Although I've tiled several tub ceilings, I just went thru my pics, and I don't have a pic of a single one!! All the ones I have are showers! Sorry about that!

Bill, if you do have pics of any tiled shower ceilings, that would be great. Thanks!

Bill,

They're all good of course, but the 5th one down?

"Meticulous" comes to mind. That's as fine a tile job as I've seen.

Mongo

You wanna talk meticulous? I almost forgot to post ceiling pics from the one I'm working on now-- 10' high ceilings, and if it doesn't move in this bathroom, it gets tile-- ALL 1" hex-- walls, floor, ceiling, tub deck, shower-- every bit of it:

That's not meticulous, that's sheer punishment! ;)

Been there for two weeks now, and still have probably another one. I didn't even show you pics of the watercloset! Just that by itself is 5'x 5 1/2'. :-)

Before the tile -
We are in a bathroom re-do. The present sheetrock ceiling was put in before the wall frames were put up (1950) - so - my shower celing is the same as the rest of the bathroom. I would like to tile the ceiling of the shower. Can I tile on the present sheetrock or do I need to cover it with the plastic then dura rock and then tile? It will not be a steam shower.

Dora

You can tile over the sheetrock. The ceiling's the one thing in the shower tha can be sheetrock. I still prefer cement board, but it's not a requirement.

Bill and all the others - thank you for all your help! This forum has saved me soooo much time.

Dora

Hi Bill
When you are doing a tile job, do you charge more per foot (in your bidding) when doing mosaic tile like the 1" hex vs. 12x12 or 6x6?

Your tilework is fantastic. Proper attention to the details and it shows in the finished results.

thanks,

bingo

For square ceramic mosaics, no. I charge the same as I do for the others. Up till now, I never charged more for hex, either, and for flooring, I probably still won't. But if I ever have someone else want their walls done in 1" hex, yes, there's going to be a premium charged. I'm into week three right now (NOT INCLUDING the cement board installation), and I should have this wrapped up by saturday. If this were 12x12's, I would've had it completed before the end of last week. I mean, look at this-- it's an octagonal shaped shower-- 8 24" walls, 4 of which have 18"x6' windows, and nothing in this shower is plumb, so going up those little strips on either side of the windows I have to draw plumblines and get references off that, graduating the cuts on either side of each of those strips. In addition, the only way to get cuts clean enough being that they'd all show, was to saw cut all of it. I haven't used a cutter on a single piece of tile on this project. This job was another one of those PITA jobs!!

Bill, I am new here and am totally blown away with your
tile expertise. I have been trying to remodel a house that
used to be a duplex. There has been some remodeling done but it is outdated.

The master bath has been ripped out, everything but the cedar sauna.

We are seriously thinking about using the sauna for the
new shower. Can this be done without taking out the cedar?
The floor is concrete so the plumber will have to check it out.

Janis, I don't imagine it could be. I mean, it could, but there would be lost space as a result. You'd also have to make sure you completely isolate the tile from that cedar. One other thing-- the drain would have to be torn up and replaced, so as to have a flange at the base to which a pan memrbane could be attached and a mud pan poured, unless there's already some kind of membrane in the concrete, in which case, you're going to need to be able to install some kind of membrane that will seal the walls to the floor. It's completely unorthodox, but I've done it once before.

Hi Bill,

Do you use Kerdi on the ceiling when you tile it? I plan on doing so, and am trying to confirm that there will be a strong bond when using it on the ceiling.

Adam_543

If it's a Kerdi shower, then yes, I do. If not, then I'll tile directly over the cement board.

Hi Bill,

Pardon my ignorance, but what actually contitutes a "Kerdi shower"? I was planning on using kerdi on all 3 walls and the ceiling of our tub surround as we have a tub/shower combo. right now we have wonderboard on all walls and the ceiling. I was going to treat the WB seems with thinset and fiberglass mesh tape, then apply the kerdi (in accordance with overlapping instructions), then the tile everything. Is that recommended?

Thanks for your input!

Adam

Hey Adam-- If you're using a Kerdi Drain and the Kerdi membrane, it's a Kerdi shower. :-) As for using the meshtape under the Kerdi, don't waste your time. The Kerdi does the same job-- bridging from one sheet of cement board to the next.

Question from my neighbor Bill. What brand of mortar do you use for tiling ceiling over Kerdi that will be a steam shower in the future?

In previous posts I have seen you say use anti- sag mortars or lightweight mortars. But isn't that just the opposite of what Schulter says to use? (I am not trying to pick a fight, just want clarity) Does TEC have a mortar you would use on the ceiling or some other manufacturer like Hydroment or Mapai?

My neighbor also wanted to know how you tile the walls when using Kerdi & a block of wood at the bottom, doesn't the nail you use to hold the block penetrate the Kerdi?

In previous posts I have seen you say use anti- sag mortars or lightweight mortars. But isn't that just the opposite of what Schulter says to use?

Yep!! Sure is!! Next question!! :-)

Seriously, I've gone back and forth about this over at John Bridge's with the other pros over there. I can't count the number of showers I've done over Kerdi, using Laticrete's 255 or Mapei's Ultralite. I've yet to have a single one come back on me. In addition, Schluter's the ONLY manufacturer who requires you to use unmodified thinset over their membranes. Now for floor tile, I'll follow that. You've got to be able to walk across it to grout it and finish it, not to mention that the area needs to be able to open up within a reasonable amount of time. With wall tile, however, there's no need to be walking on it, so it's not a problem.

My neighbor also wanted to know how you tile the walls when using Kerdi & a block of wood at the bottom, doesn't the nail you use to hold the block penetrate the Kerdi?

Your neighbor's pretty damn nosey!! :-) (just kidding) It certainly will penetrate the Kerdi. Although I use my own thing (hydroment's Ultraset) Kerdi has their own "fix-it" caulking called Kerdi-Fix. Once you pull your ledger board off, put a spritz of Kerdi-Fix on it, wipe off the excess, and you're good to go. :-)

So Bill, you're saying that you use modified on your walls and ceilings over Kerdi? Do you know what the reason Schluter gives for not doing so? Now I'm torn...

Adam,

In a nutshell?

Thinset is made from portland cement. Mix it with water and it cures via a chemical reaction. It doesn't dry, it cures. Put some in a plastic bag, it'll cure.

Admixes (modifiers), which improve the bonding strength and overall performance performance of thinsets, are latex modifiers. Latex modifiers need air to dry. So modified thinset will cure some via a chemical reaction, but the modifier needs air to dry.

If you use a highly modified thinset to bond a large format porcelain tile to Kerdi or Ditra, air can't pass through the Kerdi/Ditra or the tile, it can only get to the thinset via the grout joints.

No air means the thinset may not fully cure or harden, and it can result in a weaker final bond.

Schluter take the most conservative approach and says "dry set (unmodified) only".

For typical tiling, I don't have a problem using a lightly modified thinset when using Kerdi or Ditra.

If using large format tiles where I might need a thicker bed of thinset to bed the tile in, plus there are fewer grout lines or air access? That's where you need to be careful.

Mongo

This is great info. So if I'm using 12*12 or 6*12 over kerdi I should be able to use one of the three that Bill listed above? Or are those too modified?

"One of three--

Laticrete 255
Mapei Ultralite

Lowes will usually carry one of those two, and Home Depot will have

Custom Building Products Megalite."

They're all modified. But for use on the walls, I don't have a problem with it. Matter of fact, 255 of Ultralite is what I usually use. The shower pan is a different story, though. For that, you definitely want to use an unmodified thinset, as well as when you put the Kerdi up in the first place. My pics for that would be Laticrete's 317 or Mapei's Kerabond.

Where to look for good price shower panel, shower towers, shower columns? I find a great website for your answer.

http://www.allnewbath.com

Here is a link that might be useful: All New Bath-the places for vanity, shower, and kitchen

I thought the name sounded familiar. SPAM ALERT.

Bill...I just saw the hex tile job...were you having nightmares of hex tiles coming after you?! That's just a bit OCD/*over the top*, IMO. I mean, I like hex tiles as much as the next person (maybe not as much as that person LOL), but is there *any* relief from the hex tiles in that room (besides the square tiles on the edge of the seat)? I kept thinking "decor strip! decor strip!"

And look at that cutting/matching in the angles. Truly masterful.

Wow, wow, wow.

Fly-- that was the same guy with the Moravian tiles. :-)

They are one lucky couple to get your work on that. I hope all the good energy you've put into that project comes back to you. Well, hey, you already can say you got very unusual experience with hex tiles, that's a plus, right? :)

Those pics have singlehandedly convinced me to use the nice Ann Sacks glass mosaic tiles I happened upon at salvage only as inset panels in DD's upcoming shower, not as the whole thing. I'm going to do panels of some cool matte porcelain and inset the glass in some way that it measures out in whole tiles. Even though I've just got 90s to do, standard shower, the thought of cutting all those tiles through makes my head spin. Call me lazy but she'll still have the nice glass mosaic look and I'll have energy to do something else :)

only as inset panels in DD's upcoming shower, not as the whole thing.

CHICKEN!! :-)

I am chicken, hear me squawk :)

When doing a shower on a plywood floor what is the correct sequence of applications? Plywood - Hardibacker - Thinset for slope - Membrane - Tile? How high should the membrane go up the walls. And how do you deal with the extra material in the corners? I am using Mapei's Kerabond with Keraplastic for the shower floor. Can I just use that everywhere or would you use one of those premix white mastics on the walls and ceiling? Anyone have a step by step with pictures for doing the shower pan?

Fhew that was a lot of questions.

Here's a link that goges through the steps as clearly as it gets:

Here is a link that might be useful: Harry Dunbar's Ontario Tile

friedrice,

Harry's thread shows how to do it correctly.

As to your questions:

When doing a shower on a plywood floor what is the correct sequence of applications? Plywood - Hardibacker - Thinset for slope - Membrane - Tile? No hardiebacker on the floor. No thinset for the slope. Use drypack for the slope. Thinset is for "thin" applications, not "thick" as needed for a preslope.

How high should the membrane go up the walls. 8" to 10".

And how do you deal with the extra material in the corners? Fold it over on itself, forming the fold to retain water. Some then tuck the material into the framing bay, some notch the lower edges of the stud to "recess" the membrane flush with the front edge of the stud.

I am using Mapei's Kerabond with Keraplastic for the shower floor. Can I just use that everywhere or would you use one of those premix white mastics on the walls and ceiling? No premixed thinset or grout in a shower, no mastic in a shower. Those premixed materials are, to a certain extend, water soluble. Why use a water soluble adhesive in a wet area? Use dry powder thinset and grout that you add water or an admix to.

If the Home Depot or Lowes guy tells you to used the premixed "thinset" or "grout", laugh in his general direction and walk away.

Anyone have a step by step with pictures for doing the shower pan? Bill took care of that.

Fhew that was a lot of questions. Better to ask how to do it correctly now than how to make the repairs later!

Mongo

Better to ask how to do it correctly now than how to make the repairs later!

Amen to that!

Ok I am going to have to take some pics and posy them so you can help guide me back to the right direction. I believe I have goofed this up a little bit but it's fixable I think. So I never got back to a computer and just started working forward with what I thought was the right sequence. Hardibacker is already on the walls and no shower pan or liner built yet. Do I need to remover the cement board and start over or is there a different way to proceed forward? I will attach some pics tonight when I get home so this will better make sense.

Also what kind of "drypack" do you guys think I should get. Be brand spacific and I will most likely get it from Lowes. Is the Mapei's Kerabond with Keraplastic only used for setting/glueing the tiles? Holy hell that stuff is costly, is there some other stuff I should be usung for setting the tiles that is a better value? Stay tuned for pics and THANKS for all your help guys!

Drypack is about 1 shovel of portland cement to 4-5 shovels of sharp sand. Add just enough water to essentially make it look like wet sand. Take a fist full, squeeze it, and it should stay in a clump, but no water should drip out of your fist.

It's not supposed to flow like mortar or concrete, it's dry and you have to pack it into place.

Anyhow...drypack your preslope. THEN install your membrane on the floor and up the walls 8-10 inches. THEN install your cement board, but don't get crazy and drive a hundred screws through your membrane. THEN install your tile bed. THEN thinset and tape your cement board seams. THEN tile.

Start to finish, two hours max and you'll be done and getting Chinese take-out.

Kera and Kera is expensive. But how much would you save by buying off the bottom rung on the thinset ladder? Kera and Kera is your better value.

I highly encourage you to take a gander at a tile book. You've already hung the cement board without really knowing the step-by-step process.

What did you put on the walls between the cement board and your wood framing? Anything? Nothing?

Mongo,

(who never was good at estimating time lines)

Ok so here ar the pics.
I don't have anything behind the cement board but the framing. I assume I need some plastic or the sorts?
I have done several bathtub surounds but this is my first shower so a few of these steps are pretty new to me. I really apriciate the help. So if you see the one pic showing the joint between the cement board and the dry wall. You will notice a vertical chalk line. Thats how far out the tile is going. I stoped the cement board early only because thats where the closest verticle frame is. Anything really wrong with that? Its not on the side the water will be spraying but the side of the shower head.
http://www.dave.rendelldesigns.com/remodel/Bathroom.JPG
http://www.dave.rendelldesigns.com/remodel/Bathroomceiling.JPG
http://www.dave.rendelldesigns.com/remodel/Bathroomjoint.JPG

I don't have anything behind the cement board but the framing. I assume I need some plastic or the sorts? Yes, you want 6-mil poly or properly lapped tar paper.

So if you see the one pic showing the joint between the cement board and the dry wall. You will notice a vertical chalk line. Thats how far out the tile is going. I stoped the cement board early only because thats where the closest verticle frame is. Anything really wrong with that? You don't want drywall as a backer in a wet area, if you say that's a dry area, it'll be fine. As far as tileing the joint, you don;t want a vertical grout line to fall on top of the vertical joint between the cement board and the drywall, as the grout may eventually crack. If you can have a whole tile bridge that joint you'll be in fine shape.

Go online and get an installation manual for the cement backerboard that you are using. Read the fastener schedule, in terms of how far apart the screws need to be to secure the cement board to the framing. You probably need more screws that you have.

Also, no premixed anything in a wet area. No premixed thinset, grout, no mastic. All that stuff is water soluble, and I'm sure you can understand that water soluble adhesives might not be the best thing to use in a wet area like a shower.

And lastly, you do understand that the membrane on your floor needs to be sloped, right? You do the drypack preslope, then the membrane goes on top of the preslope. Then you do another layer of mud on top of the sloped membrane, and it's that second layer of mud that you'll tile on.

Read up on the secondary weep holes in your two-part clamping drain, and how to protect the weep holes from clogging.

Mongo

Thanks again for all your responses. I have removed the cement backer board and stapled some plastic up. How much of the cement backer do think I should remove so it lines up with the first layer of drypack? Or just build the sloped base and cut the backer to fit?

The grout lines will not fall on the transition between the cement board and the existing drywall.

Bill, I have another crazy question for you. Can I tile the ceiling first (before the floor and walls) in my shower? I'm asking because we need to fast track our electrical inspection so, we need to finish our ceiling to fit in the recess light trim. I don't want to rush through the whole tiling process to get to the ceiling. I can see there might be a concern with tile matching, but if I lay it out and mark everything carefully, can I do this? How about the edges and corners that meets the wall? They shouldn't touch anyway, right? Just thought I ask. Thanks!

Absolutely. Matter of fact, I'll usually do it before the walls, so the wall tile will abutt the ceiling, making it easier to caulk!!

Bill, that's good to know and I'm really relieved. So, how much space would you go to the edge with ceiling tile? 1/8" from the wall? Thanks!

I'd make sure the wall tile will cover the gap. You can take it from there. :-)

So, I'm getting ready to tile the shower ceiling. I have it all laid out. So, all I needed to do was get the non-sag thinset. Well, I can't find any (from the above) at either HD or Lowes. I read another post that someone else was having the same problem. I also checked a local tile store here and the lady didn't know what I was talking about. Is there anything else you can recommend? Would regular modified thinset work or would tiles start falling on my head? DH is asking about mastic adhesive. That doesn't sound quite right, so I need some advice, fast! TIA

-Chris

DO NOT USE MASTIC!! They won't fall on your head when you're setting them. They'll wait till you're taking a shower! (the steam will reimulsify the mastic and destroy the bond to the tile)

Regular thinset CAN be used, but the lady at the tile store CAN get it. Depending on whose thinset is available, they can get Ultralite from Mapei or 255 from Laticrete.

Thanks, Bill. After I posted, I found a place in town that has Laticrete 255. What a relief! We got a few bags, so, we're set. I'll pass along the info about the steam to the mastic. Very good to know. Again as always, thanks!

What about just using Ditra-Set to hang the kerdi and put glass tile on the ceiling? Can it hold 200 lbs of tile?

Hi Mr. Vincent,

We are currently renovating a bathroom and installing floor tiles on the ceiling, directly over the tub area. We would like to know if it is safe to install porcelain floor tiles on the ceiling that are 12" by 24". We are getting the work done by a contractor but are still concerned due to the weight of each tile weighing about 9lbs. We just want a piece of mind that these tiles shouldn't fall over our heads when we are bathing. Hope to hear from you very soon.

Regards,

Grace