Huh, that's new. As a landlord, if your credit were good, no way would I turn you down for making 'too much money'. That's ridiculous. Unless, of course, you're applying for low income housing or some type of assistance? That's the only scenario I can see that this particular rejection would 'fit'.

Yeah, at the time I was naive. I though of low income housing as projects way down town and such. They look like regular apartment complexes but they are 'tax credited' or set asides. Where I live now, they told me I was just beloew the maxible allowable income ceiling. Luckily the other place I'm going to doesn't have that issue. As long as I an make the rent and the bills, they are statisfied. The working single guy always seems to get hit the hardest. It's like I'm being punished for being resposnible and self sufficient. All I need is a decent place to live at that I can realistically afford.

I may not be understanding your problem here. You say, "I would have to pay the rent in full." because your income is too high. So?? So you CAN move there and pay the full amount but you do not want to do that?

In my city, there is some housing where a certain percentage of the units have to be set aside for low income tenents, and the rest are rented at full price. Anyone can live there. Not everyone gets a "break".

Some housing is set aside ONLY for low income tenents. You must meet the income guideines.

Or there are restrictions. Some low income housing is reserved only for the elderly.

There is some gorgeous housing near me that is reserved only for the elderly and/or handicapped. I'm not going to whine that "They told me that I am too young to live there. It's not fair!" "How come guys who are blind or have both their legs chopped off, get such great deals on apartments?"

Subsidized housing is either *project based* or *voucher based* and you do not fit the income guidelines to qualify for rental assistance. So what is your question here?

vw-driver, maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it sounds like you are complaining that needy people are getting help.
I can't say I can sympathize with you.
If you don't need help to pay your bills, then why do you expect help?

The white single male gets no breaks?

Low income housing is a federal clasification, it has nothing to do with race/ sec/ parental status.

Low income by fed guidelines
http://www.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ope/trio/incomelevels.html

To live in an apartment the rent should be 30% of your income or less, owning a home 35% of your income or less.

The working single guy gets almost all the breaks! You should have plenty of disposable income, no family to support, etc.

A parent has HUGE child expenses, and most single parents seem to be women. Try working a full time job and pay all child expenses.

I take a day off each week and have two children. Since I am able to take that one day off I save over $5,000 in childcare! It's not about the money for me but understand the need for affordable housing.

I have no sympathy for you at all.

They told me that I am too young to live there. It's not fair!" "How come guys who are blind or have both their legs chopped off, get such great deals on apartments?"

Bud,this is the funniest thing i have ever read on this forum,thanks for the laugh!

Sory that 'I would pay" was a type o Actually I'm always ready and willing to pay in full.

While I don't necessarily agree with vw driver, I think nfllifer is a little bit ridiculous too. I am a woman too, married with 2 young children. It is not society's responsibility to make sure that you have housing. Why did you have kids when you can't afford housing or childcare? It is this "entitlement" mentality that is wrong with the US now a days. DON'T HAVE KIDS IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD EVERYTHING THAT GOES ALONG WITH THEM! It is not the rest of ours' responsibility to take care of you. Yeah I get a little teed off when I go to the grocery and see people using food stamps that have fake nails, nike shoes and are smoking!!!! The welfare system was meant to help people get on their feet, not a way of life!

Laneym,the welfare system is entirely different then subsidized housing. Not ALL women on it were single and had kids.Many of them were married or something and their husband's died.Many on it are Seinor citazens who cant afford to pay a higher rent. Many are simply families who are struggling a bit at one point in their life and need a little help.
Welfare is when you are getting "free money"...subsidized housing,you still pay rent,just not more then a certain percentage of your income.
Frankly where I live,I think EVERYONE should be entitled to subsidized housing.$1,200.00 a month for a crappy apartment? I dont think so!

Posted by laneym: DON'T HAVE KIDS IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD EVERYTHING THAT GOES ALONG WITH THEM! It is not the rest of ours' responsibility to take care of you.
++++

I am assuming that you have private tutors for your kids and do not send them to public schools? They do not eat school lunches which are subsidized by the gov even though the parents pay part of the expense? They never use the school nurse and you pay for all their vaccinations? You pay for limos instead of having them use the school bus? They don't use the library for their homework and you buy them all of the books they want to read? No skating lessons at the park, you hire an instructor for them? You Pay for EVERYTHING, right? Good for you that you can afford it, and not have to rely on the taxpayers for help in educating your children!

I have no children of my own, and one of the reasons my property taxes have shot up recently is because of the burden the schools in the area are causing. There is a new wave of families moving into my suburb and they all have families of young children. I'm paying for all that, even though almost all of them have their 'husbands to count on for everything'.

I'm not complaining, I just explaining that most families draw more goverment aid than they realize.

And what on earth would you do if your husband DIED or he just decided to leave you? I have a friend who's huband died and left her with a 5 y/o and a teen with cerebal palsy. Her healthcare insurance ended when her husband died since it was tied to his job. What kind of job can one get when they are in their 30's and they have no skills and no work history?

Our government has a safety net.

Schooling to obtain job skills. Childcare. Subidize housing. Without these things people could not get back on their feet. She now works as a nurse and makes more money than I do.

Without that saftey net, I suppose they could have just huddled in a doorway to sleep at night and died and early death due to no healthcare.

Too bad about that pesky cancer that killed her husband, hey, she should have used her head and thought about that before she fell in love, got married and started a family..............pretty shortsighted eh?

Also realize that many homeless people DO have jobs. They just do not make enough money to pay for all the neccessities.

And BTW coolmama, subsidized housing IS "free money". The landlord/owner of the apartment sets the rent prices and with those who pay less than the set rent price, the gov comes in and makes up the difference to the landlord.

By doing it in a more round about way, ie; giving extra money directly to the person so they can pay their rent, did not work out. The people usually spent the extra money on other stuff and still could not make their rent. (Yes, people are idiots.) Now the money goes directly to the landlord and does not pass through the recipient at all where it has the potential to be diverted. So in effect, it is really giving "free money" but the recipient does not touch the money.

Sure the gov progams get abused by people.....But, there is pleanty of corporate welfare that gets abused too. Most of my relatives are farmers and your should hear them complain about some of the town people who get subsidized housing and other aid.........but they don't mind running those $40,000 checks to the bank that the gov gives them some years, NOT TO FARM! They also do not realize that the Food Stamp Program was originally set up and designed as aid to farmers so that they could unload their crops at higher prices making themselves a tidy profit.

And, yeah, I get a little teed off too, when I go to the grocery and see people using food stamps that have fake nails, nike shoes and are smoking!!!

"And, yeah, I get a little teed off too, when I go to the grocery and see people using food stamps that have fake nails, nike shoes and are smoking!!!"

I dont know where you guys live,but where I live,the people on food stamps and stuff arent like that.They are mostly old people or people with disabilities and the occasional family that has too many kids.

Also,they have "capped" the amount of welfare people receive. Meaning,they used to give people more money for having more kids.So some people took advantage of that and kept having more kids.
Now,even if you have more kids,you will only get the same amount of money.To discourage people from having kids just to get money.(and they needed to do this!)

As a woman who had to spend a few years getting subsidies to support the three children my 'wonderful loving' husband wanted so badly and promised to support, I resent your characterization of all single mothers as lazy wh***s who do nothing but push out kids (intentionally of course because having kids is such a blast) and draw welfare checks or housing subsidies.

It is to the benefit of society that my children were able to receive the basic necessities while I struggled to support them on the meager living I could eak out. After a few years, my ex stopped working, lied continuously, chased women and generally made life unbearable. Although divorcing him was not anything close to where I wanted to be at that time, it was the best decision and one I had delayed far too long.

My kids are grown and are healthy and ready to enter higher education. Without the stability that some assistance programs offered, I'm sure they would be criminals today, caught up in the penal system and costing the taxpayer thousands of dollars a month.

I also am a small business owner and have been self supporting for years.

On the contrary, my ex has been able to elude paying child support for years, has never taken any responsibility for his children in anyway and to this day runs around happy and carefree living life as he pleases and might I add also is a regular tax evader as well. I sacrificed twenty years of my life to raise children that someone else besides me promised and had a duty to be responsible for. He has sacrificed nothing.

The next time you see a single mother, wonder where the father of those children is and what he's doing that very day. Starting another dysfunctional family with another woman somewhere? Absconding on child support payments and thus forcing the family into poverty?

Think first before you judge.

Who's judging? And who are you posting too???
I made a comment that they made a law so people CANT keep having more kids to get more money.If you arent someone who would do that~why are you taking offense? You cant deny there WERE indeed people who took advantage of the system~no one said everyone does.
I personally,would never judge.And to be honest,the having fake nails and smoking thing bothered me.Just because people get assistance doesnt mean they cant spend some money on things for themselves too.Not like fake nails and cigerettes cost all that much!
I also dont like the light that has been cast on people who need assistance,and those who do judge better hope they never need it themselves.

My husband lost his job unexpectedly when our son was only 2. It was horrible! We had to use food stamps for a year while he went back to school to finish his degree. My gosh, I do not know how we would have made it without them. We didn't have more kids during that time, nor did we buy anything we didn't need to buy. We never wanted to be on them, but, we needed to eat and feed our little one. My husband happily graduated college, got a wonderful paying job and I smiled all the way to the food stamp office to tell them we didn't need them or the medicaid anymore. Just know, there are some of us out there that have tried and succeeded to use aid for what it was intended for, just in the rough patch in life.

Can't afford the child care if your wife works??? Can't YOU watch your own kids while your wife works? Why is it that men think they are not responsible for helping with child care?

Quit smoking and you'll have an extra $200/yr.

Most people smoking are not buying them from Indian Reservations and are paying at least $6 pack.

I guess this is where I differ from arichard21.

I have to much pride to accept a hand out such as food stamps. Get a second job! Jobs are not hard to find and not having an education is a terrible excuse.

I believe everyone getting foodstamps should be forced to not buy alcohol or cigaretts.

I know many families with out any education that make it just fine. Immagrant workers with large families own homes. I just sold one... Both parents work at a blue collar job. Dad takes the first shift, Mom works the thrid shift. This way someone is always home with the children. They also don't waste their money on wants.... like smoking.

You put yourself in this hole. Start digging.

Would you still be smoking without any free handouts?

so what about people on foodstamps who go to the movies? or buy a new dvd, or spend money on anything entertainment related? yes i know cigaretts are NOT entertainment, but they fall close to the same catagory. and maybe no one saw where i said my wife was LOOKING FOR WORK. and i do work 2 jobs.

the point is people are too quick to judge others who recieve help.

it sounds like most peoples opinion is that someone who recieves help should not do anything for entertaimnent because they should not have ANY EXTRA MONEY TO SPEND. we should sell our $85000 and $10000 car so we can buy food, then go live in a $250 a month 1 bedroom apt with 5 people and buy a 1982 ford escort thats falling apart for $300?

if i stopped smoking i could buy an extra $10 of groceries a month. so i will not get food stamps anymore, then i will quit and 5 of us will eat for $10 a week.

WE ARE GOOD HONEST PEOPLE WHO DO NOT DRINK, DO NOT BUY EXPENSIVE THINGS, DO NOT GO TO THE MOVIES BUT ONCE A YEAR, DONT TAKE VACATIONS, NOTHING!

ya'll are way too quick to pass judgment on people.

There is no excuse for people on food stamps to be going to the movies or to buy a new dvd. Ha ha ha. Television doesn't cost what movies do. Kids can read books. Play in the yard. Family can go for a walk. Buy a new DVD??? ROTLF. Totally not necessary. How did they buy the fancy new DVD player to play it on? There are plenty of ways the family could entertain themselves without spending oddles of money.

A family of five CAN eat for the $10/wk that you speak of. All you have to do is use your brains and not buy convenience foods and soda pop and chips. Since your wife is a homemaker she has plenty of time to make things from scratch and shop the sales and even grow some of your own food. Yeah it will be tough - you won't be eating steaks. LOL. Just lots of fresh wholesome fruits and veggies and chicken and fish, homebaked bread and homemade soups and casseroles. You won't die.

You attitude that you have a right to have a budget allowance for "entertainment" is rediculous when you are not meeting your minimun needs like buying food.

If you don't know how to budget check out the 'Money Saving Tips Forum' here. Lots of tips, like setting your thermostat down in the winter and wearing a sweater. Buy things second hand. Don't buy things on credit. That is just throwing money away. It is always cheaper to buy an auto for CASH. Of all the used cars I bought I never got a lemon. Or use public transporation if it is available in your city. I've done it. I've lived it. Half the clothing in my closet comes from Goodwill, the other half from Walmart or the Target sale rack.

I remember a while back our local paper had an article about how many students recieving finacial aid signed up for the university's 'Cancuun Spring Break' trip. There was an outcry of disent, but there were those who said that the 'poor students' who didn't want to go out and get jobs, NEEDED a way to "unwind" and "have some fun". Geeesh.

My brother bought a car for $25. Yes, that is twenty-five dollars. Hasn't needed a repair yet. Sure it is old and ugly, but holds five people and it gets him to his meager factory job, and then shuttles him to his second part time job as a dishwasher at a hospital.

I wait tables for a living and lots of my co-workers are working there as a second job to make ends meet. Lots of the women work nights waiting tables while their husband watches the kids.

One woman there works TWO jobs and her husband works as a cook at another place. They take care of child care while both are away from the house by ' free renting' a room out to a student who watches the kids in the evening while they are both gone in exchange for money rent. The student does their homework while the kids sleep and they are all safe and sound. The student even does housework! Be creative and you can come up with ideas to make ends meet.

I know a couple who BOTH work during the day while the kids are in school and on weekends they both work at a club. He bartends and she coat checks. THIS is what they do for entertainement and socializing! They get to hear the bands and chat with people they know. They come home with enough to pay the babysitter and have extra money for little luxuries. They can actually make money by going out to clubs, if you are willing to do some work. They still spend plenty of time with their kids in the evenings the rest of the week.

You say, "It sounds like most peoples opinion is that someone who recieves help should not do anything for entertaimnent because they should not have ANY EXTRA MONEY TO SPEND." Right. You are correct. Spending money on entertainment is unnecessary if you can't meet you other obligations and responsibilites. There is plenty of free stuff to do with all your extra time.

BTW, I got my computer for free because someone was throwing it out. How much did yours cost?

This is getting outrageous. DVDS cost 5 dollars at times where I live. And some of you think that is considered a lavish thing for a poor person to have? Geez,I'm glad YOU arent running the country.
Maybe people wouldnt need assistance if rent hasnt more then doubled in ten years,yet no one wants to even raise minimum wage a freakin dollar! How about the fact that there is almost no more MIDDLE CLASS??? You are either rich or poor.
That HAS to say something.

A free country...yet no one can afford to live in it.

I'm sorry, if you can't afford FOOD, then you can't afford to add another DVD to your collection. Check out DVDs from the library - it's free.

Google "Latte Factor" for an eye opener. Its the little $5 here, and $20 there, that all add up to thousands of dollars squandered, and explains why so many people are broke because they think they NEED these little things to make their life more comfortable.

I think Suze Orman once called this phenomena the "McMuffin Factor".

It's not about being able to afford FOOD,BUD! Many people on food stamps CAN AFFORD food. However,after buying their food they have little, if no money for anything else! That is WHY they are offered food stamps to begin with~so they CAN have money for other things besides food.What they choose to spend that money on,is none of any one's business,so long as it legal!
You all are obviously completely uninformed to make such ignorant comments.

Subsidized housing works much in the same way.People paying more then 30% of their income on rent costs qualify to get it.This insures they have money for other things,be it car insurance,a phone,or a dvd.
Borrowing from the library isnt always the best choice when you can incur late fees. Buying the dvd for 5 bucks makes more sense in the long run because you own it and dont have to pay any late fees.

Look,I agree people with low income should cut out un-nessacary costs. When things were bad for us about 10 years ago,we didnt have cable,internet or even a phone! We didnt go out to eat or to bars.
Yet,we did buy a USED VHS tape for about 5 bucks on the weekend to have something to do.

archird21 just called me. He wanted to say thanks for providing His family with food and enough spending money for smokes and things he doesn't need.

Last movie I went to was 3 years ago!

If you have no job, your day is wide open and any late fee incured from the library is idiotic.

I bought my first place I had less than $80 to my name. I had a job paying below min wage with small amounts of comish. (Tire store $1 per allignment, $.50 for a rotate and balance. Good day was an extra $10-$20) I didn't go out to eat for almost a year. I packed a lunch every day. With cheap groceries. I bought my bread from a wholesaler that sold items already collected from big stores. I went to big stores on the weekends to get a small meal out of the samples. Went to no movies, or rented movies. My luxury was basic cable. Yeah a whopping 14 channels with no ESPN. It cost me around $16 a month. I drove a Ford Aspire. I never went to the mall and bought no new clothes for well over a year. After a year of living like this I had money saved up and started a retirement plan with my companies 401K. I bought a few new cloths from a consignment store and Good Will.

Today I am financially set. My earnings now are going towards better retirement and my childrens educations/ futures.

I still have my frugal shoping habbits. Good will, consignments etc. I haven't gone shopping for new cloths since 2004. I still wear shoes and clothes I had in high school. I'm not cheap I leave 20% tips, refuse to shop at Wal Mart, have a golf membership, and eat out a few times a week now.

I also drive a 1999 Toyota that I bought in 2001. It has over 100,000 miles on it.

To Cool Mama: What people on welfare and foodstamps spend their money on should be every tax payers buisness. ITS OUR MONEY!!!

I better go make some more money so other people can spend it on their kids shoes and some Kool cigs. And I better save more because I'll be the one paying for the cancer treatments.

Maybe I'm a little bitter as my family didn't have much of anything growing up, but handouts were not an option. Most our clothes were hand me downs and garage sales. 95% of my childrens clothing is garage sale items. My Fathers family was much worse. 10 kids in a 3 bedroom house. When my Dad was 15 he was sleeping in a twin bed with his 13 year old brother. They had to have stocking hats and coats on during the night as they had very little to no heat. All 10 kids made it to somewhat successfull people. Only one graduated from college and no one has had any gov handouts.

Bud: A little suprised you shop at Wal Mart. I'd figured you would have found out shopping there costs Americans much more for their products than they realize.

A study done a year ago showed the two super Walmarts in my town cost tax payers over a million each year.

Since Wal Mart has become so large, retail workers income has dropped 30%! These employees in my town get rental assitance, heating assitance, food stamps, wic, health insurance, etc.

I really hate Wal Mart. Its a vicious cycle, Wal Mart thrives on the poor or less fortunate to buy their goods. In return Wal Mart eliminates good paying jobs while adding more and more min wage jobs, or below the poverty line.

I also find it interesting that when gas prices rise it directly effects Wal Marts sales. They are the only big retailer that this happens to. It just proves the people shopping there have little expandable income.

Also glad you joined this forum. I find myself relating to you on multiple topics and don't respond to many threads as you have the same view/ opinion as I do.

Interesting thread. The only thing I think I should add is that if you are on food stamps, you shouldn't be spending any money on WANTS. It should be spent on survival needs or going into savings. ANYONE who smokes and complains about money should be tarred, feathered, and set on fire. Then they can enjoy the smoke for FREE.

nfllifer, I did type that Walmart confession with a twinge of guilt. Really, I did. I have read about our "Walmart economy" and you are right on about what you said.

I never shopped there until about two years ago. All my friends who shop there, kept telling me I was a fool not to shop there, because the prices were so low. I finally succumbed to the Walmart/SamsClub shopping experience when a friend took me there. The prices were so low I was hooked. I DO feel guilty every time I shop there, but I can't justify buying things like laundry soap at the prices the local El Rey or Outpost stores charge - it is almost double. Walmart shopping does create a vicious cycle. May I even make a bold statement to say it is creating a ripple effect "slave worker economy"? How do we get out of it? (That is just a rhetorical question. I don't think any of our political leaders are going to find this thread and exclaim "Hey look guys! These Garden Web people have solved our broken economy with their new ideas!"

******
Oh, and needing to buy DVDs because paying to late fees on the free rental at the library is more expensive. Hahaha. ROTFL. Your're killing me.

i could type for an hour on my computer AT WORK (because we dont own one)in response to most people saying that poor people should also not get any form of entertainment other thatn playing in their own yard. but i wont.

i will state this in response to the fact that it should be everyones business what we buy because its YOUR MONEY...

i pay taxes as well. a good chunk of them. isnt it my money too?

okay so what about the guy down the street that screwed himself up on drugs so bad that he is on permanent disability. do you want to know what HE spends his money on?

yes, we get goverment help, paid by the american working public (including myself) and i want more than anything to be off it. i'm sorry, but we cant feed 5 people for 10 a week... also, we have basic cable ($11 a month for network channels), (somewhat)nice furnature that was given to us, has been well over 4 years since myself or my wife have bought "NEW" clothes, so i hear where alot of people are coming from. but its the attitude that i should not be able to spend a single dime...

i feel like i went a little overboard on my last post, but i feel strongly that just because we get a measley $125 a month in help we should cut off ALL spending... no if's and's or but's.

this debaut is becoming pointless because everyone seems so closed minded. maybe i am myself, but people need to open their eyes and have compassion for those that dont have what they do.

"f you have no job, your day is wide open and any late fee incured from the library is idiotic."

This kind of comment is what is un-nessacary. Alot of people on food stamps or subsudized housing work or have more than one job! They simply arent making enough money.

Anyways,I agree with arichard21,and this thread has just gotten out of control.Obviously we arent going to change anyone's views so it's pointless to carry on the debate.

All I can say is,GET EDUCATED. Find out WHY and HOW people need these programs.Find out how like arichard21 pointed out,many dont get very much from these programs as well.
It is obsurd to think they be treated like slaves and not have average rights others have because they simply dont make that much money.
And yes...telling them cant have movies,and anything else is treating them as such.
I'am a humanitarian,and I believe in helping others. I'm working toward a goal of getting a job in this field just so I can.
Anyhow,I'm done with this thread.

My thought on ending charity programs is to GET EDUCATED. It starts in our school systems. They need to teach basic economics, balancing a check book, dangers of credit cards, etc.

I have a good friend who is a single mom. She drives a decent car and lives in a small house. She gets no assitance and has a terribly low paying job. She survives by not spending ANY money on wants. No cable TV, no internet, etc.

If she had two decent paying jobs, one full one part, she easily could feed a family of 5. BUT she also doesn't have any debt to pay for other than her mortgage.

My feeling with food stamps is your giving them a free ride. Many people on these programs have no ambition to better them selves. Lets say arichard gets a 3rd job mowing peoples lawns. The additional income may bump him out of the food stamps. Basically he could work another 15 hours a week and in the end walk away with the same.

I understand the need for these programs, just feel those on it need to be screened better. Drug testing, no smoking, no alcholol, no spending money on wants. See how badly they actually NEED these programs.

This is where te politcal views differ. I beleive anyone can "make it" here. Anyone with a disire, work ethic, etc can become a millionaire. Its not luck, its common sense and good work ethics.

My past tenants who were on section 8 and food programs have been terrible. Lazy people who don't keep my places clean, lose jobs because they don't show up, buy fast food, junk they don't need etc. Many people who really need these programs won't even apply for them because thats how they were raised and they have more pride.

I can see your view on it because you're a landlord who probably has seen the worst of these people...but I have seen the best.The poor old lady who cant get by cuz her husband died...
Where I live,the application process is VERY HARD. As a pregnant,single mother my sister in law couldnt even get help!
Also,many times people who accept assistance also are demanded to attend job training classes. From 8am to 4pm. So,long gone are the days of just collecting welfare and sitting at home watching tv all day. That's all I'm saying.
If you look into how hard it is to get into these programs in the first place,you will see it certainly is not easy.
But I dont know where you live.Every state is different.
My state has very little help at all for people who need it.
So maybe that's why only ones who really need it are on it.

Such is why I dont see alot of Ghetto fabulous people.

Where I live, welfare recipients can only collect checks for a total of three years in their lifetime. Also they are required to work (at a site as a volunteer) 35 hours per week. Minimum wage here is $6.85 hr and most of the individuals on welfare after "volunteering" 35 hours per week and receiving their welfare check get about $2 hr!! Yet a lot choose to continue to use their welfare benefits instead of working at a minimum wage or higher job. The welfare office (dept. of job and family services) is pretty strict on the 35 hour a week rule as well. If a client doesn't work their required hours their check is cut off and they have to make up the hours they missed (sometimes working up to 50 hours in one week) to receive another check.) The goal is to simulate working at a "real" job so that the welfare recipients become equiped with the soft skills needed to keep a job. I'm not really sure why anyone would choose to "earn" less than minimum wage while working almost full time. They dont' get to stay home and spend more time wtih their children or anything. It is just like having an actual job.

Wow! Bud_wi for President! Very well said and funny too!

Okay, apparently I spoke too early. I agree with Bud_wi on some things but not everything. Coolmama: you've said some pretty cool things too. This is a great post with a lot of thought provoking comments.

Has it occurred to anyone what it's like to live on assistance, using food stamps, etc. for any length of time? It's soul destroying. It also causes big time depression, making it very difficult to want to get out of the bed in the a.m., let alone go job hunting, or be constantly trying to figure out how to eat cheap (forget nutrition!). If a like pepper-upper like smoking or a DVD, etc. gets you through the week, then do it, because you're not an animal, not a robot, not a criminal, and should have the same self respect as anyone else.

Bravo lucy! I totally agree with what you've said.It's so easy for people to judge when they arent in the situation. What's that saying? You never know a man until you've walked in his shoes?

and that should have read "a little pepper...", sorry!

I think I know what vwdriver meant. I was with our daughter when she was hunting for her first apartment in Cali. By what I understand they have to save less expensive apartments for those who make less but are not necessarily "low income". In other words they couldn't lease a small, less expensive, apartment to someone that makes bookoo bucks just so they could hoard their money, spend it all on other luxuries or whatever because then there wouldn't be available housing for those that can't afford (most likely minimum wage earners) the more expensive apartments.
Is that what you were trying to say VWdriver?

For those of us who spent years making do, not going to movies, limiting our spending and pinching a penny until it hurt, limiting the number of our children to 2. Who remember our parents telling of living 2 families to a house who grew huge gardens to help feed the family, but NEVER EVER asked for help. There was a huge stigma in getting help from anyone because you couldn't make do.
I remember my mother turning sheets and the collars on my father's shirts.....do anyof you accepting food stamps even know what I am talking about!
If you are sick and can't work I feel it is my moral duty to feed you....but not buy you cigarrettes nor a movie so you don't get "depressed".
Where did this sense of entitlement come from? You really think society owes you money for small luxuries? Aren't you ashamed to accept a handout? Don't you feel guilty using government money for smokes and a DVD when there are people out there choosing between the medicine that keeps them alive or having a telephone?
Linda C

Wow, Linda... I didn't know you came over to the APT forum too. I was just going to scream, I AGREE, and then I saw your name at the bottom... now I'll scream it with a megaphone.... I AGREE with everything you said times 10!!!!

And Linda, not to take away from what you said (I've heard lots of similar stories from my mother), but life has changed a lot since then in many ways, and things like minimum wage (at least... crummy as it is) and social security were brought in because so many people and especially their children were NOT making do well enough to be healthy, or get educated on any consistent basis - just getting to school could be a big problem, never mind not having what to wear, or being expected to work themselves at very young ages, etc. and while it may be frustrating to see 'poor' people today actually NOT wearing rags, begging on the street, selling their children (it happened), etc., I would think the minor annoyance of it would be balanced by knowing the children did get to eat, not live in freezing cold places, and would be taken care of if they got sick. The world is very different from what it was in the '30's or 40's, and it's not all bad.

wow, i havent been in here in a while and was surprised to see this thread is still alive. so i read through the last few responses and heres mine:

Posted by lindac

If you are sick and can't work I feel it is my moral duty to feed you....but not buy you cigarrettes nor a movie so you don't get "depressed".
Where did this sense of entitlement come from? You really think society owes you money for small luxuries? Aren't you ashamed to accept a handout? Don't you feel guilty using government money for smokes and a DVD when there are people out there choosing between the medicine that keeps them alive or having a telephone?
first, YOU are not buying me ciragetts and dvd's. I AM. WITH MY PAYCHECK.

"You really think society owes you money for small luxuries?" absolutly not. but i do owe it to my kids to provide some sort of life to them other than playing with their toys (oh wait, should we sell those to buy dinner?????) and staring at the walls.

"Aren't you ashamed to accept a handout?" no i am not. i do what i have to do to feef my family.

"Don't you feel guilty using government money for smokes and a DVD when there are people out there choosing between the medicine that keeps them alive or having a telephone?"

i do not feel guilty because i am NOT using gov't money to buy these things. in case you forgot, I WORK 3 JOBS. i pay taxes on ALL 3 INCOMES.

i am a tax paying citizen of the greatest country in the world. me and my family DO NOT DESERVE TO BE TREATED LIKE CRIMINALS IN JAIL BECAUSE WE RECIEVE A LITTLE HELP!!!!!!!

have you people never had someone come over to your house to help you with something? have you never moved and asked a few friends to give you a hand? you have never been in a store and couldnt find something so you ask an employee where it is?

oh you have. were you embarassed? no. hmmm...

when you asked your friends to help you move, did they tell you that because of that you cannot buy ANYTHING because if ou couldnt PAY someone to move you stuff, you definatly dont have the money for a USED $7 dvd from the video store???

just make sure you read my words carefully and fully understand what i am saying before i am stomped for needing a little freakin help.

maybe i can look into selling a kidney or 2.

I have no problem with those that need help. I do have a problem with those that use the system. All of my children have worked 2 and 3 jobs when it became necessary to "live". No they have not always spent their money well, but they do take responsibility.

On the other side I have a never married granddaughter with 3 children that uses the system. She will work a job for a couple of mos a year, whatever the requirements are and short enough not to pay taxes. Then sit on her rear the rest. She pays no rent, has a 3 bedroom house the tax payers pay for, no utilities to pay and food stamps at hand. Of course all health care is free and she uses this to the max.

When the holidays roll around and free food is handed out she heads to every one available (3,4,5 and loads up. There are free supplies for babies, children's clothes, furniture, etc. from all types of manufacturers and outlets. Many of these things are brand new, some supplied in the name of safety for all. Santas and Bunnies are abundant with gifts. And, it is also not unusual for her to actually return these things to stores for cash or something else.

I hate thinking of the many people who give to the food collections and gifts for the needy, not knowing that there are people like her using the system. She may be the one of few, but she is a shame to the many who really need the help. There is nothing wrong with her, she is healthy and able to work. And she is obviously smart enough to know how to work, she is smart enough to beat the system. I cannot understand why she gets away with the now 8 years of subsidy.

So, for those who complain about the system, there are valid complaints. I truely wish I wasn't personally able to even know about this. And no, there is nothing one can do. The system is so complicated, as an average citizen we are placed in a maze of chaos to even begin to tag the culprits.

If people would use the money they "earned working" on needed items such as food, many families wouldn't need handouts, and all of our taxes would decrease.

The fact you try to justify your money and gov money and the fact you pay taxes is rediculous.

I am fairly well off. Should I start spending $60,000 on vacations, smokes, entertainment a year and get on food stamps? This can be done as I'm an independent contractor and am able to write off many of these not needed items.

Moving and welfare should never be compared again. I am now dumber for trying to understand that reasoning.

Why don't you compare getting welfare help to that of a 2 year old asking for help dressing etc.

You really need to listen, and learn from the past. How about starting with asking what you can do for "the greatest country" instead of how "the greatest country can provide for you.

Yes you do pay taxes but so does almost every other citzen and even no citizens. I'm sure most people pay in a lot more than you and recive a lot less. Your tax dollars probably don't pick up your share of police protection, military protection, safe roads, schools etc but yet you feel you are owed something back.

Its like going to church every week, putting in $5 but expecting the church to help you out with $25 in groceries each week.

Get a 4th job, go back to school, get a better job, or cut your expenses. Heck, join the army, get paid more and educated. Yes you will be away from your kids but you will be teaching them a lot more than they are learning right now.

Gov programs were suppose to be emergency help, one time things, help for people who mentally or physically cant provide, etc. Social Security was for fools who don't know how to save or were never taught.

This is an example why the Greatest Generation is history.