I have done 2 kitchens. I was so pleased with my Bosch in the first one I never even looked at anything else, just got a Bosch for this one. Good luck.

I love my Miele DW. My mom has one too. Never a problem, and they function beautifully. Yes, they are more expensive, but then you'll not have to worry about them. If you buy a Miele towards their bottom of the line, the price isn't SO bad. And a Miele bottom-of-the-line would be a top-of-the-line of another manufacturer. I saved a lot of money by buying a Miele that does not have the hidden controls or the dozens of of wash functions. Mine is one of their simpler models, and I couldn't be happier with it.

Also, if you use a Miele Certified Installer, Miele will double the warranty. Some people don't think it's worth it, since the Miele certified installer could cost $150-200 for the installation, but again, I think it's worth it for the peace of mind. I think 50% of problems with DW's is in the installation.

Wow: bad luck! I'll chime in: to date we've owned three Bosch dishwashers (not serially, in three different locations), oldest of which was 10 years old. Quiet, great cleaning, sturdy--have had no service calls other than the one time I accidentally spilled juice down the vent into the circuit board.I think the issues you mentioned (smell and "poor drying") are intrinsic to any DW that does not use a food grinder and uses passive drying. That includes most high end European models. I am delighted to have to clean out the filter once every few weeks not to have the noise of a grinder. I am also very comfortable with the passive drying. Yes, the tupperware is not dry when cycle is done, but everything else is, and I don't worry about melting a plastic cup if it's accidentally put on the bottom rack, and I don't spend money on the electricity to run the heating element.

FWIW, as good an experience as we had with the Bosch's, we are now a month into our new kitchen reno with two Miele Excellas. They are gorgeous, fully integrated, even quieter than the Bosch, with an unbelievable number of bells and whistles (my much-touted Cheese cycle, for example). The build quality appears fabulous and I hope I have an experience similar to others on GW.

I have had many problems with Kitchenaids other than the very first one I owned--which was aged before I even owned it. I avoid Kitchenaid. I love my 2 Bosch Integras. They are almost 3 years old and I have had no problems.

Wow what a run of bad luck.

I'm another delighted Bosch Integra owner. 3.5 years and still very happy with it.

Re smell: I've heard them ascribed to the European brands - Bosch and Miele for instance, but based on my experience, I think it is a consequence of installation mishaps.

For instance, we bought our Bosch about 2 months before our remodel and had it installed. It worked very well, odourlessly. Then, uninstalled, demo, rebuild, etc. plumbing touched up etc. and the DW reinstalled. Noticed a faint smell that built up and built up until it was quite umm, malodorous. But then we also noticed that the sink was slow to drain until it seemed to have just about completely backed up. Called OUR (not the GC's) plumber out and he snaked the drain and mentioned that it is always a good idea to completely snake the plumbing line after a remodel since somehow stuff just seems to get into them during construction.

Well, since that day, the DW has never smelled. And our sink hasn't backed up either.

Moral of the story: I just don't believe it is the DW. I mean to say - what organic material is there in a DW which can decay to cause the malodour????! It has to be something in the pipes downstream and something about the installation is objectionable.

Hiya! Kitchdet! Long time no see since we lost our customary hangout.

"What I'd like to know is other people's opinion on what has happened, and if anyone has any suggestions?"

Fauguy, not to be flip, glib or make a rude comment, but it really sounds like the bottom-line is:

you got a bum job from whomever installed your machine!

To charlyinfl....the installer might of messed it up from the begining, since it was only a few days later that I noticed the mounting screw was scraping the plastic planel. But then its been pulled out and replaced twice by an authorized Electrolux center (called Masco). You would think that they know what they're doing...but I guess not.

To everyone else....thanks for the input. I've heard about Miele, but Lowes doesn't sell that brand. If they issued me an in-store credit, I'd have to use it for a brand and model they can order.

The noise during fill on the GE has nothing to do with a "water intake pump" as there is no such component -- not in terms of a motor-driven pump that forces the water from the household supply into the machine. There is of course a pump that sprays water on the dishes, but that doesn't happen until AFTER the machine has filled. Filling the dishwasher is simply by way of household water pressure, through a valve that opens to allow water to flow in or closes to stop the flow. Very similar to turning a faucet on and off. Changes in household water pressure, mineral build-up over time due to hard water (although 3 months would be pretty quick), and other such environmental characteristics are more likely to be the cause than a fault of the dishwasher itself. The rack rollers of course are a problem.

The scratching screw on the replacement Electrolux is an installation issue. Whoever did the install should have checked for such glitches. It's not the fault of the dishwasher's design or Electrolux as a manufacturer. The GE dishwasher in the house I bought 3.5 years ago had the same situation. The top right edge of the door was scratched from a protruding anchor screw. I certainly had no thoughts of blaming GE. I can't comment on the squeaking hinge without examination of it ... but any time there are cables/rollers/springs involved in controlling the weight of a door like that, some "springy/squeaky" noise may occur. I've run across dryer and oven doors that have squeaked for years with no ill effect other than perhaps the irritation of the sound. The contact points of the springs should be lubricated to minimize friction, but they'll eventually break after years of use, that's a common "old age" failure. Other than a sudden increase in door weight due to lack counterbalance springs, broken springs don't affect the machine's functionality.

To dadoes....The GE unit was installed in November 2006. By January, whenever it would fill with water, you could hear a high-pitch "whistle" sound. Also, the rollers in the top rack would not move easily, and you had to push really hard to move to top rack. GE repair came in January, repalced a part (he said water pump) that the water intake connected to, and the upper rack/rollers. Everything was fine for about a month, and then it started again. So in the 1st year, GE repair was out a total of 3 times. Each time they replaced the same parts, but the problem would come back.

When the Electrolux was installed (and for 3 months of use) it ever made a loud whistle when filling with water, like the GE did. So that's why I think it was a problem with the GE parts.

We have granite countertops, but have piece of wood under the lip that the GE unit was achored to. The guy that installed the Electrolux said the wood was back too far, so he had to use the side-mounting kit and achor it to the sides of the cabinet. The screw is a flat head, and barely sticks out. (Maybe I should take a picture so you can see). But after a few days, I noticed it was scratching the top plastic panel. Its been replaced twice now by a local repair center (contracted through Electrolux) but it keeps getting scratched. The hinge was fine until the end of Sept, but then started making a loud metalic sound when th door would close. They came last week and put new wheels and metal rope, but when they replaced the panel again this week, now the hinge is makeing an even louder sound. (It almost sounds like someone playing the saw with bow).

I'm contacting Electrolux on Monday to see if another repair company can come out and fix the issues, as I don't have any confidence in Masco after 4 times. If Electrolux says that Masco is their only authorized repair company in my area, then I'm going back to Lowes, inform them of the problems, and see what can be done.

I called Electrolux today and went over the issues with them.
They were able to find a different repair company in my area to come out later this week.
I was told that if the new repair company is unable to resolve the issues, that Electrolux would have this unit replaced with the same model as its under the 1 year warranty. But if I decided I wanted a different brand, I'd have to speak with Lowes about issuing a credit for something else.

Hi fauguy, just to add my experiences on Bosch dishwashers.
I have had three Bosch dishwashers, the first two in a larger home side by side, been doing a great job and trouble free for seven years. Now in a smaller home and with one Bosch dishwasher , this one three years old and trouble free. Yes they have an odd smell as they break in , usually lasting a few weeks. I have never , never found anything in the filters to rinse or clean out. I have cooked for twenty people dinners with different people loading the dishwashers and never anything in the filters.
Everything is clean if loaded so it can get sprayed properly and plastic is dry especially if doesn't trap water. I would talk to Lowe's and get a Bosch. Sorry about your troubles but if Electrolux is a Fridigaire I had trouble with a brand called Euroflair by Fridigaire which was the last time Fridigaire brought a so called high end line over from Europe. Good luck David.

Thanks David.

At this point I'm waiting for the new repair company to come out on Thursday to see if they can fix the issues. I'm tired of the problems and need something that is reliable. If they can't fix it (or if they do fix it and the problems return), I'm going back to Lowes and see about changing it out for a Bosch (as its the only other high-end brand they sell).

Ditto the Bosch fans.

I called my appliance repairman yesterday because I need a new oven and wanted his expert advice. After-all HE would be the one to know what's crap and what's not.
He told me, "Sorry to tell you but there are no good appliances made in the U.S. They are all meant to last about 5 years and that's it.
I have been in this business for years and the parts are getting cheaper as the years go by. You wouldn't believe how bad some are,...the parts they use are like the toys in a Cracker Jack box. "Cut costs and compete" is their motto. "Let's make them die sooner so they will have to buy new ones" is their motto. Your Moms washing machine , dishwasher, range, or oven that used to last 20 years no longer exists", he says.
"They are for the most part all the same and some are worse than others. LG being at the bottom. The problem with buying foreign products is that sometimes the number of certified techs are limited and it's hard to get parts, so if you go with "Foreign" and you are ok with that, do your homework and pick the one with the least complaints". ALWAYs with American made buy the longest service plan offered". So there you have advice from someone who has been in business for years and has seen first hand what is going on.
I had a Maytag $600.00 that lasted 4 years. I felt CHEATED!! lol
I did my homework and bought a Miele Diamante' for around $1175 a few years back. My husband thought I was nuts back then but now he says it was "one of the wisest purchases we have made". Seemed like a lot but worth every single penny.
It is THE BEST dishwasher I have ever owned, and I expect it to be here working just fine 10 years from now. A MUST IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE WRITING COMPLAINTS ABOUT DRAINAGE: It requires special installation by a certified Miele tech. I have heard that usually the problems reported are due to bad and improper installation. YOU WILL LOVE THE FLATWARE RACK ON THE TOP!! Good luck!! I am also going with the Miele oven, and love my Miele vac. Miele is a "family owned" company with high values and consumer satisfaction.

I had a GE d/w which was nothing but junk, to be honest. I had to handwash my dishes before putting them in the d/w, which of course negated the value of having a d/w.

After that fiasco, I did a lot of research. I finally settled on a Whirlpool tall-tub d/w which has a stainless-steel interior with graduated racks on top and a more convenient flatware holder than I'd ever seen before. It holds my biggest soup pots and Dutch ovens.

But the best thing about it is that it cleans so well, with six 'super-jets'. I can load anything - greasy frying pans, casserole dishes with baked-on food - and they come clean every time! Another biggie is that it's so quiet. There is an open archway between our kitchen and den, and we have to go into the kitchen from the den to see if it's finished or not.

I realize this is not a 'top' name brand, but we got our money's worth plus more. HTH

I've had this d/w more than 5 years, and it's as good as ever.

I was out this evening and passed by a Lowes (not the one we got the Electrolux from). I decided to make a quick stop and look at their dishwashers. They didn't have the Electrolux Wave Touch, but had the older IQ Touch on display. When I opened and closed the door, I got the same metallic spring sound that I've been experiencing on my Wave Touch the past few weeks. This was not a good sign. I opened and closed every DW on the floor, and the Electrolux was the only one that made any sounds. They only have 3 Bosch on display. The most expensive one was $850, so I knew it wasn't their highest-end model. It look like there wasn't as much room inside it as the Electrolux. Also, the two silverware baskets seemed a bit flimsy and out-of-place, since you can move them anyway in the bottom tray. There wasn't any other DW on display that I cared for.

I'll see what the repair guy says tomorrow about my Electrolux. Hopefully it can just be fixed or replaced. Otherwise I have to go with another brand. I asked the sales rep about Miele, and they don't sell them.

I would suggest if you are still experiencing problems and want to make a change that you strongly consider Miele. A miele will cost a bit more up-front, but it eprforms great and has an excellent reputation. Good luck

UPDATE.....

The other repair company came out today, and this guy knew a lot more than the previous repair company (Masco) that's been out 4 times.
He said that the problem with the top panel being scratched can't be helped because of where the screw is on the side mounting bracket. He tried several different ways and was not able to resolve that issue. He also said that the sound from the hinges are actually the metal springs rubbing the side of the wood cabinet. The springs are wide and stick out further than they should.He's going to contact Electrolux and see if there are smaller springs that can be used.

He also said that with a KitchenAid, the side mounting is done inside the unit. There's a plastic cap on the side that you remove, put the screw and bracket through, and then put the plastic cap back. That would eliminate a screw on the upper side that might scratch the door. But he did say that KitchenAid units aren't as reliable as Bosch, but he's not sure what the side mount looks like and if it would have the same problems as I'm experiencing on the Electrolux.

Tonight I went out to a different store and looked at the KitchenAids. They had the models KUDS, KUDT, KUDM, and KUDE. The KUDE no longer has the hard food disposal on the bottom and uses a catch basket like the Bosch. The KUDM and KUDT do have the disposal, with the KUDM adding a steam option. The sales man said the best selling is the KUDS, as it has most of the features of the KUDT except for the 3rd rack on the top. We looked at all of them, and could see how the internal side mounting would work. I'm not a fan of KitchenAid however, as I had a brand new garbage disposal go bad after 18 months (the internal seal started to leak water and the motor went out). It took me two month calling KitchenAid and their repair company before it got change out, even though it was covered by the 3 year warranty.
I'd rather go with the Bosch instead of KitchenAid, but I don't want to have the same issues with the side mount screws like I am with the Electrolux.

I was looking at the Miele site tonight and the install diagram shows 4 side mounting screws (2 on each side), similar to the KitchenAid. There is a Miele Design showroom north of me in Boca Raton, so I might stop and take a look at the different models. But if I decide to replace my Electrolux with a Miele, I'd have to get a full refund from Lowes (not an in-store credit) since they don't sell this brand.

what would you recommend in the $1300-1500 (max) price range?

I just want to say that isn't it amazing that you have to consider spending this amount on a DW to get it to work right???

The repair man that was here yesterday called me back this morning. He spoke with Electrolux service and they advised rubbing a bar of soap on the spring coils to lubricate them so they do not rub the wood cabinet and make noise. But that still does not resolve the issue with the side mounting screws scraping the top panel. He personally feels that a KitchnAid will work better in my space. First off, the side mounting is done inside the dishwasher, so there is nothing to scratch the door when opening and closing it. Second, the springs are not as wide and shouldn't rub agents the side cabinets. Based on those two reasons, he believes it to be a better choice than what I have.

I'm still planning on checking out the Miele sometime this week and see how the mounting is done on it and what size the springs are. I just find it ridicules that you spend $1300 for a DW, and Electrolux advises rubbing a soap bar on the springs, but you still have to deal with the panel getting scratched. If the Miele looks like it will work, and Lowes is willing to give a full refund, then I might go with it. Otherwise, if the Miele looks like it has the same springs and side mounting as the Electrolux, then I'm stuck getting a KitchenAid.

My sister is very pleased with her Kitchenaid DW; it's the "S" series, which I think is important. From what I understand, the "S" series, while not KA's most expensive DW, is their best one. I think my sister paid $800-$900 for it.

I have a Kitchenaid DW, slide in range, micro and have never had a problem. DW is 6 years old and cleans perfectly. This dishwasher replaced a 16 yr old GE which never needed repair either.

I went to the Home Depot EXPO store as they have a few Miele units on display.
We looked at the units and didn't care for the 3rd top cutlery tray.
When loading the dishwasher, it's easier to use a basket on the lower tray at the same time as loading dishes. If you have the separate 3rd tray, you have to keep pulling it in and out to load with silverware.
Unfortunately, most units come with the 3rd tray.
That leaves us with the Inspira G2120 ($1099), Inspira G2180SF ($1479), and Advanta G2170SF ($1399).
Going from the G2120 to G2180SF is $400 and the only difference is the hidden controls, Clean Air Drying system, and Acoustic Function Monitor.
The G2170SF doesn't have the Clean Air Drying and costs $80 less than the G2180SF.
We like having the controls hidden (SF models), but $400 is a pretty big price jump.
Does the Clean Air Drying system make a big difference? The brochure explains what it is, but makes no mention of the "Acoustic Function Monitor".

The sales rep said the installation charge is $129 and will have a 2 year manufacture warranty instead of the standard 1 year.
They also have a 4 year extended warranty for $99 that would start after the 2 year manufacture warranty.
But he said the 4 year extended is done through GE service. I told him that the Miele site lists a 5 year extended warranty for $249, but he was not aware of it.

This week I plan on stopping at the Miele showcase location in Boca. The sales rep from Expo said all the unit are on display there and are fully functional.

The clean Air drying system was important to me because I had something very similar to it on my previous Miele. The system uses a fan to enhance the drying process. The machines without it rely entirely on convection drying. So the short answer is that you will get better drying performance.

The 3rd rack. It takes about a week to get use to but after that most people would not be without it. I don't pull it in and out all the time to load the silverware. I load the silverware as the last step of the process so I pull it out and push it in one time. No different than pulling the middle rack out to load it. You can also remove the basket and carry it to the sink or table or where ever you want so that you can load it. Having the silverware in it's own rack allows for more space in the baskets below and prevents items from nesting together.

For service I would deal with Miele direct and not bother with GE or any other service organization unless you have to. Miele service reps have laptop computers that can be connected to your DW so they can be diagnosed without having to remove them. The laptops also contain all the parts inventories, and service bulletins so everything is there with the repair person while on site. As for service I had my first machine for 10 years without any service call. I replaced it because of a kitchen redo. I've had my current model(G2830) since 2006 without any problem. Situations vary so I am not saying you will never have a problem, but my machines have had a good track record.

I have attached a link to another thread that gives summary information regarding the DW line. Also do a search in the forum for other posts regarding Miele DW.

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele comparison thread

Fauguy - the cutlery tray is the best part of the Miele! Once you have it, you'll never want to go back to the old cutlery basket style, believe me! No more knife points sticking up, all the cutlery is fully totally exposed to the water and spray, the cutlery isn't touching each other (which sometimes causes either scratching or discoloration, or food not washing off), and it's so easy to unload the cutlery when it's on the tray. Also, having the third level adds capacity to the other two trays which otherwise would have been taken up with the cutlery basket. Don't write off the cutlery tray cause it's unfamiliar.

No disrespect intended at all, but I didn't quite get your criticism of the cutlery tray that "you have to keep pulling it in and out to load the silverware". If you have the cutlery basket in other DW's, don't you have to pull out the lower tray also to load the basket? Don't you have to pull out any DW tray to load and unload plates and dishes?

BTW, a couple of the Kitchenaid models also have a cutlery tray, including the "S" model I mentioned in my earlier post. It's one of the reasons my sister chose the KA "S" model.

Thanks for the additional information.
The reason my mom said she didn't like the cutlery rack was because its too much of a hassle having to open and close it to load with silverware and knives. She thinks its just easier using a basket, since that's what all our previous dishwasher have had. The other reason is because she's worried that some of our tall glasses (plastic cups) might hit the 3rd rack.
I haven't ruled it out completely, and will probably take some dishes and glasses to the Miele showroom when we go this week. That way we can check the loading and the space.

The KitchenAid S (KUDS03FTSS) does not have the cutlery rack on the top, just the lower basket (we looked at them in two stores).
The only ones that have it are the T, M, U, and E.

Fauguy, I may have gotten my sister's KA DW models numbers mixed up. Perhaps she was considering the "S" series, but instead opted for the KA that had the cutlery tray which number I don't recall (maybe "T"?). In any case, she likes her KA. I do know that she got the model that has the cutlery tray, and also just has the countdown display on the front. She definitely wanted hidden controls, and didn't want full display on the front, but finds it useful to be able to see just the countdown on the front. HTH.

I still love my Miele.

So I made it to the Miele Showcase store in Boca Raton FL this past week.
The man working there started off by showing us the Inspira (G2120) and then the Optima (G2430SC, G2470SCSF).
Between those two models, we preferred the bottom rack on the Optima.
I asked him about the Diamante (G2150SC), but he said that it's been discontinued and taken out of display. (EXPO did have one on display there).
He said that new models were coming out mid-Dec, including the Diamante, Optima, and Excella. The only new feature that he's aware of is the auto-closing door.
I asked him what type of price increase it would be, but he didn't have the details.
But since the Diamante has been discontinued, he's not sure if EXPO could order it from the warehouse.
He checked his price sheet, next to the prices I got from EXPO, and said they were all below his MSRP.
The two Inspiras would be $1179 (G2120SC) and $1549 (G2180SCSF), Diamante $1350 (G2150SC), and the Optimas from $1750-1950.
The Optima's are just too much, since we want to stay around the same price as the Electrolux ($1300) that we're going to replace.
I think the Diamante would be the best match, since some of the Optima's features we don't need (like the water softener.)

The only "live" units there were the Optima and above.
He put the Optima in a Wash-and-Hold cycle so we could hear it. It was quite while filling with water, then was very loud (sounded like the engine was turning on and off doing water-pressure squirts), and then sounded quite with it just spraying the water like normal.
I asked him about the difference between Q1, Q2, and Q3 (since the Optima is Q3), and why they don't rate them in db when all the other manufactures do.
He said that Miele doesn't believe in db (which doesn't make sense to me) so they use their own Q rating. He said that most people don't know the difference between 50db and 45db, so it doesn't mean much.
I told him that our current Electrolux is rated at 47db and is very quiet, yet some Bosch units go down to 42db.
Since they didn't have the Inspina as a "live" unit, I wasn't able to try it out and hear the difference between it being a Q1 and Optima Q3.
With the Diamante being a Q2, it wouldn't be as quite as the Optima.

We then talked about the installation and the warranty. I said the EXPO would charge $129 for delivery and installation, which will give it a 2-year manufacture warranty. Then EXPO's 4 year extended warranty is $99, but uses GE Service. He said that it would be my decision to either buy the $99 warranty from EXPO, or the 5 year $250 warranty directly from Miele. He said that only a repair tech that is trained by Miele can work on their appliances, so the GE tech would have to be Miele trained as well. For $150 and 1 year difference, I'm not sure which would be the better option there.

So at this point I'm going to contact EXPO and have them check if the Diamante can be ordered since its discontinued.
I also have to go back to Lowes and see about them taking the Electrolux unit back and issuing me a full refund.
If they refuse and say it had to be a store credit, then I'm stuck going with the KitchenAid.

fauguy, I've had my Miele dishwasher for 5 years now and at first I didn't like the cutlery tray because I found it inconvenient to load every piece of silverware separately, but after one week, I got used to it and now I can't go back.
We have a summer house and the DW there has the normal bottom rack cutlery trays and every time I use the DW there, I wish I had the Miele.

Believe me, it's the best feature ever. You'll appreciate it when you unload your DW.

My thoughts:

I've had the G2830(Laperla) since 2006, and before that a G885 for 10 years. Miele does believe in db ratings and uses them in most countries. They stopped using them for the USA in 2006 probably because up until then most DW sold in NA(North America) did not have DB ratings and most people were unaware of them. So in NA they started using Q ratings.

I went to Miele sites in Great Britain and Australia and , located the model comparable to ours and found db ratings.

Here is what I remember:

Q1 is 50
Q2 is 48
Q3 is 46
Q4 is 44
Q5 is 42

I would check the Miele web site or call them directly to find out what they charge for extended warranty. I did not think it used to cost $250. I thought it was more like $199 to extend the warranty an additional 5 years and it covered parts and labor. I would only call Miele if they have a problem and I would let them send someone out. If you use Miele service people they are equipped with laptops that connect to the machine to do diagnostics. Having another company trained to do service does not mean that they will have the same equipment and experience, since Miele technical employed by Miele only work on Miele appliances.

In North America the fill technique is different than in other countries because we generally have hot water connections. The machine will draw a bit of water, then spray it 4 or 5 times for 6 seconds, then pause, then resume. This is to reduce dish/glass stress,breakage and cracking from extreme temperature changes.

Where the machines demoed empty or loaded with dishes?

On the off chance you have water quality that requires softening of the supply to the dishwasher, I would not recommend Miele. Miele seems to perform well in other circumstances but etches glassware in soft water situations. (Yup - I've tried everything recommended by people here for the last three years as well as everything recommended by Miele - who concluded my water was "too soft". Same water caused no problems with previous dishwsher over a period of ten years).

Jerrod6,
Thanks for the db and Q number equivalence.
The Miele site says the MieleCare In Depth price for dishwashers is $249, as of March 2008.

http://www.miele.com/miele_care/miele_care_indepth.asp?nav=400&snav=490&tnav=492&oT=230&benefit=88&page=2

Does the Miele dishwasher connect to the hot or cold water outlet? I thought all brands connected to the hot.
I wasn't aware of the spray pulse, and the guy there didn't mention it.
Does it do this for every cycle, such as normal? It sounded a bit loud on the Optima.
There was only 3 dishes in the live unit. (I know most dishwashers sound quieter with a large load).

Here is a link that might be useful: MieleCare Prices

The previous and this current model series will connect to the cold water line because this is common in Europe. The machine will use it's heater to heat the water so there is no requirement that your incoming water be 120F. I don't know how the upcoming models will be configured to work in NA.

The current models can clean in water lower than 120F. There is another thread named "New Miele Dw what detergent" or something like that. In that thread I tried using 1/2 tab of detergent in the economy and china crystal cycles. I think these used a temp of 118F and 111F and still were able to clean a normal load of dishes.

If you connect to hot water the cycle will be shorter because you are supplying preheated water. My unit is connected to hot but because I have a very long run from the water heater and the pipes are moving through an unheated basement the water temp to the DW is cool.

I have the G2830 and it does a spray and pause at the beginning of each fill for all cycles. I have never heard other models in this current line so I don't know if they do this. My previous model, purchased in 1996, did not fill this way. On my current model the water will start to run in, after 20 seconds the spray arm makes two or three passes across the dishes...this lasts for 5 seconds then there is a pause, and If I am standing in front of the machine I can hear something during this 5 seconds. If I am not in front of it I don't notice it. The water continues to run in during this pause,then the spray will resume and the water shuts off. Most fills are about 30 seconds. Not much of any sound after that.

I have the model with the screen interface and menus and in the service menu the region the machine is being used in can be changed. I did that just to try it, I changed it to Great Britain. One of the things that changed was this fill behavior. It only filled using the pause method one time and that was between the main wash and the first rinse. Because EU has cold water fills, you don't want cold water hitting dishes that are hot because they may crack, so at this point between the wash and the rinse it filled the way mine normally does. Even though I have a hot water connection the water entering the DW is cool, so I prefer this method of filling and it is the method configured for the USA. There may be other differences too.

I don't have the Optima and have never heard the Diamante so perhaps they do not fill using this technique.

Sound also depends on factors in your home.....type of flooring, ceiling height, curtains, installation of machine...all of these things.

I don't have the Optima but I think others here on the board have them and have not reported them to be noisy.

You are correct in that the sound decreases with a load of dishes. You do not want it completely silent because you will never hear if dishes are knocking together during the run.

I purchased my extended warranty a few years ago so prices have increased.

I experienced the Miele service tech because I called them to look at the pedestal on my washer. While the guy was here he checked out the DW using the laptop connection and examined the function of the internals, pumps, valves, electronics...... The diagnostics were on the laptop and the information displayed on the screen while the machine was running. If I need service I prefer this method to having the machine completely removed to examine something.

My mother-in-law and sister-in-law watched me load our Miele after dinner tonight. When I pulled out the cutlery tray, they remarked in unison "that's great". They couldn't believe how much room there was to spare after plates, glasses, and silverware for eight had been loaded (and the dishwasher wasn't empty when we began loading).

About twenty minutes later my sister-in-law asked me why I hadn't started the dishwasher. She had no idea it had been running the entire time. I should note that our Miele is at the end of a peninsula, so it has less sound shielding available than in just about any other location.

Chalk me up as another Miele fan. Now if I could just get rid of the kids' plastic cups and their water-catching bottoms...

Jerrod6,
Our hot water tank is on the same ground floor as the kitchen, and only takes about 30 seconds for hot water to go from the tank to the sink and dishwasher.
Under the sink cabinet there are 4 outlets: 2 cold (faucet and refrigerator) and 2 hot (faucet and dishwasher).
Would having the Miele connected to the hot water damage it or adversely effect its cleaning? I'm not sure how they could connect it to a cold water line since both are being used.

For detergent, I've used the Cascade 2-in-1 Action Packs. They are the powder with blue Dawn liquid. I've used these for over 2 years with great results on the Electrolux and previous GE Profile. I did try the newer Cascade Complete Packs last month, with blue and green liquid, and didn't notice a difference, except they cost a lot more (48 for $14). Hopefully I could continue using the 2-in-1 packs with the Miele, as BJs sells 110/count box for $11.

The original builder's GE unit was made in 1986 and was so loud we never ran it in the 12 years we lived here. Then 2 years ago we had a GE Profile PDW7300 installed with the new kitchen. It was much quieter, but made alot of noise when filling with water (see top of thread). Due to the problems with it, Lowes took it back and we got the Electrolux. I can hardly hear it running, as its rated at 47db. I'd keep it, but due to its problems, it has to be replaced as well.

Chipshot,
Which model of Miele do you own?

Why buy an extended warranty? Just pay it with AMEX and it doubles the manufacturer's warranty. I've never needed to have a service call in a little over 5 years.

We have an Excella. Honestly, it's probably overkill for us as I doubt we'll ever use all its special cycles.

Chipshot,
I agree that the Excella has more cycles than we'd ever use, but I do like the idea of an Auto cycle, as the Electrolux has it as well. If we went with the Diamante or Optima, the Normal cycle would be used 95% of the time.

Cbreeze,
I don't use AMEX, but that is a good idea for those who do.

Since the unit would have a 2 year manufacture warranty, buying the 4 year $99 extended from EXPO would give it a total of 6 years....or buy the 5 year warranty fom Miele for $250 and it would be covered for a total of 7 years.

Connected to hot water won't adversely affect anything. The hotter the water it receives, the faster it will complete the cycle. The advantage you get from connecting to cold water is found when you use the china cycle because that will let the DW use the cool water intended for that cycle, or when you use other cycles that are intended to be cool to save energy and protect dishes. The pots and pans cycle uses water about 170F so the hotter your give it the less time it will take to heat and the faster it will work.

Last year I tested several DW detergents. It was a detergent test not a DW test. Most brands work and in fact I still have many many different detergents, so I alternate each week through: Cascade Compete Powder, Electra Sol red ball tabs with get dry action, Cascade Complete Gel, Miele tabs, Electra Sol 3n1 tabs with Jet dry, Cascade action paks with the power of dawn, Cascade action paks with bleach..and all of these work very well.

Chipshot. I have the LaPerla..same cycles as Excella and have tried most of the cycles. The ones I use frequently are:

Sensor Wash - good for normal or heavy soil

Economy - a sensor wash with lower temps,less water changes and shorter time. Good for normal soil

Water saver - less water changes but higher water temp and less time than Economy Good for normal and heavier soil

Cheese - good for baked on cheese casseroles and dishes
starch - good for pasta, and rice

Heavy soil: I use this once in a while just to use it. It gives a good hot wash.

Short: I think 35 minutes? - good for a quickie small load.

I need to try the large items cycles. So far I haven't needed to remove the middle rack and wash only in the bottom but I should at least give it a try.

I don't think the Energy saver cycle will work for me because there is no water heating at all in this cycle and the water must be at least 115F for the DW to accept it. My water even with hot connection sometimes comes in lower than this especially in winter.

Cbreeze: I had my previous model for 10 years without a service call. I replaced it when the kitchen was redone with a different scheme. I am hoping to get that amount of service or more out of this machine..but I know results will vary.

We primarly use the sensor cycle. I've also tried cheese and normal. Every time the result is the same: clean dishes, glasses, and flatware.

I've always wondered if extra cycle choices are really needed.
I can understand Normal, Heavy soil, Pots Pans, China, and Economy.
But the Excella LaPerla has almost a dozen more.
Most times, it is a mixed load, of dishes, glasses, and cookware used from breakfast through dinner.
I doubt many people use the Cheese cycle with items that only have cheese on them.
I bet the Normal cycles would work just as well as the specialty cycles.

I do wish they all had the Sensor cycle, as I do like using it on the Elexrolux. Yet it acts about the same as the Normal cycle.

I only use the Cheese cycle when I have burned on stuck on cheese. Of course there may be other types of items in the load but many of them will be covered with cheese or burned on cheese. This cycle is different than the rest because it starts with a very hot prewash(it will heat the water) which lasts about 25 minutes. This is enough to knock most stuff off but it will follow this with a long hot wash. The result is that cheese and anything burned on(I use a glass casserole) is completely clean. I think the wash temp is around 170F.

I think the differences in cycles on the Laperla and Excella are in the amount of time, water, and heat being used and like the Optima these models sense the amount of soil and adjust the water temperature to it. These two models don't wash the same way as the rest of the models because they only fill with enough water to wash in 1/2 of the machine at a time. They alternate the spray arms, so less water is taken for each fill. This probably has some impact but perhaps only in that they use less water per fill although they do adjust the amount of water to the load size.

The sensor cycles on my model are a little different than the cycle called "normal"

Normal on mine has 2 prewashes( I guess you can have a short wash followed by a rinse), then a main wash,2 rinses and dry. It seems to use a set time for each part of the cycle but will adjust a bit depending on incoming water temperature. The highest wash temperature it uses is about 130F, and the last rinse seems to take almost 30 minutes.

The rest of the cycles on the machine have 1 fill before the wash, and the sensor cycles will modify the parts of the program depending on the soil level, skipping or adding water changes, reducing or increasing the length of the wash or rinses. I usually get a last rinse of 22 minutes using the sensor cycle, 15 minutes, using economy, 18 minutes using water saver, and the wash times get varied also. The shortest wash I have seen using the sensor cycle was 24 minutes... longest was 1 hour 19 minutes. the cycle gets modified as the DW progresses through each phase so you never know what is going to happen or when.

I don't think Miele would make a DW that didn't clean well and I think the normal cycles are intended to be universal so they should provide very good results.

Fauguy, in case you end up with a KA....

We have the KA KUDS03STSS (Fully Integrated with Display Console/S Series Dishwasher/4 Cycles/6 Cycle Options/Architect® Series II)

While this DW is very quiet (unless it's dead quiet in the house, I have to get very close to it to hear it running), its cleaning is less than stellar...all loads have to be run on "Heavy Duty" to get clean dishes. I don't know if this has to do with water temperature or anything else, but whenever we use the "Normal" or "Sensor" cycles we inevitably end up with a few dirty dishes & sometimes dirty flatware.

My DH refused to spend the $$$ for a Miele, so this was our next choice. We also had problems w/GE DWs many years ago and will never buy another. We had a Maytag that was 7 or 8 years old that did a great job but it wasn't very quiet. (We gave it away in January and, as far as I know, it's still going strong.)

Thanks again for the valued information.

I spoke with the EXPO store and the Miele Showroom today about the Diamante.
It turns out the rep from last Friday was incorrect and it's not discontinued...yet.
The new models will be launched anytime from Dec-March.
There are no major changes going to be made on the Diamante and Optima.
Only the Excella and LaPerla will get the auto-close door.
Based on that info, I can still get the Diamante, as it has the features that I need for $1379.
The Optima G2430SC is $1679 ($300 more). Going over the features listed in the brochure, I'm not sure
if we would need them. The delay start would probably be the only one we'd use, as we don't need the water softener, and we only use China during the holidays (wash by hand). So I doubt that for us, those differences warrant a $300 price increase.

About the warranty, the person from EXPO said their 4 year extended is $99 and is through GE, but GE then subs it out to local service agents that are trained and certified to work on Miele units. Even though the dishwasher will have a 2 year manufacture warranty, the 4 year extended start after the 1st year, meaning that during the 2nd year it would be covered by Miele and GE.
The rep from the Miele showroom said their 5 year extended warranty ($250) starts from the date the dishwasher was purchased. So in actuality, it would have a 2 year manufacture warranty and a 3 year extended, totaling 5 years.
So it doesn't matter if I go with the GE or Miele warranty, it would be covered for 5 years.
Based on that, I'd probably go with the one through GE for $99. The difference in price would pay for the installation.

Now I just have to go to Lowes this week and arrange for them to take this Electrolux unit back for a refund.

By the way...has anyone purchased the Miele Filler Strips ($50)? The rep said that most people are OK with the rubber strip that come with the dishwashers, but some people like the buy the extra filler strip to give the unit a more built-in look.

I would Call Miele headquarters and see if you can purchase the extended warranty after you have had your machine 1 year and 6 months. I thought you could purchase it online..that's what I did a few years ago however the service may be from Miele and not GE. This might extend the warranty a bit more.

Second regarding the Optima or Diamante...for 300$ the difference is not only the water softener or china crystal cycle. There are a few more such as:

It should be quieter since it is rated quieter.

It has a detergent selector which is used to get the best performance from different types of detergent such as liquids and tabs which can result in shorter wash times.

Yeah it has the softener but if you water is not hard it will not use it.

Parts of the cutlery tray can be removed to accommodate bigger items in the middle rack

You can wash crystal in the bottom rack, or you can fold the holders down and use them as an additional rack.

It has the autosensor which is used to sense the soil level of each load. This works with the vario temperature settings. This uses temperature ranges instead of fixed temperatures for different cycles.

For example: Today I ran a very dirty sensor load. I thought that because the load was very dirty it would use a very hot water temp. Instead the machine used the vario temperature function along with the sensor and it determined that the load could be cleaned at a lower temp. For this very dirty load I got a wash temp of 120F not 150F like I though I would(I measured the inside water about 4 minutes before the end of the wash) This is lower than the fixed 130F.

Temperature is important because the lower temperature used, the easier the detergent will be on your dishes. so I prefer having the machine vary the temp according to need rather than using fixed temperatures every time.

Whichever model you get I hope things will turn out OK.

I don't understand the bit about removing parts of the cutlery tray to accommodate bigger items in the middle rack. While the plastic trays come out, the cutlery rack's frame is still present and will contact tall items in the middle rack unless the two racks are moved in and out together. Does my confusion make sense?

Thanks for the tip. I called the main number for Miele USA tomorrow and ask about the warranty.

In the August 08 brochure, these are the differences it lists between the Diamante G2120SC and the Optima G2430SC, but it doesn't always explain what they are.

Temperature settings: 5 Diamante, Vario Optima
Economy cycle: Diamante
China & Crystal: Optima
Sound: Q2 Diamante, Q3 Optima
Auto Sensor

-Optima G2430SC additions ($1679):
Removable Bottle Holder
24hr Delay Start
Water Softener
Detergent Options

-Optima G2470SCSF additions ($1899):
Hidden Controls
Acoustic Function Monitor
Optical Function Monitor

When I saw the Optima and Diamante, both looked to have the same cutlery tray. I think only the Excelle and LaPerla had the cutlery tray in two removable sections.

For Detergent we use the Cascade 2-in-1 Packs (powder) with Dawn. For that, would the Optima be set for Gel or 2-in-1? The manual says the 2-in-1 setting is if it has a rinse aid built into the packet. The Cascade 2-in-1 does not, so I guess the Gel setting would be the best one to use.

As posted yesterday, the dishwasher would have to be connected to my Hot Water line. Because of that, it would be around 120F when it get to the unit.
It could heat the water even hotter if needed, but I wonder if it would lower the temperature if needed. It looks like the Diamante has 5 pre-set temperature settings (it doesn't say what the are) and the Optima can adjust it to any.
I'd have to think about the extra cost for the Optima, as a few of the features would be nice.
It's still sounds a bit odd to me that you have to spend over $1679 for a Miele dishwasher just to get a Delay Start, when my GE from 2 years ago had it for $600, and my current Electrolux does at $1300.
We like the look of the intergraded (SCSF), but its $200 more just for that. I'm not sure what the "Acoustic Function Monitor" and "
Optical Function Monitor" are. I ask tomorrow when I call them to find out about the warranty.

When I was at the Miele showroom last week, I brought some dishes, glasses, silverware, and a baking sheet to see how they would fit.
The tallest glass that I had just cleared the cutlery rack when the middle rack was in the highest position. Lowering the middle rack gave the glass more room, but then the middle spray was closer to the dishes. We put some of the silverware in the cutlery tray, and it wasn't as difficult to use as my mom thought it would be.

Sorry about causing confusion. I got the information from the brochure I received in 2006 so I thought it was talking about the split cutlery rack but now as I look at it again I think the removable information is referring to the removable plate rack that is found on the right side of the middle rack.

For detergent you would use powder because most of the pac is really powder not liquid. For using Gels you would use liquid. I use all kinds of detergents and when I use Cascade Gel I set the dispenser to liquid. It has shortened the cycle for some loads.

If the water is hotter than needed no time will be spent heating it and it will not apply additional heat unless the temperature drops below the target temperature it has computed for the load.

When the Miele Tech examined my Dw with the laptop a lot of information was displayed on the screen and among it was actual water temperature, and target temperature. We were running the short wash and at the beginning it was displaying a an actual water temperature of 96F and a target temp of 104F.

The lack of some features has probably been done to place the model within the brand line. For years Miele would only sell 2 models to NA and they were both expensive. The current line is their attempt to create more choice. Not perfect this go around. I think they offer 20+ different models in the UK all with different features and prices.

Monitors. I don't have an integrated machine but I will take a guess at these. The Optical Function Monitor is a light that shines down on the floor or up under the counter or someplace that tells you the machine is running. The Acoustic Function Monitor---maybe this is the tone that sounds when the cycle has completed(I have this set to off on my machine)

Measuring dishes: Did you push the racks in when you checked this. I know this sounds strange but I discovered that the bottom rack sits up in the door a bit and sits lower when pushed in so when I check to make sure the middle arm can move freely I do this with all of the racks pushed in. This may not be the case with the OPTIMA but it is the case with the LaPerla.

Chipshot do you know how to insert a picture into a post. I have some pictures of a cheese casserole load I can show if I can figure out how to get a picture in the post.