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jp2969

Basement Insulation Vapor Barrier

jp2969
12 years ago

I am finishing a room in my basement and was wondering about vapor barrier. It is a walkout with some walls (all block) entirely above grade. I "dry lock" painted the interior then glued 3/4 TG foam on block then built 2x4 walls on top of dricore flooring then fiberglass ins (no vb) in the stud cavity. I noticed that moisture has condensed on the foam behind the fiberglass. I'm guessing that I should be using a vb. I thought the foam would be warm enough to stop condensation. The house was built in 2007 we are in north central Ohio. Any ideas?

Comments (9)

  • worthy
    12 years ago

    A minimum thickness of 1"-1.5" XPS would have been more effective in your climate. It is very possible that the moisture you are seeing would not be condensing if a tight air-barrier, such as taped sealed drywall, were in place over the fg.

    To be more certain of forestalling moisture problems, you can either remove the stud wall to increase the thickness of the XPS or use a moisture tolerant insulation in the stud bays--either more XPS or less costly expanded polystyrene (EPS) which, depending on density, has an R Value of up to 3.92 per inch. (See Table 2, example 4 in the linked document below.)

    Adding a poly vapour barrier all but guarantees problems. As Yost and Lstiburek point out in the linked publication from Building Science Corp., researchers have realized that "a vapor barrier (usually polyethylene) on the interior side of the basement wall assembly inhibits drying of the wall more than it prevents wetting of the wall."

    Here is a link that might be useful: Basement Insulation Systems

  • andrelaplume2
    12 years ago

    that scares me...similar situation but I used 1.5" foam and made sure I sealed the bottom....perhaps 3/4" was not enough....in your case wouldn't the vapor barrier just seal the moistue/mold in the stud cavity...perhaps better off pulling the fg and putting another 1" of foam between studs...expensive though...not sure....

  • jp2969
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Your thoughts are pretty much what I was thinking. The fiberglass is already down. I think I will let it dry and then add somemore foam. I even had condensation on the foam on a below grade wall, hard to believe 3/4 is not enough there, its not even cold out yet. Thanks for your help.

  • andrelaplume2
    12 years ago

    I'd do a search....sounds like something else may be brewing down there...

  • worthy
    12 years ago

    condensation on the foam on a below grade wall, hard to believe 3/4 is not enough there

    If you read the BSC material you will see that the recommendation is a minimum 1"-1.5" in a cold climate. As well, since the foam is exposed to the interior air, rather than behind an air barrier,there is more moisture now than would be there behind the drywall.

    Furthermore, there may be outside air penetrating cracks between the sills and block. This area should be foamed and/or caulked, as should the rim joist itself.

  • jp2969
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Rim joist has 2" foam and is caulked along with putting the original fiberglass back. The sill plate is also caulked. I couldnt believe the amount of air that was leaking through the sill plate when I did it. I need to check the humidity down there. Basement is dry with no odors, I get some moisture on the windows and door glass occasionally but not terrible. I'm looking into a hrv, I cant seem to find much good information on them. Thanks again for all the help.

  • worthy
    12 years ago

    The basement certainly sounds well sealed.

    HRVs are useful when the house is really tight; a subdivision house built to Code typically isn't tight enough to worry about air quality. But you already know that from your experience in the basement.

    See link for a Fine Homebuilding article on HRVs.

    Here is a link that might be useful: HRVs How they work

  • jp2969
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    As well, since the foam is exposed to the interior air, rather than behind an air barrier,there is more moisture now than would be there behind the drywall.

    I agree, I work construction comercialy and have seen many places where there are block wall above grade with block sealer (paint), metal stud walls, fiberglass ins (no vb), drywall and frp. In the winter there will be ice on the block where they are grouted. It just scares me to trap moisture in a wall. Id rather be safe than sorry.

  • worthy
    12 years ago

    I'd rather be safe than sorry.

    And the safest system is all foam, no fiber glass, no vapour barrier.

    The problem with using a vapour barrier in all but extremely cold climates is twofold: 1) some moisture gets through the barrier no matter how tight it's installed. For instance, moisture rises from the ground through capillary wicking through the concrete. (Concrete, unless coated or covered is permeable.) With a barrier to the inside and the pressure differential always from the outside to the inside below grade, the moisture has no way to escape. 2) above grade, through diffusion, moisture is always moving from warmer to colder in the summer, thus trapping moisture behind the vapour barrier. This is less of a problem in the winter as the interior air is drier.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Basement Insulation Systems