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zadeluca

pouring concrete floor/finishing basement

zadeluca
13 years ago

I will try my best to make this as short as possible, but will probably fail to do so. Thank you in advance to anyone who takes the time to read this.

My house: Upstate NY, 128 years old (1882), 2 story, approx. 33'x24'. The foundation walls are stone, 7' tall with no footers, and 2' thick making the usable basement area 29'x20', 580 sq. ft. The floor is compacted dirt over a failed 1-2" concrete slab, sloped heavily (I do live on a hill) from back left corner at a height of 6'4" to front right corner at 7'0", where the bottom of the foundation wall is visible. The foundation extends above grade 1' on the high (left) side of the house, and 2' on the low (right) side. I get water from pretty much all directions, through cracks in the walls and also up from below the floor, but it makes its way to the front right corner and into a floor drain.

My plan: Dig out the dirt/concrete to the bottom of the foundation walls, and continue digging down (but at a 45-degree angle away from the walls) an additional 4" for a total hight of 7'4". Dig trenches 8-12" from the wall and install PVC drain tile on top of geotextile liner and surrounded by 3/4" crushed stone. Cover entire floor with 4" of the same 3/4" crushed stone, up to the level of the bottom of the walls. Tamp the stone. Cut 4" wide strips of 2" thick rigid foam board insulation, lay them on edge around the perimeter, against the base of the walls. 6 mil poly vapor barrier, wire mesh, and finally, the concrete floor, 4" thick done in a single pour. Final height will be 6'8". I can then remove the insulation board, fill in the gap with more crushed stone, and then water seeping in through cracks in the walls will have a way to reach the drain tile.

Later on: Construct interior walls around the perimeter on the edge of the slab, leaving the 2" gap between the studs and the foundation walls. Vapor barrier on the cold side of the walls can be tied in with the barrier coming up from around the slab, and will continue over the top of the foundation walls, stopping just before the sill plate. This should prevent moisture problems in the walls as a result of the water coming through the foundation, but I will also use a vapor barrier on the warm side, before the drywall, where it is normally supposed to be. I will insulate the wall cavity with spray-foam, probably. And I might do the same with the rim joists, as well as caulk where the sill meets the top of the foundation to try to minimize the number of bugs that make their way in. In my basement there are wolf spiders the size of tennis balls.

Other thoughts: I will dig a sump pit and install a pump in the corner where there is a floor drain currently. This past spring the main sewer line was blocked by tree roots, so the water coming through the walls and the ground water had no where to drain to, in addition to all the water we used in the house. 8" deep water putting out the pilot light on my hot water heater was the only reason I ever found out - not fun. I will also install a clean-out access pipe or 2 in the drain tile. May not ever need it, but it is so easy to do at this stage that there is no reason not to.

My questions/concerns:

1) What the heck can I do with all of the dirt/concrete mix that I remove?

2) Is my plan for digging safe? I do not want to affect the foundation at all much less risk the house collapsing. But as far as I understand for going below the base of the wall, digging away at a 45-degree will allow the remaining earth to support the foundation. Thoughts? And actually, before I even get to the bottom of the wall, is it likely that the 2-8" of dirt/concrete that is currently there is doing anything to support the walls? I don't want them bowing or sliding, but at 2' thick I have a hard time believing anything like that would happen.

3) I can't think of any other specific questions right now, but does anyone see any problems with my plan? I do not do this kind of work for a living but am a DIYer and have done tons of research if you cannot tell. I mostly just want to hear from those more knowledgeable that I am on the right track.

I have read on this forum and others that the proper fix is to correct water problems from the outside and I understand and agree with this statement. However, in this area houses are cheap despite what you might have heard about NY. Decent homes like mine (3 BR in 1400+ sq. ft.) are easily found for 100k or less. I cannot justify the cost of excavating and sealing around the outside, nor the risk considering the age of the home.

I will be doing the entire job by myself and/or with the help of 1-2 friends, with the exception of actually pouring/leveling the concrete (and possibly tamping the stone) and spraying in the insulation. For those things, I will leave it to the pros.

Thanks again to anyone who made it this far without saying to themselves "F$%# that I'm not reading all that!" I would appreciate any feedback you might have.

Zach

Comments (6)

  • fnmroberts
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My belief is that rubble-stone foundations are best left undisturbed, especially below grade.

    You have your wish list. My recommendation is that you have a certified civil and structural engineer examine both the soil and structural integrity of your home in consideration of your intentions.

    Much of what you wish to do, if it can be done, will likely need to be accomplished within a very short timeframe - you have to keep the existing foundation stabilized! Qualified contractor, not a DIY project. All I can encourage is get LOCAL EXPERT advise before you begin.

    I live in N. IL. Our son owns a home the approximate age of yours. Basements then were cellars and weeped in wet season. The advise I share is based on guideance from an architect who evaluated their home for an addition.

    Hope this rather negative reply is taken as a recommendation to be cautious, not a put down on your desired result. Good luck.

  • worthy
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I wouldn't touch a rubble foundation from the outside. Instead, follow the procedures in the linked piece below from Building Science Corp.


    102-year old rubble foundation collapses
    after excavation for new home next door.
    Photo: Winnipeg Free Press

    Here is a link that might be useful: Rubble Foundations

  • worthy
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If this excavation is from the inside, the 4" drop all around--45˚ slope or not--is likely sufficient to undermine the foundation. A lot depends on the nature of the soil. I've lowered basement floors more than a foot. But only following the design of a structural engineer involving an incredible amount of rebar and many yards of concrete and brick foundation walls.

    We are anon. voices on the net. Contact your local building officials or a structural engineer for advice.

  • zadeluca
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you again for taking the time to read and reply.

    I spoke with the codes dept in my Village to see if I needed any permits for this kind of work, and they said no, but the inspector and I started talking about exactly what I planned on doing. I asked him about it, specifically focusing on the digging portion and whether it will compromise the structure. He said no, but I do not know if he qualifies a structural engineer.

    I appreciate your concern, I will try to find a structural engineer to investigate further.

    In your opinion(s), what if I modified the plan slightly and stopped digging at the base of the wall, rather than going down the additional 4"? My maximum height would now be only 6'4", but I would definitely settle for that if it were safer. Would I still be tempting fate?

  • worthy
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The main problem with excavating a rubble foundation is that they were usually built by filling a trench with stone, so they are not self-supporting.

    The question that arises here is if you actually have a rubble foundation or a stone foundation laid with relatively regular courses. Perhaps the foundation was already dug out by a previous owner--hence the 8" variance in height.

    The village official says "no problemo". What is his liability if he's wrong?

    By contrast, a structural engineer who draws a plan and puts his PE stamp on it has a financial liability if he's wrong and should have liability insurance. Is saving the few hundred dollars on expert on the site advice worth the risk? BTW, don't expect any sympathy from your home insurer if things go badly.

  • zadeluca
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well I do plan to hire an engineer to check it out and provide guidance, you are absolutely correct that the few hundred dollars it will cost is well worth it. I'm just trying to do my own research and planning beforehand wherever possible, to ensure I know all of the right questions to ask.

    Hmm, I was thinking stone and rubble foundations to be the same thing, but your description does not appear to be how mine is built. I've added a link to a photo album. Does it give any clues? The only thing that looks strange to me is there is a bulge in the back wall. I was told that a long time ago there was a coal shoot there, and the bulge is a just how it was filled in.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Pictures of my foundation