I installed 13x36 Porcelenosa with a glassy finish on my shower walls, they seemed to be perfect. With 1/16" grout line they were a pain to install and avoid lippage. gave myself a B to B+. They also have floor tiles, very high quality and reasonably priced for the quality and style. Also installed 6x24 Daltile on another floor and they seemed fine, though I used quarter inch grout line with 50% staggered pattern. A- on this install, much easier.

Thanks for all your help! Bill, I appreciate the information. I shared it with the installer, and the floor is looking good. Grout will go in tomorrow, so I guess that will be the true test. What would I do without this forum? :)

Here is a link that might be useful: sweet chaos

Tiles are fired at extreme temperatures. As such, they tend to flex somewhat in the process. Some are actually "cut" from larger pieces to attain the slinder "wood look."

Quality varies tremendously. Best advice is to "sight down" the material to select the straightest tile. Sure, it's a "crapshoot" and the better dollar typically gets the better tile.

When you stagger them at 1/3 settings, you MAY be able to minimize the "lippage," but you "pays your money and you takes your chances..."

Can I use a true running bond then with a 12 x 24 tile if my grout lines are 3/16" to 1/4"? I don't care for the other staggered patterns.

Yes, although the lippage will be more evident than with a 1/3 stagger. Much depends on how bowed they are...

Hi there

I bought 6x24 floor porcelain tiles. I want them to b installed on my bathroom wall from bottom to top. They are heavy what kind of adhesive or thin set should i buy? and i want then to b installed in vertical position.

Thk u for your help.

To Sandra Guerrero:
I am so happy that you are so sure of yourself and went ahead and purchased your tiles before you consulted about the installation of same.
First and foremost. You need to have as close as practical, a very FLAT wall surface.
Next. You should get an experienced tile installer.
Second. You should get at least a "medium bed mortar" to handle the weight of the tiles and allow to infill any indentation in the wall surface. The "Custom" brand happens to be highly recommended, you can use any of the following three mortars; A) "Custom" Large Format Tile Mortar. B) "Custom" Complete Contact-LFT or the C) "Custom" Pro lite.
Third. Each tile should receive a full buttering of mortar before installation. The buttering shall be applied with a large notched trowel running in the same direction and the tile shall be applied with the butter ridges running vertically.
Fourth. At the very beginning you said that you wanted the tiles to be installed with a brick like running bond. If this is what you want, do NOT have the tiles off-set 50% like a common running bond. Instead, offset the tiles 33% of the length or about 1/3 its length. This will help minimize the buckling of the tiles.
Finally and most ideally. You would want your installer to use, "T-Lock" masters and adjustable wedges plus PLM crosses at the corners, which shall remained in placed untill the mortar sets.
Furthermore, you may want to log on to the following website for additional information:
www.custombuildingproducts.com
Good luck;
Rodrigo

Careful with your stagger or off set. Some companies now are specify less than 1/3 running bond or 33.3%. 33.3% is the max you can go - it does not mean it is recommended.

I'm wrapping up a job with I Marmi 1'x2' tile from Italy. They want max 6" offset or 25% running bond.

Here I'm playing with the tile trying to find a nice flow to the veining detail. Thinner tiles tend to bow a little more. We just installed some last year - the wood grain look and the tile man had to open up the grout joint a bit because the tiles did have some crowing to them.

Some CAN do a 1/3 off set, and some can't. Easiest way to tell is lay some tiles out on a flat table, and see how they set to one another.

I just read the box Bill. The part where it said no more than a 6" off set. Since the tile is 24" that works out to a 25% running bond.

First time I have seen this labelled on a tile box.

As I said, some can, and some can't. For those that DON'T state on the box, my suggestion was the easiest way to tell.

My suggestion was easy too. They print the recommendation on the box and I just repeated it.

It was the first time I saw it. The 25% off set.

That is why I shared the info.

Have a nice day, John.

Beautiful shower, Bill.......

Thanks :-)

hi

6x24 porcelaim tiles

the pro said to use MARBLE, GRANITE & TRAVERTINE PREMIUM MEDIUN BED MORTAR . manufacturer CUSTOM BUILDING PRODUCTS.

Bill where do u live? ill hire you… good job!!

Western Maine. :-)

Don't take this as a slam about either John or Bill's work---but looking at the tile in the shower stall that is laid on the diagonal--like herringbone pattern-

Does anyone else think it looks a little off-center? I read the thread (mostly) and understand that the tiles themselves often dictate what pattern will be used because of the off-set rule...

But I think I would feel dizzy in that shower since the design is not centered... maybe I am just too OC/DC to choose larger format tiles. If so, this was informative thread since we planning master bath remodel.

loves2read-- It is. I got this same criticism on a facebook page called "tile geeks". :-) I DID have it centered at first. It would have resulted in small triangles up both corners, floor to ceiling. SO I took down everything I'd put up at that point, and moved it all over about 2 inches off center, and it came out a whole lot nicer. If you look on the bottom left, you see the small triangles that would have gone top to bottom. In the center of the wall, you see the thinset coming to a point at the original layout center, also the center of the wall, and then just to the left, what ended up being the permanent layout center.

There's always a reason when I deviate from the norm. But suffice to say, all installations get laid out with respect to what will look best with that individual installation. To me, the rules are recommendations. The only steadfast rule that must never be broken is that it must look as good as it possibly can when finished.

too far away , Bill… I'm in NY

Not sure where you are in new York, but I know excellent installers in Albany and Long Island.

Bill, do you know any in Westchester County, NY? Do any of the pros know any good tile installers in Westchester County? I'm just starting the process of redoing my bathroom. Leaky shower pan ... again!

Seems to me I DO know someone, I just can't remember who it is!! LOL Damn CRS Syndrome setting in!!

Can Hardi-backer be installed without thinset on a floor?

NO....

What Avanti said.

"....Can Hardi-backer be installed without thinset on a floor?...."

It can (but should it?) and it is (but is this right?) all the time. Many people use a few screws and a some construction adhesive. This installation common among people not understanding deflection and bond strength of floor assemblies.

Thinset under the concerte board however, fills voids in the plywood and helps secure the concrete board to the floor. It is best to clean the floor, fill the gaps in the plywood sheets (1/4" recommended), check that the subfloor is not flexing and then install the CBU. I like to nail or screw these sheets off from the center out.

In this photo my youngest worker is helping her dad out by getting the edges installed. Installing Cement Board more fun I'm told than a Boring barbie Game.

I don't care if it's done all the time or not. NO backerboard manufacturer will honor any warranty without it. I thought you were the by the book guy, John. And using construction adhesive is even worse than using nothing at all.

"....And using construction adhesive is even worse than using nothing at all...."

Bill I was saying people can use it and they do. I did not say it's right ( I edited my comment above so it is more obvious). I have even watched a DIY TV show people how to do it that way. I have heard people at Home Depot tell people to do it that way. If your read my post I say that it is done that way by people who do not understand how it is properly installed. Then I show a picture of my little girl helping me do it right.

I'm by the book on a lot of things not all. Installing concrete board with construction adhesive is not something I recommend at all. The fact that construction adhesive expands while it cures I think is the number one reason these installs fail.

I think Whip forgot to add: " but it's not recommended "

On purpose , or not, is the interesting question.

I know I am very late on my response but I am very experienced in construction and dealt with this recently. I ran this issue by one of americas top professional designers to verify my opinion. Do not let anyone try to convince you this is a normal or acceptable phenomenon. You should not accept bowed tile as it is faulty. This problem can be caused by the tiles being improperly packaged or stacked during transport or storage. The tiles should be returned and replaced with flat tile. if these are used on the floor, they can crack and cause a lip that will chip, catch feet or stain. In brick pattern on a wall, they will produce a sharp edge suceptable to staining and chipping.

I'm sorry, but it IS a normal "phenomenon" (I prefer to call it condition), caused by baking in the kiln. It's something that happens with ALL elongated large format tiles, to the extent that many manufacturers even state in their literature not to use an offset grout joint by more than 33% because of the inherent lippage you can expect. I don't know where you get your information, but it's not from TCNA, that's for sure.

Kevin Wolter-- This has been put out by Daltile, The National Tile Contractors Association (NTCA), and Tile Council of North America (TCNA):

Rectified tiles continue to increase in popularity, particularly in
the commercial arena. For years, the industry and Dal-Tile have
recommended that Rectified tiles can be installed with a 1/16" grout
joint. However, from the contractor�s perspective, installations
have become more time consuming and difficult to ensure compliant
installations when attempting to install a Rectified tile with a 1/16"
grout joint. In response, the new TCNA (Tile Council of North America)
Handbook addresses this issue by recommending that the width of the
grout joint used be determined by the ANSI A108.02 specification which
states that the actual grout joint size shall be at least 3 times the
actual variation of facial dimensions of the tile. To simplify:
Rectified tiles, regardless of size, shall have a grout joint width no
less than 1/8". As a result, Dal-Tile is changing its recommended grout
joint width to be 1/8" for all of its Rectified tiles.

In addition, we will no longer recommend in our literature that
Rectified and Non-Rectified large format rectangle sizes (Ex: 12" x 24")
can be installed in a brickwork or running bond pattern where the
overlap is 50%. The reason for this is that the allowable warpage for a
tile based on ANSI specifications can create an installation issue when
large format rectangular tiles are installed in a brickwork/running bond
pattern. This allowable warpage can create a scenario where lippage is
inevitable given the overlapping pattern. To mitigate this effect,
Dal-Tile will be removing the brickwork pattern from our catalogs and
literature. This will be replaced by a new pattern that will be referred
to as a "Staggered" brickwork pattern where the overlap does not exceed
33%, and the grout joint width must be a minimum of 3/16".

Tell your top designer they're mistaken.

Can 12x24 in tile overlap 1/4 [25%]. ?

No reason why not.

Ran into the same issue of tile bowing in the middle - installer turned down most of the tile we'd pick for that very reason, then after I put my foot down and bought 6x30 Gazzini Marmi rectified tile to lay on the floor in herringbone pattern (looked stunning in the showroom) he complained that it took us too long to choose tile and disappeared. This person was recommended as top tile professional in the Tri-State area and previous clients had only good things to say about his work, yet he clearly did not want to install tile that bowed in the middle. Such tile is making up most of the market these days (go try finding beautiful 12x12 porcelain - and post a link here if you do!), does this mean it is all defective?!? Why homeowners should sacrifice either color/design or pattern?

To tell you the truth, I've got a way to beat this bowing, but especially for someone DIYing, it can be an expensive proposition, and that's the leveling systems that are out now. I have two. One is the original TLS (Tuscan Leveling System), and the other is the inventer's next generation called MLT (mechanical lippage tuning) System. They're a system of straps and caps that pull the edges of adjoining tiles up flush to each other, and will actually take that bow in the tile, out, until the thinset dries, and then they'll stay by themselves. With these systems you can have any offset you like, and not just with plank tiles. It works great with 12x24's, as well. Any large rectangular tiles. If your installer doesn't have one of these systems, you might recommend to him that he invest in one.

Sounds like a great solution to the problem! I can see that tiles are bowing slightly on the back wall because of difference in lighting, but overall this look great as it is one continuous pane with no corners sticking out, great job!

Bottom line - for a bad dancer his male parts are in the way, good tile professional knows how to work with any material.

bending porcelain tile soon to have an ANSI spec?

"...the other is the inventer's next generation called MLT (mechanical lippage tuning) System."

MLT is a slick system. I like that the straps are reusable.

Not me-- I prefer the one piece straps. Too much time taken putting the pieces together with the 2 piece. Right now Mick's making me a bunch of caps with my logo on them. :-)

Are these the same thing?

Joseph, yes, those are two versions. Seam Clip on the left (the red, white, and blue clips). Different colors for different thicknesses tile. It's a single-use system. Set the clip and snap the wings closed with your fingers. No installation tool needed.

The TLS "cap and strap" system is on the right. Caps are red, "T" straps are white. Caps are reusable. The strap is single-use. You need an installation gun/tool to snug it up, they are under the presenter's hand.

Has anyone seen 1/4inch and 1/3 inch tile placement running controlled pattern using 12inch by 24 inch tiles.

Mongo-- that's actually the TLS, but still just as good. The straps and caps, anyway. Not a big fan of the clips.

I thought Joe was just asking if the stuff in the photo was a tile leveling system. I figured it was easy enough to see the boxes and promo literature to see it was Pearl/TLS.

Ill use the straps on the FAR left. A simple time tested 2 strap system holds stuff in place LOL

I love the pictured straps.