The wall ovens which are consistently well reviewed on this board include the Miele, GE Monogram, Fisher & Paykel and Gaggenau.

Suggest you read the various Dacor threads before going there.

I will start off by saying my response is based soley on what I have found here and elsewhere on web and some in store shopping at the Great indoors. But here are a few things to consider and decide whats important. At this point most of my input is regarding features , price & reliability not actual use.

Things such as if hidden heating elements, full extension racks,( and can they be left in during self clean) speed cook ability or not, type of convection, available meat probe,rotisserie, oven size, performance, aesthetics and finally...price

For us we looked at Dacor, Thermador, Miele & Electrolux

Electolux seems newer to our market and we were not as attracted to its styling and price was higher so we eleiminaed it.

Liked the looks of the thermador but read more issues on reliability /service than others it seemed.

Miele was by most reviews on here one of the better performers but expensive and local suppliers talked about fewer service providers should the need arise.

Dacor was also expensive great looks, and and got very positive reviews for performance on here if you read the posts it seems but the thing I have read alot about was getting stuff damaged from factory or delivery service or supplier etc. They seem to fix it after time and stand behind it but why should stuff costing that much have so many issues to begin with.

Then after reading many posts thinking other appliances such as those listed above were best I kept seeing Monogram lines come up. Now this is my opinion only but the latest ZET models built since 2006 seem to be what I have read most about but the posts almost overwhelmingly seemed positive for performance, features, reliability, aesthetics, and price.

ZET double convections have these features we liked.
1. 4.4 cu ft and good space for most pans and sheets

2. All 3 racks are full extension racks and can be left in during self clean

3. Has meat probe that counts down the time till meat reaches desired temp ( if I understand correctly)

4. Has a window that shows the actual oven temperature

5. Has hidden heating element on bottom that makes it easier to clean

6. Has true convection and has fan that runs in 2 direction to give more even heating.

7. Had 2 nice styles to choose from The integrated and professional styles. Dials dont have all the glass push button fingerprint stuff

8. Price was more reasonable.

9. The reviews on here almost all were positive

10. They go well with the Advantium 240 speedcook microwave that many also give rave reviews to and we purchased.

Read as much as you can here and any other place and

Good luck with whatever you select

I am following this discussion with interest. We have 99.9% decided on the Miele oven, base dlaregely on reviews here and talks at the applicance store. Cookie baking is an important aspect for us. Can somebody with a Miele MasterChef give feedback on your in home cookie experience?

"he cookies, however, came out pancake-flat (though they were all baked very evenly). "

This is a quote from the OP's post which I must say I don't understand since most cookies are flat when baked.

When first starting out with my oven, I did peanut butter cookies from a mix. They baked perfectly and on the dot.

One point I've made before, and I'll make again, is that this oven requires a learning curve. There are not simple one-stop settings like bake, broil. So if the said cookies were baked on "bake" rather than "convection bake" or "surround" there could be a difference in the result -- but the OP didn't say how many sheets were baked or which setting was used.

I highly recommend my oven. For me it's a big advance and I've detailed how and why on previous threads. It continues to perform and I continue to learn how to make it perform. It's not your Mom's oven.

Rococogurl,

I'll say! My ovens were always quite basic. You pick either bake or broil and if bake, you pick the temperature.

Now with my 3 week old Miele ovens, I'm faced with the selections on bake (regular, surround, convection and intensive), not to mention roast (with its subcategories) etc., I find myself pondering the most minute issues. Like really what is the difference between surround bake and surround roast? And if it's something with meat in it, like a lasagna, do I want to bake it or roast it, and if so, using what subcategory.

But, it's been a heck of a lot of fun.. My kids are joshing me that I'm cooking more than usual, although my youngest says it doesn't matter, it still tastes like "crappy food".

I haven't done cookies. (Older child has an egg allergy so it limits my ability to bake) But I've really enjoyed these ovens (even if I'm only able to cook a more sophisticated version of "crappy food".)

Rococogurl,
I will be receiving my new Miele MC oven on Friday. Based on your response above, and the response from Picklenose, is there any best way to learn to use the miele and all of its millions of selections? I'm serious about this is there adequate material and manuals that come with the oven that gives adequate information to the beginner?
Thanks,
Jane

momotom,

Don't get me wrong. The only difficulty is being introduced to the plethora of choices (particularly for someone who had just done bake and broil previously.) The manual is very good and I keep it out.

Additionally, the MasterChef options do the thinking for you, if you don't want to "manual drive". And if all else fails, you can call the 800 # and ask the Miele people their opinion. I've called them with all kinds of stupid questions, and they're always a pleasure to deal with.

The ovens are great! I have no regrets. I even love the all black.

pickle & momo -- I'm finding it comes with time. I keep referring to the basic manual. But I believe I saw a more extensive oooking manual on the Miele website. I think it was lovestocookfor6 who requested it or found it. Maybe she'll post about it. I haven't asked them for anything additional as I figure out what I want to do. But it might be useful to call them and see what they can send as support.

Clearly someone who knows how to cook helped devise these settings. I haven't yet figured out whether I like some better than others though I know that convection bake produces a rather delicate heat stream -- good for most multiple sheets of most cookies but maybe not for the monsters.

It's really learning how each heat setting functions and what it's best for. I knew I was signing on for this when I bought the oven. My surprise is that it's less annoying than I thought it would be.

Yesterday, I was making an onion focaccia -- an old recipe but one I've done once before since I had the oven. It came out perfect last time. But I didn't write down the oven setting.

Their idea is to make it a favorite -- I did that with my meat loaf. But I forgot.

So I baked on Intensive (bottom heat + convection) since I know that bread dough rises most in the first 15 minutes. I thought about Surround (top + bottom heat, no convection) but that has top heat and with bread dough you don't want that to cook before the rise is over.

Now, I note heat setting on recipe; easiest.

One thought. When I was talking to the Miele folks before the purchase, their person who does the cooking demo told me that the oven is basically set up for convection and to basically forget about the conventional (i.e. non convection) settings. In using it, I understand that reasoning. Though, I wouldn't need convection to bake lasagna, fex. and would probably use surround.

Inevitably some settings will be more used and favored that others. I'm definitely an autoroast person already.

But since I'm also someone who cooks "crappy food" it's always an adventure. Hey, we'll never be as good as Mickey Ds so why worry? LOL

Thanks for the feedback.

Mindstorm, thanks for the tip about Yale Appliance - I just contacted them - we're going to have a chat with their in-store chef and then we may end up cooking on their ovens too.

Rococogurl, the problem with the cookies is that they have no height to them (they are more like crisps than cookies) - they are too flat. These are really typical chocolate chip cookies - there's nothing unusual about them. We used Convection Bake for 2 batches, and then used Surround for the 3rd batch (we were being guided by the folks at the Center). We used 2 different ovens (a PerfectClean and a SelfClean).

While I believe that there may be a setting for the Miele that would result in properly baked cookies for this recipe, it shouldn't be this hard (i.e. the Wolf and the GE Profile bake these cookies just fine on Convection Bake. And I have no reason to promote either of these ovens, as we aren't going to buy either one).

We installed a 30" Miele double wall oven just before Christmas and pretty much cooked continuously over a three day period (16 at dinner on Christmas day). Rather than try to learn the quirks of all the Masterchef settings and various heat modes, we just ran on conventional bake and set temperatures to suit. All baking including cookies, cake, yeast rolls, poached fish, etc. were excellent. We haven't broiled or run the rotisserie yet.

Admitted the cookies were cut-out sugar and gingerbread so they were "flat" because they were supposed to be. We used the defrost setting for proofing because the proofing setting seemed to be fixed at 125F but defrost can be set as one pleases. Navigating the Miele menu systems to contol the ovens was simple and straightforward even for those in the family not technical gurus. My son-in-law who is a robotics engineer had the entire menu tree memorized in about two minutes without even looking at the manual, but that probably is not typical.

We went with the Miele as that is the only oven choice I could identify that did not have complaints of one sort or another regarding quality and service. Installation was by a Miele certified tech which earned us a second year on the warranty.

Bottom line, so far we are absolutely glad of out choice. PS we elected the perfect clean rather than self clean -- haven't made enough of a mess to comment yet.

bboy -- Got me. I agree, cookies shouldn't be hard.

We installed double 27 inch Gaggenau convection ovens right before christmas, and ABSOLUTELY love them. We cooked straight through christmas and new years. We baked, broiled, rotisseried etc., EVERYTHING came out great. My daughter is in Culinary school and was home for the holidays and said she was in love with just how well they performed.

dave2007 - by any chance are you located in NJ, and if so, can you tell me how you found your Miele authorized installer?

(I'm trying to find one to install my 30" Wall oven and 2 new Excella DW in 2 weeks - btw, for those that don't know, if you buy Miele and have an authorized installer do the installation, you will double your man. warranty and likely get better performance from what I've learned on GW.)

Call Miele. I'm sure they maintain a list and can help you. (Or perhaps one of their authorized dealers in the area can recommend someone.)

For testing, try Percy's in Worcester; that is where we bought our Dacor. I have the double wall Millenia ovens -- purchased in 2004 -- and have been very happy with them.

We've had our Miele oven for 3 months now and yes, there is a learning curve to it. But fortunately this is one manual that is acutally helpful! The Christmas turkey with the meat probe and masterchef setting was perfect, best one I've ever had ;-)

But I also had issues with my cookies. In my case I think I should have taken out the grease filter which is recommended for cookie baking. Did you do that in the test kitchen? It's not a big deal to do, I just didn't think of it at the time.

if at all possible, put all of my purchases on my American Express card. It automatically doubles the manufacturers waranty. My VISA card does also, as it is a "signature" type card. Check your credit cards- you might just have a double waranty!
"

What about Bosch Ovens? I have looked at all as well and love the Miele ( I really like the streamlined controls - over the Wolf or Dacor.)however do not like the fact that they don't have a full extension Rack.

Like Beatrix, I thought of the grease filter. It should be in place at the back of the Miele ovens for cooking meats, but removed for baking. (I leave it in for items like lasagna, too.)

I have the 30-inch double wall ovens, self-cleaning, and am very, very happy with them. I wouldn't even say that the learning curve was terribly steep. However, the design re: the roast probe isn't very good; our probe burned almost immediately (it drops easily onto the hot racks), and the probe setting has been touchy ever since. (I have not called for service.)

I do much more baking than cooking of meats. (But "YAY!!!" for the Autoroast!!!) I love the Miele ovens; especially the very nice "proof" setting. I have frequently been proofing rolls in the bottom oven, while simultaneously baking sheets of already-risen rolls in the top oven; no problems.

I do find, also, that the rule that says temperature should be lowered 25 degrees Fahrenheit, when using convection, is not hard-and-fast; that is definitely part of the "learning curve." That could also account for flat cookies, perhaps... too low or high a temperature?

No problems here with cookies -- chocolate chip; oatmeal raisin; flakey Christmas pie-crust-type cookies; flat, rolled cookies (e.g., gingerbread). Cakes, breads, and rolls: excellent.

I would love to have the roll-out racks that are not offered on Miele ovens. On the other hand, the roasting pans that came with the self-clean Miele seem to be made of the "Perfect Clean" material, and they are a snap to clean. Self-clean feature works very well; takes a long time, of course.

I would buy these ovens again. (But, too, I would not overlook the Wolf or Gaggenau.)

Good luck!

-- Nean

Miele makes a roll out racks for the European market. When I asked customer service in Canada they indicated not enough demand????? I would be sold or should I say my DW would be sold. DW is 5' 2" and would like the additional telescoping. No the size from Europe will not fit the 30" oven.

bboy - I've re-read your original post and am still not sure whether it implies you've cooked TJ's cookies at home before? And just because you didn't "expect" those results even though the dough was a bit defrosted, do you have convincing evidence to believe this wasn't a primary cause?

What I really want to say is, I find baking can be very quirky. My mom followed the same Toll House recipe at least once a week every week of my life growing up, and we never knew what to expect from batch to batch. If you like that oven otherwise, I'd give the cookies another try. I'm sure we'd have heard about it by now if the Miele couldn't bake a good cookie.

I haven't seen the Dacor ovens in person but recently saw one in a magazine add. What surprised me was that it looked like having a visible heating element. Is it really not covered? That would be an absolute no-go for me.

We made Toll House cookies last week in the Miele. Three trays on convection bake at 325. They came out just fine. There were three in the back on one of the trays that came out slightly more well done than the others. None were any flatter than what I am used to. I'm pretty sure I remembered to remove the grease filter.

fenworth,

We've made the TJ cookies tons of times at home using a GE Profile oven (as stated in my original post). We also made them in a Wolf oven at a Wolf center. In both the GE and the Wolf, the cookies come out fairly "normal", even when the dough is completely defrosted (which is not recommended).

We did return to Miele, used a different oven in the store, and got the same flatter-than-flat cookies, even with a TJ box that was bought 15 minutes before entering the Miele store.

I can't say whether or not the grease filter was installed during cookie baking - as a newbie to the Miele oven, that's not something I would have been aware of (I kind of hope the people working at the Miele center know how to use their own ovens.)

Maybe it's this particular Miele store installation, or this particular cookie dough recipe, but there's definitely something different about the way the Miele ovens we've tried bake these cookies.

Sorry BB - it was the "easier than whipping up a mix on the spot" comment that made me wonder if the "we've obviously baked at home many times" statement meant you've baked CC cookies a lot or TJ's CC cookies a lot. That's all. Sounds like the Miele is not for you.

Updated advice?

I have had the Miele Double wall ovens with self clean for a year and a half. I bake cookies as a side job and never have any problems with baking anything. I doubt an oven can make your cookies bake flat unless the dough is too warm or they used the wrong setting.I bake almost all of my cookies on 325 convection. My decision was between the Miele and Wolf and went with Miele due to the rotisserie function. Chickens are awesome done this way! I still am in love with Wolf Ovens and ranges..

I'm doing a gut reno in NJ and am buying all new. I'm not much of a cook but want a properly equipped kitchen that we can grow into. Yesterday I was in the A&D building in Manhattan looking at WOLF/SZ. I looked at the Wolf ovens and was suitably impressed. THEN I went to Miele and was blown away by the MasterChef options on their wall ovens. Is it really as good as it seems? Bascally it looked like everything was thought of and that if you show up with the food, pick what you want done with it, the oven will do it for you. I dunno... I gotta say that if it works as well as it seems it's a no-brainer. Can someone tell me the cons vs. Wolf. Thanks!

For those of you who chose Miele a few years back, can you comment once again? I think for me it's between the Miele, GE and Electrolux. I would also be getting the combo microwave/convection (or in the case or Miele, Speed Oven) for the "2nd" or half oven. Thanks!