Return to the Appliances Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
Help! I hate my new Miele!

Posted by acgummad (My Page) on
Sun, Nov 24, 13 at 12:09

I have the new Dimension Plus. Does not clean dishes. All my silverware has become totally etched. Do I need to use a specific soap?? Water hardness has been adjusted already within dishwasher settings. I want my old Bosch back!


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

That's my new machine too. It's taken me some time to learn to use the 3rd draw (haha, always reminds me of the 3rd eye). When I first started, I had troubles because I put too much in the utensil rack.

At first I had some marks on my eating utensils. They are not silver plated, just the usual daily kind.

After reading the Miele instructions, I:

-raised the silverware drawer to the highest position so nearest the water

-cleaned big food items or sticky items slightly off

-laid the spoons, forks, knives with handle resting on the rack, allow most soap/water contact with the eating part

-spread out out utensils more so enough space around them for water/soap to attack

-put big utensils either in the middle or lengthwise along one of the sides

-salt fill

-rinse aid always fill (your machine reminds you)

-Cascade complete, but I admit to using China/Chrystal since that's my daily dishes. Total time with heat 1: 46 minutes.

-always check that all water sprayers are not blocked by any dishes

Since I moved the silverware farther apart, they have come out totally clean.

I'm wondering if silver plated utensils can be used in the Miele 3rd rack with out damage?

Hope this helps. I truly have come to love this Miele DW.


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

i have the same DW and it works very well from day one. but reading this forum, there are plenty of post regarding how dishwashing soap matters in any of these "newer" machines.. not just in miele. Looks like a lot of people use Miele tabs here and have great results.. I myself have been using Finish Powerball tabs (from costco) and everything comes out clean..


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

I use the Miele tabs. Everything comes out clean. I put china, stemware, silver, and silver plate in it. I also wash most pots/pans in it.
I use every slot- just don't let each utensil touch each other.
Also, don't rinse your dishes. The sensors need to detect dirt.
Mine is la perla and close to 4 years old.
Never let silver and stainless touch in a DW


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

Hope these tips are helping you, OP.

And a side thanks to a2gemini for enlightening us on silver, silver plate, and stainless in the Miele-especially on the ingenious 3rd rack.


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

I don't think even Miele's price would encompass sensors that could detect food components, but I am willing to be enlightened, a2gemini, if you have a source.

I used to read in this forum that the enzymatic dishwashing products needed food so that the enzymes could reproduce and eat the food, but I don't think that was happening. The enzymes react with food as available, and if it isn't available, they don't have to react with it.

I have read here a lot of complaints about odor, sort of what one would expect from leaving dirty dishes in the dishwasher too long.

I have a Miele Optima, and so long as it has rinse aid, works fine with rinsed dishes. Normally I use half a Miele tab.

I think the point should be that it is not necessary to rinse them so long as there is the proper amount of soap to avoid too little or too much (makes too many suds) and they are washed before rot sets in. Someone here studied and reported on sudsing, and concluded for his conditions that half a tab was sufficient.

It is important that the water be soft enough and not too hot or etching will occur.

kas


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

looks like another drive by shooting from a bosch salesman.


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

Could be xedos, alto they sure driving a "Slow car"~~~~~They've been here since April!

Gary


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

Ha, I didn't pick up on that possibility. Lesson learned, thanks.


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

Do drive by perps have to drive slowly while shooting Gary ?

They come, do their business, and leave, meaning they don't stick around.

That was my point. Sorry you inferred something else.

Driving slowly leads to greater accuracy anyway.


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

Sparkling - the manual says Do not rinse dishes and when I asked - I was told the sensor check for water clarity and keeps on churning until the water is more clear.
It makes sense to me.
Dodge - never thought about a drive by….But I am a bit naive.


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

Give me a break. Someone criticizes Miele and the Garden Web immune system kicks in! I thought that only happened when someone criticized Bluestar :-)


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

a2gemini is correct. The Autosensor can measure the amount and size of food particles in the water flow that is directed through the sensor as water is fed to the upper spray arm. It can't identify the individual food components, of course.

Alex

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele Sensor Wash


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

Ok, thanks all, No Rinsing (I've only been removing firm, dry bits to date like cereal).


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

a2gemini is correct with regard to sensing. And thanks whirlpool_trainee, the video was enlightening. One observation that can be derived from this video is that the dishwasher compensates for turbidity by the length of time it spends washing. It seems to me that that fact alone supports allowing the dishes to have of any level of soiling because the dishwasher will compensate. What we would need to know to support the idea that the dishes need to be fully soiled would be some information that rinsed dishes come out less clean than initially dirtier dishes.

My Optima runs for about 2h 45m to wash rinsed dishes on 'normal' setting. I'll have to try a really dirty load sometime to see how long it will run to deal with the added soiling. Nonetheless, rinsed dishes come out clean, so perhaps there is a different issue involved that turbidity sensing is not a part of, such as an argument that the added water and power used by the dishwasher to deal with dirty dishes is less than the water and power used when dishes are pre-rinsed when the costs of the rinse water are included with the costs of the dishwasher operation. (This would obviously be very locality and rinse quality dependent.)

kas


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

Good post Kas, as usual.

Cleaning would be cycle selection dependent somewhat, yes? In my case (since water is so costly and has a Chesapeake Bay tax plus sewage tax add on over first 1000 gallons), I use express and crystal cycles predominantly with turbo dry. I re-cycle water in dishes in sink to remove dried on morning cereal first.

Honestly, the cost of water/sewage has significantly risen! Is there any other Miele cycle/technique we should try to cut down on water usage but still get clean dishes? I keep up with salt and rinse aid btw.


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

Clean or dirty dishes won't matter - the load will always come out as clean as the selected cycle can get them - e.g. Express won't clean extra heavy soil like Pots and Pans can. The SensorWash cycle can clean light to heavy soil. However, the load should be consistent. That is to say, if you have a lightly soiled load with one really dirty item (like a Pyrex dish), the sensor will read a low soil level and the Pyrex dish won't be cleaned. This is similar to a vented dryer when you load it with office shirts and one pair of jeans.

The sensor takes readings during the pre and main wash and during the rinses and adjusts wash time, temperature, water consumption and, depending on the which pump is fitted, wash pressure. However, not all cycles will use the sensor. I have recently emailed with a former GW member, Jerrod6, and he put one clean plate into his LaPerla, hit Normal, and the dishwasher washed it as if it was a full load. Browsing some manuals, though, it seems that the current Normal cycle uses the sensor, as the cycle overview for Normal includes several "as required" steps.


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

Thanks very much for such an in-depth review on "sensor wash". I had completely forgotten about this cycle until now, and have the Diamond Plus with 3rd rack. Everything on Crystal has always come out clean, even mainly on express.

But now I will try to use the "Sensor wash" on an evenly full load and hope less water will be used.

I love my Miele DW. So quiet, efficient and smart.


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

It's interesting that Miele does not seem to promote Sensor Wash in the US at all - instead, the sensing capabilities are hidden in the Normal cycle. Every model over here has the Automatic (European name for Sensor Wash) cycle right on top of all the other ones...

I use the auto cycle almost exclusively on my Bosch, sometimes with the Speed mode engaged to reduce the cycle time from 2:30 to 1:19 hrs.

No need to run a full load through Sensor Wash. Automatic load sensing will compensate. :)


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

Like most things , a balance is generally best.


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

Okay everyone, I'm back with an update. Many thanks for all of your posts.

The update, unfortunately, is that I am in the same position - or worse, depending on how you look at it.

Since my original post, I have run my new Dimension Plus daily, and have NOT ONCE gotten a fully clean load. There has always been something I've had to pull out and hand wash.

I called Miele. They sent out a repair tech three weeks who completed the report citing that 'no error codes were detected.' Well, there you go. No error codes detected must mean the dishwasher is working how it's supposed to be, EVEN THOUGH IT'S NOT CLEANING MY DISHES.

Sorry, I'll try not to yell, but the repair tech was completely useless, and Miele has since done nothing to address this issue.

So, here are the specs so far:

1) Fill levels - good
2) Water hardness - set appropriately (note: we have very hard water, but employ a total-house water softener)
3) Water temps - good
4) Have tried every cycle
5) Have tried Finish Quantum tabs, Jet Dry Rinse Aid, Miele Rinse Aid, no detergent at all, vinegar in the rinse cycle, nothing makes a bit of difference

Since using the Miele dishwasher:
1) All my stainless silverware has become discolored and tarnished (I own no silver, so this was not an issue as referenced by another posted)
2) All Pyrex glass food storage and Dulex french latte, water, and juice glasses are now cloudy, filmy, and coated with white residue

I am DEEPLY regretting relocating our perfectly good 800 series Bosch to a kitchen in our other home, which we don't use nearly as often. It cleaned everything perfectly, never etched or left a film, had short cycle times, and didn't become high-maintenance with PF detergents when they came out.

Things I like about the Miele are, well, nothing much at this point. I am ready to get rid of it, but am desperate for someone in this forum to give me something else to try. I want to love it!!!


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

Guess this wasn't a drive-by...


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

Somehow from what you've written, I've got the feeling that this is somehow related to your water hardness, your whole house softener and the settings on your Miele. This is just a gut feel based on all the things you've tried, not based on any particular knowledge on my part. One last thing you could try is to obtain some STPP from a chemical supply house and add it to the detergent; STPP are phosphates that were eliminated a few years ago in DW detergents. They're effective with hard water.


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

this might be a silly question but i did not read it your posts, did u add the recommended salt??
or maybe u don't need it b/c of the water softener??
not sure, just asking and trying to help...

i have a miiele and use finish power ball tabs and works great...

have u tried Lemi-shine?? its a rinse aid and heard it works great....

hope u get it resolved.....


 o
Let's take a different approach

weissman: "Somehow from what you've written, I've got the feeling that this is somehow related to your water hardness, your whole house softener and the settings on your Miele. This is just a gut feel based on all the things you've tried, not based on any particular knowledge on my part. One last thing you could try is to obtain some STPP from a chemical supply house and add it to the detergent; STPP are phosphates that were eliminated a few years ago in DW detergents. They're effective with hard water."

Weissman, I think your diagnosis is on the right track, but I think your prescription is on the wrong track.

The OP acgummad wrote: "All my silverware has become totally etched" ... and ... "2) All Pyrex glass food storage and Dulex french latte, water, and juice glasses are now cloudy, filmy, and coated with white residue ..." The most common cause of etching is too much phosphate.

acgummad also wrote : "Water hardness has been adjusted already within dishwasher settings." When I first started to reply to this thread, I missed the reference to the whole-house water softener. But acgummad did not indicate how water hardness was adjusted "within dishwasher settings." If the whole house water softener really does provide soft water to the dishwasher inlet, then one should not need any salt to adjust the water at all. (The "add salt" light will always be on, but one should ignore it.) There is a real possibility that the salt itself is the source of acgummad's etching.

On the basis of about a decade of experience with a Miele dishwasher, failure to get dishes clean (which we have experienced from time to time) always has resulted from one specific cause: the center rack (that is, the upper dish rack) had been set low (to allow loading of taller dishes in the upper rack), and then our largest dinner plates loaded in the bottom rack prevented the rotating arm on the underside of the upper rack from turning around when the dishwasher was in operation. (The Miele repair person would be working on an empty dishwasher, and therefore would not see the arm getting blocked by a tall plate.)

Simple solution: raise the position of the adjustable middle (upper dish) rack. Then the rotating arm has clearance to spin.

If adjusting the middle rack upward does not solve the problem, then we move on to other possibilities.

acgummad: Try Ecover brand powder dishwasher detergent (underdose it -- fill the detergent cmpartment only half way -- to begin with and if needed work up to greater doses) and Somat rinse aid. Miele repackages Somat rinse aid as Miele rinse aid, but you are likely to find a better price (though always limited availability) for the Somat branded version. We live in a very, very soft water area, and prior to our switch to Ecover, we were using supermarket brands of dishwsher detergent and had serious etching problems. (That was before the detergent manufacturers started to take phosphates out of detergents, however.) Ecover diswasher detergent has never etched anything in our Miele in spite of our soft water (the softer the water, the more likely etching will occur). If you cannot find Ecover locally, try here: http://www.vine.com/p/ecover-automatic-dishwashing-powder-48-oz-2-pack-216002

Here is a link that might be useful: Somat branded rinse aid

This post was edited by herring_maven on Thu, Jan 2, 14 at 10:36


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

Not discounting or commenting on what others have said. Dishwashers always seems to be a problem that have multiple solutions that each only work sometimes.

Films and etching are an indicator sometimes of using too much detergent. I found it difficult to tell the difference between them until I found something that didn't create the film.

You can try adding lemishine - its an add-in to improve detergent performance and lessen films sometimes seen with hard water. Has a couple of forms. Available at lots of grocery stores, at least where I live, and at amazon.

If you feel the need of an old school detergent, try the commercial version of cascade, available at most restaurant supply houses or bubble bandit available through amazon. Either one is safer than trying to mix one yourself - not that I'm afraid that you'll hurt yourself but you can make stuff strong enough to eat the glaze right off your dishes.

Old style detergents and new style detergents are based on different formulas with old-style relying on phosphates and new styles relying on bleaches. Personally, I wouldn't mix with new and old style dishwasher detergents, although the rinse aids should be fine. Be respectful of the quantities called for by the directions, they are smaller than you'd think.

Here is a link that might be useful: Lemishine


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

It's not mentioned here but one might consider that the water is too hot for the new enzyme detergents.

I went to a training a year or two ago where they were explaining how the enzymes work, the temperature they are most active and the temps where they start dying off.
The temperature range where the Enzymes are at their peak is between 120F to 130F after 130F they start getting killed by the higher temperature but that's where the beaching agents get activated and stronger as the temp increases.
I think the training material was provided by Finish.

I've actually started telling customer to not pre run the hot water at the sink if they own a d/w that heats the water like the Miele, Bosch, & Asko. This allows a little cooler water to enter the tub, and during the heating cycle, keeps the temperature in the Enzyme optimal range for a longer time.

It works! its counter to what we've been teaching for the last 50+ years but it works.


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

Hot or cold hookup?
Did the Miele tech de-program the onboard softener?
What's the hot water setting?
What's the softener hardness setting?
Where's the rinse aid set?
Have the spray arms been checked for blockages?

Have you spoken to tech support in Princeton? If it's etching with no soap then it's likely related to water temp somewhere along the line -- either fill, wash, rinse or hook up.

Tech support should be able to adjust/reprogram the machine so it does the job properly. I had similar issues in the beginning and the local tech basically each machine has it's own voodoo. So useful.

But the folks in Princeton helped with adjustments and now no issues. I tend to use 1/2 Method tabs these days.


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

rococogurl: "If it's etching with no soap then it's likely related to water temp somewhere along the line -- either fill, wash, rinse or hook up."

Etching is a chemical phenomenon. Water alone, no matter how hot, cannot, all by itself, cause etching.

bmorepanic: "You can try adding lemishine - its an add-in to improve detergent performance ..."

Lemishine makes the wash water more acidic. In the OP's situation, do we know if more acidity is a solution to the symptoms reported?

This post was edited by herring_maven on Fri, Jan 3, 14 at 0:22


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

Reading this, and feeling sorry for the OP. I have a new DW, not a Meile... A Kitchen Aid. Nice plan for washing dishes, but we have seriously hard water here. LemeShine works wonders with our KitchenAid. We've only had it 6 months, and LEMeShine wins my vote for slaying the monsters.


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

Etching: cut back on the soap. Fill the compartments only halfway.

I've had a Miele for ten years and love it. I spent the first three months tweaking it vis- a- vis local hardness of water, levels of soap, water temp., etc. I cursed it, but things finally meshed, and I've loved the machine ever since.


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

herring maven -- there is very often residual soap in the machine, quite a bit. I had etching until the softener and the machine were adjusted.

Softeners are great when you have water so hard it's destructive, as we do. But it's h*ll adjusting the soap.


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

Not sure if I have seen it mentioned here, but I have read that water that is too soft can also cause etching. So while it seems that most people are going toward to much or the wrong kind of soap or to hard of water maybe it is the opposite, maybe the water is too soft.

Here is one article, though not about water being to soft, but about softened water and some suggestions:

http://www.purewaterproducts.com/articles/glassware-wear-and-tear

Here is one that talks about the effects of water that is to soft:

http://housekeeping.about.com/od/dishes/f/cloudydishes.htm

Best of luck I hope you can get this figured out.

Phil


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

This is what Miele says about glass.

Glass with its many favorable properties (transparency, refraction, reflection, shine, water-imperviousness, taste- and odor-neutrality, chemical resistance) is a material frequently used in the home for equipment for food and drink preparation and consumption. From a chemical standpoint glass is a fusion of inorganic metal oxides. Glass is manufactured by smelting sand and various alkaline and earthalkaline compounds together at 2700 - 3200°F. Glass has no fixed defined crystalline structure, as physically it is a super-viscous liquid. Glass items of the most varying qualities are frequently washed together in the dishwasher so it is not surprising that varying levels of glass corrosion may become apparent at different times. Cheap glasses may show signs of corrosion after less than 100 wash cycles while others declared as dishwasher-proof have often survived for more than 1000 washes in laboratories without any evidence of material damage or loss of brightness or shine. Differences in the condition of individual glasses may not only vary between different manufacturers but also between glasses of the same series.

Glass types:

1. Soda lime glass / Sodium silicate glass: Simple everyday glass (general drinking glasses, bottles) manufactured from old glass, sand, soda/potash and calcium.

2. Borosilicate glass: More durable glass resistant to the effects of chemicals and sharp temperature changes (cooking and baking, and laboratory glassware).

3. Crystal glass: Colorless, highly pure glass (table glassware, gift items) with increased potassium content.

4. Lead crystal glass: Glass with a particularly brilliant appearance and high specific weight (cut glass, luxury items) with at least 24% lead oxide content.

Frequent washing changes the surface properties of glass even if it is chemically resistant. In addition to the contact with water, the frequent changes between wet and dry periods also play a role.

Usually it takes considerable time until signs of wear due to washing in a dishwasher appear. In particular scratches are everyday signs of wear and tear that sooner or later will appear on any glass washed regularly in a dishwasher. Glasses contact each other and other items in the dishwasher, particularly during loading and unloading. Water and detergent in conjunction with temperature jumps between hot wash cycles and cooler interim rinses, act to enlarge existing scratches and blemishes. Lime cloudiness that can be removed with sufficient detergent dispensing or the action of a low concentration acid without residues remaining is known as reversible cloudiness. Such cloudiness is also an indication that the water has too many hardening constituents such as magnesium and calcium ions. In addition to mechanical damage and reversible cloudiness, washing in a dishwasher can also cause irreversible evidence of corrosion. Corrosion damage ranges from various types of cloudiness to discoloration of various colors (from that resembling mother of pearl to bluish, greenish or brownish shimmering).

Corrosion - General information:

1. Soft water leaches glass more severely than hard water. This is because as the water has a low concentration of hardening metal ions, these can be more easily removed from the surface of the glass.
2. The higher the water temperature, the greater the corrosive effect.
3. The longer chemical, temperature, water and mechanical factors are allowed to act on glass unsuitable for dishwashing, the quicker corrosion will occur.

Types of irreversible corrosion:

1. Iridescence: The washing out of alkaline ions causes the refraction of light to change. The glass shimmers in bluish, greenish or brownish tones.

2. Cloudiness (partial and over entire area): During the manufacturing process occasional concentrations of alkaline ions occur. When these are leached out, the result is cloudiness. Cloudiness occurs mostly in areas where there is a change from thick to thinner glass, below the rim and in the area where the stem joins the bowl - sometimes, though, over the entire surface.

3. Cord lines: On some glasses these lines, which indicate a localized concentration of silicon ions, are visible from the start. In other cases these marks first become apparent with time after alkaline ions have been leached out.

Note

The following can help to minimize the risk of glass corrosion:
• Especially valuable glassware should be washed by hand. This also applies to glasses with gold rims or other decoration.
• When purchasing new glasses, make sure that they are dishwasher-proof. Usually there is an indication regarding their suitability for cleaning in a dishwasher.
• Set the water softener correctly to match the on-site water hardness.
• Follow the manufacturer's instructions regarding the amount of detergent to be used.
• Remove coarse food residues before placing items in the dishwasher as otherwise cleaning performance may be impaired.
• Glasses should be washed at low temperatures only (if possible with a special glassware program).

Note

Streaking in glass is not a sign of wear from cleaning in a dishwasher but rather indicates insufficient mixing of the melted glass during the production process. If the surface of the glass lacks homogeneity, line corrosion can result after frequent washing. The corrosion here appears as lines. The glass develops valleys and ridges due to differing tendencies to leaching


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

What a response. Throw a chemistry book at a consumer who just wants here glassware clean and sparkling after buying an expensive dishwasher that's should be solving problems not creating new ones.

The answer is to stop over-engineering dishwashers but then there's nothing "new" to sell.

At least the OP has the option of a buy-back if it's not possible to get the dw adjusted for the house. It happens rarely but it happens.


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

Rococo, you can read the full text if you search a little bit (that link, you know...) ;-)

I found another interesting bit of information from Miele:

"Note

Even with the lowest water hardness level (hardness range 1), the salt container must be filled with reactivation salt as otherwise white residues may be left on the load."

It doesn't why, however.


 o
RE: Help! I hate my new Miele!

Wasnt meaning you Alex, meaning them.

Meanwhile, my hardness level is 0 and the salt container has never been filled and they programmed to disable it. Now this is an older machine but it works just fine.

If "improvements" or "advances" in newer machines make them less adaptable then the problem lies with the machine, not the user IMHO.

For sure, Miele talks down to US consumers. No idea why or if we complain more than Brits or Aussies. But I can tell you based on the information on my washer available on the US site vs the UK or Australian and NZ, it is very, very different. Those have proper information whereas ours does not.

Explaining the composition of glass is fine. But a consumer just wants the dw to work properly once it's installed. Or get a clear path to adjustment. It's not good marketing/consumer relations for sure.

If the OP can't get it adjusted at least she can have them buy it back. The one very good aspect of this.


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Appliances Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here