People will argue this both ways. You are right to be fearful of ruining the floors dragging the heavy appliances and cabinets over them if you put the floor down first. But putting the flooring down last can be a problem if the appliances ever have to be moved for servicing.

I think the best approach is to put down plywood under the cabinets and appliances the same thickness as the flooring. That way every thing is at the correct height. You don't need whole sheets, shims under the cabinets and such will do.

IMHO.

Thanks weedmeister. That is what he wanted to do. Plywood down as close to the same thickness as the floor. Thanks for you HO I appreciate it.

BTW...my personal opinion is that hardwood floors should extend under all appliances and cabinets. This will make everything easier in the long run.

Whether you sand and finish the hardwood flooring before installing the appliances and cabinets is up to you. But the water resistance somewhat provided by the finishing will potentially save the flooring should there be a spill that leaks under the cabinets.

Thanks for the tip Mrtimewise. I'm afraid my Sub Zero freezer will have to be pulled out and although we have porcelain floors I think those strips will make it easier and hopefully eliminate the chance of the wheels scratching the tile.

In a perfect world you would install 3/4" ply under the appliances that are near a water source at the same time as 3/4" wood is installed everywhere else and then polyurethane it all with an extra coat on the ply.

I read here (5 years ago) that the reason to use ply under the appliances is that the heat from the appliances will cause the hardwood to shrink and create gaps - if there is a leak the water could seep through the floor for a while before you discover it. A leak would puddle on the ply and you would notice it sooner. Either way you have water damage to deal with.

I did it on my fridge, sink, dishwasher section. The hardwood has to go a bit under the appliances/water-source cabinets so the ply doesn't show so you'd still need to find a way to protect the floor.

We have a 3/4" plywood subfloor under the appliances along the sink run. It has been that way for 20 years, through a several appliances. No problems. This remodel, we stripped to the studs, refinished the floors, and left the subfloor.

Stephanie

Thanks for all the info. So my GC is planning on coming over tomorrow.

Mrtimewise, there isn't a woodcraft store near by, are there any other retailers that carry it. It sounds like a great product. I could get some in the AM and have it here for when they install if there is somehwere close by that carries it. Home depot or Ace?

Judeny, if I go the ply wood route, it would be done before the rest of the floor goes in. Does that make a difference? Also, will water puddle on the ply wood without the polyurethane or does it need that to be more water resistant.

Thanks again for all the advice!

Okay, another question on slick strip. They have to move the fridge and the stove from my garage through the front door of the house (I think there is a couple stairs) then across the concrete slab floor to their final resting spot in the kitchen. When do you put that stuff on - after you move it to protect against future moves or before? I'm not worried about the floors now...they are a mess, but I will be completely stressed if we have to move either of these gigantic things over the new floors.

I'm looking online to see if there are any local stores, so far no luck. :(

Thanks.

The poly on the plywood is a good idea. Ask for exterior grade plywood if it is available.

I think when it comes to pulling out the fridge after the new floor is down, you will need to put something on the floor to protect it, like a thin sheet of luan (sp?) that you can get from HD or Lowes.

Sorry, but I don't have any further knowledge of specific sources of the UHMWPE. Try an ACE hardware. I doubt Home Depot has it, but you never know...

Perhaps a supplier of workshop tools might be in your area. Strips of UHMWPE are commonly used to line the bed of a table saw.

You can order it on line for overnight delivery from Woodcraft. McMaster-Carr carries it, too, but they are only mail order and more industrial in nature.

Where are you located?

I'd place the strips in the final location for the appliances. The 1/8th inch thick "Pressed Wood" I mentioned (certainly available at Home Depot) can be placed in front of the opening for the appliance. The movers will use a dolly or perhaps multi-man lift straps to bring the appliances into the kitchen. They can place the appliance onto the pressed wood, and then easily shimmy the appliance into the opening once the rear legs of the appliance are slid rearward the first inch or so and onto the UHMWPE strips.

Thanks everyone for all the great advice. I swear sometimes my contractor looks at me and is like how does she know that! They are installing the fridge now and I had no idea what a big ordeal this was going to be. Wish me luck and a big huge thanks!!

Hi organicgirl,

Please post a follow-up and let us know how it went.
I am going to be putting down hardwood floors in my kitchen as well and had not even considered these issues. Now I'm really worried.

Dumb question: When mrtimewise and other posters said to put down plywood under the appliances, does this mean you put down plywood *instead* of the regular hardwood you are using for your flooring? So, for example, you would put down plywood in an area just large enough to cover where your refrigerator is going. And then gradually start putting down your regular hardwood?

So you have a mix of plywood and regular hardwood when you've finished?

Sorry for the dumb questions. I want to be forewarned.

pbear

Yes, a mix, but not visible since the plywood would stop at the toe kick.

Some people do the whole floor first. I consider it a tradeoff. The plywood should be cheaper than the flooring and hence a money savings.

Thanks weedmeister!

So the plywood is more water resistant than the regular hardwood flooring in case there is a leak (assuming you put a coat of poly on it)?

I'd put hardwood everywhere. We did, but the cabinets were installed before the floor was finished. (Timing was such that the cabinets were installed before the floor finisher was available.) The openings for the dishwasher and refrigerator were not yet filled so the floor surfaces there were finished.

Tile's easier...no problem with what goes under the appliances, and you can move them without worrying about good porcelain tile being damaged.

It's also resistant to water leaks, and casual water spills that sit around for a long time rather than getting wiped up.

And I like tile *smile*.

-Roger

I'd go hardwood all the way to the walls.

While you would save some money by installing the cabinets first and then flooring to the cabinets, there are disadvantages: problems with servicing the appliances (especially the dw), dealing with gaps if you ever remodel your kitchen, and (more of a quibble) having your countertop be an inch or so lower than if the cabinets were placed on the hardwood.

Removing a dw when you have to tilt and lift it over the lip of the hardwood can be tricky and sometimes requires lifting the countertop. And unless you have laminate, that's something you really don't want to do. That can be avoided by putting plywood under the dw, but with some dw's there then won't be enough clearance between the dw and the countertop (since the dw is now sitting 3/4"-1" higher than the cabinets).

That in turn can be avoided by putting plywood under the cabinets AND the appliances. In essence, you put 3/4" heavy duty plywood along the walls and you hardwood to the plywood and put your cabinets and appliances on top. But by the time you've done that, why not avoid the hassles and just put hardwood all the way to the walls?

I am struggling with this issue as well. If we choose not to put the flooring in to the walls then we will do just as geo91324 says -

**putting plywood under the cabinets AND the appliances

In answer to the question -

** But by the time you've done that, why not avoid the hassles and just put hardwood all the way to the walls

maybe because -

if the flooring is down before the cabinets and appliances are installed then you risk the flooring being damaged. (We will have - I think - engineered wood over a slab floor)

AND

if the flooring needs to be replaced sometime (I worry about water damage - seems every 3 to 4 years we have a water disaster) what does one do if the flooring is running under the cabinets?

So while I am still weighing the options here I lean towards putting the floor in after the cabinets. However, I am considering putting flooring under the appliances as well.

You would install ply instead of hardwood and it would be level with the hardwood. Yes, it would go under the run of cabinets containing a water source (dw, fridge with icemaker, etc). It is essential to poly the ply with more than one coat. Again, the reason for it is not to protect the hardwood floor it is to detect leaks sooner that if the leak were on hardwood and seeping between the cracks. Even well finished and climate controlled, the wood expands and contracts seasonally creating openings between the boards.

Although some flooring, like cherry, is relatively stable with temperature and humidity (albeit soft), others aren't as stable. In most cases there should be a little room for the floor to expand. Normally this occurs under the base molding along the walls. If hardwood is run to plywood, there may be a gap between them sometimes, and there may be excessive pressure there other times.

Some plywoods give more than others, but the plywood under a heavy appliance should be voidless plywood intended for laminate floor underlay. (Cabinet grade plywood might be ok.) I think it is easier to run the wood to the walls than fit it to plywood.

Engineered floating floors, however, are probably not suitable for heavy appliances and plywood would be needed regardless.

For my cherry hardwood floor, I use two pieces of quarter-inch thick hardwood plywood (Haldex) under the refrigerator along the sides where the wheels are, with a thin strip of aluminum on top of each piece to spread the load. This keeps the refrigerator from sinking into the floor.

To minimize water damage I recommend using leak sensors under refrigerators and other locations where leaks are possible. These can be of the type used to shut off water sources, or the type that just alarm. Getting plywood wet instead of hardwood wet is not a lot more desirable.

kas

Many people have mentioned the "expense" of putting flooring under the cabinets, but the actual financials are usually a wash. It will be more expensive material wise to put the flooring under the cabinets, but it will be a much easier flooring install. It'll be more expensive labor wise to have your flooring person cut plywood to put down under the cabinets and then do even more cutting and fitting to get the wood to go around that plywood. In the end, labor usually being more expensive than the product, it usually makes more sense to just put the wood over the whole floor and then install the cabs and appliances.

If the wood ever needs to be changed out, it's no big deal to cut it out right at the toekick line and install different flooring.

The big risk in wood flooring in a kitchen is the inevitable moisture damage. Yes, "traditional" homes used to have wooden floors in kitchens, but there was no subfloor. The wood was laid directly on the joists, and anyone who has ever lived in an older home knows that the expansion/contraction of that wood over the years left gaps between the planks that modern homeowners would throw their hands up in horror over having. :) Well,those gaps and no subfloor let any water problems drain right out of that wood floored kitchen with only minimal damage to the floor. The water didn't stand on it for hours. Today's modern building methods have a subfloor that will trap the moisture, or a cement slab that will trap moisture when you have that refrigerator water line leak. So, getting moisture alarms shouldn't be optional if you want a wood floor in a modern kitchen. It will help to alert you to when you have a problem. And, it is when, not if! It's a wet workroom after all!

Not a pro, but I would definitely run whatever floor under the cabinets and appliances. Our kitchen had the floor updated, but it was installed around the existing cabinets. Now, if I want to change the configuration of the cabinets on one side (remove peninsula and put refrigerator/freezer drawers straight in line with existing cabinets and under a new countertop), I also have to replace the floor since the flooring under the peninsula won't be the newer stuff (laminate which I don't like so much anyway). Makes a minimal change in my small galley kitchen with family room at one end much more complicated and expensive.

kaseki (and others),

Can you recommend a leak sensor? I was wondering if there were such a thing....sounds like something you would definitely want in a kitchen with hardwoods.

Just wondered if anyone could recommend a particular one?

pbear

I use several of the products made by FloodStop. I install the motorized ball valves under the floor in series with the plumbing, and put the sensors on top of the floor in the cabinets, under the refrigerator, etc. That way, any leaks occurring before the valves will be limited to the basement.

This configuration also helps discriminate where the leak is by what faucet doesn't work. Whole household systems shut all the water down, and have their merit, but they do force the resident to engage in a whole house leak hunt.

kas

Thanks kas! I'll definitely look into the FloodStop products. Would I get the plumber to install this?

pbear

Not mentioned yet are the concerns about the countertop height. If you raise the floor the dishwasher and stove may not fit. So, for a fixed hardwood floor, I would install that first and cabinets and appliances over it.

If it's a floating hardwood floor, don't but it under the cabinets as it needs room to expand/contract. Raise up cabinets with plywood the same thickness as the floor plus underlayment.

valid points on both sides. Have experiences with all hardwood and mixed (plywood and hardwood). On a full gut renovation we installed hardwood throughout (contractor's preference). After 10 years, no problems including a leaky sink, 36" gas range and all other appliances over the wood. Looks fine. On a renovation on a second property had mixed flooring. Floors had to be redone twice: wood and stain matches and the toe kick problem mentioned above were all hassles. (Cyn427, that might as well be my house--peninsula move got all this started) Wish prior owner had run hardwood throughout; next time (hopefully never) would run all hardwood throughout. A caveat: both houses are 100 years old, so no slabs or related problems other than 100 year old joists and not a right angle left in either place.