a steam shower with a linear shower drain

If your planning a steam shower like this one shown here remember to use a premium product like Nobel TS to wrap both the walls, pan and ceiling to make for a Vapour Proof inclosure.

With the one way slope a simple Teak Bench can sit inside with out rocking!

This is a Vancouver steam shower with 3 body jets, one rain head, one handheld, 3 flow valves and one thermostatic control valve.

The shower drain is a Proline by Quick Drain USA and is connected to a 1 1/2" brass P-Trap. Works great! Looks better.

The steam generator is by Relax-A-Mist a local Vancouver Company.

steam shower,vancouver

Vancouver Steam Shower - Linear Shower Drain


 o
Concealing the linear shower drain

Here is a look at an ACO channel drain that was installed out in UBC. Peter from Mountainview Tile did a great job with this steam shower - build for a family of 4.

ACO Tile Top

ACO Tile Top

The drain is hidden from view up against the entry curb and features an ACO tile top channel drain.

I worked with Peter on his first ready made linear drain. He loved it. Peter used to go through the hoops and process of having these drains made and fabricated in the past. Now he has an easier solution to his linear shower drain needs.


 o
Broekman & Olivera - World Class Design

Broekman,Olivera,Spain,Curbless,Shower

This is one of my favourite examples of a curbless shower. A drain with rocks... Nice clean look. This look is easily achieved and this amzing renovation is the work of Broekman & Olivera.

More info on Broekman & Olivera;

Broekman & Olivera offers their clients an all-inclusive service including the buying and selling of properties along with expertise in design, building and renovation. Whether it�s turning your plot of land into a modern villa with a stunning infinity pool and fully landscaped gardens or transforming an old finca into a blissfully rural family bolthole, with John and Gabriel at your service, it seems the impossible can become possible.

Here is a link that might be useful: More info on Broekman & Olivera


 o
Shower Drains in the Kitchen

If you get a little creative you can rig up like I did a linear shower drain in your kitchen.

Here is a look at an ACO drain I installed for my wife below the pot filler. This is a nice way to drain off any standing (stall) water in the pot filler line before filling up the large pasta pot.

Photobucket


 o
Placement of the linear drain

Here is a great example of a tile top drain. This one is a My Shower Grate Shop Tile Top and was installed by Powerhouse Tile here in Vancouver.

I work very closely with Kip and the boys from Powerhouse Tile and we have 5 new showers getting ready for "Show and Tell".

Here is a look at the last linear drain install from Powerhouse.

Tile Top Drain - Powerhouse Tile


 o
Kitchen Bench Drains

Photobucket

Here is a look at my Kitchen Bench Drain. This is a fantastic place to dry wine glasses, ziploc containers and any plastic that you don't want to send to the dishwasher.

My wife was not sold on the idea but now that she has a bench drain she is hooked! The drain is connected to my 2" waste line above the Ptrap and is connected with a 1/2" ID hose.

JW


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Photobucket

A fun picture of the light feature I built into my kitchen niche. The 3/4" glass is side lighted wit hthree tiny LED's each side.

JW


 o
Using Quick Drain USA's Quick Slope

Sloping a one way slope in your next shower renovation can be made easier with Quick Drain USA's preslope.

Here is an action shot.

JW

Photobucket

Photobucket

Photobucket

Photobucket

Photobucket

Here on this project I used Mapecem Quick Setting Screen Mortar for a bullet proof pan that can be covered with Nobel TS in 16 hours!

The Nobel TS was set with quick setting thinset from the edge of the pre slope to the drain.

JW


 o
Vancouver Trench Drain Installation - Yale Town Condo

Quick Drain USA,Quick,Drain,USA,Proline

Here is another tub to shower conversion we did in Vancouver. The builder had the demo done and we meet with his plumber with a 30" proline in hand.

Photobucket

The drain is set and the compression fitting installed by the plumber. Quick Drain has mounting brackets to make this process easier.

Photobucket

The tiny torge wrench fits most times but often the mini socket set is needed to make the connection in an apartment setting.

It is important to follow the process here. Your plumbing inspector might need to see this drain connected to inspect this process. Document this if he does not come. More importantly is the fire proofing measures. Do not skip this step and get the inspection called. You do not want to rip out an install because you forgot to install fire blocking between condo floors. In any multi family home, condo or apartment building - chances are this is required.

We use a combination of diamond blades and 1/2" to 1" angle iron to repair the through holes and ready them for the pre-slope base.

John Whipple
North Vancouver

.


 o
Designing a Kerdi Linear Trench Drain - tips and pointers


. .

A Poorly Designed Kerdi Linear Trench Drain

You need to be careful how you proceed and what products you choose to build your new shower. Here in Vancouver I just visited a job site in a Luxury Hotel's Private Residence that had a Schluter Systems Kerdi linear trench drain. I have seen many showers built this way online from a number of different designers and from numerous locations around the world.

It wasn't until yesterday that I had seen one first hand.

The shower was nasty. The most beautiful Carrera Marble was used and the plumbing package was "Top Shelf" - Schluter, Dornbracht and Kohler together in one shower unit.

The shower was built with a raised sloped platform that ran into a tiled trench drain. The trench was linear in design and a Schluter or Kerdi Drain used for drainage.

The amount of "Orange Mold" was crazy. Take a look at this install. Would you be happy with this shower after only 12 months of use?

Kerdi Drain Vancouver

This picture I took with my camera on the short wall looking down.

Orange Mold in a Schluter Shower

This picture taken with my camera in the trench looking back towards the raised platform.

The silicone here in this picture I think is slowing the weeping of the raised shower platform. Required in all change of planes - if you follow all the rules. A horrible design. A proper linear drain would work much better.

Kerdi Trench Drain

Another Shot

What's with the plastic in this Kerdi Drain?

Puzzling how a ABS drain was used in a commercial project

Not sure how an ABS drain was used in this shower. ABS is not yet fire rated in BC to my knowledge and is not allowed in commercial projects. This is clearly an ABS drain and the drain most likely has had one end bent up to allow this style of shower to be built. I have spoken with Schluter's tech support and have been informed in the past that they have no such bent drain nor do they advise anyone to bend one.

The plastic in the drain just under the stainless grill puzzles me. I wonder what purpose this serves in the drain assembly. I wonder if this plastic is slowing the weep rate into the drain???

As most people know Schluter requires non-modifed thinset to install their tile over Kerdi. Many marble suppliers will suggest the use of modified thinsets. Round and round you go. What do you do?


__________________________________________________


What went wrong here? Why is the mold Orange in colour like the Kerdi membrane?

Perhaps the type of soap or shampoo used?

Perhaps standing water and no pre-slope?

Perhaps rust?

Perhaps some mineral reaction with our local water?

Perhaps a lack of ventilation?

This is just one shower in a Luxury Hotel. I plan on looking deeper into the problem - I see the potential for a lot of shower pan repairs in the horizon.


__________________________________________________


Check your crews references. Check yourself that all the products spec'd for your new shower's construction work together. Use better setting materials - many of today's top setting materials have additives designed to stop mold growth. If this means you can't use Kerdi - then don't use Kerdi. Use Nobel, Use Hydro Ban, Use Aqua Defense, Use Durval.

Building a shower and designing a linear trench drain is more than slapping some mortar on the floor and making a trench. You need to understand how the end product will work before you even start.

If you can step back and forget the mold in these pictures. This style of construction if properly built would allow you to add River Rock and fill the trench with stone. A very popular look lately. This design better served I think with a different drain and more thought to drainage to the weep holes.

http://www.houzz.com/photos/26968/Alterstudio-modern-bathroom-austin
The link above will show you an example of a River Rock Trench.

When researching shower construction look into "Candle Wick" & "Hemp Cord". Do you understand what these products can do for your drainage? Find out...

John Whipple
North Vancouver
(604) 506 6792

Here is a link that might be useful: Schluter Linear Trench Drain Pictures


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

I really don't understand the Schluter vendetta you seem be trying to execute. Investigation and failure analysis would have been more helpful, having less to do with Schluter and more to do with installation mistakes.


 o
Alice it's a Schluter drain and Kerdi Shower?

Alice I really don't understand your interest with my posts and your blind trust in manufactures installation manuals and products.

I repeat like a broken record on this forum - I do this type of work for a living. I'm a waterproofing specialist and earn my icome from building shower pans and installing drain systems. What is your job Alice. To make sure I don't say anything mean about Schluter? To make fun of my sentence structure and grammar? To side with your online friends and believe everything they tell you and others?

Their is a lot of Schluter installs in Vancouver. Lots get screwed up. Same with other installs. Compression drain installs and wooden curb showers are even worse. There is a ton of crappy contractors. I talk about a lot of different things.

Instead of following the masses here like a sheep I report the facts as I see them. I have chatted alot about this shower today amongst three forums. Iron deposits and soap appear to be the groups combined conclusion.

Will see what more investigation brings.

Alice how many shower projects are you working on this month? I'm working about 10. None are Schluter projects. You won't see much Kerdi coverage in my posts because I don't care for the customer service or the restrictions that come from corporate head office.

You will see a lot more Aqua Defense projects. Some Hydro Ban. Some Nobel TS and when and where I can inform people of the strict requirements that Schluter outlines I'll pipe up so others can make an informed choice.

You should showcase your work and tell the world how great Kerdi is. Over half of the search inquires for shower construction are Kerdi centered. A fact I can track through my blog site and web site.

Just staying in the loop Alice. Thanks for caring.

JW


 o
How to decide on a tile layout that works with your linear drain

Photobucket

Here is my current project. The job is in North Vancouver and we are working with a large 24"x24" tile. The shower's drains is right at the entry of the shower so all the water will be rushing to this long custom design linear drain.

I will be installing a 5"x5" tile top drain as a secondary drain and the entire room will be waterproofed.

I struggled with a tile layout on this project and decided that the tile layed like this on the diamond grid looked and functioned the best.

You will notice that I have incorporated an extra cut and that the tile outside the shower will also pitch back a little. I have discovered - no, I have witnessed that when water travels off of a glass door it tends to wanter a little in both directions before the flow finds the drain.

This will be an incredible hard shower to tile and do this right. We may need to treat the large format tile with a product like Slip Nix to make them safer.

The home is a large custom home in North Vancouver. We are working with building inspectors and plumbing inspectors. I failed my first group of flood tests (this home has five showers) because the plumbing inspector had not seen Aqua Defense before.

Photobucket

That was an easy fix. I printed off the data sheet and ran it to City Hall - good to go.

I suspect there will be a lot of head scratching on this shower and that we will be asked a lot of questions. The sad fact or saving grace depending on how you view things is that there is a lot of Plumbing Codes. There is even more guidelines. It's learning what is really required and what a city official can actually enforce that will dictate how the bulk of showers are build.

This simple fact is why here in Vancouver most showers have no pre-slope. They should. The plumbing officials will advise it if asked. But if your crew skips this step and pockets this saving in their pocket they can do so with no resistance because in the big picture our poor plumbing officials can not enforce the guidelines.

So how do you build this shower of mine?

Use a CSA / UPC certified drain - check.

Have your plumber install the drain - check.

Flood test the drain - soon come.

Ask the plumbing inspector what he wants to see in the room - check.

Careful who you hire to build your next shower project. When getting quotes have the showers construction outlined step by step. Understand the process.

These five showers we bid on. We where the most expensive crew. Lucky for me the client did his research on shower construction and for his multi million dollar home decided against a regular $14.00 drain and went with the nicer tile top drains and linear shower drains.

The boys are getting ready to grout the basement shower. Here isa look at the shower in the basement office.

Photobucket

Photobucket

Photobucket

Photobucket

John Whipple
North Vancouver.


 o
How do you insert the tile into a tile top drain?

I have had a few inquires this past month about how we install the tile into these tile tope drains.

Photobucket

Here is a custom linear drain from LUXE. The drain grill body is sandblasted for a little more bite but I prefer a little liquid waterproofing first and then a nice setting material like GraniRapid.

Photobucket

Careful not to plug the weep holes in the drains grill.

JW


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Hello John and All,
We have finished our Quickdrain install, with no problems with the construction. Yea!!!!!!!!!!! Now here is a New Issue:
We are experiencing Hydroplaning of soap bubbles right over the top of the drain to the adjoining floor. It creates a big puddle on the other side of the trench. (John you were right about having that 2nd with pitch). We have very hard water…and I don’t want to wash without soaps. Shampoo is the worst offender. We used the large format tile….12 x 24. The shower is 72 in deep and 48 in wide with a bench on the back-side. Another problem with use of the large format tile is that I have also experience hydroplaning on the surface of the tile…….I am now using a bath mat. Anyone else experience this problem? Have a solve? I spray WD40 on the far right corner of shower drain….hoping to break up the foaming bubbles….helped a little. Look for any and all suggestions.
Thanks,
Verna


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Have you tried to shower without the grid cover in place? Does that help? They have other grid patterns and maybe one that creates less surface tension (bigger holes/ more holes)might help. Our T drain is across our doorway and we pitched the tiles a bit (the one's opposite the exit) so that it would cause some resistance. We still loose some water and I am working on a fix for that. The sweep that they put at the bottoms of the glass enclosure just only does so much. I am now working on fabricating a speed bump for the water to help contain it a bit more. Did you use the Styrofoam sheets that set the pitch? We have no water standing at all it moves quite quickly across the tile and down. Oh, and are you using more then one shower head at a time? I am no expert let me just get that out there, I have only done one shower and it came out good, but that's were my experience stops.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Hi JJAAZZY,
Yes to your question....we have taken off the grid and the “Hydroplaning Bubbles” still mound up at the corner and inside the drain and then flow over. Yes I have showered with more than one fixture running...as long as there is no soap being used we have no problems...introduce bubbles from the soaps and shampoo....then we get the “Hydroplaning Bubble Effects” over the drain (with or without the grid). Yes we did use the Styrofoam slop that comes with the Quickdrain. The pitch is just as Quickdrain designed ...no problems there. It drains great without soaps. This is a door-less shower stall, the splash effect is very minimal. I am working on finding a speed bump or corner dam...LOL… Here are two I am considering: http://www.staydrysystems.com/products/collapsible-shower-water-dam/ -or- http://www.amazon.com/SPLASH-ENDER-C-30-GUARD/dp/B000UETF84/ref=pd_sim_hg_3 It isn't aesthetically very pleasing.....but one of these might do the job. This “Hydroplaning Bubble Effects” is only happening on one side of the shower stall, the fixture wall. This is a problem we will have to live with…….can’t tear out the tile and start over. Right now a folded towel is taking care of the issue of “Hydroplaning Bubbles”. Someone needs to invent a non foaming bath soap and shampoo.
Thanks!


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

We used plumbers putty, I think it is called to roll out in a long snake and used it to kinda play with making dams to try and control the water flow. That is weird about how your soap suds are reacting. Maybe thin out your soaps with water and you will use a lesser concentrate.
As for a permanent speed bump I am in the process of looking for a half round of either stainless or aluminum that is around 1/2" that will still fit under the door they wanted too much for the speed bump from the shower door people. I will silicone it down and that way I can kinda play with the height.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

I know nothing of this company. I saw it on Dwell magazine ad.

Here is a link that might be useful: infinity drain


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

I have the same issue with my linear drain even with the grate completely off, but I do have a screen over the drain outlet pipe to trap hair, etc. (my wife's hair + soap scum + conditioner + hard water/limestone = disasters in the drain). if I remove the screen for a short while to test, the problem goes away, so I think it has something to do with the flow rate of the water.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

By the way, I am a do-it-yourself-er and my drain is homemade, but using the same basic design and dimensions as the Quickdrain model shown @ http://www.quickdrainusa.com/pdfdownload.php?filename=1970992501_PLDSWO.pdf. I constructed mine of PVC strips and set it in a trench I cut into my slab for the drain body, then put an arm from the discharge over to the existing drain standpipe in another trench, sloping the appropriate 1/4" per foot. Pictures of the finished shower and drain (with the grate off) can be seen @ https://picasaweb.google.com/116948501862884656789/October302011?feat=email#5670008032583772546. I am playing with several options for the grate - tile inset, bamboo, and river rock (not really a grate, I guess) - but want to eliminate the issues with the soap suds first. I actually did the whole bathroom remodel myself, and folks are free to look st the other pictures from the album, but the shower grate and a lightbar over the vanity are the only only things I am currently still working on.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

The "Orange mold" noted in a previous post looks to be rust staining. If the installed marble is Calacatta, as it appears, then the high-iron content inherent in the stone variety would cause exactly this sort of reaction. It's the metal content which often makes marble so interesting, but it's important also to consider how those metals might react in a wet environment when specifying a project.
That's a second opinion from several hundred miles away.
Shaughnn


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

I renamed my album for the bath remodel and it hosed the link I previously posted, so now it is https://picasaweb.google.com/116948501862884656789/BathRemodel for the album, if anyone wants to see the shower, etc.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

"I do have a screen over the drain outlet pipe to trap hair."

Tadroid,

I am having problem in finding a screen for my trench drain. The width of my trench drain is approx. 2.5" and the "normal" screen width is usually over 4 inches.

Any suggestions?


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Ken,

I tried a bunch of different options and - believe it or not - ended up finding my best answer is disposable aluminum grill topper mesh. I got it at my local grocery store for $.97 per sheet (I only bought one and they sell it year-round here in Texas because we grill a lot) and cut it to size, basically a rectangle folded into a long "U" shape that fits the size of my drain bottom and sides and completely covers the discharge area hole.

The sheets are pretty large - 12" x 16" - and so you have a lot of it for if you ever damage or mis-cut your first piece. I found the same stuff on the web @ http://www.barbecue-store.com/Disposable-Grill-Topper-16x12_p_43.html, but they want ~ $3 per sheet. You may be able to find it at your local hardware or big box home improvement store in the grilling supplies area.

It traps all significant hair and lint but lets the water flow go pretty much at the same rate as if there is nothing there. All other materials I tried caused just enough flow restriction that soap suds/foam built up to the point of almost overflowing and left lots of soap scum in the bottom of the drain once the suds dissolved.

Works for me, YMMV.


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

tadroid,

Your solution works very well! I really appreciate your help!

I tried using plastic gutter guards from Lowes. Did the job but not as good. The other solution I can think of is using "E-Z Lock Gutter Guard", however, this is just the same as using the grill topper (and grill topper is cheaper and easier to get).


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Does anyone know where the missing pictures are located?


 o
RE: Anyone with trench drain experience or knowledge?

Ron-
When pictures are missing, it typically means that the poster has deleted or moved those pictures since the original posting, which means the links are broken. It isn't possible to view them unless they get re-posted by the poster.


 o
Pictures of bathroom floor grading - Vancouver bathroom renovatio

I found them on John's blog page. Had to sign up for a password.

Thank You.


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Bathrooms Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Please review our Rules of Play before posting.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here