Hi there! I'm Hunzi.

Yes, it's me again. I know you don't remember me, because I've been sporadically reading and planning this project for about a decade now, but it's finally going to happen!

So here's what I have. Dirt. No, really...we started with an amazing space in the corner of an unfinished basement in an 1884 farmhouse. A previous owner had installed a "shower" consisting of a raised wooden pallet type platform floor, corrugated plastic walls, and a shower fixture plumbed with garden hose from what I think were old laundry hookups. This fabulous assembly was to supplement a main floor "full bath" which had a toilet/sink/tub, but was installed with near equal quality - yes, that's really an electrical wire cutting externally across the corner of the tub! Yikes. We just lovingly call any poorly done DIY job in the house a "Mr. G--- job".

So we've spent the past 20 years, fixing up all the Mr.G jobs, and while we are also 99.9% DIY, we're card carrying complete obsessed over-engineer it types.

That amazing shower was removed post haste (one of these days I'll check to see if I took a photo), and we have made due all these years with the shower in the claw foot tub on the 2nd floor (obviously installed by pros back in the 1920's before MrG got his hands on the house), while the plans for the basement have slowly bubbled and evolved. What was originally going to be a play room for the kids (DS was only 3 when we bought the place, DD was not yet a twinkle in her daddy's eye), last year finally became a bonus room for the now DS/Grad Student to live in until he can afford his own place then its future lies in either ManCave or home gym.

Somewhere along the way, that corner with the shower evolved from really scary home to spiders to maybe we can use it as a laundry room/bath combo, to you know, we really do need a 2nd full bath in this house, since I want to remove the other (main floor) Mr.G Special Bathroom and use that space for a kitchen reno and just tuck a powder room into an old pantry.

Back to the dirt. Apparently the basement was originally non-existant. Previous home owners dug it out in stages, first to make room for a boiler and coal room added in 1925, then the rest was dug out later we suspect. Not a bad amount of space, properly dug with respect to foundations. But it must have been a dirt floor for quite a while until someone (I'm still blaming MrG (bless his heart)) poured a concrete floor - not just any old concrete floor, a "just cover the dirt - no worries about making it level or making sure there's enough thickness" concrete floor. Level wasn't in his vocabulary.

So about the time, DH decided to remove the fabulous fishing camp shower, he decided he'd remove the concrete covering the section of the floor that would become the future bathroom, because he'd have to tie into the sewer stack in several locations and gosh darn it, once he started and found the concrete varried in depth from 1.5 to 4 inches, it all had to go.

You do realize, there were years - YEARS between DH tearing out the concrete and now, don't you? I've lived with a 9x10 patch of dirt in the corner of my wavy concrete basement for at least 10yrs, maybe longer - I'm trying to black it all out.

Problem - time, money, more time, more money, trivial stuff like military service demands etc. So, I'll cut him some slack.

Still, when DS needed to return home - finally the fire of FIX the BASEMENT was lit (to DH's credit, many other projects in the house were done in the intermediate years and the basement was always a low priority). It didn't hurt that DS couldn't just move back into his old room because it is now being occupied by our 2 adorable teen aged Chinese exchange students (16 & 17 yr old girls) who moved in this fall and will live with us this year and next while they finish high school. DD is a freshman in college this year, but home frequently and wouldn't have let her brother borrow her room anyway! So the basement became priority one finally.

Finished off a living space for DS, and finalized plans for a bathroom and laundry room (now separate).

Ok, that's the backstory.

Now back to the dirt yet again. - DH is preparing to make all the stack modifications and plumbing rough-ins this weekend. (Everyone light a candle and say a prayer for us!) This will rough in the plumbing for the basement bath, the main floor powder room (goodbye MrS Special #2) and laundry room.

Next up will be pouring a new slab in the dirt space - no, really, this one will be properly thick and level.

However, now there's stuff I need to be sure of - before Dh decides to order concrete.

Since DH didn't tear out the entire basement floor (we now all say Thank You Baby Jesus!) he wants to meet up with the existing concrete level (yes, we know it's not actually LEVEL, but the laundry room section of the basement is within "You Can Fix It with SLC" range vs OMG, they dropped the part around their "floor drain" (aka the fishing camp shower drain as well - don't get me started) nearly a foot (a very wavy foot).

So QUESTION #1:
Since we can set the level of the concrete slab whereever we want (within reason), I need to know how much I need to allow for the stuff that goes over the concrete slab - the thin set, Detra/some decoupler, more thin set, plus a 1 inch hex type tile - so that I can meet up with the laundry room floor which will have SLC, plus same tile (and all required under-prep).

I'm also working with a minimal ceiling height of 7ft (remember it wasn't planned to be living space when they dug it out), so I can't get crazy and not worry about the amount of space that gets leftover between finished floor and finished ceiling.

How thick is all the usual tile on cement stuff? Assume a small hex type tile of the Home Depot variety.

I just need to know if I need to tell DH to be sure to set the top of the slab X.0 or 0.x inches below where we want the final finished floor.

Once all this OMG I HATE PLUMBING drama is over, we can discuss all the more fun parts - details on tile, all the 1000's of other things you'll realize I haven't thought about.

Goal is a not overly expensive but nice looking full bathroom - we'll reuse the toilet and tub from the MrG Main Floor Special - might upgrade the toilet eventually, but pretty sure the tub/shower combo (basic steel tub, nice shape/size/depth) is staying.

Powder room is sort of intermixed into this project, but not completely because darn-it, I need to gut the kitchen to get the PR door in the right place but at least the toilet will be roughed in to the right location and the weird combo of MrG's Main Floor Special Bath/my kitchen pantry (another story for another day), will no longer exist. And that will be Phase 2, after the basement bath and laundry project is done.

So, how thick is the tile stuff, and we'll need to chat about radiant floor heat vs something like WhisperWarm or heat lamps. (This bath will get light/moderate use once DS moves on, and there's no direct heat source in the basement - it's relatively warm & dry due to the very large, very old cast iron boiler which radiates much heat, but now that's closed off in a utility room and there are several walls between it and the bathroom - so it's cooler, but not uncomfortable in there, and I'm not noticing it feeling damp (even with the still dirt floor), but I want to be sure there aren't any issues.

Eventual look and feel of this bathroom is 1920s/Art Deco classic - not over the top, but a nod to the past. Hex tile floor, possibly unglazed, also running into laundry room, black & white color scheme - subway tiled bath, pedistal sink. Simple but we all know simple is never simple to create!

So, hopefully someone made it to the bottom of this - or you'll all just click NEXT everytime you see my name. ;-)

I've read a lot here over the years, admired many bathrooms, mostly in silent awe.

Hang in there, I'll reuse this thread for the whole basement bath adventure, which knowing us, could take the next year or two! ;-)

Here we go.
Always ;-)
Hunzi

Photo of some of MrG's fine work (Located in the 1950'sBathroomFromHell).

I don't know, maybe your Grandpa was Mr. G! But I won't hold that against you. ;-)

It will be a fun project. I have to keep telling myself that - it will be my mantra this weekend when DH and his friend begin dropping the cast iron. He thinks he can get us up and running again in 48hrs. I'm thinking that's kind of a long time to keep my fingers and my legs crossed.

All three girls (2 Chinese Daughters and CollegeGirl) will be off on a trip to walk in the March for Life in Washington DC (their Mom/"American Mum" having mercifully planned the cast iron portion of the adventure to time with them being out of town), so they'll escape the wonder of it all. DaBoy will get it all upclose and personal as it's happening about 10 feet from his bedroom but knowing him, he'll find a couch to crash on someplace for the weekend.
As for me, I'm trapped. Unfortunately, no working on my first Pink Cadillac this weekend - can't have clients over as they might notice there's no water, and there's an odd smell wafting up from the basement accompanied by cursing, nor am I allowed to run away from home as I'm on Home Depot gopher duty.

Good thing the gym is just a couple of miles away and open 24hrs. Of course, this will probably be the weekend that the water main blows out in front of the gym again and they'll have no water either. In that case I'm moving into a hotel - with room service - do we have one in town with a spa?

Oh, this will be fun.
Pray for me.

Always ;-)
Hunzi

Always ;-)
Hunzi

Photo: Fun with dirt

I've read that Ditra isn't recommended with small format tiles - I was planning to use 1 inch Hex which will be installed over a new* concrete slab** (plus SLC and possibly a radiant floor wire). So can I use Ditra or is there another better decoupling solution for smaller tiles?

*I can delay for whatever the proper cure times are for the slab, but I'm down to one full bathroom for 5-6 people until this bathroom is up and running (and the plumbing changes mean we just sacrificed the MrG Special 1950's Bathroom From Hell aka the main floor halfbath and that means we're down to only one potty and it's on the 2nd floor), so the less delay the better.

**Oh, I figured out the whole - what level to put the slab thing - before, DH wanted to meet the tile to the slab in the Laundry room and that was what all the fretting was about, but now that we're going to tile into there as well, we just have to pour equal to meet up with the Laundry room slab then SLC the both of them so they play well together (if you saw this original concrete you would cry - oh that crazy MrG!)

Always ;-)
Hunzi

For an alternative, look at Nobelseal CIS.

So is Nobelseal CIS what you use under 1 inch hex?

If not, what would you do when you're starting from scratch like we are?

Always ;-)
Hunzi
who peeked into the basement - It looks like a bomb went off! I'm glad I'm not going to have to clean up all that mess. They're almost ready to glue up the main line - which means we'll be able to use the 2nd floor bathroom tonight hopefully!

Same with insulation. Perimeter insulation if that's important regarding your climate. That'll help prevent the tile from being terribly cold underfoot.

Drainage and a sump pump. I always put drainage tubing under the slab and pitch it towards a sump pump basin set in the basement floor, so the lid is flush with the top surface of the concrete slab. Drainage pipe is pretty cheap. If you end up with water issues, you can then pop the top off the sump basin, add a pump, and there you go.

Over a large expanse of concrete slab, yes, I always prefer using a membrane. Concrete and tile don't move at the same rate, so the membrane absorbs some of the shear stresses that otherwise could fracture the thinset.

I do like the Nobel sheet membranes. I use CIS as needed for interior (in addition to Ditra which I also use), right now I have a roll of Nobeldeck membrane intended for an exterior balcony over conditioned living space. I need about 50 more degrees in air temp before I can tackle that though. It's chilly outside!

So yes, I do use some CIS, but probably more Nobeldeck than Nobel CIS.

Thanks!

We aren't pouring the whole basement, just a 8ishx10ish part of the basement where the bathroom will be. But we'll be sure to add expansion joint around the slab edge.

I've been reading here forever (really, for years!), and had done all my research on Ditra, and JUST NOW picked up on the fact that I couldn't use it with 1 inch hex. Ouch. Thank goodness for never assuming I know it all. Now I'll work on learning all the ins & outs to Nobel CIS.

This is why I love this forum - people like you who are willing to share your expertise!

Always ;-)
Hunzi

The main floor MrG's 1950's Bathroom from Hell has now been unplumbed! Opened up a bunch of room in the basement bathroom space underneath where the pipes hung down.

We've decided next up is a change of plans!

We're going to clean out the pantry closet, and go ahead and finish the powder room on the main level first (DH's idea) - it will be a faster job than the basement - which gets us back to at least one full and one half baths in maybe a 4 or 6 weeks.

So, that means I have to throw this powder room together fairly fast - ironically, we'll dismantle it again when we work on the adjacent kitchen because we need to run a beam right through the powder room (aka World's Tiniest Powder Room) in order to open up the kitchen. So I won't be putting the final finishes in just yet (reusing the toilet & the really sad cracked sink - unless I can find a decent salvage), but will still make it look as good as I can (but there will be a very funny entrance(you have to walk into the old MrG's 1950's Bathroom From Hell - which will be refitted as a pantry, and the doorway to the PR half straddles a stair cut out (what do you call those slanty bits to make headroom for people on the stairs below?) because we can't locate the door in the right place until we do the kitchen reno (there's a load bearing wall right smack in the middle of the new door location - hence the reason for that beam - needless to say, this bathroom won't qualify for any ADA ratings any time soon), but the PR will be mostly for the people who live here and those people are used to living with strange construction zones in this Shrine to Our Lady of Perpetual Renovation. We'll just call this the Temporary version of the Future World's Tiniest Powder Room)

And even with all the minor funkiness of the PR, I am yet again in awe of DH's DIY Superpowers.

Once 5-6 people (DH, me, DSGRadStudent, 2 teenage Chinese High School Exchange Students (aka the Chinese Daughters) and frequently home DDCollegeFreshman) are not all forced to stand in line for one 2nd floor full bathroom, we can get back to the full bath project in the basement.

Oh, and when that's done, the 2nd Floor 1920's Bathroom in on queue. Then the kitchen, then the PR yet again (oh and somewhere in there we'll toss in fun little summer projects like reno the dining room and the upstairs hall).

Yes, we are faithful worshipers at the Shrine of Our Lady of Perpetual Renovation.

Always ;-)
Hunzi

Ok, we've cleaned out the closet. Today I'm ordering the flooring - this one will get the same heart pine that will be in the adjacent kitchen so it will be a seamless transition once the kitchen gets done. It's just a powder room* so I'm not worried about water issues, and given we'll have more construction to do later, and I don't want to have to retile.

*actually, I guess it's more of a water closet for now since it's open to the pantry - no I don't like the combination, but it's a make due and this is better than the previous pantry/MrG's1950's BathroomFromHell combo.

I'll post photos when we're done, but it won't be one of the pretty totally finished bathrooms usually shown, because I simply can't get that door in the right place yet, and that means no door, no vanity and reusing old toilet & sink until phase 2.

I'll probably still pretty it up as much as I can put lipstick on a pig. ;-)

Always ;-)
Hunzi

Photo - funky entrance to the new powder room (yeah I know!)

Hello, I'm Hunzi, and I'm a Renovator.

Always ;-)
Hunzi

Super fast research. Assuming that the top of the vanity is 36 inches, and the faucet I was planning to use is about 4 inches more, and I'm 5-7, ummm let's put the bottom of the 30" mirror at 48 inches and I sure hope I chose right, because I can hear him in there cutting in the rough opening already.

Arg! Do tell me I didn't choose wrongly. I saw someplace people suggested 40 inches from the floor, but that's super low (my ceiling is 10 feet, so it would feel uber-asymmetrical.)

I probably have 20 minutes to change this before he'd kill me, lol.

Always ;-)
Hunzi
renovating at the speed of light

Middle of the mirror? 2/3 the way up?

Always ;-)
Hunzi
expects that question in about 24 hours. One on either side of the mirror.

So after another mad dash of research, it looks like Lowes has a similar, but smaller medicine chest - 20x26 vs the 24x30 at Home Depot, so I'm off today to pick that up and see how that feels. I'd consider building one myself, but that would take him more time and make him a bit cranky because I'd be picky with the detailing.

Good news - the wood for the floor has shipped, so it should be here by Monday and I can get it acclimating so it's ready to install about the time DH finishes the framing, plumbing and electrical.

Meanwhile, I'm on the hunt for a 24 inch vanity. DH still wants to just hang the old cracked wall sink, so I might let him just so he can see how sorry it will look, but I plan to have a Plan B in my pocket. A vanity, even a 24 inch one, would help a lot with storage issues - this is an old house - the closets are nearly non-existent, and I just gave up my biggest one for this powder room - so where to put a spare roll of TP or two is a challenge! I had hoped to find a 6 inch deep medicine chest, but I can't find one in the style/price range I want. And it looks like a framed 6 inch recessed really only has 4.5 inches of actual storage so that roll of Costco TP still isn't going to fit (5" - I checked!) So a vanity, even one with half the back cut out at 45 degrees to accommodate the basement stairs, would give me a tiny bit of hidden storage*

Question: If I do add a 24 inch vanity, plus the pretty mirror/lights...I'm toying with tiling the sink wall vs just paint. Paint would be a deep navy - something like Benjamin Moore Hale Navy or Ellen Kennon's Dean's Dream. So I picked up a sample of a nice mixed clear/frosted glass and silver metal tile mosaic** last night (I'll add a photo). It would add a little sparkle and reflect the light. Ok, the question: so if I tile, should I do the whole wall above the vanity - all 3x7feet of it (minus mirror & vanity) Remember - my vanity will be 24 inches on a 35 inch wall, so there's space all around (I'll match the wainscot below counter height), and it's a long way up. Or do I just tile up so far? I'm doing sconces on either side o the mirror, so I don't have an upper bar light to signify an end, but tiling all the way up leaves nearly 3-4 feet of blank tiled wall over the mirror. The other walls will get white wainscot*** up to probably vanity level, and then the dark blue above****

* Ironically, I had first planned this Powder Room turned 180 degrees - toilet beginning just before the stair cut out on the west end, with a tiny pedestal sink perpendicular 20-24 inches away opposite a door, but that is the door I can't put in until the kitchen reno. That bathroom would have had loads of storage because I was going to turn that large 20in deadspace behind the toilet into a cabinet that extended from tank height to the ceiling - less open space, lots more storage. The current arrangement feels less tight because there's visually 20 extra inches (floor space remains the same but wall to wall it's bigger), and lets me have a PR now vs some years hence, but the trade off is losing that storage.

** I've sort of rebelled against little glass tile mosaics in this house, because I think this is could be the deadly-trend-that-will-date-the-bathroom-to 2010's-unless-you-live-in-Florida, and I'm shooting for "You'd think it had always been there", but I admit, the sparkle and shine is seductive.

***The wainscot is still up for debate because it would divide the room vertically, but it would let me hide a cabinet in the stud cavity for the toilet brush and cleaner and maybe a plunger I hope I never require.

**** More on paint - I know it's a tiny space and a DEEP color, but nothing I do will make that 3x7 space feel truly bigger, so I'm going with making it feel old school traditional - jewel toned walls - and I plan to cover most of the painted wall with framed art work - I have a set of six horseracing prints that I've always wanted to use someplace. Pair them with another piece of subway art, a horse shoe or two, maybe a bit more stuff, and I should have a fun tiny Art gallery.

Oh who said this bathroom had to be done as a lightning round?

Always ;-)
Hunzi

photo of evil seductive tile (still in wrapper) Oooo shiny!

Polls are open for about 48-72 hours.

Always ;-)
Hunzi

Picked up a smaller medicine cabinet at Lowes - very similar, just smaller, and the silver color actually plays nicer with the chrome sconces than the Home Depot one did.

Also found a 24" vanity with a china top and fairly decent wood construction. This one doesn't have to last forever - just until we do the kitchen reno and then we can update again.

Tile is still up for vote. I think I've found a photo I'd like to hang over the medicine cabinet which would take up the big blank space over the sink and I don't think it would look as good hanging on the tile vs the navy paint. However, I do like the idea of tile to act as a backsplash (I guess I could extend the wainscot to a backsplash height.)

Thanks for chiming in.

Agreed. The tile is pretty, shiny, and sneaking up on me, but it's not the thing for this space.

Wainscot is the plan. Now we only need to decide on beadboard or board & baton (I think B&B).

Also yet another update/change (yeah, what's new?): The vanity is out. We got it unpacked, and it's really nice, but we'd have to cut way too much off for those darned stairs.

After some heated debate, we've decided to move the 1920's wall hung sink from the yet to be renovated 2nd floor bath, which was destined to be replaced, into the powder room. (This is a major win for me. This is the sink I had always wanted to use in one of the two new bathrooms - too small for the main bedroom level bath, but too cool (at least I like it) to toss (DH unfortunately has never loved it, and campaigned for something else - I had sworn to at least store it someplace on the deep basement ledges (for some future home owner to discover) if we didn't use it vs having it hit a dumpster or donation.)

That little vanity might head upstairs (it will at least get a trial look) otherwise I've sworn we'll just use the basic wall hung sink that was in the 1950'sBathroomFromHell which DH wanted to put into the Powder Room. I argued - NOohNOohheckNo. If we're going to finish a new space (even one like the Imperfect Interim Powder Room that might only last 5 to 20(knowing our record) years) we might as well try to make it look nice, and hanging a sink that looks like it belongs in seedy boy's bathroom would be just awful. (Of course, I've sworn to use that darned sink in the 2nd floor bath rather than have DH wrangle me into making decisions about that bathroom before it's time.)

Oh I'm sure someone is reading this in either amusement or abject horror - we could call this the Tales of the Ever Changing Reno Plan and sell popcorn.

Well there's nothing else new to report today - I had to go collect the college girl from school and drive her to the doctors - verdict was eye infection plus pneumonia. She's now quarantined for a week at home and fully equipped with a multitude of pills, syrups, and eye drops. (I may need to dart her with a sedative (can't you just see me with my Amazonian blow gun?) to make that girl actually rest).

A mama's work is never done.

Always ;-)
Hunzi

Plumbing is mostly done (still need to tie in at the basement level), electrical done, the drywall is going up! Yay!

He plans to finish the drywall and paint it, then we'll add the flooring (and protect it), wainscot and baseboards, paint all that, then we'll finish the floor, and put in the toilet. Maybe 2 or 3 more weeks (he's just working after work, and weekends).

And in the "of course it will go wrong" category two new additions -

1) remember the old sink in the MrG's 1950's Bathroom From Hell which we were going to use as a temporary replacement for the 2nd floor sink we're moving to the powder room? The seedy boys' room cracked wall hung sink? I set a reel of wire on the sink, and the cracked corner fell off. Sort of a combo "oh darned, now we have to replace the sink, and OMG, now we have to replace that sink!" (may just pick up a super cheap wall hung (Hello Boys' Room!) for now just for both budget concerns, and so I don't have to get seriously into planning the 2nd floor bathroom just now (because working on 2 bathrooms already is quite enough thankyouvermuch) by picking a sink when I still don't know the future layout in there.

And 2) Joy! Apparently there was a loose bracket on the main stack, so it has worked loose, stack shifted a bit and now there's a crack in the elbow on the 2nd floor closet flange - so more plumbing is in the works for this weekend or soon, replacing everything else that's old probably into the attic. This may involve considerable demo on the last standing bathroom, so we're working at all haste to finish the powder room! (I may just encourage DH to hold off on the 2nd floor repairs until we're finished just in case it mushrooms (and don't they always mushroom? Old Houses....go to change the light bulb, end up rewiring the house.) Meanwhile it's duct tape on the elbow which seems to be keeping the leak at bay (MrG and Red Green would approve!)

Progress in fits and starts.
Always ;-)
Hunzi

Drywall is done and DH painted it (and I LOVE the color). Next up is the wainscot.

Bought the replacement sink for the 2nd floor bath, so soon, he'll pull the 1920's sink out and that will give me time to clean it up a little (remove the rust around the drain and touch up with porcelain enamel repair stuff and possibly re-chrome/ or nickel the drain trap. I might also buy new faucets.

Also need to buy the frames for the wall art, because it will be far easier to hang them before the toilet and sink go in (the room is so tiny, getting a large ladder in there is a challenge.)

Progress!

Always ;-)
Hunzi

Photo: Don't let it be said I'm afraid of color. (Paint is still wet - it will dry matte.)

Wainscot is going up, but we're having an unexpected snow storm today (they called for nuisance snow, and we're getting closer to 7 inches). So unfortunately DH can't cut any wood today (on the back patio). Well he deserves a day off.

The electrical is done, so I've been able to sneak in and use the new makeup mirror! I love it. Since he insisted I choose the wiring location for it before it actually arrived (darn that MrGoFastMan!) I'm not totally in love with the placement - it's a tad too low, and too close to the sconce (and in truth the sconces aren't quite right either - needed to be a tad higher, and more centered - one is a bit off), but since this really is an interim bathroom, I'm not going to whine - If later we decide to make this bathroom more permanent, at minimum, we'll tear off the drywall on the lighting wall and adjust the sconces.

But here's the new makeup mirror.