It happens in the E series, the L series, and the dual fuel ranges. That's everything with blue porcelain. The all gas ranges do not have blue porcelain and are exempt from the problem.

vivian31: I hope you didn't pay too much for it. I would contact the seller about it, hopefully they will be reasonable and refund some of your money. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the outlook is grim. It's doubtful Wolf will help you due to its age and you not being the original owner. If you pay the expensive price to replace the cavity, there's no guarantee it won't chip again.

So first off, the conversion to Houzz has changed my name. I was todds on gardenweb and had to use toddimt on houzz when I signed up years ago. Strange that I can still search though under todds and find my posts. That's good though and hopefully it lasts.

Back to the M series. There is another piece of info I had heard about the new M series. I was told that the the fans have an electronic hum noise. Also, the cooling fans can be noisier. So will go back to the showroom to turn it on and see if its an issue.

Hi Todds! If you want to change the name displayed, you can change the "First Name" in your settings (in Your Houzz) to display whatever you want.

My husband and I were expecting to love the Wolf M series (sans potential enamel problem) but we were both disappointed by the interface. Two issues jumped out at us. First, unlike the E series or at least the higher end of the new 6000 series miele ovens (per Miele M touch manual) there is no keypad for directly entering temperatures. My husband and I both found the ipad interface annoyingly slower than a numerical keypad. Extra fancy stuff is fine as long as the basics are easy and quick to get to which they weren't. Second, the gourmet setting seemed very limited. For example, we could not find a way to change the predefined temperature either by fiddling with interface or by reading the manual. Either this is not possible or at least not obvious. From the Miele manual (I have not yet found an M touch oven or selectronic to see in person), the masterchef appears to be much more flexible.

Personally, I really like the E series oven interface best - simple and quick. Couple this with (per Wolf demo and rhome), a dream for even multi-rack baking.... It would have been an easy choice... However, the enamel issues (coupled with Wolf's noncommittal response regarding how they plan to address this issue when I called) is a deal breaker. I am now looking at Miele, Bosch and Electrolux. Unfortunately little to no reviews on any of these new models. (Gaggenau is out of the price range, a bit too quirky in interface and looks as well as too expensive and very limited service in our area.) Fancy features are nice, but I would be more than happy with a trouble free convection oven with even multirack baking and (accurate temp probe).

I qualify my comments with the statement that I have never used any of the above ovens personally. I do not even have friends or relatives with any of these ovens. I was not even considering anything in this price range until I went to a demo at the Wolf showroom and was blown away by the concept of even, multi-rack baking. Currently, we have an older Kitchenaid Superba double oven with convection in the upper oven only. Convention baking is very even for one rack (I rarely rotate anything) but all bets are off for two racks. When I need to bake on two racks, I bake things in succession which is painful. However, this is not as painful as trying to shuffle pans between racks (or between upper and lower ovens) which seems to yield marginal results and prevents me from doing anytthing else in the meantime. My dream oven would be a double e series oven with problem-free enamel and convection in both upper and lower ovens. While I am wishing for things I do not ever expect to see, I wish Wolf would put keep up with the times and put out a plumbed version of their steam oven....

EDG

"My dream oven would be a double e series oven with problem-free enamel and convection in both upper and lower ovens. "

YES. Me, too!! A non-intuitive interface without a direct path to basics seems like a mistake.

I was also surprised they didn't have a plumbed steam oven... Although, I can't even dream of being able to afford the one they have!

So re-visited the showroom this AM to hear the ovens in action. I also wanted to take a closer look between the professional and transitional models as well. Especially in regard to Houztongirl's post above. The double oven was not yet in the showroom. I was told that they are starting to ship and would probably we a 2 week wait for the swapout, if I went that route. This applies to the professional or transitional models. As I stated previously and on their website, the contemporary version is not avail to 4th qtr 2015 and possibly not until sometime in 2016.

As far as noise, The M series sounds more like a quiet dishwasher or quieter fridge compressor. Even has a slight whooshing sound that is reminiscent of a spray arm rotating in a quiet dishwasher. Not a silent Miele but maybe a lower end model where you can hear it running. I tested bake as well as convection bake, so I can see if it clicks like L and E series. clicks still there but seemed like much less then the L I have. I then ran the ovens up to 450 so the cooling fans also kicked on. Now the cooling fans weren't necessarily louder then the E series I also turned on. But the noise was different. The E has a straight blowing noise where the M model I tested had a noise more reminiscent of if the air was a little restricted. Not a whistling noise just not as smooth of an airflow noise. There wasn' t a M DO to test to see the volume with both going at once and the two models of the single ovens were at opposite ends of the cooking studio. Hard to describe the sound.

I tried to record the sound on my iphone. The room was quiet and I held the phone about 4-5' away. Below are links to audio files in my dropbox, which I will keep up for a little while. Its, the professional M series running, on convection bake.

Just the convection - No cooling fan yet

M Series - Convection Only

Convection and cooling fan

M Series - Convection w/ Cooling

I am not sure which model Houztongirl was looking at. I currently have the L series DO. There is a lot of buttons. I use it frequently and still find myself moving my finger around to find what I have to press 1st, second, etc. especially if its a mode I don't always use or the probe etc. As far as the M series and directly entering temp, I didn't find this to be an issue on the transitional model. It was more an issue on the professional model. While you would think the Knobs lead to faster access, they do and they don't. Here is my rundown on the two M models and the L series with the same scenario:

Set oven to Bake - 425 degrees.

L Series & probably E series:

-Press Bake, Temp comes up at 350. Press 4, press 2, press 5. Either wait or press enter.

M series - Transitional.

- Touch Screen. Choose "Quick Start", There is a slide bar (scrolling horizontal bar), which has all of the modes. Bake is highlighted in red in the center flanked by the other modes in blue. If you want bake you then touch bake. If you wanted another mode you can press it if its visible or use you finger to swipe/scroll easily left or tight to pick your mode. So roughly the same process but done step by step. Then the temp options pop up. I think for bake the default is the same 350 as the L and E series. If you want that touch it. Otherwise, like the MODES, you are flanked by temp decreasing in 25 degree increments to the left and Increasing 25 degrees to the right. If the temp you want is displayed then tough it. if not, swipe/scroll quickly and easily to the desired temp. Was pretty simple. There also is a +/- option on the screen to increase/decrease the temp in 25 degree increments with each press. This is more time consuming and is closer to how it works on the professional model.

Putting the steps together its; touch the screen , touch "quickstart", touch bake, touch 425 or swipe/scroll to 425, touch start. Same amount of button presses on L and I believe the E, unless on the L you don't press enter and wait the couple of seconds for it to start.

M Series - Professional. This model uses the Knobs in conjunction with the display for functions. But for this scenario you use the knob to select the cooking mode (akin to the quick start options). The know has the most commonly used modes for direct access. However, if you want to use some of the other modes, you select "More" and then choose off the display screen. But in this case you move the knob to bake. I did find some of the modes hard to read in the store, cause the glare from the lights above made some of them appear washed out and faded. Once you select the mode, with the knob, its now time to select the temp. So in this case the default will come up with 350 on the display. You then use the knob to go up or down in 25 degree increments. I found this more time consuming then the transitional model. In regard to temp, the display is strictly for viewing (no direct touch access).

Putting these steps together. Turn knob to bake, use other knob to increment the temp up to 425. I am not sure if you turn the knob all the way to the right if it gradually goes up in 25 degree increments or if you have to move the knob from center to keep doing 25 degree increments. I think I had to do that latter. I also found myself wanting to touch or adjust things on the screen, which you can't.

As far as the gourmet option, you touch the screen on the transitional and select "Gourmet" on the professional you move the knob to gourmet. At this point, both M series ovens operate the same way and you use the touch screen to move through the options. Houztongirl said that she found the options limited in that she couldn't change the temp, etc. However, that is precisely the point of gourmet. The setting is done to take the guesswork out of how to cook a particular item. i.e. what mode, temp, Probe or no probe, what spot/rack in the oven, cook time etc. Thus, if you were using this mode, you would have no reason to change anything. As I stated in my earlier post, this is pretty muck akin to the chart that is in the back of the Use & Care guide, for those that currently have a wolf. Where it shows various items and the modes, rack, etc to use. For example, I chose poultry, I chose pieces, I chose white meat, It then told me to use the probe, auto set the internal cooking temp, oven temp and told me which rack space (when you open the door there are numbers on the trim, just outside of the cavity). If you are following a recipe or know exactly how you wanted to cook an item, you wouldn't be using gourmet. That is all "Quick Start", which is the same as pressing buttons on the E series, L series or most other ovens.

Am I understanding correctly that the available temps are only in 25 degree increments? I could be losing my mind (pretty gone after 3 or 4 of my 7 ovens), but I am pretty sure I could set the E series to temps like 335 if I wanted.

I am like 90% sure that was the case. Even when I did the +/- temp it did that. But a couple of things. I only tried this in one of the modes. Maybe it is dependent on the mode. If I look at the use & care manual I can see that Proof, for instance starts at 85 degrees. Dehydrate also starts at a non 25 degree increment. I also think most Recipe/cooking temps for usual baking are in the 25 degree increment range though. I am pretty sure I can enter in odd numbers as well on the L. But, do you need to. They did add a "Warm" mode to the M (Starts at 140) . Currently the only way I could get low temps was to put L in dehydrate mode.

I will check my L later. But I guess the big question is does it matter? Or maybe does it matter only is certain modes? Again, I only tried Bake and convection bake.

So it's totally over-engineered. They think, well most people choose bake/350 so let's just make them start there. UGH. All of this may look keen, and maybe it's a way to sell non-cooking husbands, who tend to spend thousands more on tools for the little ladies if they have cool gizmos.

The 25 degree stops may be an admission that they can't control the oven temperature more finely. More likely, they scanned recipe books and saw that the temperatures are given in multiples of 25 and never stopped to consider that that is a convention, not an absolute. One adjusts one's heat/time to fit the dish!! It makes me bonkers that I have 25s at the top and bottom of my dial (Gaggenau), but at least the middle is by fives!

Why do they let engineers who don't cook near ovens?

"plllog

Why do they let engineers who don't cook near ovens?"

______

This!

I know I used to fine tune temps to fine tune results on my Wolf ovens, and checked temps now and then (comparing set temp to 'real time' readout and also to oven thermometers), and they were nearly spot on. Closer than in the Gagg, which seems to allow a larger "margin of error."

Necessary? Maybe not. Maybe I'd do as well cutting the temp on breads and pastries, when necessary, to 325 instead of my 'go-to' 335. But why make the new models less precise? It's just one woman's experience and opinion, but Wolf had proven technology that achieved results noticeably better and more consistent than the other ovens I've had. I'm a fan of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Fix what IS 'broke,' and that's the porcelain issue...

Gourmets/bakers/chefs like to cook and create... And control is a big part of that, I think. That's something Gagg seems to understand. I guess there are those who would pay for gadgetry, ease, and pizazz, and those who would pay for precision technology to get refined results. Wolf has had the technology to appeal to the latter, but maybe the former make a bigger market and these issues are their compromise?

Still dreaming of Houztongirl's fantasy... Double E with dbl convection, and porcelain that stays put. I'd gladly pay for that over a new bunch of 'gourmet' features that try to think and make decisions for me. But Wolf did tell me they didn't engineer their ovens for those who use their ovens like I do... Ya know... Baking and stuff. ;-)

Sorry for rambling. I'd edit to shorten it, but it's pizza baking time!

Rhome,

In settings in the M series there is a calibration option. Also, there is a temp offset feature as well.

I also want to state that I didn't do an in depth walk through of all modes, which may open up other options, check to see if you can fine tune the temps, or see if there are adjustments for different increments in settings. Maybe I'll go back next week and see.

I may go back tomorrow or Wed to the showroom to re-visit the temp. Does anyone else have any requests of info they would like to know about the M? like control panel functions etc? I will try to accommodate.

toddimt, thanks for asking. Could you please check how easy it is to scroll through the controls if your fingers are slightly wet or greasy (i.e. simulate a real life cooking experience)?

Rhome, Hi, I just talked with a Wolf "Product Specialist" and I was told that you could set the M Series at any temperature and not just by 25 degree increments. It can be set to any temperature by using the touch pad. Our new M is being delivered on Thursday. I am keeping my fingers crossed that this will be the time to do this.

Kalapointer

Which model? Is it a double oven? I am going to see if I can get there tomorrow but if not will check back with you on verifying once you have it .

I'm a little jealous, Kalapointer. I hope this works for you!!

Toddimt, I am getting the Professional M double oven. This will be my third Wolf oven. First 2 were E's and had porcelain problems. Since Wolf has not changed the interior of the E, I decided not to go down that road again. I will post after it is installed.
Rhome, sorry I didn't want you to be jealous. Thanks, I hope it works out to or it is bye, bye, Wolf.

After reading this forum- I am kinds of scared buying 48 inch Wolf Dual Range,single wall oven and their combo steamer oven. But I can see their customer service is very good since this is on going problem. I hope the Proffesional M wall oven does not have the chipping porcelain problem.

I am looking at the latest 48 inch Miele range and Bertazonni now -different type of quality - but not sure about their customer service quality. My heart sets on Wolf for a long time, it is very hard to let go your dream but do I want to deal with this problem in the future after paying so much money?

Lisa from Wolf has contacted me and I have not called her back.

Kalapointer,

What I am unsure about is if I have to modify the opening for the M's.

The L had a 49 5/8" opening height, which is what my front panel was designed to accommodate. You have the E series, which is actually 1/8" higher at a 49 3/4" opening. The M's show 49 7/8" opening.

Hkwan,

The service has been good on the wall ovens because the chipping which seems to be from stress in the corners , occurs during the warranty period. The ranges don't seem to have that stress so have problems later and the chipping occurs over the element. This is generally outside of the 2 yr warranty so you are stuck paying for repairs yourself. They have you over a barrel there. They won't give an estimate and will only guarantee the part for one year. So for a known issue, not so great.

I think the cabinet opening is made to a bit larger than the exact dimensions specified (usually they means the minimum opening) for the scenarios exactly like such. The cabinet maker should know the cabinet may not stick with the current oven forever. 1/4 inch is well within the tolerance.

Not sure I agree with that statement. I looked back at my drawings and elevations for the cabinets, since I can't obviously measure with the current oven in place. The opening is referenced exactly at 48 5/8". The opening should be made exactly per the specs of the oven you were building the cabinets to bit. Especially since every oven is different. Lip's around the ovens are different as well. I remember rhome had to modify her cabinets after either the 1st DO she had replaced or maybe the second or all of them. They are not all standard. The question may be that Wolf Shows a larger opening required for the M but in reality it could fit within the dimensions of the L or E. If Kalapointer measures the opening height when the DO is removed and it turns out its 49 3/4 and the L fits, without modification, then this would be the case for E series replacements but still unsure of L. Would have to get a measurement of the oven itself, From side or back to get its true height. The Advocate I have been speaking to said it should fit but obviously want to know for sure so I have all necessary tools on hand if I swap mine out.

Well, it really depends on how the cabinet maker looks at it. Mine did the opening at least 1 inch higher than the specified. The bottom line is the height can be between the limits that the oven front can cover the opening and that one can at least insert the oven body through the opening, respectively. It is quite a range actually.

Cabinet makers can't realistically plan for a change in ovens, because, I know from experience, oven heights can vary by a number of inches from one brand to the next. (Or from one decade to the next, which is reasonably as soon as an oven should need to be changed! Too bad that's not been the case for a lot of us.) Hopefully, in this case, though, that small height difference won't be difficult to accommodate. This is an example of where frameless cabinets (what I have) may have a distinct disadvantage over framed, which may more easily allow for a change in opening size. I sure should remember, but, Todd, is yours frameless?

"Applnut" from the Gardenweb forums here (Couldn't get my account to confirm on Houzz, so I had to sign up again and thus became "applnut2." Sorry for any confusion) ... Just got my Wolf L series with the chipping porcelain replaced with the new M series. Doing the recommended burn in now.

At first glance see lots to like ...

-Larger oven size, with curved back to allow consistent airflow even when using large pans. (I found a leftover oven rack that didn't get picked up with the L -- oops! -- and can confirm that the interior of the M oven space is almost 2" wider and, based on the same rack, a good 2+" deeper at its deepest curved point. Wider seems to be the most important difference as I can fit pans side by side that I couldn't before.)

-No fan protrusion in back of oven. (Yay!)

-Comes with 4 glide racks!!! And they work on all the racks, including the bottom one. (On the L-series you couldn't put the extension rack on the bottom level.)

-Louder timer (the ridiculously soft timer on the L-series was a pet peeve of mine), with settings to change volume/brightness of display

-Large, clear oven window

-Stainless interior and exterior door

-Overall think the look is better, more "professional" style that better integrates with the rest of my appliances (I have the M professional series model.)

-Yep, there's a small seam along the bottom of the wall which (fingers crossed) will eliminate the stress that leads to chipping porcelain.

-The preheat temp is listed below the set temp (so you can see both), for each oven, and there are also two independent timers that can be set separately and you still see the clock as well.

One thing I was surprised to find was missing was convection broil. On a similar note, I still wish it had recessed or covered broiler elements, like some of the electric double ovens out there. These are standard metal coil, stick-down-from-the-top old-fashioned and, frankly, cheap feeling broilers. Not really what I expect on an almost $9,000 oven.

The knob/touch screen combo will take some getting used to, and I'm not crazy that so many cooking modes are relegated to the "more" panel, but it's no worse than the weird L touch screen which I never really liked. (I'm still not a fan of Wolf's insistence on default temperature settings for each mode, which are almost never the temps I actually desire.)

I'd still like an oven that tells me the "real" (according to it) temp all the time, not just when preheating, but I don't think any of them do that.

... Haven't cooked in it yet -- obviously, it's only been in about 20 minutes now -- and admit I'm nervous about having a first gen product, but overall already see some nice upgrades from the L series.

Oh and, yes, you can change temperatures by five degree increments. You just turn more slowly; quick turning of the knob results in 25 degree jumps.

OK, had to whip up a batch of chocolate chip cookies just to test these new babies out. I had four sheets, two in each oven, using convection bake and my regular time, temp and recipe. And I'm definitely impressed. If anything these ovens cook even more evenly than the L-series. Perfectly even doneness on all sheets, no matter which rack they were on (and I intentionally had the two racks in each oven in different positions). At least in terms of first impressions, I'm suitably wowed.

Just the way it should be. :-D And just the way I remember the baking performance of Wolf. If it's better...yes, WOW. Happy baking to all who get to try this one!

Now we'll wait and make sure the seam in the bottom solves the problem! Hoping so...for all of you.

applnut2, thanks for the review. My "M" was just delivered and will be installed tomorrow. Can't wit to try it out. My cabinet maker is making a little adjustment on the cabinet opening so the oven would fit.

Yeah, Rhome evenness for multiple sheets of cookies on middle rack settings used to be very, very good, but these were super even when I had one sheet on very top, and one sheet on very bottom ... Which did not used to be the case. Took the cookies out and you couldn't even tell which sheet had been where. Now I want to try three sheets in one cavity, something I never really did before (just used two ovens) because it never really worked right.

applnut2,

Test away. I did see a wolf youtube video which was baking cookies in the M series and used 3 trays.

I know no one really cares about the "Gourmet" settings but for the fun of it I know there is a cookies setting. Wonder what the results would be using that mode.

I am also still not set on professional or transitional for the M. Its the part knob and part touchscreen that I can see sometimes leading to confusion. especially since the "more" cooking modes require touching the screen which will lead to wanting to touch the temp. Vs. the transitional and all touch. Hmmm. Have to confirm through on the transitional about the temp increments and how you get 5 degree increments. This might be the make or break.

Kalapoiner,

What is the current opening of your cabinet now? Thinking I gotta plan on making modifications.

Rhome,

I have frameless cabinets. There is a "frame" though built for the oven cavity to side into. I remember when I assembled the cabinets it just attaches to cabinet sides with pocket screws. Since the oven is not being installed inset, the cut shouldn't have to be perfectly straight since it would be covered with lip of oven. Probably can do it with my multi-tool. Or disassemble and use a router.

I did 3 racks of granola and cookies in my E series. A lot of ovens show it in literature and ads, but of my 4 brands of ovens, Wolf was the only one that did it at all well. Actually, I can't say I've done 3 racks of anything in the Gagg, but even with only one or two, I don't get the even browning Wolf did with a full oven. That's where my envy comes from now that you all are getting your Ms. Why didn't Wolf just tell me they were working on a change that could be the solution?

Todd, I bet you could trim that frame well enough, if necessary.

My cabinetmaker made the opening 49.75". He took about 1/2" off the bottom top cabinet. The overall height with the trim is 50.875". So the trim should cover any gaps. This is not flush mount, but the regular slid-in mount.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Rhome.

Kalapointer, what was the opening size before? The E series showed a 49 3/4 opening? M showed 49 7/8

The opening for the "E" was 49 5/8". We will see tomorrow when it goes in. If we need to trim it more we will. I will let you know. This beast weighs 466 lbs. It should be quite a sight to see them slid it in.

Thanks. That I know is my current opening size. If u can snap a pic that would be great

Will do. I think I will start a new thread since we have hi-jacked this one. Look for a new episode.

Tell them to take the doors off! They don't work the way the L doors do, so at first they thought they didn't come off and even with three guys couldn't get my M into the opening. Finally, they found the instructions under installation and got the doors off and had no problem. Up till then they were like, 'I don't think we're gonna be able to do it.' I admit I was somewhat panicky. (They already my L in their truck.)

I originally had GE Monogram double ovens, so had to adjust my cutout for the L, which was significantly shorter. Even going on Wolf's specs, there was still a tiny gap as the L frame was very small. We put a few balsa shims in the bottom to cover the 1/4" at the top that was showing. For the M, we just pulled the shims out and it slid right in ... After they got it off the ground that is.

The trim on the M double oven itself is much, much wider than the L, and therefore more forgiving of cabinet cut-out size issues. I'd venture to say there's more than 1" top and bottom to cover and gaps, if need be.

Oh and, someone upthread commented on the M series noise ... Which worried me a bit. Comparing to the L, the fans on the M are actually significantly QUIETER, and don't run with the same force, or, seemingly, for as long, even after the burn-in (550 both ovens, for an hour). Hopefully they work as well, as I'd hate to return to my (knocking wood with a shudder of horror) overheating electronics/seizing fans days of the GE Monogram.

I wrote about the noise. Only cause the advocate brought it to my attention and it may be something I may want to hear before making the swap. The L's were pretty loud, Both with the clicking of the fans on/off as well as the cooling fan noise. He told me that the M's had more of an electronic humm and some people don't like it. It does have more of a humm and like I said more reminiscent of my Miele Dishwasher at a slightly higher volume or that of a somewhat quiet fridge compressor. It does get a little louder when the cooling fans kick on but much quieter then the L. They only had the E series on the floor so I turned that on to try and get a comparison. These were singles not doubles. I am glad that you are happy with the noise in the kitchen. Seemed to be to be a non-issue but I was at the showroom with very high ceilings and a wide open room so acoustics there would be much different then my smaller kitchen.

I was told that these ovens were tested for probably over 2 years and that about a year ago the owner of Sub Zero/Wolf was unhappy with the noise level, even though no one else was complaining or even thought they were noisy, so he had them make modifications. I thought it was fine and glad to hear in the kitchen setting you are happy as well.

We have a great room and stone floors (lots of reverb), and the L never bothered me. I could hear it, I guess, but it was very much background, especially if I was across the room. Close-up the cooling fan, which came on and stayed on long after the ovens were off, was louder than the convection fan for sure, and I could hear it if I was standing at the kitchen counter, but I never found it annoying. (We also have top-of-the-line Mieles and I often don't hear them at all; which is why we are always opening them accidentally when they're washing, so I can't compare.) The M series I can't hear at all across the room, even with no other noise in the house. In fact, I went over after the 550 convection roast had been on a while, to double check they were both still running. The cooling fan is also much softer.

Overall, I'm more likely to hear my fridge softly running than the ovens.

Oh, thought of something else I like about these ... The display, after not being accessed for a while, goes to clock only. It's large and bright (though you can turn the brightness down, if it bothers you -- we've got it at 80%, but you can go as low as 10) and we can actually see the time on it all the way across our long great room.

In the dislike column is the frustratingly flakey touchscreen function. You have to select by touching, then hit set and you can only adjust one setting at a time, or it doesn't remember anything (e.g. volume or tone, not both on the same screen at the same time). The touch scroll is also either too fast or too slow (or I'm too inpatient) and I was constantly zooming past the setting I actually wanted.

In real terms, you don't need to use the "settings" screen much, but having to hit "start" (on the touchscreen) every time you want to cook, which I'm sure will become second nature soon enough, is a bit of a PITA for now. You have to chose the mode (knob or knob + touchscreen for modes other than conv back, conv roast, warm, bake, broil or roast), select the temp (knob) and then, with the display looking like it's going, also hit "start" on the touchscreen (which doesn't intuitively even look like a button, just a word), before it does anything. Just too many steps for the most basic function of an oven, I think, and kind of confusingly implemented ... But so was the L's clunky interface. Luckily, at least the preheat gauge and/or the phrase "cooking" comes up on the display, to let you know it's running. The trickier part, visually, is when you're using both ovens. We had one on, one off unintentionally because they both looked on.

I did also hear, from Wolf, that they've had these in home kitchens with hands-on testers for almost two years now, after being in factory development for at least 3 years now. And they did make significant tweaks after the in-home testing phase. So, hopefully, they've worked out most of the kinks (knock wood, again).

More blah, blah, blah from moi about the M ...

Haven't used it, and not sure I will really, but playing with the gourmet settings out of curiosity, just to see what they are ... It's a pretty logical step-by-step that many non-cooks could find helpful. You select the type of food (meat, vegetables, fish, baked goods, pizza, one dish meals) and then you select the type of prep or food within the category, and then size or other option (how many pans/racks, meat thickness, type of cake, fresh pizza or par-baked, etc.) and it sets the oven temp/mode for you and tells you what it's selected is, plus which rack you should put your dish on, whether you need to preheat, etc. Could be good for a babysitter or guest situation.

It also leaves all that info onscreen until you push "start," so you don't forget which rack, etc. The few I checked: cookies under baked goods (350 on racks 2, 4 & 6) , par-baked pizza under pizza (stone mode at 450 using rack 2) and salmon steaks under fish (broil on high rack 6), all seemed pretty logical. The one thing they don't seem to give you is time, not even a rough estimate, which seems critical. If you really don't know what you're doing and trying to relay on the oven, how would that work?

Oh and, by the way, the rack positions are numbered on the interior of the oven so you know what they're talking about. It's fairly slick and I can see the benefit in being able to tell my husband which rack to put something on, etc.

Speaking of the racks, they seem stable and smooth once inserted, but they're a you-know-what to get in. They don't feel right, even when they're on right, and they stick something fierce when inserting, at least initially. It's a brute force kind of job that made me sure I was doing it incorrectly and had me consulting the manual and YouTube videos to confirm. And, I was doing it correctly, it's just super awkward ... Plus, they have sharp edges that seem to get caught on the braided fabric insulation seal around the oven cavity when you're taking them in/out. I've already snagged it several times, because you just can't keep the extension rack parts tight when inserting (they slide out), no matter how hard you try ... And it always seems to be a matter of brute force to get the front and back edges properly seated onto the rack guides properly.

Once in, they're slick, and take up a lot less room than the L racks did, but wow, that's a pain. (And, to be a broken record, I still long for my coated Monogram racks that could stay in the oven when self-cleaning. Those were awesome.)

An odd quirk ... The preheat temp countdown doesn't come on if you're using "warm", "proof" or "dehydrate" ... It just goes straight to "cooking," with no indication what the actual temperature currently is. Potentially a bad thing for modes like "proof" where too high of heat can kill your yeast. If it has the power to tell you it's actual readings -- and based on its slick preheat readings, it does -- why, why, WHY can't Wolf just let its customers have that settings onscreen all the time? (Even if it's a non-default option in order to avoid confusing "average" -- i.e. non-obssesed -- folks.)

By the by, playing with the gourmet settings I still found the touchscreen super frustrating. Frequently, not selecting the item I thought I pushed, selecting items I didn't want, instead of scrolling, etc. I'm an iPhone, iPad user, so I'm plenty familiar with how most touch interfaces work, but this was just weird. If anyone figures out the trick, let me know.

UPDATE: I think the "trick" is it doesn't really scroll, per se, you just have to touch what you want, no matter whether it's highlighted or not. Though that becomes confusing when there are more items in a list than fit on a screen and you just have to touch something lower down, or higher up, in order to see all the options. So: Touch something once to get it into the highlight portion; then touch again to select it. I also did the "calibration" under settings, and that seemed to help a bit with accuracy.

Odds and ends ...

-Every time you set something on roast (conv or regular) it wants you to use the probe, and you have to forcibly exit out of doing so if you don't want it. Seems unnecessary, and wish you could turn off things like that, as well as the preset temps for each mode; or at least adjust them to what you prefer/use most.

-There is an "about" selection in the settings that shows the model and software version info, but doesn't have the serial number information, which would have actually been helpful and you think wouldn't have been that hard to program.

-Anyone know what "Standby power" mode does/doesn't do? Default is "off."

-Touch screen seems to get smearier than the old L touch interface did. Of course, that had touch buttons, while this is an LCD/LED touch anywhere screen. Looks messy pretty quickly. :(

-Selections like "light" or "timer" go bold when they're activated. Flame logo is red anytime you're in cooking mode; gray when you're not ... Might be even more useful if it was only red once you've hit "start" so you know it's working. (<<<---This how it works. It's just that with the double ovens, if one is on, the flame is red, even if the other is still waiting to start.)

-Lastly, in the curse of the observed, I'm now hearing the cooling fan that kicks on at either a certain temp, or after you turn off any mode, a lot more. LOL.

Whew, sorry for droning on. Can you tell I'm excited about my new toy? :)

Your second to last paragraph is what has me on the fence about the professional vs transitional. Its the going back and forth using manual settings (knobs on the professional) as well as touch screen, with the Quick Start functions. If you are using the ovens constantly it becomes second nature, almost vs. less often during the week. At least that is where my head is going. Sort of like what you are saying about the L's. Realistically the L's shouldn't be that confusing but like you I found myself moving my finger around constantly trying to find the on button, then looking at the display for what next and having to choose mode then enter temp etc. If I ever used the probe, which thank god they fixed on the M with better positioning and I believe they eliminated the cover over the slot, which was hard to do with oven mitts on.

When I played around with the touchscreen I found that you just need to hold your finger down and move it slower. If you flick fast it will scroll very fast. Was very responsive though.

Not that they dropped the ball but a feature I think that would have been beneficial and somewhat cool would have been to add WiFi/Ethernet to the ovens. Why? This would have served two purposes. One is that Wolf could provide updates after getting user feedback. The second is that this could have been a platform to enhance the gourmet functionality. Even though many may poo poo the gourmet feature, it would be an inexpensive addition that market the ovens as remaining current. Especially since one selling point is the touchscreen interface and gourmet.

But going back to the first point, here are some examples of where a internet connected M would have been beneficial.

1) They could have pushed or have user download an update, so that the ovens auto start after you input the mode and temp, if start isn't pressed after a certain number of seconds. The L works that way. Could have also been added as a settings feature to decide if you want that mode on or off. Thus, on the professional you just need to use the knobs for the most common settings. Saves 1 step on the other models.

2) User adjust ability of the starting temps in each mode. Wolf tends to set the mode with what recipes probably use as the most common setting. But even you stated that this is somewhat annoying leading me to believe you wish that the preset temp started at something else. An updated option added in settings could have remedied that.

3) Ability to add user defined modes/temps. Thus, if you regularly bake cookies, you could create a mode called "My Cookies", which sets the temp to your setting, sets the cooking mode and maybe even auto-sets the timer. This could have worked on any of the M's cause those would fall under "More" on the professional and thus touchscreen options.

4. Would allow Wolf to get diagnostic info about the ovens and maybe even tell you/them about a potential issues. Sort of like the Miele diagnostics.

5) Connection to a Wolf App for iphone/Android which displays oven temp, probe temp, timer and alerts you when food is done, in case you are somewhere else in the house. Could have used this when the speaker went on my L, not that the volume.

^^^ I would have loved to have all of that.

And, yes, even the basic of "if you don't hit start within such-and-such time after entering mode and temp" it just starts anyways, would have been good. (I had no idea the L did that. Apparently, I'm too inpatient to ever have waited that long. LOL. BTW, just for fun, I chose a setting, changed the temp, and did not hit start ... to see if the M would come on, on its own. It didn't. Even after 5 minutes waiting.)

Oh and, for the curious, you MUST use the knob to adjust temperature on the M. I wondered if the touchscreen would work, too, since that's how the other M is set-up, but it doesn't.

The thing that got me about the L is you had to turn it off to change the mode once picked. And I was always doing things in the wrong order, even after more than a year of use. You had to chose mode, then temp than temp again to start, etc. And I'd push temp than mode or something and it wouldn't work. At least this way you can shift modes and temps at well, without pushing a button in between each or turning off and on again. You can change the set temp once preheating has begun, just by turning the knob, but you have to hit start again to change the mode.

Hadn't noticed that the probe no longer has a cover ... Yay! Because I agree that was near impossible to use previously. I burned myself every. single. time. It's on the roof of the oven(s) now (left front corner). Wonder how that will work in real use?

Oh and, I did just notice a "don't show me this again" message regarding the probe. With the "probe" setting so prominent in every mode (always on the screen to select) not sure why they thought they needed that menu guide at all.

Did just check and the old probe seems to work in the new oven, so now I have two because, again, the $8,800 Wolf only comes with one broiling pan and one probe per double OR single oven which seems dumbly cheap, to say the least.

applnut2,

Keep it up. The more info the better.

As far as gourmet, it sets the temp, internal temp, and cooking time based on the mode. Some of the modes use the probe, which is also why there wouldn't be a time per se. But, maybe you need to do something in one of these modes to test it out and see if it displays the temp or remaining time after pressing start.

As far as the roast/convection roast, I sort of get why its based on the probe. I initially never used the probe over my 3 year period of the L. I think I tired it once and maybe thought it was off temp wise but was probably using it incorrectly. If I was lets say cooking checking breast (on the bone) I would always take out the thermapen and check to see if the temp was done if not I would add a little more time and check etc. I then said to myself a few months ago, why not just use the probe. I found that using the probe gave me better results in terms on doneness. Set the temp you want the final item to be at and when you take it out and let it rest it will then hit that temp. Perfect doneness. I know the L would just show you the current temp of the probe and from that you may be able to gauge how long it may take to be completed. Would think in this day and age one could use an algorithm to see how fast it took to get between temps and have an idea of estimated time left until you hit the setpoint. Not to mention, this is where my #5 idea would be ideal, since you would have that on you to check.

The screen does scroll. I will sort of describe changing the temp on the transitional since that is what I played with most in terms of the touch screen interface. If I chose Bake, the temps were horizontal across the top of the screen. 350 was in the middle and highlighted in red. Other temps up and down respectively to the left and right. If a temp I wanted, other then 350, was displayed, I could touch that temp. If not, you slide your finger to scroll/rotate the number and then press on the one you want. Gourmet is similar as well, at least for the initial screen, where you pick the type of food. Once you start drilling down on the choice, IF all options fit on the screen, I don't think there is any scrolling. You just pick the item (Pretty sure).

-The standby mode ON makes the display turn off after 5min of inactivity.

I have burned myself numerous times trying to insert the probe. I hope its much easier now with no cover. I know u said the probe from the L fits. Is it the same size and length cord compared to what you got with the M? I agree that a double convection should come with double everything.

A birdie told me that the M already has the software capable of things I had mentioned. What I don't know is if the hardware is already in the ovens to allow Wolf to connect or if this is some add on piece of hardware one might have to buy to get the functionality. My suggestion is to possibly create a New M thread specific to features/enhancements/settings we wish the software/touch screen could do and thus they can get direct feedback from users.

As suggested, started a new thread here: http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2892463/hands-on-with-the-new-wolf-m-ovens-good-bad-and-wish-they-woulda

But to quickly answer your probe question ... They look slightly different, but are basically the same size/shape and seem to work identically.

OK. Wasn't sure if it had a longer cord.

Oh, one thing you need to keep us posted on is in regard to is the braided gasket to seal the door. On the E & L there was a gap in the bottom where the pieces attached back onto the oven. On the M its one piece and its held together with black cover/tape. At first I thought this was one complete piece and would be better since its a complete seal all the way around. But, on my last visit to the showroom I was told that this is a spot that sometimes gets caught on things when using the bottom rack and can come loose. This may be the one overlooked part but lets see how this holds up.

Yeah, it's like a metal/fabric mesh and it does seem vulnerable. As I said above, I've already caught it on the racks. Mine doesn't have black tape though ... It's joined by what looks like some sort of fusion (much tighter weave than rest) in the middle of the bottom. (EDITED TO NOTE: I posted a close-up picture of the fusion point in the other thread, if you're interested.)

Also, I looked again, and the probes for the L and M are identical. Not sure why I initially thought they were slightly different. :)

Checked the gourmet settings again and there is no time even suggested for something like cookies. I set it up, arranged the racks and let it preheat, then opened the door, as if I were inserting trays, and then watched to see if it would beep or alert me (like it does with beep and message on screen at end of preheat to "insert food now") to check for doneness. Nope. Nothing. Not even after 20 min ... When any cookie would long be charcoal. :)

On the plus side, you can make changes to the gourmet settings, i.e. use them as a starting point and then adjust the temperature or probe settings to your own liking if you think the suggestions aren't what you like. They do ask a lot of relevant questions though ... Like if you enter "poultry" and then select "whole bird" they ask if it's brined or unbrined before suggesting cooking and probe temps. I think their probe temp is a little high at 180, and their rest suggestion a little short at 15 minutes for a 20+ lb. whole bird but I, apparently, live on the edge. Of course, having said that, I checked and their temp and doneness suggestions are the same for brined or unbrined so guess it's not so clever after all.

But is the cooking style the same for both? The gourmet controls all the settings so the mode can change even during cooking. Like starting at roast to convection roast etc. Would have to really run it and see if modes are exactly the same. Guessing not

The pic you posted in the other thread if the fused joint is what I was referring to. at the showroom it has come apart after repeated use and rubbing. Not sure if they enhanced this over the models that were out earlier. But at least is an easier to service part.

The oven will be able to be a connected appliance hopefully later this year. Still trying get particulars as to how that will work. But at least there would be hopes that settings we feel could be modified can then be enhanced. no idea what it may cost etc or what's involved.

I may create a specific thread called "M owners thread only - requested touch panel enhancements" which would then be specific enhancements we would like to see to the touchscreen functionality. Of course I need to get mine before I can create that thread ;).