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Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Posted by megg (My Page) on
Wed, Sep 29, 10 at 23:23

After lots of research, including reading these threads, most of which were glowing reviews of Miele dishwashers over all other brands (also my sister raves about hers), I bought a G2432SC and had it installed by a local Miele certified installer. It replaced a 16-year-old Maytag which was leaving white residue and films of food on the bowls and silverware, and even on the mugs which only held herbal tea. So I put quite a few of those same dishes and utensils directly into the new Miele without using them in between. After that first wash I was disappointed to find that they were just as dirty as before. I called Miele tech support and they said that the detergent I was using, an environmentally friendly liquid called Wave, wouldn't work. He advised that I use Sunlight liquid detergent, but the bottle I had was so old that it had separated, so on my second try (again mostly with dishes that had not been used since before the last Maytag wash) I used a Cascade tab, and activated the tab option on the machine. After this second Miele wash, no better. All the silverware has food and/or a white film, the mugs are just as filthy, and most of the salad bowls have food residue on them. On my second call to Miele tech support this morning, I was told that the Cascade is worse than the Wave: that the environmentally friendly detergent puts salt in the mix which doesn't work when the machine has the Miele salt in it (we have very hard water and the installer put in a whole box), and the Cascade tab has too much detergent for European washers, and then he explained something about inadequate rinsing due to too much detergent so the dirt just washes back over the dishes and leaves them dirtier. He also said that if a Miele technician comes out and it's determined that there is nothing wrong with the dishwasher, I'll be charged a service call. He is now mailing me a bottle of dishwasher cleaner at no charge, and in the meantime I am to run 2 Rinse and Holds, and then I have to empty the dishwasher and run a Sani-Wash to which I add white vinegar 20 minutes into that cycle, then use the dishwasher cleaner when it gets to me after doing all that--apparently I've soiled the dishwasher by using the wrong detergent, none of which the owner's manual explains. Now I don't know what will actually make the dishes clean--only Miele tabs broken in half? If there weren't so many people who love their Miele dishwashers I'd believe it was all a hype, and I definitely wasn't expecting this all to be so complicated. I still don't know if I'll ever get clean dishes, and it seems that the Miele techs are well-versed in all the reasons it's my fault.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Hmm, this sounds really weird.
Your unit (Optima) is a step-up from mine (Diamante).
When I first got it earlier this summer, I used the Cascade 2-in-1 Action Packs, then changed to Cascade Complete Packs. When that ran out, I had a small sample box of Cascade powder, and then finally got the Miele Tabs in August. Not once did I experience these issues your having. Since you tried a Cascade tab and still had problems, I'm thinking it probably isn't an issue with the detergent, but something else.

What brand of liquid Rinse Aid are you using and what is the dispenser setting?
Are you using the Water Softener and what setting is it on?

Don't use the 'tab' option, as that turns off the rinse aid dispenser, as it thinks you are using a tab that contains rinse aid (which most really don't).

If the unit is brand new and under factory warranty, there is no charge for a Miele tech to come out and try to find the problem.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Umm....two dishwashers, same result....there's a clue in there. Something's changed.

With respect to Miehle, the first thing I would suggest with this machine or any other at this point would be to absolutely forget the self-softening salt-thing that is a feature of the machine. Get back to basics: Your water; your detergent.....period...nothing else in the mix. (My benchmark would be Cascade Complete powder) Societally, we've had home-installed dishwashers doing wonderful jobs for more than sixty years with hard water and much inferior detergents than we have today. Something is being missed.

Have you verified machine-fill to proper level? Have you verified temperature during the wash? Have you verified proper movement of wash-arms? Problems with any of these items can mess things up.....but the door's closed so nobody notices unless they make a point to examine and check.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Paragraphs.

For the love of God, Paragraphs!!! :)


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

deeageaux....it has always been thus. No hope for it.

Will help if I can, though.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

You would be really ahead of the game to install a whole house water softener--it can just be put on the hot water side---like we did.

It is entirely possible that your water got even harder (more minerals) than it had before. Just when I thought our water couldn't possible get any worse (harder), it did.
It "Totalled" our KA Disherwasher---it looked like "Snow" inside it and finally totalled the pump.

We had the water softener installed (about $36) before we added the Miele dishwasher, and it cleans well. It still looks "brand new", inside after close to 5 years of use.

I am going to add the soft water to the cold side too, as I can't seem to train the wife on using the hot water side only, so anywhere she turns on the cold water---sinks, tub, etc--you can see the lime deposits.

If your water is as bad as ours is, all you will accomplish by using the Miele's water softener is just "Lousy water but spiced up with some salt"!!!

Good luck!

Gary


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

"It is entirely possible that your water got even harder (more minerals) than it had before."

This is true. I'd still place my bet on one of the other possibilities.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

I'd bet that this white residue and film on the previous dishes is a combination of hard water desposits and etching caused by the previous DW.

Try a load with standard "appear to be clean" dishes and report the steps and the conclusion.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

I have two Mieles one in a house with very hard water and a softener. That one gave me fits before it got adjusted.

Before doing anything in the dishwasher, I'd try washing dishes with the white film by hand and see if it will come off. See if it will scrub off with a scrubbie. It sounds to me like those have hard water damage which may be impossible to remove.

I'm suprised a tech said to put vinegar in the dw as I believe that's not recommended. A descaling product might be indicated but first I'd get rid of the soap residue by running the dishwasher empty on sani cycle 2-3 times to clean it out as much as possible. I run mine on empty every so often -- it's surprising how much soap residue remains. I've even found undissolved bits of tabs.

Hard water is a problem and after the softener is used the soft water can be troublesome as well. With soft water, too much soap (or the wrong kind) and hot water glassware can etch -- white film that is said to be permanent.

Powdered Cascade and Electrolux caused glassware etching in the dw in our house. That stopped when I switched to 1/2 Miele tabs. I've also had good results with Somat tabs (easy to cut in half). My softener is set to 3.

I don't think there's one answer on detergent since water varies so much but most seem ok with the Miele tabs.

This can be really frustrating. Early on in the house, I spent a few months as a tech support regular until the machine got adjusted. They do it over the phone. It's boring but once adjusted, the dw should work really well. I've had 0 issues with my Optima, same model as yours. City water is fine, no salt needed, and no etching even with the leftover Cascade tabs from the old dw.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

"....I've even found undissolved bits of tabs."

Whoa...there's a clue!


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

megg- What part of the country are you in? Are you on city or well water? Have you had your water tested for silica? (softening with salt does nothing for this)

It's entirely possible that it is a combination of factors. Liquid detergents don't seem to work well with Euro DWs. Wave never worked for me and did cause etching in my old house with soft city water in an Asko DW.

What brand of rinse-aid are you using? I HIGHLY recommend using a citric acid based rinse-aid vs. Jet Dry. LemiShine makes a rinse aid (liquid) or you can try Ecover. Ecover worked very well on my soft city water, not as well on water-softened well water that is high in silica. I purchased the LemiShine rinse-aid, along with regular LemiShine (which basically is citric acid crystals), directly through their website as I could not find it locally.

Also, recently many detergent manufacturers have stopped using phosphates due to stricter environmental laws in many areas. The change over to enzyme-based detergents has been a shock for a lot of people. I know that it made headlines in Spokane, WA when they banned phosphates and people were driving into Idaho to buy the old formula.

I use Powdered Trader Joe's in my Asko (MAX 1 tablespoon combined for both compartments), DO NOT rinse your dishes. Euro DWs (Miele, Asko) combined with enzyme detergents NEED food stuff to clean properly. If they aren't working on cleaning food grime (not etching-a PERMANENT white film), they may cause etching - especially when using really hot water AND a salt for softening.

If that is etching on your dishes (which it sounds like it is), forget about them. Your best bet is to lower the wash temp, use no more than a TBSP of POWDERED ENZYME detergent, and ALWAYS use a citric acid based rinse aid.

You can also by Dishwasher Magic at Lowe's to clean the DW in the meantime. (It also is citric acid based.)

Hope this helps you.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

My Goodness, what a helpful post, Baver. One has to have a "Master's Degree" in "Euro DW's" to do dishes , nowadays.
Strange world we live in.

I have the tank water softener (Raine)( I suspects like Culligan). I Do not use any softner in the Miele--it glows a red lite at me cause no salt in it, but I just ignore it.

Wife throws in (Soap) and Jet Dry, whatever she has handy---She was using those tabs---but I recall reading where they caused problems (some said pieces of the tabs got stuck in the pump as I recall) Don't know if this really was a problem with the tabs, but saw enough posts about them that it scared me off.

Anyway very nice to offer your expert advice, I guess we were lucky, but so far "Knock on wood", that Raine soft water tank has made life easy for me and besides I'm too old to recall all you recommended (LOL)--Yea I could take notes, but then I would either forget the note or my glasses to read "Said Note"

Hope the suggestions work for the OP!!!

Gary


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

I've posted this before but I've started recommending the Finish Quantum detergent for all my customers with the problems mentioned here. I'm amazed at how well they performed in my Bosch D/W.
After running a clean out with citric acid I've had customers thank me for the recommendation as they started seeing the same results as I did. Believe me I'm a bit of a sceptic when it comes to claims from a manufacturer but a do have to say the dishes coming out of our d/w actually sparkle now. And I have extremely hard water.

Forget the powders it's my understanding after talking with the consumer engineer at Finish that they can't get enzymes to stabilize when they are mixed with the bleach in a powder form. The Quantum pack keeps everything separated in it's own walled off area and the walls dissolve at different rates so the enzymes have a chance to work before the bleaching agent is released. The enzymes work at lower temps, up to 125F but become ineffective at higher temps. the beach agent is not effective at lower temps but gains effectiveness as the temperature in the d/w rises above 125F.

I would recommend trying this before calling for service.

By the way all the d/w manufacturers have started sending out service bulletins regarding the poor washing results of the new powders without phosphates. I've seen one from GE and LG so far and my Bosch service rep has added detergent training to his fall classes and he says a bulletin will be coming out in a couple weeks.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

I can't understand why anyone that purchases such an expensive dishwasher should be expected to jump through all the hoops that Miele suggests. If your old Maytag never had a problem with scale when it was new then the Miele shouldn't either. I agree that your should try to remove the deposits by hand though. If they were baked on by your old defective Maytag, then your tests are inconclusive. If not, then you should't have to do anything but tell the Mielle rep to get someone out and fix your machine or take the darned thing back.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Nerdyshopper,
the reason the Maytag didn't have a problem when new is because decent detergents were being sold at that time. The crud that the detergent manufacturers are putting out now is the problem. You can no longer say I've been using this detergent for 15 years and never had a problem because the detergent has changed.

Dishwashers are all pretty basic. The are just a sealed box with water spraying in them. some have heaters some don't. So the only real major change has been the detergent. It has become one of my major headaches this year in service.
When people call us and complain of white film we try to walk them through what they need to do with a clean cycle and a detergent change. If they insist that we inspect the d/w we tell them we have to charge a service call if all we find is a detergent/hard water build up because that is not covered under the d/w warranty. Bad detergent is not the fault of Miele, Bosch, Asko, GE, etc.

If you wash your car with detergent that's not suited for the the job and it puts a white film on the paint would you call Ford to complain?


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

What asolo said...but with a few smiley faces. :)


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

I had a similar issue. I've linked my thread. Apparently, the Miele needs a lot less detergent than my previous dishwasher. I would hand wash the residue off. It won't come off in the dishwasher.

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele and white residue


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

did megg disappear?

agree (s)he has etched glassware, and the newer formula detergents are causing angst with many DW's especially euros.

a physician once told me many years ago that it's "almost, always, 99.9 % operator error" i.e. - the meds didn't fail, you failed to take them, or read the instructions, or..."

it usually boiled down to ignorance or laziness

dodge- your salt lite can be shut off. I'd tell you how but it amounts to holding your nose while standing on one leg and flapping your other arm like a chicken. Just call Miele and they'll walk you through the programming steps.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Thanks Antss, The light really doesnt bother us.

What's your thoughts on those "dissolvable" packs, There were several long threads on them, but "as usual", some bragged how great they worked--while others claimed they "gummed up" their machines----It may already be too late as I told the wife to toss em (Those soap packets---not the Miele)!

Gary


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Gary,
I found that the Quantum packs are giving the best all around performance in my area. The main key to using the enzyme detergents is to NOT preheat your water by running the tap at your sink. The enzymes work work better at the lower range of hot water, peaking at around 125F. he packs bleach is then starting to activate and it's performance is just starting at ranges above 125F.

THe Cascade packs are 2nd but I can see a difference in performance between the 2.
As to the "gumming up" I really haven't seen that unless the d/w doesn't do a good job of heating or the customer is using a short wash cycle.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Been using one of the Cascade powders (Extra Action? I don't remember) in my Miele Inspira for the last 2 months without issue. I use about a TBS in one compartment and run the "normal" cycle for everything except the dirtiest, greasiest loads. I have superhard water with a whole house softener. I put Jet Dry because I'd read you're supposed to, but I'm not convinced of it's usefulness and will experiment without it once it's gone. My dishes are spotless, and I'm very happy with the DW's performance. No film showing up, at least not yet. I'd be really unhappy if I had to jump through hoops to make my dishwasher work right. I'm a chuck-the-dishes in and take them out clean kind of gal...I expect my appliances to do their jobs with a minimum of hand-holding. Same with my kids and their chores.

I think the OP has figured it out and gone away, I just wanted to post so that people reading up on Miele's could see that you don't always have to work so hard to get the machine to work right. It can--and does, in my case--do just fine on the standard dishwasher detergents.

cj


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Thanks for all the ideas. My head is spinning. Lots of variations in people's experiences. Also, thanks for the empathy on all the hoops I seem to need to jump through just to get an expensive European dishwasher to do what it promises.
Baver, I'm in San Diego, on city water. The rinse aid I have in the dispenser is Ecover. I think I need to use that up before I can switch to another brand, maybe the LemiShine. Although people seem to be saying my problem is more a matter of the detergent amount/type, and/or the hardness of my water and the Miele-provided salt. Do I actually need to call up my local water authority and ask them the number of grains per gallon in my water? And then adjust the amount of salt being used? The owner's manual says how to make that adjustment, although the Miele tech said that the salt use during the cycle is self-adjusting. The installer just said I had maximum hardness in my water.
Rococogurl, I don't have etched glassware, just a white film on some of the utensils, and films and bits of food on almost all the utensils, bowls, and mugs (from herbal tea). I can scrub the white film off the utensils using an abrasive sponge (I just don't want to have to keep doing that).
I keep hearing to "scrape, don't rinse," but old rinsing habits are hard to break. I usually run water over the dishes right after I use them so food doesn't harden on them.
I don't want to get a whole house water softener, as I don't want to face the rest of my life showering without being able to rinse off the soap completely. I'm already needing to consider a new (RO) drinking water filter to take out the poisonous fluoride that's about to invade our water, and also considering how to alkalize my water. Some very steep learning curves these days.
I think what I'm going to do is empty the DW and use LemiShine, which I already have, (bought at Target), and then use either the Finish Quantum or the Miele tabs, broken in half, and see what happens. Fauguy, you advise not to use "Tab" option because the tabs don't contain a rinse aid--is that true for the Miele tabs, too? How about the Finish Quantum, Jakvis? I've used the "Normal" cycle for the 2 times I've run a load--would another cycle work better with tabs?
Fingers crossed for the next load...


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

It's funny. I have had no issues with the latest formula Finish tabs in my old Maytag. If it is only the phosphate free formulas for detergient how come our old machine continues washing with little or no prerinsing of our dishes pots and pans. On with the old machines and the heck with the new!!!


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

You just nailed one of the problems on the head when you said you still rinse your dishes, old habits dying hard and all...

DON'T RINSE YOUR DISHES. It's important nowadays not to. Rinsing the food off leaves little dirt for theses stronger detergents to act on, so they act on the glass and china itself by etching it and leaving films.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Thanks for the info on the Quantum packs. Next time we need to get more DW soap I will tell wife to try those.

Gary


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Meg, I used to live in San Diego 11 years ago and I remember the water being over 20 grains of hardness. We used to joke that you didn't take a shower but were sand blasted instead;-) Most of the water in San Diego comes from the Colorado river which is the hardest water river in the US and then it's delivered to San Diego via concrete canals where it picks up even more lime and calcium. needless to say but the water is extremely hard.

I don't know enough about the Miele tabs in regards to breaking them in half but the person I spoke to at Finish said not to break the finish tabs in half because the red ball is the enzymes. Besides your water is so hard you need the extra detergent.

Oh yeah, one more thing. Go Chargers!!!

Gary, before you go to the store I tell my customers to go to the Finish website to get a coupon for the Quantum. It will knock a few quid off the price.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

If I'm remembering correctly there were similar non-cleaning reports with Ecover in the Miele. Was it sshrivastava?

If the white stuff can be scrubbed off that's good -- it's probably not etching. One small mystery solved.

I use phIon to alkalinize my drinking water.

Here is a link that might be useful: PhIon


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Megg,

If you take a look at the dishwasher manual, you'll see where it talks about the 'tab' option on the front display. If it is selected, the dishwasher will think that you are using a tab that contains rinse aid, so it will turn off the liquid rinse aid dispenser. When 'tab' is not selected, it will dispense the liquid rinse aid.
The Miele tabs do not contain rinse aid (so don't select the 'tab' function), as it's best to use liquid rinse aid that is automatically dispensed by the machine during the final rinse cycle.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Hard water deposits are very difficult to remove. Use a commercial dishwasher cleaner and then use tang the breakfast drink. This has worked miracles for me.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

I don't understand why so many are making excuses for washers that can't clean. I always have tried to find the best performing soap for our machine at the lowest possible cost, and we used our water softener until it sprung a leak, but I wouldn't have bothered for a machine that couldn't clean at all. I would have gone to the dealers and bought a new one and told the dealer if it didn't clean dishes he was getting it back. That would apply especially if I paid for an expensive brand. Right now I think the problem is that the environment is more important than cleaning. Might as well go back to hand washing.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Megg - although it's really difficult to read your posts due to lack of paragraphs I just bought a brand new Miele G2832 La Perla II and I've had it for about a week.

#1 - is your Miele used? The 2400 series seems like an older series than the 2800 series like ours.

#2 - Ecover is not the right rinse aid to use in Miele. We use Jet Dry.

#3 - antss knows his stuff, he is super important on this forum so whatever he says to do I would follow his advice completely.

#4 - What dishwasher detergent are you using? I started a thread here about what to use in your Miele dishwasher and experimented. Do not use powder. I used Cascade powder and it did not come out very well, I switched to Cascade gel and am getting better results. I can't find that thread but when I do I will come back and link it.

#5 - Yes, you do need to phone up your local water and find out how many grains are in it and then adjust the Miele controls accordingly. Ours is 5.2 grains of hardness and my husband adjusted it to 5 in our Miele dw.

#6 - some people on GW said you need to use hard water with the salt in the Miele dw. I am using Somat salt.

Since we've adjusted it's been pretty amazing results. Nothing perfect just way better than the GE that was in here. The Miele is fantastic. I had one day where I stuff tons in and got a bit of water with some white stuff on one glass but I believe it was when I used Cascade powder instead of Cascade gel.


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miele dw

Here's the URL of the Miele dw detergent thread

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele Dishwashers - what can you use in them for dw detergent?


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

mielemaid,

About your #1, 2400 is not an older series than the 2800.
If you look at the Miele site, you'll see that the Inspira and Diamante start with a 2100, the Optima is a 2400, Excella 2700, and La Perla 2800. It's just the numerical order that Miele uses and has nothing to do with older or newer models.

In fact, the new models on their site end with a 2 or a 3.
The older models ended with a 0.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

I thought they replaced Excella with La Perla?


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Nope, there has been an Inspira, Diamante, Optima, Excella, and La Perla for several years.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Yo megg,,,,20 grains hard (Jakvis opined) and you don't wan't a softener?

Back to basics, IMHO. FIND OUT what your water quality is. Then start over.

We've had dishwashers with us for an awfully long time, now.....almost all giving excellent results with none of the problems you've described. Strongly suggest starting out by learning what's in your water and go from there. I have zero doubt you machine is fine.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

I'm back with the ongoing saga of the Miele Optima that's about to end. After my last post, I emptied the DW and used LemiShine to clean it of any residue. I went out and bought Finish Quantum on jakvis's recommendation, and this time I didn't rinse off the dishes, and the results were still unsatisfactory: white film (which can be scrubbed off, so it's not etching), and food residue. I called Miele Tech Support for the 3rd time, and I at first got the annoying "my Miele works great" line (not very good customer service). Maybe because I expressed my irritation this time, the tech scheduled a warranty appointment for 2 weeks later, the soonest available.

When the Miele tech, Patrick, showed up, the first thing he discovered was that the Miele certified installer had failed to turn on and set the water softener that he had put in, so it wasn't being dispensed at all. I see an earlier post here that indicates that this mistake is not all that uncommon. Patrick said that he didn't need to test my water, that in his experience SD water is 13-15 grains, and I think he set it for that. He did a bunch of testing on his computer and said he could find nothing mechanically wrong with it. He tried out the first detergent I used, Wave (environmentally friendly, bought at Whole Foods), and showed me how foamy it got, with a thick layer of suds in the bottom of the DW. My second load I used Cascade Action Pacs, and he said that should work, that he uses Cascade liquid detergent in his own Miele, and the tabs are the same. But he also pointed out that these don't contain rinse aid, so I shouldn't have set the Tab option. About the Finish Quantum, "I get lots of complaints about it"--apparently too concentrated. He called and had Miele send me some free DW tabs, but they were back-ordered to who-knows-when. He said to use a complete tab if the DW was full. Much to my surprise, they came fairly quickly so I did one more full load with a Miele tab, without rinsing the dishes, and setting the Tab option since the box says that the tabs contain rinse aid. I had high hopes this time, but they still had the same problem. Even a bowl that had come out clean before, because it had a very smooth inner surface, had some food on it this time.

So the next morning I called Miele and told them to take the damn thing back and give me my money back. I clearly have a lemon which the tech couldn't figure out, and I'm done with Miele DW's. (I do have a Miele vacuum cleaner which I like very much.)

So now I have to start my research over again on a new DW; I'm thinking of Bosch or KitchenAid. I am hooked on the 3rd rack silverware tray--can anyone tell me which KA's have that, and do any Bosches feature that? It has to be black, and I prefer visible controls. And is there any hope of a water-softener feature?

Thanks to everybody for their suggestions, and now I'd appreciate ideas on my next DW--I assume I'll have better luck!


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

With respect....your machine is fine....except for the heating element. Your tech is an idiot. And you're giving up too soon.

For example, did he stick around long enough to check the actual temperature in the machine during the wash-cycle? Of course not. He missed it entirely. Didn't he?

OK, let's wang on YOU, now. Have YOU measured the actual temp during the wash cycle? If you tell me you're reading above 120F -- which you should be -- and still getting the results you've reported, I will be astonished.

Dishwashers are pretty simple machines. Whether you've got $300.00 el-cheapo or a $2,500.00 top-of-the-line the principals are all the same. If it's working right and you've got the right dose of detergent in there, your dishes are going to get squeaky-clean. You and your tech are missing something, My first guess is the heating element. Could be wrong. I'll wait for you to tell me.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Dear Megg,

I had exactly the same problem a year ago with my brand new Miele Optima. Despite multiple permutations of detergents and rinse products, trying every possible setting, proper loading, correct adjustment of the salt dispenser, and service visits where the water temperature and wash times were dialed up so much that my dishes were all etched, my dishes consistently came out dirty with food stuck all over them. Even the water glasses had food on them. I posted at length here about the problem, but my thread has long since disappeared.

I finally invoked the Miele 90-day guarantee and told them to take the blasted thing back before all my dishes and glassware (which were still dirty) were irrevocably etched as well. I bought a KitchenAid KUDE60 (black with a third rack) and my dishes are now clean (finally).

So stick to your guns and don't let the critics here tell you that you're too ignorant to use a DW properly. It sounds like your Miele came from the same lemon-producing factory as mine.

Good luck!


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Yo warmfridge....use the search function. It's all there.

I don't buy either story en-toto. Something's missing. Understand you're blaming the the machines. Other posts blame detergents. I'm not there. I don't know what to blame...but I strongly suspect something basic's being missed.

DW's are simple machines. If the gizmo is working; if it fills properly and if the water gets hot; if you've got the right amount of detergent in there; if the pumps working and spray arms go around......there's no way it's not going to produce clean dishes every time. Cheap/expensive....I don't care. They're all the same, in concept. You're missing something.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Yo asolo,

I just searched. My original post is not there.

Feel free to call me a liar. I didn't miss anything. I had 3 months of dirty dishes and Miele couldn't find/fix the problem. End of story.

I think it's sad that people come to this particular forum with questions and are called liars, ignorant, and/or lazy. It happened to me, and now Megg's been treated the same way. Some of the critics here need an attitude adjustment.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Megg: did you try Cascade in it, the gel in a bottle cascade? And did you try Jet Dry? And did you adjust the particles to 15 or whatever your water is (when you phoned the water company)? And is your house on salt water already or no?

I'm using Gel Cascade from Costco and Jet Dry. We bought our machine in September and I'm not really having issues.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

I'm starting to wonder if there are some lemons in the Optima line. I do remember (in the past year) reading a few other posts (or thread) about people having cleaning issues with the Optima. That's one reason why I went with the Diamante, the other reason is that the Diamante was $300 less. I have had 0 issues with it cleaning in 5 months of using it. I began with the Cascade Action Packs, Cascade powder, and Cascade gel, then ended up with the Miele tab which I think works best....but all of them got the load clean.

When using the Miele tabs, they do not contain rinse aid, so the TAB function on the Optima should be turned OFF. This will allow the Optima to dispense the liquid rinse aid.

Megg, what I would suggest is to have them swap out your Optima with another Optima, or go with the Diamante. Either way, they should be able to do it without too much trouble since you'd had this ongoing issue. If for instance you tried the Diamante and its doing the same thing, then it has to be a problem with something else...like the water. The likelihood of having two lemons with two different models is very slim.

Good luck!


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

WarmFridge,

Just to let you know ... not everyone is aware of the problem ... the search field at the top of THS doesn't work. Use the search at bottom of the thread index page, where it offers a choice of "This Forum" or "Entire Site"


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

I'm back with the ongoing saga of the Miele Optima that's about to end. After my last post, I emptied the DW and used LemiShine to clean it of any residue. I went out and bought Finish Quantum on jakvis's recommendation, and this time I didn't rinse off the dishes, and the results were still unsatisfactory: white film (which can be scrubbed off, so it's not etching), and food residue. I called Miele Tech Support for the 3rd time, and I at first got the annoying "my Miele works great" line (not very good customer service). Maybe because I expressed my irritation this time, the tech scheduled a warranty appointment for 2 weeks later, the soonest available.

When the Miele tech, Patrick, showed up, the first thing he discovered was that the Miele certified installer had failed to turn on and set the water softener that he had put in, so it wasn't being dispensed at all. I see an earlier post here that indicates that this mistake is not all that uncommon. Patrick said that he didn't need to test my water, that in his experience SD water is 13-15 grains, and I think he set it for that. He did a bunch of testing on his computer and said he could find nothing mechanically wrong with it. He tried out the first detergent I used, Wave (environmentally friendly, bought at Whole Foods), and showed me how foamy it got, with a thick layer of suds in the bottom of the DW. My second load I used Cascade Action Pacs, and he said that should work, that he uses Cascade liquid detergent in his own Miele, and the tabs are the same. But he also pointed out that these don't contain rinse aid, so I shouldn't have set the Tab option. About the Finish Quantum, "I get lots of complaints about it"--apparently too concentrated. He called and had Miele send me some free DW tabs, but they were back-ordered to who-knows-when. He said to use a complete tab if the DW was full. Much to my surprise, they came fairly quickly so I did one more full load with a Miele tab, without rinsing the dishes, and setting the Tab option since the box says that the tabs contain rinse aid. I had high hopes this time, but they still had the same problem. Even a bowl that had come out clean before, because it had a very smooth inner surface, had some food on it this time.

So the next morning I called Miele and told them to take the damn thing back and give me my money back. I clearly have a lemon which the tech couldn't figure out, and I'm done with Miele DW's. (I do have a Miele vacuum cleaner which I like very much.)

So now I have to start my research over again on a new DW; I'm thinking of Bosch or KitchenAid. I am hooked on the 3rd rack silverware tray--can anyone tell me which KA's have that, and do any Bosches feature that? It has to be black, and I prefer visible controls. And is there any hope of a water-softener feature?

Thanks to everybody for their suggestions, and now I'd appreciate ideas on my next DW--I assume I'll have better luck!


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Somehow my previous post got re-posted--I don't know how.
Warmfridge, thank you for defending the reality of what I'm going through. I remember your post. At the time I was researching what dishwasher to buy to replace my 16-year-old Maytag, and I thought that your experience was unusual, but I never doubted that you had a problem with your machine. Now I'm not sure that the problem is that isolated.

In trying to find that particular post of yours (which I couldn't), I found another of yours dated April 9, which compared the Miele to the KitchenAid I looked at yesterday at Sears, the KUDE60. I'd prefer a model with visible controls (I like to see what's going on), but you answered all my questions about loading, especially whether the upper utensil rack was as efficient as the Miele. The Miele rack loads a tremendous number of pieces with not a millimeter of space wasted--I thought the KA utensil rack looked more clumsy, and you confirmed that.

Mielemaid, I used 3 different detergents and then the Miele tabs--if none of them got the dishes clean, then obviously the problem is something else. Fauguy, the Miele tabs I was sent say on the package "Integrated rinse aid function for a perfect shine." Maybe they've changed the formulation. Thanks for your acknowledgement that maybe there are lemons in the Optima line, but I no longer trust Miele DW's, and I haven't been so happy with the Miele tech "support" so I'm going for a different brand for my next try.

Again, any suggestions on dishwashers with the above features would be highly appreciated.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Somehow my previous post got re-posted--I don't know how.
Warmfridge, thank you for defending the reality of what I'm going through. I remember your post. At the time I was researching what dishwasher to buy to replace my 16-year-old Maytag, and I thought that your experience was unusual, but I never doubted that you had a problem with your machine. Now I'm not sure that the problem is that isolated.

In trying to find that particular post of yours (which I couldn't), I found another of yours dated April 9, which compared the Miele to the KitchenAid I looked at yesterday at Sears, the KUDE60. I'd prefer a model with visible controls (I like to see what's going on), but you answered all my questions about loading, especially whether the upper utensil rack was as efficient as the Miele. The Miele rack loads a tremendous number of pieces with not a millimeter of space wasted--I thought the KA utensil rack looked more clumsy, and you confirmed that.

Mielemaid, I used 3 different detergents and then the Miele tabs--if none of them got the dishes clean, then obviously the problem is something else. Fauguy, the Miele tabs I was sent say on the package "Integrated rinse aid function for a perfect shine." Maybe they've changed the formulation. Thanks for your acknowledgement that maybe there are lemons in the Optima line, but I no longer trust Miele DW's, and I haven't been so happy with the Miele tech "support" so I'm going for a different brand for my next try.

Again, any suggestions on dishwashers with the above features would be highly appreciated.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Warmfridge.........

"Feel free to call me a liar."

Nobody did that. Certainly I didn't.

"I think it's sad that people come to this particular forum with questions and are called liars, ignorant, and/or lazy."

Didn't do that either. I think its sad you've got such a big chip on your shoulder.

"Some of the critics here need an attitude adjustment."

Wasn't critical unless you want to really stretch it. Just suspected something being missed and said so. I don't think I earned your slap.

Seems to me your own attitude could use a tweak. Good luck with that.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

I concur.

Also, I notice after searching "megg site:ths.gardenweb.com" that the OP has a negative and fearful approach in other threads.

On the internet, profiles are unverifiable: it is known that some profiles will manage to end their thread with a conclusion that specifically is positive or negative to a company. Whether this is the case here is not clear. Still, I doubt whether this thread can ever lead to a Miele-positive conclusion. Some people who exhibit generalized anger are unable to resolve situations gracefully.

hth


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

"I used 3 different detergents and then the Miele tabs--if none of them got the dishes clean, then obviously the problem is something else. "

YES! It certainly is something else! In order of likelihood, I would look for 1) water temp 2) water fill-level 3) pump actuation/spraying including possible filter blockage 4) water quality. 5) Proper cycle sequencing. All except 5 are easy to check and easy to fix. 5 is easy for a tech.

Repeating.....if these things are OK with ANY machine, your dishes will get clean. If any one of them is bunged up, they won't. From the descriptions written so far, I would bet on water level and/or temp. Would be interested to learn what discovered if you choose to go further.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

asolo, You and all the other Miele fans have been unable to believe anything bad could happen to any of their products. I can see how those that have spent thousands for products that are available with better functionality for mere hundreds would be unwilling to face facts. You are too quick to blame the users and not your expensive products.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

nerdyshopper....

What an obnoxiously presumptive post. Really off the wall.

The thread is about a dishwasher that doesn't clean dishes. I've suggested several reasons why that might be happening -- with this Miele or with any other DW exhibiting the same reported symptoms. I have no idea why you would have a problem with that or how you could possibly presume to know what I believe about anything at all let alone whether or not I'm a "Miele fan". (I'm not, particularly. Just trying to lend a hand.)

I have not "blamed" the user unless you consider the obvious conclusion that something is being missed in diagnosing the problem to be "blame". Seems to me you're the one who has trouble "facing facts". Have you anything to bring to this table except your own anger?

Don't much care about locking horns with you or warmfridge.

Would be interested in learning what's going on with this machine, if possible. I suspect it's one of the items I mentioned, but haven't had any feedback.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

My apologies to you asolo and all the others trying to be helpful. I just ran out of pacience with so many suggesting this or that thing to check out. For goodness sake, this thread is so long and filled with repeated attempts by megg to jump through every hoop suggested and still the machine is not working. I think she has gone through enough. This is either a lemon or a bad design by all reasonable standards and no amount of reasoning can change that. I would have insisted that it work the way I expected or got my money back much sooner. If I couldn't get satisfaction legally, then I guess I'd just toss it. But I wouldn't fuss with half tabs or mixed tabs or adding some wierd salt. New detergent should just work, Period. If not take the box back and get your money back. Same applies to the machine.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

23 hours ago I posted. About megg .

asolo is up front working the options.

Everybody can admit that a machine might not work well.
In this thread, problem solving approaches are suggested.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

"This is either a lemon or a bad design by all reasonable standards and no amount of reasoning can change that."

With respect, you have no idea.

From what's been written, I don't buy that for second. Hard to tell from cyber-distance, but I have little doubt the machine can be made fine with a proper diagnosis. That's why I said the tech was an idiot. There isn't that much to look for. He either didn't have enough experience or was unwilling to spend enough time waiting through a cycle to see what's happening....or, more likely, failing to happen. To do that would take him a couple of hours and I doubt he's willing or that his employer would allow it. If he would, he'd find the problem.

"New detergent should just work, Period."

From what's been written, I'm confident the detergent isn't the problem. And all this stuff about "European Machines" and their not working with particular detergents is just silly. European machines spray hot water around inside a box just like American machines. If somebody can explain to me what mystical characteristic about them requires only particular types of detergent and exclusion from consideration of others, I'll be very interested in acquiring the new knowledge.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Stepping in to say I think asolo is right about detergents. My Miele works just fine with good old Trader Joes powder.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

Megg: I really think you got a lemon in your dw. I had some odd "film" at first with my LaPerla, but after a couple of washes it got itself sorted out. Now, even though I had some "white film" on the dishes my dishes were still clean inside, I don't know if that was your experience.

It got sorted with the amt of hardness in our water (it's at 6 particles) and with Jet Dry in the rinse thing, and using gel Cascade. I had to figure out how much to use in the dw.

Hope you like your new dw. Maybe you should return this and get a LaPerla! :) Just kidding, but I swear my LaPerla is amazzzzing.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

There is only one thing to expect out of a dishwasher: clean dishes and no BS. Much like asolo, I would love to get my mitts on the dishwasher to find out exactly what is wrong with it but that is purely intellectual curiosity, nothing more. I do not blame megg or warmfridge or anyone else on here who is NOT interested in spending the next 3 months doing the technician's job for him. To he77 with that noise. Go get something else, Megg, maybe it will induce Miele to train their techs better or improve their onboard diagnostics. In any case, good luck to you finding a suitable replacement machine. I have had real good luck with our Bosch but it is one of the older models with the all stainless tub. YMMV.

Lastly, quoting user davidro1,

Also, I notice after searching "megg site:ths.gardenweb.com" that the OP has a negative and fearful approach in other threads.

On the internet, profiles are unverifiable: it is known that some profiles will manage to end their thread with a conclusion that specifically is positive or negative to a company. Whether this is the case here is not clear. Still, I doubt whether this thread can ever lead to a Miele-positive conclusion. Some people who exhibit generalized anger are unable to resolve situations gracefully.

I find this comment offensive. There is nothing particularly negative or fearful about Megg's posts. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that she is anything other than sincere. She has posted her experiences honestly and is under absolutely NO obligation to second guess or correct a professional technician dispatched by Miele. She is NOT trying to game anything, make your favorite dishwasher maker look bad, or anything else. She wants clean dishes and has had a bellyful of excuses out of Miele. It is clear that Miele likes to blame the user and shuffle off responsibility for poor performance to the owner. That hubris is at fault here, not the customer.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

You might just have a lemon, Megg.

I've had my 18" Miele for 8 years or so and love it, but I do get etching if I put in more than a tablespoonful of powder. I just use Cascade -- Jet Dry -- and scrape, don't rinse, those plates! But if this routine doesn't work, then take the whole thing out and get a Bosch or something else. Life is too short for appliance angst.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

"Life is too short for appliance angst."

I certainly agree with that! However, given the number of gizmos we all have in our lives, at least a little comes with the territory.

Many years ago bought a new dishwasher that didn't work. Replaced faulty fill solenoid under warranty in ten minutes and it's worked fine for almost a decade, now. Most of these mfg or install errors -- which do occur with EVERYTHING made -- are easily fixed. In particular with dishwashers, there isn't that much to look for.

Haven't heard back about checking for problems. Continue to suspect the issue is a simple one. Would love to be there to examine this machine.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

This is a two way street. The people that get all ruffled at Miele when they suggest that there might be operator error are guilty of the same behavior they're accusing Miele of. They are not considering the possibility that they or a particular use might just using the appliance improperly !

I've had almost 20 years with these machines and Miele sometimes sends out or you receive a bum steer. I've personally seen ones arrive with seized pumps or non functioning heaters - you can count them on less than one hand, but they are out there.

second, Miele designs and builds one of the most advanced and highest quality units in the industry today. Like any other company, they sometimes ship a defective unit or it gets broken in transit from Germany or they just get or specify a not so good batch of parts. This does not man that they are a bad or inferior company. It does mean that THAT particular user's experience is not so rosey and like a wrecked car you can't un-wreck it.

Knowing that you design and produce one of the best machines in the market it's natural for a company to take the view that if there is an initial prob. that it is operator error, especially when the data actually bears this out.

Now, what this doesn't take into account is that the product might just not be the correct choice or a particular individual. i.e I just like rinsing my dishes so they don't get crusty or I like using x brand of detergent which for whatever reason doesn't work in a particular unit. (asolo - I agree with you in principle, but some combos just don't work especially in the prior generation) Or - my dishes are wet AND I refuse to use rinse aid. The prob. is big corp. brother makes NO provision whatsoever for the fact that sometimes a product is not a good fit for or able to meet the needs of some customers.

For those that take umbrage at all the try this or that. Take a breath - most of these are good suggestions that have worked for people that have had problems with these in the past - sure it'd be nice to take it out of the box and have it adapt to my habits without needing to read the manual, but that isn't the case with much these days.

Again - all this hopping on one leg patting one's head while tugging the left earlobe may be more than a particular customer wants or feels (s)he should have to invest in getting a tool to work for them. But, refusing to do it once you're in the game AND THEN calling the product or co.'s stuff, junk isn't quite fair.

I'd advise megg not to get a Bosch - or any other Euro washer and the results are very likely to be the same. I do hope (s)he will come back and tell us what they ended up replacing the miele with and how the new unit fairs.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

I'm not sure but it almost seems like the problem first showed up with the old dishwasher. Am I misinterpreting that?


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

I think our expectations for any machine that costs over twice as much as most competitors should be very high. They should have enough profit to do a thorough job of testing each unit before it leaves the plant. As asolo says its just a box, pump and spray arm system regardless of who makes it. It shouldn't be a research project for the poor person that bought one.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

"It shouldn't be a research project for the poor person that bought one."

Complete agreement.

From what I've read here, I think the dealer dropped the ball on this deal.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

:::giggle::: I resemble that remark, Antss!! LOL!

I won't use rinse aid (soapy flavor) or any detergent that hurts my hands if I touch it (too caustic). I don't run the DW anywhere near daily when there aren't people in the house, and don't have a lot of mass in my loads. Going into a purchase I knew the Miele, however good it might be, wouldn't work for me. The first DW I tried, the lovely new Viking, which I loved, didn't dry the dishes with their heated dry, which I hated. They knew it had some problems and took it back. The Monogram replacement dries on the right settings, but does require pre-rinsing if dishes are going to accumulate for 3-7 days, and will clean any food bits that cling rather than rinsing them off. Sigh.

Anyway, with 7th Generation powder, which made the dishes positively sparkle and shine in my last two dishwashers, was leaving big, blotchy, white filmy spots on my plastics. I was so grateful that the dishes were dry that I decided to live with it.

The new 7th Generation pacs have solved that. They have a little rinse aid in them, but not enough to leave the glasses tasting soapy, plus they're easy to use. My water is neutral hardness (not hard or soft).

Megg, I'm not telling you to try yet another thing. I, personally, think it's ridiculous that the old machines worked so much better under the exact same circumstances, and force people to adapt to them, rather than just doing what they're supposed to under a broad range of variables. But I do want you to know that you're not alone with being dissatisfied with a dishwasher that works just the way the maker thinks it should but still gives you less than ideal results when you use it the way you're accustomed to. I have a lot of sympathy, and hope you find a solution that gives you clean, clear dishes.


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RE: Miele DW excuses for dirty dishes after 2 washes

I just want to thank those of you still visiting this forum who contributed to this thread. I have a four year old Bosch that had the same problems. While I still think that my water softener isn't working and have yet to approach that problem, the suggestions above to clean out the dw (I used commercial lime solvent) and start over with Finish Quantum and Lemishine Rinse worked for me. This dw issue, along with other issues in my life, was really bringing me down!! Why does everything hit the fan at the same time? Anyway, you helped me more than you know, and I am so grateful to people like you who take the time to help troubleshoot.


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