I would choose a skirted model, no matter what. The dual flush is a bonus. I recently bought the Soiree, which cost more than I wanted to spend but it has great reviews and will be in my new home a very long time.

Function. Does the Drake have a larger water spot? Would you rather clean out the inside of the toilet more often or around the bottom like always? :)
Monica

Is this for a master bath that only you will use, or a guest bath or powder room which guests will use? Everyone I talked to warned/suggested against putting a dual flush in a bathroom used by guests, because most people aren't familiar with two buttons on dual flush toilets; you're faced with (a) posting instructions, (b) giving a quick tutorial to every guest before they use your bathroom, or (c) leaving people on their own, having them pick the low-flush button, and then flushing again to clear their waste, or even worse, leaving behind waste not realizing they only partially flushed. Yuk to all three! Obviously those shouldn't be issues in a master bath where only you and your spouse are the typical users.

Otherwise, you're right -- it's a bit of a tough choice of tradeoffs. I guess it comes down to which you find more frustrating: cleaning the bowl if the dual flush ends up not being as powerful as you'd like, or cleaning the exterior of the toilet with a traditional design. I would -- just did! -- end up spending more for a toilet without that tradeoff, but I understand that's not an option for you. (I vowed when I started my toilet research that in the end, function had to trump form; I ended up locking in on form first, and then trying to choose the best function I thought I could get in the designs that looked the way I liked. So much for my function-over-form intentions!) Maybe this is a way to look at it: if you get the Drake, you know the design has no upside to pleasantly surprise you, whereas the Aquia at least has the possibility of performing better than you think it might.

-- Eric

Thanks for your thoughts. Eric, you're right. I think it's the possibility of loving the Aquia that has me hung up. If we'd love it, and get the skirted model in the process, this could be amazing! So many people love it, I just can't figure out why some others don't. I guess it's like anything.

I see what you're saying about the guests. This is for new construction and we need 3. One for the hall/guests, one for the Master, and one for the kids. I've heard the kids don't sit back far enough to hit the water spot, so I'm considering Drake for kids and guests, Aquia for master. This is typical of me; I can't make a decision so I buy both. At least I could leave a nice review of each for you guys! ;)

Keep the opinions coming! I'm still at a gridlock!

don't recall which flush the aquia uses, but it's not a Gmax and everything with toto seems to be about the flush. i'm ordering seven totos for our new build and the single most important feature is that they ALL must use the Gmax flush. while i briefly considered purchasing an aquia for a guest bath i wouldn't trade off for a feature i MIGHT like. so, it's four drakes (with various features), two lloyds and a promenade for me. good luck!

the one w/larger water spot.

i love the skirted also but that's not as important to me...

Kateskouros, it's not as clear as "G-max, because it's the best flush." You're right that Toto is about the flush, but G-Max has been eclipsed at the top of their pyramid by the newer Double Cyclone flush. In fact, as I posted in a recent thread about Toto toilets, a Toto customer service rep specifically told me: "Our double cyclone flushing system is our best system. It is more powerful, even though it is a 1.28gpf, and it cleans the bowl better. G-max is a good system as well but our double cyclone is the best." G-Max has been the standard by which Toto has been measured for a good number of years, but they are moving towards replacing it. That's not to say G-Max is a bad choice; there are clearly many thousands of happy Toto G-Max customers, with many positive testimonials posted on this forum. But if you look at Toto's web site, G-Max is de-emphasized (last on the page of their various flushing systems). In my post on that other thread, I offered the best explanations I was able to gather about how a 1.28 gallon toilet could perform better than a 1.6 gallon toilet, but I don't have first-hand experience to compare them.

-- Eric

kateskouros, I hope you have a maid! (g)
Monica

thanks jacobse. although i found some discrepancy as to the effectiveness of the new double cyclone flush (vs Gmax) somewhere in my travels. it's impossible for me to remember the sources of everything i come across! it is truly perplexing to me, so i decided to keep it simple and go with the old standard. we were considering the soirees over the lloyds but later changed our minds as there didn't seem to be sufficient feedback on the soiree (or double cyclone flush). i would certainly rather spend LESS (lloyds are more expensive than the soirees) but i need to KNOW i'm buying something that works ...really well. i just go about my business in the hopes of flushing all the cr@p of the day away.

monicakm: not a maid, as she is not a live-in. but we have someone in to help out ...although i fear she will certainly demand a raise for the extra rooms!

My girl friend loves the skirted bowls too.
She's had the Aquia CST416M for several years in her main bathroom, and she loves it.
When her five kids come over with spouses and grand kids, they also come as fans of the Aquia.

We do wind up selling many customers multiple toilets, many starting with one, and then more.

The two buttons and guests? I wouldn't worry about it.
I find that either button seems to work.
And all you have to say to them is: For small jobs, the small part of the button.
Or, you can leave the sticker on the tank that labels it too.

If you like the Drake bowl with Sanagloss, then for just a bit more, you can pick up the Vespin II CST454CEFG, it comes with a bigger water spot, Sanagloss and the double cyclone rinse.
It's a very nice way to combine everything.

Her grand kids love the Softclose seat.
I keep getting hints from her kids, that they would make nice presents too. Hint hint, you know, with a new toilet to go with it?

Here is a link that might be useful:

Terry, this might sound like a dumb question, so forgive me! Is that hose to the floor on the right in Kurts picture the only way to install an Aquia? Seems that would need cleaned, sticking out there like that.

It was a good question.

All toilets have a water supply.
Kurts was on the far right.
A water supply should have been on the left.

It was a trick hooking that one up. We had to use two supply lines, one was a Delta end, that allows a standard 3/8" end to thread onto the male threaded end from the Delta style supply. ( I'm putting that information down for the plumbers that could use that trick) We keep a few on the truck, just in case we find bizarre out there on the job. It saves an hour or two sometimes.

I have a picture from Neil Creger that shows a normal installation of an Aquia below.
I have many proud Aquia owners sending me their pictures.

Here is a link that might be useful: Photo of Aquia one, CST414M by Neil J. Creger

so terry, if one were to label the buttons on the aquia ...what exactly would they say? just wondering!

kateskouros: I saw one the other day and it was quite funny...
it was labeled #1 button for #1 and #2 button for #2!!!

Terry, can you please help me too? I have to use a 14" roughin in the kids bath, and am thinking of doing the Toto Carlyle. However, your recommendation on Vespin II has got me thinking - should I get Vespin II or Carlyle? Which one has a larger water spot?

Newyorking,
The bowl will be similar between the Carlyle II and the Vespin II.
They will both have Sanagloss and double cyclone rinse.
One is a one-piece, the other a two piece.
Functionally, they are the same toilet.

If you mean the older Carlyle, with G-Max, that rinse goes straight down the bowl, but the water spot is still about the same.

The new toilets from Toto, the II series are a little more narrow at the back of the bowl then the old ones.
While the MS874114SG Carlyle needs 7" to the left of center for the water supply, the new Vespin II and Carlyle II can get by with 5-1/2" center to center for the water supply. That just makes it easier in many homes for the plumber. The non-skirted bowls don't have that requirement.

Having both types of flush in the home now, it's really a tough pick between the two.
They both work well, and do it just a little differently.

But you have to pick one, I don't, I can always swap mine out anytime and try something new.
My main bath sees bowls come and go.
I would just go with your gut on this, and pick the one that feels right to you.
It's going to be good.

Here is a link that might be useful:

I love the look of the Aquia but now I'm concerned about using it. My installation would be for a basement bathroom. Should the fact that it will be in the basement be a consideration for which toilet to use? Also, I am pretty sure the main users would be my teenage son and his friends....hmmmmmm....

When we install on concrete basement floors, we use a small rotohammer for drilling the holes. Plumbers should have those in their vans.
The rotohammer cuts through like butter.

My son Jamie has written nice instructions for installing the Aquia that can be found on the Internet.
He also has instructions for the Drake.
When we talk to Toto tech support, they comment that they tell people to look at those pages.

The Aquia works well with teenage boys.
You will wind up using less water that's for sure.
And they are elongated bowls, which is a must for boys.

Here is a link that might be useful:

Terry, do you have a link for Jamie's instructions for installation?

Well in my usual fashion, I couldn't make a decision so I bought both. I got 2 Aquia II (Ma Ba & Guest Ba) and 1 Drake Sanagloss (Kids Ba). I'm a cloth diaper user and thought the Drake might be better for spraying diapers, with the larger water spot.

I got a real steal on these --$794 shipped for all 3, and they arrived in 4 days!! I'll be back to leave reviews, but it won't be until the fall when the house is completed.

Nice deal Wearyourbaby!
I would like to get probably the same ones that you picked, so would love to know where you bought them. :)

I have been wondering about cloth diapers too, so may put the Drake in the kids bathroom!

Since you asked,
The link below is the instruction page for installing the Aquia, written by my son Jamie.
He's installed dozens and dozens of these bad boys.
We sometimes get calls from other contractors wanting installation tips.

Here is a link that might be useful: Jamie's complete instructions for installing a Toto Aquia toilet.

> If you like the Drake bowl with Sanagloss, then for just a bit more, you can pick up the Vespin II CST454CEFG, it comes with a bigger water spot, Sanagloss and the double cyclone rinse.

Hi Terry, I'm confused now though -- isn't the size of the water spot entirely dependent on what bowl you use, not the tank?

What I really want to know is any real-life experience anyone has with the new Toto Drake II with 1.28gpf Double Cyclone - I'm familiar with the old, discontinued original 1.6gpf Drake with G-Max and liked almost everything but the mediocre cleaning of the bowl sides - a dry piece of TP stuck to the side could be reluctant to come loose, as the huge flume of water mostly fell from the front directly down into the waste exit drain, missing the sides. I'm hoping the swirly Cyclone flush will fix that without losing the power (and quietness and speed) the old one had. Don't want to have to flush twice. Kohler seems to be addressing the same complaint with their new Class 6 Cimarron commode, albeit without the major reengineering that Toto went with in their Drake redesign.

Thanks in advance for any responses!

Lee676, I recently posted in another toilet thread about our early experiences with a new Toto Carlyle II toilet installed just last week. The Drake II uses the same Double Cyclone flush as the Carlyle II and I'm guessing they are functionally comparable (but I don't know that for a fact).

As you note, the improvement that the Double Cyclone makes on the older G-Max toilets (like the original Drake) is the way it washes the entire bowl better, even though it uses 20% less water. I've posted in previous threads here that Toto reps will quietly acknowledge, as their web site also tacitly does, that Double Cyclone is their best flushing system now.

We've only had our Carlyle II in use for a week, and all I can say so far is that I've never seen a better flushing toilet. I was a bit concerned about the 1.28 gallons per flush -- but not after seeing how well this toilet works. Wow, is this baby fast and efficient! And yes, the "swirly" flush from the two side jets of water really does push a lot of water around the bowl very quickly. I haven't played with it to see if I can get toilet paper to stick, but in basic real-world use so far, it's been flawless -- with no toilet brush, no double flushing, and certainly no plunging.

It's a little telling that Toto has released a whole line of Double Cyclone toilets, while Kohler brought out one model of the Class 6 Cimarron nearly two years ago and hasn't moved any of their other toilets to this newer flushing system in all this time.

-- Eric

tarnator, I sent you an email. Let me know if you don't get it.

Thanks WYB!
Very useful. I don't know how to send emails from this site, so I hope that you see this. Thanks again.

> It's a little telling that Toto has released a whole line of Double Cyclone toilets, while Kohler brought out one model of the Class 6 Cimarron nearly two years ago and hasn't moved any of their other toilets to this newer flushing system in all this time.

Yeah, I noticed this too and wondered the same thing. Especially since the Class 5 ones are awful. Kohler's older Ingenium flush was much better, even if it doesn't seem to do well in lab-test settings. In real life - I've used plenty of these - they work very well and never leave anything stuck to the sides of the bowl. I'm glad they still offer some, but Toto's new 1.28g double cyclone may be better - I like having only two water outlets rather than the whole rim full of tiny holes that over time seem to each have a bit of mildew build up in or beneath them.

I like the new Ultramax II - only slightly more expensive than the baseline Drake, but you get an easier-to-keep-clean one-piece design (no gap between tank and bowl), and I like the very narrow tank that's good for smaller bathrooms, and likewise it's not too long front to back.

I am having the Toto Eco Drake II (1.28 gallons, double cyclone) installed on Saturday and will let you know how it works. My husband is very skeptical about the small amount of water (we are coming from an ancient toilet with a huge water spot), and since it's his bathroom he really wants a good flush. I'll keep you posted.

Jeantech, there is no "Eco Drake II". There's an "Eco Drake" model, which is 1.28 gallons with the E-Max flush (the low water version of the older G-Max flush) and the "Drake II" model, which is also 1.28 gallons with the newer Double Cyclone flush.

I can't speak for the E-Max models, but the Double Cyclone flush is just amazing! (We just installed a Carlyle II). Far, far better than our older Kohler 1.6 gallon toilets. I'm a complete convert to 1.28 gallon flushing, which had concerned me, because the Toto Double Cyclone flush is that good.

-- Eric

I'm assuming jeanteach means the Drake II since s/he mentioned the "Double Cyclone" flush, which only the II has. Confusingly, a one-year-old print brochure lists the Drake II (and several other "II" models) as using the E-Max flush - perhaps they briefly offered these before changing over to the D/C. The new, current print brochure shows "Eco xxxxx" and "xxxxx II" versions of several models, those using the E-max and Double Cyclone flush systems respectively, both in 1.28g versions.

I still think "Double Cyclone" sounds more like a roller coaster than a toilet flush system....

I still think "Double Cyclone" sounds more like a roller coaster than a toilet flush system....

And it's a whale of a ride! ;)

-- Eric

Hi Eric:
Here is what it says on the label on the boxes:
Tank: Eco Drake II/Vespin II
ST454E#01
Bowl:
Eco Drake II
C454CEFG#01

Both have double cyclone.

Wear your baby--could you also email me with your toilet source? We're currently redoing our master bath and will be buying a toilet shortly. Thanks so much.

Wolfgang, I can't find your email address so I hope it's okay I post here what I did. I found the best Toto prices at homeclick--they were actually taking an addl. 5% off a couple weeks ago. Then I called National Builder Supply, who has a price match guarantee. I was just nervous about some of the CS reviews on Homeclick. Natl Builder Supply was great and my 3 toilets arrived in 3 or 4 days, I can't remember. The only catch with NBS was that the toilet had to be in-stock at Homeclick. I kinda wanted the Drake II but it wasn't in stock, so I went with the Drake I. Hope this helps!

Not mentioned, but we went with the Gerber "Avalanche" toilet and are supremely happy with it. We mated it with the Toto Washlet and couldn't be happier. A WHOLE lot cheaper than the others mentionhed BTW.

Have had the Toto Eco Drake II for almost a week now and just wanted everyone to know that it's fabulous! Love the "double cyclone" technology. A very fast flush and fills up quickly, too. The "water spot" is nice and big and everything leaves the bowl very quickly. I am relieved, because my husband was skeptical about the 1.28 gallons. I definitely recommend this toilet!

In reply to Lee675's comment above that "Kohler's older Ingenium flush was much better, even if it doesn't seem to do well in lab-test settings. In real life - I've used plenty of these - they work very well and never leave anything stuck to the sides of the bowl...."

OH, do I beg to differ with you! We installed a Portrait toilet in our powder room 20 yrs ago when we built our home & it's the worst flushing toilet I've ever cleaned! Not only does stuff get stuck on the front end of the bowl (yuck!) but hardly any water enters all around the rim while flushing. We can't replace it as we have the matching pedestal & both are in black - very expensive color so we're stuck.

I keep clorox clean-ups & rubber gloves handy in that bathroom now, as I refuse to use a toilet brush on what gets stuck - just too disgusting. None of our other 4 bathroom have problems with flushing & all toilets were installed at same time. It's got to be the design of the bowl & flushing system.

My hubby is a P&H contractor, well-respected in our "tony" town, so the toilet was installed properly. It's just hopeless & I dread it when someone uses it for more than a simple peeing!

The Eco Drake has worked great so far for us. we've had it for about 6 months now. Even my teenage boys are impressed with it's flushing power. It has a quick flush w/o a lot of water but it seems to do the trick! Our water company offers a $100 rebate on this model.