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Miele Inspira Dishwasher even in California-no airgap?

Posted by pedimom (My Page) on
Mon, Dec 22, 08 at 9:31

I have gotten alot of great advice on this forum and had a question about my dishwasher.

I live in California (bay area) and have a friend who installed a Miele dishwasher with no airgap. My GC says that I have to have one for code. I am wondering if he is wrong or did my friend install without permits maybe? She was told by her GC that the Miele's did not need the airgap because of the way they are built.

Anyone with advice or know the California codes?


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Miele Inspira Dishwasher even in California-no airgap?

Your local plumbing code may require an airgap to pass inspection, but there's no requirement that says it has to be used. Quite a few posters here have had the airgap installed, then either ignored it or removed it after their final inspection and put a soap dispenser or some other accessory in its place.

Miele dishwashers have a built-in anti-siphon device so an airgap isn't needed. In fact, Miele specifically recommends against connecting the drain line to an airgap which can constrict the flow of draining water. So, even though you have an airgap in place to satisfy local code, you can simply ignore it and safely connect the Miele drain line directly to the dishwasher drain nipple on the side of your garbage disposer or to the dishwasher drain nipple on your sink drain line. The built-in anti siphon device on the dishwasher will prevent any possibility of water from the house drain lines being siphoned into the dishwasher.

There is no state-wide code in California requiring an airgap, but your city or county may have such a requirement.


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RE: Miele Inspira Dishwasher even in California-no airgap?

We have done projects in Santa Barbara and San Fran in which no airgaps were used with Miele DWs.


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RE: Miele Inspira Dishwasher even in California-no airgap?

Different locales have different codes, even in the same county. If they are a friend, you're not going to turn them in even if they did violate the code, right? So what does it matter? All that matters is what YOUR local inspctor thinks! If your local codes require it, there is no fighting the inspector to get around it. YOu'll just create trouble for yourself. Put it in, and perhaps use the hole for a soap dispenser at a later time after the inspection.


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RE: Miele Inspira Dishwasher even in California-no airgap?

Hi pedimom,

You still need a high loop, if the P trap is in the kitchen and not in the basement.

All dishwashers work well without an air gap.
This fact doesn't contradict the above posts.

As you wrote it in your first post. it can be misleading to say that Miele's don't "need an airgap because of the way they are built" --

I emailed Miele this morning about this topic. After three follow-up questions by email, I think I can say with certainty that Miele is not against connecting the drain line to an airgap. However I don't want to be the sole person defending Miele or their Customer Support people. Misunderstandings can happen too.

Note that it may be false to say "... Miele specifically recommends against connecting the drain line to an airgap which can constrict the flow of draining water..."

Many dishwashers have anti backflow devices.

In the G2430SC manual I found this: "...Otherwise the water inside the dishwasher may siphon out during the wash program... " This makes me think their anti-backflow is a one-way device preventing water from flowing back into the DW (this can be "siphoning", in plumbing terms).

Another use of the term "siphoning" is to describe water being siphoned out of the DW, not into it. This can happen when you route the drain hose straight through the floor. More about this if necessary, later.

Read your Use and Care guide. Call Miele. Report your findings her on this thread for more sharing.

See http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/appl/msg121347519992.html

David

Here is a link that might be useful: clear description of air gaps and high loops


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RE: Miele Inspira Dishwasher even in California-no airgap?

David - Miele has ways of dealing with the siphoning of water out of the DW in instances where the drain needs to be routed out of the unit straight into the floor. This measure is built in and is about a 30 second modification.

These represet the most sophisticated best engineered DWs in the global marketplace today. Also remember that public sewers and water supplies exsisted in Europe long before those in America and you can bet your dishes they've seen and thought about and most likey solved any problem that the US plumbing code has attempted to solve or regulate.

Why do yall suppose an airgap is required now but wasn't in the 70's and is in some places but not others? A reaction to bozo plumbers incorrectly installing DW's and government's attempt to take care of it sheep. All of this is packaged nicely under the guise of public health.

A Miele DW Does NOT need an air gap , and one will have NO benefit if added to the system. I also challenge anyone to show me in the UPC (plumbing code) where one (airgap specifically) is mandatory!


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Total agreement

I'm glad you agree with me anntss. High loops are great!

Good to know there is a 30 second mod, too.

I'm glad you agree with me anntss. No DW needs an air gap.

Anything else?


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RE: Miele Inspira Dishwasher even in California-no airgap?

Dallas, TX, code requires an air gap. We were able to have our Miele dishwashers (2 Excellas) installed last year without the air gap by showing the city inspector documentation from Miele that certifies that Miele has built in air gap protection, satisfying the code. This is not in the Miele manual; I requested additional documentation from Miele in advance, after reading about it on this forum.

We also appreciate the leak detection feature.


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RE: Miele Inspira Dishwasher even in California-no airgap?

David seems to have this "high loop" requirement theory of his on the brain. He's not going to give up on it until he convinces someone that he's right. He's not...but it makes no difference. He'll keep flogging the notion as long as anyone will pay attention.

While a high loop probably doesn't affect the dishwasher's operation, it's totally superfluous on a Miele dishwasher.

On a dishwasher without a built-in anti-siphon device (and there are many), a high loop offers some protection against siphoning, but it's not a fool-proof substitute for an airgap. That being said, situations that can lead to siphoning are not common. Most dishwasher owners will never experience it, with or without some type of anti-siphoning device.


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RE: Miele Inspira Dishwasher even in California-no airgap?

Yes David - Miele does not NEED a high loop.

wa8's last paragraph about sums it up, a high loop and/or airgap has it's place, but is not the be all - end all of DW plumbing. The code and these devices/techniques are meant for most installs in most situatiuons but are not the authority in every case.


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RE: Miele Inspira Dishwasher even in California-no airgap?

Whether the dishwasher needs it or not, in SF the airgap is required by code. Despite our dishwasher specifically not requiring one, we didn't pass our inspection because of the lack of an airgap. Luckily we had a soap dispenser which we removed so we could use that (already drilled through the soapstone countertop) opening for the airgap. Once the inspection was signed off, the airgap came out and the dispenser went back in!


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RE: Miele Inspira Dishwasher even in California-no airgap?

Part of the documentation we received from Miele was a City of Los Angeles document approving Miele dishwashers without an airgap. LA still requires all other DWs to be installed with an airgap.


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RE: Miele Inspira Dishwasher even in California-no airgap?

thank you all for the advice. I guess i should go to my City department to see if the miele's are required to have an airgap. My contractor has done several homes in SF and the Peninsula where i live so I'm sure he's familiar with the codes, however, i don't think he has installed a Miele. I will also contact Miele to get verification from them.


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RE: Miele Inspira Dishwasher even in California-no airgap?

Do we need an airgap for the fisher and paykel dishdrawers?


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RE: Miele Inspira Dishwasher even in California-no airgap?

There is no DW that needs an air gap. It is not a DW requirement.

I repeat that For All makes or models of DW there is no need for an air gap.

It is totally false to claim anything about one brand or make in relation to air gaps. E.g. that one brand is so good because it alone doesn't need an air gap. (I have seen this written all over GW for ages so I am posting it here now to be real clear.

-david


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RE: Miele Inspira Dishwasher even in California-no airgap?

So David, what's your point? I don't believe anyone has ever claimed that any dishwasher requires an air gap. All dishwashers will function just fine without one.

The point was, that there are some local or municipal plumbing codes that require an air gap if there is a place in the kitchen for a dishwasher installation. The plumbing code requirement has nothing whatever to do with any mechanical requirement of a particular brand or model of dishwasher.

There is not, however, any prohibition against bypassing the air gap. You simply need to have an air gap in place to pass the plumbing inspection, which in most cases is done before any appliances are installed anyway.

After the final inspection, if you're installing a dishwasher with a built-in anti-siphon device, you can rest assured that bypassing the air gap poses no increased risk that water from your house drain lines could be siphoned into the dishwasher.

On the other hand, if in the absence of a built-in anti-siphon device you want the same protection, you'll need an air gap. A high loop does not afford the same level of assurance against siphoning. Plunging a clogged drain with a dishwasher drain line attached, could result in water being forced into the dishwasher. Only an air gap or a built-in anti-siphon device would prevent that. A high loop won't do it.

In and of itself, back-flow into the dishwasher from your house drain lines isn't the end of the world, and certainly poses no threat to public health and safety. It could be a bit yucky, though. No one relishes the thought of contaminated drain water coming into contact with their dishwasher interior. Beyond that, if enough water were forced into the dishwasher by plunging, it could result in an overflow, potentially leading to some flood damage.


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RE: Miele Inspira Dishwasher even in California-no airgap?

I was discussing this with a friend of mine, who has a general contracting license. I thought he looked it up (I live in Ca.) and said it WAS in the code.

I could be wrong, and if I see him soon, I'll get the code, or apologize.


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RE: Miele Inspira Dishwasher even in California-no airgap?

How do I know if the fisher and paykel drawers have the anti-siphon device. I was told that they did and that i could just put the airgap in to pass inspection and then take it out. My plumber said there was an additional part needed from F&P and I am trying to figure out what that is.


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RE: Miele Inspira Dishwasher even in California-no airgap?

I went to the F&P showroom in a big city. The showroom run by the Distributor.

There, they supposedly know everything. They all assumed I would run a high loop. (Almost equivalent to an air gap, but under the counter top.)

It is good to plan for a high loop. All DW pumps are designed to push water H2O up a little distance in the hose. This is normal.

-david


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