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lavamama12345

Bluestar Water Boil

lavamama12345
9 years ago

Hello All. We are testing the performance of our new Bluestar 30" drop-in cooktop (propane). I am wondering how long I should expect it to take 1 quart of cold water to come to a full boil on the 22K burners (water at 55 degrees F, 1 quart All-clad pan, uncovered). Anyone care to test their own engines and see what you find??

Comments (40)

  • nycbluedevil
    9 years ago

    Not 100% what you asked but I routinely boil a pot of oatmeal on my 22K burners in a 2 qt All Clad pan with 3 cups of cold water. The water comes to a boil in less than three minutes.

    I will try to remember to boil a full quart later today and report back.

  • Mistman
    9 years ago

    Oh boy....... here we go again. Not very long, faster than some, longer than a few. I can say that when it is boiling it's very hot :)

    Sorry, just had to.....

  • springroz
    9 years ago

    Is this similar to "is your refrigerator running?"

  • springroz
    9 years ago

    Is this similar to "is your refrigerator running?"

  • lavamama12345
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thank you ncybluedevil for your answer. I didn't realize that this might be a sensitive topic. I really just want to know if the performance of our cooktop is as it should be.

    It takes approx. 8 minutes for me to boil a quart of water on our Bluestar cooktop. On our Coleman propane camp stove it takes about 5 minutes for the same water and pot variables. I guess I was expecting that the Bluestar would give us MORE heat and power than the camp stove. Am I wrong with that assumption? Am I overlooking something?

  • nycbluedevil
    9 years ago

    I answered because it seemed clear that you were seeking to figure out whether your cooktop is performing correctly.

    I think that eight minutes is a really long time to bring that small amount of water to a boil. I don't know anything about propane but is it possible that you are not getting sufficient "power" and that maybe there is an issue with your tank?

    I can bring about three quarts to a boil in 8 minutes. Sounds like something is wrong.

  • jwvideo
    9 years ago

    Propane could have a small effect but I'm wondering if lavamama's rather small pan is the problem here?

    To me, the 8 minute time sounds about right considering that we are talking about a full quart of water in a pan that (IIRC) is maybe 5 inches in diameter, if that. It may be too small to get much of an advantage from the big Blue-Star burner's maximum heat output.

    Also, lavamama, did you crank the burner wide open for your test? If so, you may well have a lot of the heat going up around the sides of the pan rather than onto the base.

    You might want to try a larger pan. For example, with my non-Blue Star gas range (15k-btu burner), it takes nearly eight minutes to boil one quart of water in my smallest sauce pan, a 1.5 qt. pot that is 5.5 inches in diameter. Put the same quantity (one quart) of tap water in a 10-inch-diameter stock pot and the time to boil drops to around 4 min 30 sec on the same burner. See what I'm getting at: a wider diameter pan gets more advantage from the burner power and the flame spread?

  • cookncarpenter
    9 years ago

    Per what JWVid says, I decided to play using two different saucepan sizes;
    1.5 qt. which is 6.5" dia.= 4 min. 30 sec.
    2.5 qt. @ 7-1/8" dia. = 4 min. exactly
    22k btu Bluestar 36RNB

  • cookncarpenter
    9 years ago

    ...I'm on natural gas, sorry I did not see that you are on propane. However at our vacation place we do have propane and a 1960's Kenmore range with 12k burners, and while I have not timed it, I'm pretty sure it is nothing close to 8 minutes... maybe more like 5 or 6 at the most...
    sounds like you have something else going on, hope you get it figured out...

  • gigelus2k13
    9 years ago

    To me it's quite obvious that the issue is caused by the nozzles. They are almost certainly the wrong size (i.e. for NG, not for propane). Because the NG nozzles are smaller, there's too little gas flowing, which reduces the effective power.

    As an exercise regarding how long it should take to bring a quart of water from 55*F to 212*F, let's see:
    time = 2lb*(212F-55F)*60min/(0.2 * 22000BTU/h) =~ 4min.

    I assumed that the heat transfer efficiency is 20%, but in reality it should be higher if the pan base is wide enough to cover the flame. So yup, you're not getting 22kBTU, very likely because of the wrong nozzles.

  • otterkill
    9 years ago

    I have a propane Bluestar. It took 4 1/2 minutes to a med simmer and 5 minutes for a full boil. I used a 1.5 quart saucepan (Cuinsanart) and 1 qt. of cold well water.

    This post was edited by otterkill on Thu, Dec 11, 14 at 7:58

  • lavamama12345
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Gigelus, Bluestar sent new orifices to see if that may be the problem - they are definitely propane. So, that's not it.

    Otterkill, thanks for the input. Your numbers are identical to ctycdm. That helps reinforce for me that our 7-8 minute boil time is not what we should be expecting.

    Our trouble is getting Bluestar to accept there is a problem. They seem to think a 7 minute boil time for 1 quart of water is acceptable.

    I should also perhaps note that we ordered our cooktop directly from Bluestar (that's a long story that doesn't have bearing here!). When it arrived, the control panel was upside down. I'm trying to attach a photo of what it looked like upon arrival. Bluestar had their approved installer fix this when the cooktop was installed, but I'm thinking there are more fundamental problems inside the stove that are causing our power issues.

  • weissman
    9 years ago

    The composition of the pot as well as it's size will also affect the boil time. Also, try covering that pot - it will boil faster.

  • rococogurl
    9 years ago

    Tell Bluestar congratulations. A Bosch electric kettle boils a quart of water faster than their range. 6:29 secs.

    If they think that's acceptable they must have moved to Colorado.

  • barryv_gw
    9 years ago

    I don't think it is a problem with orifices - propane orifices are smaller than NG, so if you had NG, the burner would be even hotter than it was with NG. Sounds like a problem with the gas piping somewhere before it gets to the manifold - otherwise it is hard to explain why all are performing so poorly. I don't know how the gas piping is set up, but it is possible they used flex piping that developed a crimp. If you want some solid test results, use a standard 9 inch disposable aluminum pie pan, and put in exactly 2 cups of 70 F temp water, and time how long it takes to come to a boil. I will then check it on my RNB on both the 18 and 22 k burners. That way you eliminate the issue of size or style of the pan.

  • lavamama12345
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks, barryv. It is mysterious. Your point about the orifices seems accurate to me, and we are certain that what we have are the correct propane ones.

    As far as the gas line, we have had the gas company that installed the line as well as the appliance technicians check the piping to the cooktop and nobody can find a problem.

    If I can find a disposable pie pan around here somewhere I will try your water boil test.

    Rococogurl, yes. Our Coleman camping stove does a better job, too.

  • rococogurl
    9 years ago

    If you can get a replacement or a refund and go with another brand you would be ahead of the game. Based on my appliance experience over the last 10 years they apologize and make excuses when something doesn't function properly but only step up when forced.

    Blue Star sells burner performance. When an electric tea kettle or camping stove beats the BS you're not getting what you paid for.

    The BS response is unacceptable IMO. It's unfortunate that normal inquires cannot get issues like this resolved quickly and efficiently.

  • barryv_gw
    9 years ago

    lavamama, when I said the there may be a problem in the piping it could be somewhere in the cooktop that there is a bend, or kink, or even something fell in the piping. Since it effects all the burners, it is not in one of the pipes that goes to any particular burner, but would likely be in a pipe leading to the manifold which feeds all 4 burners.

  • weissman
    9 years ago

    I'm surprised at all the replies claiming that there's something wrong with the cooktop. With all the problems people have with appliances, this one falls in the noise level as far as I'm concerned - 7 min. vs 5 min. to boil water is not necessarily a problem particularly with all the variables involved - size of burner, size of pot, height of grate above the burner, propane, etc.

    Does the cooktop perform well with other tasks such as wokking? If boiling water fast is your top priority, you should consider induction rather than gas.

    This post was edited by weissman on Sat, Dec 13, 14 at 15:23

  • lavamama12345
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Barryv, I think you may be onto something with your theory about there being a problem within the stove. The difficulty is getting anyone at Bluestar to recognize this.

    Weissman, the stove is definitely not performing with other cooking tasks. Using a wok would be impossible - the burners simply do not put out enough heat. I'm only using water boiling as a test to try to quantify the performance we are getting.

    Rococogurl, unfortunately your comment is definitely resonating with our experience. This has been quite a saga so far, and I'm not sure how we will get things resolved.

  • weissman
    9 years ago

    Are you sure propane isn't the issue? I know you have propane orifices, but often ranges lose 15% performance with propane over natural gas and I can't find any disclaimer on the Bluestar website that their propane ranges perform the same as natural gas. Anyway, good luck!

  • alexrander
    9 years ago

    Propane burns at a certain temperature, about the same as natural gas. You need enough pressure in the line to deliver the propane and to mix it with air and light it. I don't think there is any mystery to the BTU's, just how many flames are lit. The Bluestar range does nothing special to make it burn hotter, it just provides more gas and more burner holes.

    The air mixture may be set too low. But this you can tell by looking at the flames. In a slightly darkened room, check to see how high the flames come off the burner when set to max. Try all the various sized burners. Some have more holes, but the flame height should be about the same. If it the flames look lazy, sort of floating, you can mix in more air.

    By the way, electric kettles do test faster, that's been discussed here for ages.But if you take their top off, it takes much longer. Rococogurl . We are talking about a pan without a lid.

    And a drop in pressure would only effect it if all the burners were on at the same time, along with the oven. Then if the pressure was too low, a burner might sputter. That appears not to be the case.

    I think rococogurl is plain wrong. If you have flames they will burn at whatever temperature propane burns at. More flames = more heat. Only adjusting the air mixture will change this and not dramatically- but some. It's very easy to adjust, but the warning is if you add too much air, ignition could be delayed and it will light with a bang.

    Edit to note you don't have an oven, but a cooktop. Pressure should be regulated so that all burners can perform at the same time. If not, you have a pressure problem. But this wouldn't show up with just one burner going.

    This post was edited by alexr on Sat, Dec 13, 14 at 20:58

  • rococogurl
    9 years ago

    I could be wrong Alex.

    But it seems to me that a 22K gas burner, even with the step down for propane, should boil a quart of water faster than an electric kettle, which isn't especially fast. Some ranges report 4 mins, which feels right.

    And if I'd paid for a rangetop with high power burners, I'd be complaining, too.

    As you say, more flames, more heat.

  • alexrander
    9 years ago

    Well the poster is boiling without a lid, and putting a lid on it would make a huge difference if comparing it to another kettle. But that isn't the point really. Because they are comparing it to their campstove or another Bluestar with an open pan.

    I'm just trying to look at this logically and remove some of the fear. The cooktop is just just a delivery system. Yes their boiling times seem about 2 minutes slower than some. And maybe different pans could account for a small difference, and the water starting point might be slightly different, but it still seems a bit slow-

    So I suggest they look at the flame and listen to how they burn, Run all 4 burners on max at the same time. Maybe the safety shut off valve is only half open..-maybe the manifold or regulator is constricted... but observation is the first step.

  • lavamama12345
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I appreciate all these thoughtful responses. Here's an update on our progress.

    Over the weekend, Bluestar HQ put us in touch with a Bluestar dealer in Massachusetts. This guy seemed convinced that the cooktop isn't getting enough gas. The fact that he would state that there is even a problem is progress, but he thought the problem was with the gas lines leading to the cooktop. In addition, this guy told us that the 22K BTU burners on our cooktop were actually 25K BTU burners. That was a surprise to us - Bluestar HQ hadn't told us this bit of information!

    My husband was skeptical about the gas line theory, so he popped the lid on the cooktop. He checked out the parts numbers on the orifices and consulted orifice capacity charts (like this one: http://www.hvacredu.net/gas-codes/module2/Gas%20Orifice%20Capacity%20Chart.pdf). The orifices on our 22K (25K?) burners are labeled 59 which doesn't seem appropriate for the burner BTU rating.

    It's important to note that Bluestar HQ sent out these orifices as replacement orifices for this cooktop when we first contacted them about the problem. The appliance tech who installed these orifices in said they were the exact same orifices that were in the cooktop when we received it.

    We will be contacting Bluestar HQ today. So, the saga continues...

  • alexrander
    9 years ago

    Yes, the orifice seems small according to that chart- maybe that's it. Your cooktop also has a regulator, that has a spring inside it, under the cap screw. Sometimes these regulators are converted (adjusted) from one gas to another very simply. Although I think this would affect flame size

    Your pic shows the new 25K burners- they have a few extra holes along the inner circle.

  • tyguy
    9 years ago

    As others have stated...

    I used a 1.5qt Calphalon tri-ply *without* a lid. The starting temp of the water was 62.3 which makes sense since my thermostat in my house is set at 64, and I didn't let the faucet run so I was drawing room temp water that had been sitting in my pipes.

    At the 4 minutes mark the water was boiling around the edges of the pot and the water temp in center of pot was about 200.

    At the 4:30 mark it was a full boil with my thermometer reading about 206 in the center.

    At 5 minute mark the water was a roaring boil with temp hovering around 210, which would be about correct for my altitude.

    It's either the Bluestar or something with gas lines, do NOT settle for this kind of performance, or lack thereof.

  • lavamama12345
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Here's a promised update. We contacted Bluestar HQ to ask about the orifices. At first, the guy said that #59 was the correct orifice, but when further pressed he agreed that we have the wrong orifices. It seems the standard for Bluestar 22K burners should be #55. So, on Wednesday someone is coming to replace the 25K burners with 22K burners and put in the #55 orifices. Hopefully we will get better performance after that.

    The fact that orifice #55 is the Bluestar standard for the 22K burners does have us puzzled, though. The Gas Orifice Capacity charts we have found say that the #55 capacity (with 11 lbs pressure and LP gas) is for only 18888 BTUs (NOT 22K). We have asked Bluestar HQ, and the response at this point has been, "I'll need to ask our engineers about that." How can a 18K orifice burn 22K BTUs as Bluestar claims?

  • alexrander
    9 years ago

    You may want to keep the 25K burners or at least one. And yes,it seems that a #53 would be the right orifice for that 25K one. We don't know exactly what pressure the regulator is set for- yes, they do need to get their engineers involved.

  • tyguy
    9 years ago

    I think there may be other problems. I am still a bit skeptical that such a small difference in orifice is going to cut your boiling time in half.

  • lavamama12345
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Here's another update:

    We had the 25K burners switched to 22K burners and the orifices changed to Bluestar's standard orifice for the 22K burners. The change is remarkable. My water boil "test" now yields results more in line with what others are finding (approx. 5 minute boil time). It seems we have a functional cooktop at long last!

    The question still remains how Bluestar can claim that these burners are burning 22,000 BTUs when they use an orifice that is only rated for 18,888. We are continuing to press Bluestar for an answer on this. I can keep folks updated on this if there is any interest.

  • Gooster
    9 years ago

    @lavamama12345: Congratulations on solving your problem. I'd been following along with fascination. You should be commended on your persistence in pushing for a solution. Your chart, if I am reading it correctly, implies your output was being throttled down to the performance of a mid size burner on an entry level cooktop. (I had to repeat the water boil test on my non BS NG range and I get comparable performance even though the BTU rating is less).

    I'm also curious why the recommended orifice is smaller than might be indicated. I read an old thread on how people have modified their orifices to amp their BTUs on their BS burners.

    And I'm also puzzled how your cooktop could be so misconfigured -- even with replacement parts?

  • PRO
    Trevor Lawson (Eurostoves Inc)
    9 years ago

    Changing orifice most probably will not create more power.

  • barryv_gw
    9 years ago

    Lava, thanks for the update, I was following your posts to see if you could get it solved. Still mystified that the sent the wrong orifices the first time, replaced them with wrong orifices the second time, and it took the third time to get them right, but mistakes do happen. Glad you got it working.

  • racmrc
    9 years ago

    Propane - BS 48" rangetop

    9" stainless stock pot
    1 quart of water at 60 degrees
    22k burner

    4:45 for start of boil
    5:00 for full boil

  • lavamama12345
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks, racmrc. Since we had the orifices changed, we now are getting results similar to yours.

    Gooster and Barryv, it is remarkable the number of mistakes that were made. It certainly calls into question Bluestar's quality control procedures.

    We continue to await an answer about the orifice size and BTU burn. It seems the engineers are working on an answer for us. Treverlawson, I'd love to hear more about your comment. I am trying to understand how a burner could achieve a 22K BTU burn with an orifice that has a rated capacity of only 18.8K (with propane at 11" pressure).

  • PRO
    Trevor Lawson (Eurostoves Inc)
    9 years ago

    IMO ....The orifice size allows a certain amount of gas to go to the burner head. The size of the burner holes and the proximity of each hole to to the next will dictate how much gas can come through and how many btu's the burner will make and how efficient that burner head will be.

    ie...... The amount of water coming out of a water hose is dictated by the diameter of the hose. So increasing the size of the orifice would not increase btu's unless you increase the size and proximity of the holes.

    What appears to have happened her is that you now have a reduced oricife size, so less gas coming to the burner head resulting in better combustion more fitting to the holes and proximity of said holes.

    What I don't understand and have never heard of, is how you can have a burner that states 22k btu and Bluestar send you a orifice that's set for 18k btu. You can not IMO achieve the burner rating of 22k btu's

    But I could be wrong on all of the above.....

  • lavamama12345
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Treverolawson,

    I think we are largely in agreement. The initial orifice we were given was grossly undersized. Now we have Bluestar's standard orifice for their 22k BTU burner which still seems to be undersized. We are awaiting a reply from the Bluestar engineer (who won't be available until January) to explain how they get 22K BTU from an 8.8K orifice. Perhaps there is more physics in play than we are aware?

    It would be interesting to hear what orifices and corresponding BTUs are found with other cooktops.

  • Tom
    5 years ago

    @lavaman12345 I know this post is ancient and I'm sorry to bring it back. However, I just purchased the same Blue Star cooktop (NG) and am horrendously disappointed with power as well. Seems like the same issue! It takes 10 minutes for my boil test! The whole reason I bought this was to wok really hot! It's a joke.

    My question is about if your flame height changed after you had the orifices changed? Right now, my flame, on high won't reach the bottom of the grate. I've seen countless videos of other Blue Star flame heights on high reaching an inch or more ABOVE the grate.

    I'm just about to start my journey to try to get this resolved. I also had some workmanship issues right out of the box that makes me quite concerned.

    Also, what was the final word on orifice size from them?