Tearing out tile and fixing the wall at his expense. he did wrong. He needs to make it right.

Uh, that was done incorrectly.

Typically the depth is marked on the fixture itself (plastic shield thingy), or at least in the instructions....

That should be redone!!!!!!!

Can the plumbing be accessed from behind?

i'm not saying he shouldn't fix it - i think a pro should. but my friend & i did a less severe but similar thing with my moen shower valve, though mine was too far in. I called moen & they were very helpful and told me how to order an adapter kit that had longer cylinders & screws so we could fit the cover & handles flush with the wall. Perhaps a shorter cylinder & screw would help in your case, if getting the prop to fix it doesn't.

I have to agree with the others. It should be fixed. He would not want to leave you always being upset about this detail and should fix it. He may be able to fix it without damaging anything that is not covered by the plate.

You should make he sure he fixes it.

It just never ceases to amaze me what GC's and others seem to think owners should just learn to live with - that picture isn't even close to being a maybe - that is downright wrong! Make him fix it properly - the tile is his concern not yours.

Mistakes happen and sometimes subs or GC's make a bad call and the result is unfortunate but you can live with it - that is not one you should live with.

I stop by my job site once or twice a day - today I had the incredible good fortune to stop by just as the tile sub was about to make a decision I would have lived with but would not have been happy about. I have a 6 inch band of glass tile - horizontal 2x1's around my tub. They miscalculated at the end - a pony wall - and were going to cut a 1/4 inch off the top of one row of glass tile - my beautiful something of a splurge tile. It was also the row I would gaze upon most often while in my tub. He told me they could do that or remove the marble field tile and make it a bit higher to fit the full glass tile row. He of course made it sound like it would be a hassle and they would have to redo the opposite pony wall because they were level. I said I really did not want the tile cut. I did also veto redoing the other pony wall - the 2 sides - of wainscotting - do not connect anywhere because of a full built-in vanity and linen closet. No one is going to notice a 1/4 inch difference in height. I would notice theglass tile each and every time I took a bath ;-)

I guess my point is some things don't matter, some things are disappointing but you can learn to live with them and some things are just plain wrong!

I agree with all the other posters: that is completely unacceptable. And it is HIS responsibility to make it right. Is this new construction or a remodel? I know how hard it can be -- especially if one has a good relationship with a contractor -- to dig in one's heels, but you really have to on this one. If HE would like to talk to Moen to determine if there is an acceptable (to you) workaround, I'd let him try ... but I don't think it's your job to do that legwork, it's his. And the solution -- if there is one -- has to be absolutely 100 percent satisfactory to you.

Might there be an easier way into the wall on the OTHER side?

Funny thing-- I was just in this very situation last week. I came in to install the tile, and it was obvious that the shower valve had been mounted way too far forward in the wall cavity. It BECAME obvious, as soon as I went to put the cement board up. I'm curious why the tile guy in THIS instance didn't realise it, unless he just didn't give a crap, figuring it's not his job-- just put up the tile, get the check, and then come back for the repair afterward to get ANOTHER check.

Hi Bill,

What did the contractor have to do after you saw the mistake at your job? Did they move the shower pipe back? There is no way to get to the back of our shower.

Where in the world would he have to start without ruining all of the tile surrounding the area to be cut out? Seems like he would have to re-plumb the entire bathtub and shower.

I have contacted Moen and sent them the same photo. I have a feeling there is no "fix" for this. I will be interested in what Moen has to say.

Hi,
I know very little about this stuff but am in the middle of a bathroom remodel and am doing alot of the work myself. I bought the Delta 17T series valves. They have a sliding collar that fits behind the handle part (that you see in this picture). It would fit in the space that you see is wrong in this picture of the Moen valve. It gives you a great deal of adjustment for different wall thicknesses. I'm wondering if Moen has a part for their valves like that?

I'll try to post a picture of it here. Excuse all the fingerprints on it. I put it up temporarily to make sure I don't make the same mistake:)

Here is a link that might be useful: adjustable collar for valve/wall thickness

Spacechallenged,

That is a great idea. I hope Moen has something like that for our problem. I have contacted them and hopefully, they will have something similar to the Delta 17T series valve to at least minimize the space.

Thanks for including the photos.

Below are photos of the bathroom shower that back up to the dressing area. The problem shower/tub valve is right opposite the newly installed marble on the dressing room vanity.
We will be having a mirror installed above the dressing room vanity with lights going through. Could the contractor go through this wall *above* where the shower/tub is on the opposite wall and make the repair?

What exactly would he be doing to "fix" this situation? I don't think he would be able to re-fit all of the plumbing without tearing out the dressing room vanity..

What a mess. I am so frustrated and disappointed.

The Tiled Shower Wall
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Wall Between Shower and Dressing Room
{{gwi:1408726}}

The dressing area vanity and the wall above (mirror has not been measured yet. There would be access, but only above the marble vanity top.

{{gwi:1408729}}

Ditto what everyone else has said. I am a contractor... a good contractor that is proud that our work is RIGHT in every regard. It is not unusual for us or one of our subs to pull something bone-headed like this (and it is boneheaded, for as noted, the rough-in valve set is marked for depth in the wall... Plumbing 101). What differentiates the good contractors from the schlocks, is how they respond to such a thing. Good contractors come up with a solution and remedy this embarrasment quickly. Then he goes from whining schlock to hero, right?

Cutting out and replacing a few tiles is not going to bankrupt the contractor. That is the likely solution... but really, all YOU should have to do is say "It's not right; I don't like it...fix it... whatever you have to do".

Here is a link that might be useful: AskMason: Home Design, Remodeling and Repair Advice

Oh, for God's sake! That's ridiculous! I can't believe he even let you see that!

And he even grouted! What an idiot. He'll have to re-do it. It will be a pain, but it's certainly not impossible, and it is certainly not your problem. Was this his first shower install or something?

Spacechallenged,

Did you buy the Delta 17T series valve separately from your shower trim? I have tried to do a search and everything comes up with the faucet and everything with it. I think it just needs a shorter cartridge and stop like the ones in your photos.

When I first saw the problem I didn't say much to the contractor. I just said, "what happened here?". Then he told me about the wood that caused the shower pipe to be too close to the wall. This contractor redid our kitchen and it is beautiful and functions perfectly.

He will be back again on Wed and I am going to address this with him. I know everyone is saying take a "kick butt" attitude, but it is so against my nature. I should have said something when I first saw it, but I was sort of in shock. Now that I have had time to think about it and have read the responses on this forum, I know I have to speak with him about it. I am dreading it.

jane

Jane - is that a Moentrol or a Positemp? Does the handle pull out or just turn? Are you certain that handle goes with the shower control? It could be just the angle of the photo but the handle set appears to be undersized and could - *could* be for a lav set not shower. The parts look identical except for size. Sometimes items are mis packed and or mis labeled. It's just possible this is an easy fix. Did this come from Home Depot or Lowes by any chance? Returned materials are rarely checked for accuracy.

What did the contractor have to do after you saw the mistake at your job? Did they move the shower pipe back?

That's exactly what they did-- pulled it back a little further into the wall cavity, and restrapped it down. As for goingthru the other side of the wall, I think the hardest part of removing the vanity would be unhooking the plumbing, and seeing as how it would be in the plumber's best interest, I'm sure he'd be willing to do that in order to fix the situation. The fact that the mirror would cover the seams of any hole cut into the wall afterward only affirms that this is the way to go. your contractor my ahve to get behind the granite backsplash with a flexable putty knife to cut the silicone bond that I'm sure is there, but that's no big deal, either.

Homemasons-- nice to see another contractor in here! :-)

I had to similarly fix my shower valve that my buddy installed for me. I did it before I put up the cement board, because I checked any for problems while they were still easy to fix. It can really pay to do a "dry fit".
Trust, but verify!
Casey

lucinda, don't try to learn what has to be done.

The contractor may have said what he said, in a neutral tone of voice, hoping you would take it upon yourself to learn more and "get into it" and then possibly stymie yourself with analysis paralysis. I can see you getting yourself into a jam with all your questions.

At the end of a job, some people need a day off or two before their get their spirits up. He may have been a bit discouraged... Call him back in now and say, "OK, you've had a few days, now you know this can be redone, and I hope you get the grout to match quite well too."

HTH
-david

lucinda002,
Sorry, I just saw your question.
My Delta valve came that way. I know all valves are different so perhaps the Moen valve doesn't have something like that available. I don't know.
Surely the contractor will make it right.

I installed the Moen Caldwell 82494SRN trim kit (Posi-Temp trim kit) in brushed nickel and - b/c the bathtubâÂÂs valve was placed too close to the wall - the lever sticks out about 1/2 inch from the Escutcheon - exactly like the photo. I bought the Moen Bathroom Escutcheon 162BN Brushed Nickel (the extension plate) -- the list price is about $113 but you can get it on other sites for between $60 and $70 (note that the162 extension part comes in 2 other finishes which are cheaper than the brushed nickel one). It's literally just a round hollow circle w/ the same finish as the Escutcheon (and the same foam/rubber underneath that rests against the tile). I was underwhelmed and disappointed because of the price(esp. b/c the trim kit that I bought is only $100) but ... I installed it and I'll do it again for the 2nd bathroom. There's still a slight gap but it now looks part of the design b/c you can't see the stop tube.

Despite the Escutcheon's 2 1/4" length screws, they weren't long enough - in my case - to reach the screw sockets. I went to home depot and bought #8-32 x 2 1/2" stainless steel, round head machine screws (need to get stainless steel b/c it's a wet environment) - they're very cheap. They weren't perfect (the head could have been a wider diameter) but they're hidden behind the lever. Note: if you need longer, they have 3-inch #8-32 screws online (Home Depot maxes out on these at 2 1/2"). I attached a not-so-great pic of the finished product.

Another lessons learned for me: my old tub spout was a slip-on and the pipe nipple that sticks out of the wall for the tub spout to attach to is not male-threaded. Moen's tub spouts are IPS ones which means they require the pipe nipple to be male-threaded. Thinking that I had to buy a different tub spout (a slip-on one), I went to HD and one of the employees suggested that I buy the Danco Universal Tub Spout w/ diverter (the diverter is the mechanism where you divert the water to the shower head). I didn't know it when I bought it but ... ironically, this tub spout is an IPS, too (it requires a male-threaded pipe nipple) and, therefore, it had a plastic "slip on to threaded adapter" inside. I used this plastic âÂÂslip on to threaded adapter" and then used the moen's tub spout (it means I paid $20 for the universal tub spout and adapter and only used the adapter). Note that I would have preferred a metal adapter but this should be ok (and I didn't feel like looking on the web). I haven't regularly used any of this yet but if I have any issues, I'll repost.

This post was edited by metazonezone on Thu, Nov 21, 13 at 22:08

I got news for everyone that said that the contractor made a 'mistake'.

If he followed the installation instructions to the letter, he DID NOT make a mistake.

The mistake is Moen's.

Yes, sad but true, and they continue to provide 'comic book' instructions with no explanation in human words.

If one follows the instructions and sets the plaster ground (the plastic plate that attaches to the valve for installation purpose) FLUSH WITH THE FINISHED WALL (as is printed on the plastic plate) then the handle WILL STICK OUT TOO FAR.

If Moen would provide a plaster ground that is 3/8" thicker, then the rear of the handle would be 1/8" from the escutcheon when the valve is in the OFF position.

I've installed a number of these... and the first one I had to 'eat' about 2 hours of labor moving the valve deeper into the wall. I didn't make that mistake again. The latter ones were installed with the plate 3/8" DEEPER into the wall and the handle fits perfectly.

Don't trust the comic book.

Hi John, that's pretty much what I do too, but I use 1x3 or 1x4 to mount the valve on. Same thing as plywood I guess...

I agree with the dryfit also, thing is, I expected Moen's instructions to be correct on the first one I did. Ha ha ha ... never again will I trust ANY manufacturers instructions. Sometimes the installer DOES know better!

Sometimes when it's almost perfect. It's good enough. - LOL

My last job Kohler suggest using a caulking that allows for easy removal of the slab top - like that is going to happen. Some German manuals are all pictures - no text.

What's up with the Grohe's stuff? I hate how the flow valves and I box require different thickness of blocking.

The trim handle sticking out like that looks like crap. It is a common complaint and something that leaves a lasting zit on a job.

When talking to the plumber it is typically safe to say the wall build up out from the wall studs is going to be 1 1/8"- 1 1/4" including tile, backer board, thin-set and waterproofing.

According to Moen that valve is correctly installed. Up to 1" and that valve appears to be one inch. It's nice to beat up on contractors who do their job but if he used the supplied plaster ring then that is about where it would end up. Why do I know? I install those valves and have met with similar complaints. You can blame Moen but the contractor is within the manufacturer's guidelines.

Your contractor had nothing to do with it. It's Moen's manufacturer. I would complain to MOEN and request them to send you a FREE trim ring.

This valve and trim (if it's a Kingsley, I believe) has a rough in depth variation of up to 2". There's not a set number, just minimum and maximum because it's designed to adapt to many types of wall installations. Wall thickness is unique in what's considered "thick wall" applications such as tile. There's no way for Moen to know what your specific final wall thickness is. It's up to the installer to evaluate the resulting finished wall thickness and set accordingly, that's why the instructions simply give the parameters. The center of the valve can be 1/2" to 2-1/2" behind the finished surface allowing you to have up to 2" thick wall material if needed. No argument though that all fixture instructions could be easier to decipher. They are always a bit of a head shaker.

I posted this earlier but to save some folks reading a bunch of posts to find it, here it is again...

Moen supplies what is called a 'plaster ground' with the valve which is a round plastic plate that attaches to the valve. The cartoons call for mounting the valve body FLUSH with the FINISHED WALL. The problem is that this is WRONG and if you follow the cartoons to the letter, the valve handle WILL stick out too far. If you mount the valve body such that the plaster ground is 3/8" DEEPER than the FINISHED wall surface, the handle will be perfect.

I wrote this wrong, sorry:

"The cartoons call for mounting the valve body FLUSH with the FINISHED WALL."

I meant to say:

The plastic plate is called a 'plaster ground'. The cartoons call for mounting the PLASTER GROUND FLUSH with the FINISHED WALL.

Jeffry, you are absolutely correct about the Moen instructions/cartoon calling for mounting the plaster guard flush with finished wall. My daughter had her bathroom remodeled 2 years ago and used a Moentrol valve that was installed according to the instructions provided. The valve stuck out too far just like that photo from the OP. Unfortunately it was too late to change the install without tearing out tile and there was no access from the other side of the tiled wall.

It looked ridiculous. I called Moen and they blamed it on installer error but they didn't hesitate to send a adapter escutcheon piece at no charge. Supposedly it is an $80 part. I think by giving it to us free they are admitting without verbalizing it that they are in the wrong.

My question is, why haven't they revised their instruction sheet.

Here is how it looks with the added piece.

"My question is, why haven't they revised their instruction sheet."

That's a very good question Badgergal! Of course, I have no answer for it other than to say that I've tried on numerous occasions to get through to someone at Moen that either A:) gives a crap, or B:) has the power to do something about it.

That's the way it goes generally with big companies. Those in Sales-Marketing and Engineering are totally isolated and insulated from the public.

One good thing is that as long as they are in business, you (or your daughter) will never have to purchase a cartridge or spool valve. Moen will send replacements for FREE for as long as you own the home.

The instructions were followed perfectly on mine. It sticks out like this. Moen is fresking up in the night! Their instructions are WRONG!!!!