1. Capital Culinarian CGMR304 (manual clean)
2. BlueStar RNB RNB304BV1
3. American Range Performer Series ARROB430N $3299

That would be the list I a would be looking at.

Using one power burner at full power is definetly not too much and you can always turn the burners down but you can't turn those low powered sealed burners beyond the max.

On looks my favorite is the Bluestar. The others about the same.

Capital will have the coolest oven door but will not fit a full size cooking sheet.

Gardenweb has seen only one review on AR Performer series but the owner really liked it.

AR IMO would be the worst in terms of facotry service and support.

Capital historically would be at the top but has staggered as of late and Bluestar has gotten better lately. IMO that would be a wash right now.

AR has the highest BTU burner at 25k btu but greatest distance between burner and grate.

The differnces are small in cooking perforance so which one is best for you depends on how you cook and what techniques or parts of cooking are most important to you

I'll agree completely with the above recommendations.

If money is of zero concern then I would agree with Deeageaux"s list completely.
Although from the looks of such a tiny kitchen it might be a bit over kill.

If price is of any concern then an NXR would be a good choice.

"There is a hood over the range (no microwave or cabinets, just a hood with flue that goes up to the ceiling). The hood vents back into the room and we do not have the option to have it exhaust."

^^This would be rate limiting to me when considering the total BTUs of your listed manufacturer's gas ranges. If I understand you to say you have no active range exhaust system then I encourage you to investigate how to install one or to reconsider high BTU ranges. jmho though. Good luck.

Thanks, all. Can anyone else comment on what SparklingWater said about the issue of my hood? That's a significant matter and I do not have the option to install an exhaust system. I'd hate to buy and install a high-end range and then find out it's damaging my kitchen or that I can't use it to its full potential. It would be like buying a Ferrari and only being able to drive it 30 mph.

You will not damage your kitchen in any way by installing a powerful gas range.

It comes down to how hot is too hot for ambient kitchen temperature.It wil not get hot enough to cook your wood cabinets LOL just make you feel uncomfortable at some point.

There are a few people here that have a Bluestar with no hood at all. You have a recirculating hood that removes grease but exits heat back into the kitchen.

I cook with a single 23K btu burner and feel it is not too hot. Turn on the oven at 350 and two 23k btu burners then it becomes too hot IMO and need to turn on my hood at full blast.

It all depends on the particular person. Capital does have the coolest temp door. You will feel the least heat on your legs. If that is more importnat than fitting a full size baking sheet in the oven or saving cash with American Range then go with Capital.

We just returned from a week in a beach condo with just a recirculating fan. We were able to open the doors and had a stiff sea breeze which did help ventilate. The heat is only a part of the issue. The main reason for ventilation is to remove smoke and aerosolized grease. Look at the baffles on a hood if you want to see what I mean and most of the smoke/grease makes it outside. By almost all accounts the recirculating fans do a poor job of this. Any of these ranges can generate smoke and grease if you cook with high heat. There are some commercial hoods with electrostatic precipitators but I am not sure if that is anything you can use residentially.

Culinarian--If heat is a limiting factor and you could only use one burner at full capacity, I can't see the need of 4 high burners and the questionable simmer and service. I am going by the number of threads concerning these issues. There are also those who claim the simmer is adequate for the way they cook.

The BS would give you a high burner and simmer.

DCS and Wolf-Both have the dual stacked burners. I have the Wolf sealed burners and they have plenty of heat for me and the simmer/warm is great on all burners. We do lots of quick dinners after work, so use the higher heat for that. I never have to turn the burners up all the way.

The Monogram range, also with dual stacked burners, has some interesting features on the oven. It incorporates the broiler and convection fan elements in the convection cycles. Maybe some will comment on how well this works.

On the Cafe, I'm not sure I like the configuration of the cooktop. The griddle might not be wide enough to be very usable and the element for it is only 8000 BTUs. It is nonstick as well so would have a short life. I would rather have the four burners with the bigger platforms and use an overlay griddle if needed.

Electrolux and Bosch both have their fans as well and certainly a consideration as is the NXR.

Some of these ranges mentioned are deeper and will stick out from your cabinets if that is a consideration. I would also make sure that any broiler you buy will work with the door closed.

wekick, thanks for all that; it's very helpful. I think Capital may be out of the running for financial reasons. My wife is pretty set on sealed burners and self-cleaning, and to get self-cleaning in a Capital would increase the price beyond what we can afford.

I'm not nuts about the looks of the Cafe either. :-)

Thanks for the info about your experience with Wolf. How is the oven? Baking and broiling OK? That might be the one range my wife would sacrifice self-cleaning to get.

We have a Bosch dishwasher and it's fantastic. It's so quiet you have to look and see if the red light is on to know whether it's running. Does a great job cleaning too.

At the moment, based on bang for the buck and looks, we're leaning towards either the Monogram or an Electrolux. I think our next step will be to go to the AjMadison showroom in Brooklyn and get an in-person look at some of these ranges.

Have you looked at the italian flavors? Berta, Verona, etc.

Yeah, but I keep reading horror stories about repairs (cost and difficulty).

If you are really looking for "Bang for the buck" then NXR is without competition, nothing else even comes close.

Has the same burners as the Wolf, excellent all around parts, 4 identical 15,000BTU burners that also go down to ultra low simmer, excellent convection oven and infrared broiler all for $2000 or less.

I haven't been reading these boards for long, but I've been reading them long enough to know that you MUST be getting a commission from NXR. ;-)

Sorry, but I've seen too many posts saying they're not great quality, they're made in China and if you need parts, good luck. I'm glad you are happy with yours though.

jjkatz, I would worry about using the self clean without ventilation as it lets off a lot of fumes. The Monogram does have the self clean though as well as the Cafe I believe.

My range is DF so I cannot comment on how the Wolf gas oven works.

The Wolf ranges no longer have the burners like the NXR. They used to have sealed and semi sealed, the semi sealed being like the NXR. They are all sealed now. The simmer on the sealed burners is wider than the one on the semi sealed burners.

Yes, the GEs both have self-clean as does the Electrolux Icon, which has made our latest short list. I know self-clean also can generate a lot of heat if the oven isn't well insulated. One issue for us is that we both have back problems so bending and reaching into an oven to scrub it out might not be the most comfortable thing for us to do.

FWIW, I e-mailed GE, Wolf, Capital and BlueStar on Saturday with a description of our kitchen and asking for their thoughts. So far the only one that has gotten back to us is Wolf, so they're winning the customer service competition so far.

Think what ever you wish.
But you have seen VERY FEW post from people that OWN it saying any such thing. I have only seen I think 3 post from owners having any problems/complaints.
Dare you to name ANY range with no complaints.
I also hear just as much if not more problems with parts and everything else from virtually every other manufacturer, so the main thing is just whom happens to pick up the phone in your area is the deciding factor on how your service is going to be, regardless of what brand.
The NXR seems to me to be every bit the quality of any range selling for twice for the price.
The only thing I can think of that is "made" in China on it is just the outer stainless skin.
All the rest of the parts are from very high quality manufacturers from Germany, Italy, Australia and the USA.
It is then simply assembled partially in China then finished in California.

But to each his own, I am thinking the GE monogram would be the best fit for you, more money less stove and the actual parts are made in China and assembled here. LOL

Well, Capital is out of the running. I just heard back from them and they advised against installing their ranges under a recirculating hood. At least they were honest and willing to lose a sale.

I think the short list now is (in no particular order):

1. GE Monogram
2. Electrolux Icon
3. Wolf R304

Call GE,Electrolux and Wolf. Ask them if they adivse installing their ranges under a recirculating hood.

Re Wifey wanting sealed burners. You came to GW to inform yourself right? Not simply to confirm biases already held by talking to appliance salesman repeating the meme that sealed burners are easier to clean and you will hate cleaning open burners. You and wife should really research and learn about differences between sealed and opened burners.

RE NXR

All buyers of NXR have been told they may very well be buying a Chinese POS and that NXR service is a POS.

Either NXR has far superior quality to American ranges or those buyers don't post their quality/service issues because they don't want to hear "I told you so" from the GW community.

Potential buyers can decide for themselves which is more likely.

I would say you can run a Capital with a re-circulating hood as long as it's kept clean and at least 27 inches above the burners. The only concern would be to have a bunch of grease in the hood that could catch on fire from flambe or a fire in the pan.

Cooking greasy foods on the stovetop, no matter how powerful the burner is when a good hood and fan is required.

You can GFY.

I seriously doubt ANY NXR owner has done any such thing.
I certainly have NOT.
I resent being called a liar.

I have no idea what NXR service is like "in my area" because I have never had to call them, other than that the Range is working perfectly without any problems other than a couple extra clicks maybe once or twice a week when starting a burner.
and again the NXR is made from high quality parts from all over the world, Germany, Italy etc.
it is only partially assembled in China.

Unlike the GE Monogram I might add which apparently the PARTS come from China and is merely assembled in the USA.

You can bad mouth the NXR all you wish, but being a NON owner you only make yourself look foolish.

" Looks may matter in terms of resale but my biggest priority is that it cook, bake and broil well. Good support and service from the manufacturer matters a lot to me also....I think the short list now is (in no particular order)"

1. GE Monogram
2. Electrolux Icon
3. Wolf R304

Of the three you list, I think the Wolf R304 fits your above description perhaps the best. Long time manufacturer, strong following, great resale, strong customer support which in Manhattan should not be hard to find. I have cooked and baked on a Wolf and it was a joy. I did not had uneven heat distribution that some describe, and if that were to occur, I would have it serviced which is what Wolf is also known for. I believe the Wolf range is made by Subzero now if that matters to you. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable that I would comment on this.

Good luck to you and your wife and enjoy yourself in your new NYC apartment!

I would strongly suggest that you really think through what cooking with a high powered BTU burner and no ventilation will really be like. How is your HVAC? Do you think that your AC can deal with all the extra heat produced? Where will the smoke go? Will you have an operable window? Into the 99 degree 70% humidity of a summer's day? Or will that just let that humidity and heat into your kitchen? Even just sauting mushrooms in butter aerosolizes grease particles that will float around the apartment and onto your kitchen cabinets and out into the other rooms and into the soft furnishings. Sure, you can get a supper high CFM recirculating fan, and that will help with the grease. You'll have less grease to deal with. But, you'll still have all of the steam and smoke and heat inside the apartment.

Do you find cooking in such an environment appetizing enough to be able to endure it? In other words, does the end result of a better sear on your meats, and the opportunity to do a real Szechuan stir fry make up for the fact that you will choke yourself to death while doing it?

"Re Wifey wanting sealed burners. You came to GW to inform yourself right? Not simply to confirm biases already held by talking to appliance salesman repeating the meme that sealed burners are easier to clean and you will hate cleaning open burners. You and wife should really research and learn about differences between sealed and opened burners. "

The ease of cleaning is a very subjective decision.
Gardenweb is a public forum of subjective opinions. Some of what is posted here about open and sealed burners is a regurgitation of some manufacturer's marketing, stated as though it is fact. Other postings involve personal cooking experience. You might have to do a little reading outside of this forum to understand how burners work.

Either NXR has far superior quality to American ranges or those buyers don't post their quality/service issues because they don't want to hear "I told you so" from the GW community.

Are you serious? I think people are more likely to post their bad experiences. You honestly think people are afraid of you saying "I told you so."? ......
I don't think they are.

I think Nunya has related his experiences with NXR and they have been helpful. What can you say? The man has had a great experience and is a fan. Costco was/is? selling them and they have a open ended return policy. How could you do better than that? I've read of much grief on this board with getting service on other brands. I do discount the opinions of those who speak about something they have never used.

""I think Nunya has related his experiences with NXR and they have been helpful. What can you say? The man has had a great experience and is a fan. Costco was/is? selling them and they have a open ended return policy. How could you do better than that? I've read of much grief on this board with getting service on other brands. I do discount the opinions of those who speak about something they have never used.""
========================================================

Thanks for the kind words, and wisdom.
I believe some people just have this fetish about anything China related. It is basically the same as we had back in the 70s I think it was when "Made in Japan" was basically a cuss word and everything from Japan was considered garbage.

What that was is the same as China today, the US companies were going to Japan demanding cheap manure and getting exactly what they wanted and paid for. All Japan did was make exactly what the US company asked for.
Japan made Billions doing that then set out making high quality electronics, cameras and cars competing with the high quality German products.

China is doing the same today.
US companies getting US products made in China, going to Chinese companies with the blue print of what they want and the price point they are willing to pay (cheap as humanly possible) because everything must sell for $9.99 and have a 60% profit margin in the US.

Meanwhile actual Chinese companies making Chinese products are fairly decent quality for a good price.
NXR being one of those items.
A Chinese company buying top quality parts from all over the world, some of the best German made burners, some of the best Italian made hinges and so on. Very little of the range is actually "made" in China, mostly just the stainless skin is about it.
In fact the GE Monogram is made MORE in China than the NXR is. LOL
But to the Anti China anything crowd that is all they see.
To them China equals crap regardless of the FACTS.
My Kamado BBQ grill is 100% Chinese made by a Chinese company and is without question the very best grill I have ever owned BY FAR.

Believe me, if this NXR was a lemon you would damn well know about it from me as I would be cussing them out up one side and down the other without hesitation.

Honest unsnarky question from one who has never owned more than a POS recirculating hood.

Why do higher powered burners need hoods more than average powered burners? I am plenty capable of throwing lots of grease and smoke in the air with my POS average range - could I throw more if I had bigger burners?

If you can't vent, you can't vent. And it will be annoying with whatever stove you choose. So you might as well get the one you want, which sounds like Wolf?

cottonpenny, I was thinking similar thoughts. The concerns some people raised about grease, smoke, etc. would be true of ANY range, even a $300 rental-apartment piece of junk. The only way to avoid them would be to not cook in the apartment at all.

So far Wolf and Capital are still the only companies that have responded to my inquiries. Some manufacturers will void the warranty if you don't install the appliance in accordance with their requirements, which in Capital's case appear to include an exhaust hood, which is simply not possible for us. There is no place to put the ductwork and the building wouldn't allow it.

We're planning to go to the AjMadison showroom on Sunday. I'm sure we'll have an answer by the time we're finished there. But yes, if I had to pick one right now it would be the Wolf. That could change in an hour. :-)

It seems like when it comes to hood requirements the manufactures base it on all burners on and on high at the same time. I may in the minority, but my cooking does not employ all burners being on and on max. Did Capital say they would void your warranty without a hood? Recommended and required are not always the same.

I read an article a while ago that basically said that 600 CFMs were adequate for most home cooking regardless of BTUs of the burners because people rarely use all the burners on maximum at the same time. Range/hood manufacturers propagated that idea of needing more CFMs to sell bigger hoods. The one exception is a grill on the cooktop which can generate a lot of smoke.

as the well stated kaseki has repeated so often - even in professional hoods, the CFM ratings aren't what's important, it's the capture area. & if you don't have 24"+, then Let your nose & eyes be the determinate.
IMO - if you smell it after cooking or if it's smokey - you know you are under ventilated.

I would ask how do you cook now? How much smoke/grease do you generate and how is the present setup handling it? I agree that can be a problem on any burners. I think with the bigger burners, the reason you would even want them would be that you intend to use more heat which would tend to be that smokier type of cooking, except boiling water which would be steamy, so you need better ventilation.
I would imagine it would be a rare person who would have all the burners going on high all at once. Surely there is someone on these boards who has. ;-))

eve72 -- Capital didn't say it in their e-mail, but they did discourage me from buying their range. I'd have to read the installation instructions to know whether they have that in there.

wekick -- I would say we don't generate a lot of smoke and grease. We don't fry or broil that often; the smokiest thing I might cook is a burger in a cast iron skillet on the stovetop. Once in a while something blackened but VERY rarely.

Our recirculating hood is rated at 600 CFM. GE replied to my inquiry today, and both they and Wolf said my hood would be sufficient for their ranges. Capital said no and BlueStar hasn't responded yet.

And da winnah is........

Monogram.

We went into a local appliance store that had the Monogram and the Wolf, and we were very disappointed in the look of the Wolf. It's clearly an entry-level range in their line. The knobs weren't the big beefy Wolf knobs that everyone loves; they were cheap knobs with a gap behind them like you see on $300 stoves, and two of them were loose on the display model. My wife also felt that the Wolf grates were too heavy, and didn't like the fact that the wok grate is a separate grate (on the Monogram you flip the grate over for wok cooking).

The GE offered more bang for the buck, including slide-out racks on ball bearings, that don't need to be removed for self-cleaning.

MSRP was $5,899; the store we were in (P.C. Richard) had it marked at $5,199 and we got it from AjMadison for $4,300.

Thanks everyone for your input; it was a great help in our decision-making. The Capital would have been nice, but alas, 'twas not to be. I'm sure we'll be happy with what we got.

Remember than with gas, 60% of the heat produced goes out into the room rather than into the pan. That is a LOT of heat on a hot summer day when your AC is already struggling. Trust me, I'm in the South, and this has been one hot summer when I've rarely fired up the stove to cook anything, and I've got decent ventilation. There have been a few quickly seared chicken breasts, etc, but that's about it. I just don't enjoy making dinner and then having to take a shower before I eat it. It's even been too hot to grill outside, and that's saying something!

You may not end up using all burners at once, but with higher BTU's on your new range, you are essentially using two burners in place of the one you previously used. If you had a "regular" residential range with 9000 BTU, and you are replacing it with one with 18,000 BTU, just using two burners will be similar in heat output to using all 4 of your old range. As in heat output in the apartment. Your apartment may not allow you to vent externally, but would they allow you to install a window AC unit into the kitchen to account for all of that extra heat in the summer? If they would allow that "alteration", then a precedent has been set to allow an exhaust unit adapted to blow through the kitchen window. That would at least allow you to get rid of the smoke (and there will be a lot more at 18K BTU than 9K BTU!) and heat. If you can't wrangle them around to "an alteration is an alteration, so what's the difference", then I guess you'll have to adapt to "salad summers" as well.

There is no window in the kitchen. We really had no alternative to gas, unless induction ranges can use a 120v 15 amp circuit. Plus, induction technology is still a little too new for my taste, and I didn't want to have to replace all my cookware.

People cooked for years without hoods. While I certainly advise a hood that vents outside, if you can't, you can't. Get the range you want. You don't have to crank the burners up all the way all the time. I have a pro-style range and rarely have the burners more than halfway. Only use high for boiling water and stir frying.

Higher BTU/h burners can indeed throw out smoke and grease at a higher rate than a lower rated burner. It is not uncommon for me to have flare ups when saute'ing or wok'ing with either CC or BS burners on high. Taking it further to a 150k BTU/hr wok "jet" burner, it will vaporize oil in under 30s of preheat. Practically, if you cook on high heat with a 12k BTU/h burner and are happy with it, then you will likely cook with the CC/BS burner at medium most of the time. What you gain is more even heating and the ability to go sear better when the need arises.

In general, most will tell you to avoid recirculating hoods all together. I honestly don't think the CC is any more dangerous or ill advised than a wolf or KA. There are basically a few things you have to worry about and those are heat, moisture, and grease. IMHO, heat is the least of the concerns. Open a window or turn on the AC will solve the heat issue. Actually those will solve the moisture issue as well. I think the biggest concern is grease accumulation. Recirculating hoods typically do an ok job of removing grease *but* the filters must out perform externally vented hoods because they can't depend on venting the remaining grease out. The better recirculating hoods will have multi-stage filters to pull more of the grease and other particles out. Personally, I would not limit my range purchase because I can't vent out. I may invest in a "better" recirculating vent if one exists. I know VaH had one that was multistage but my experience with VaH was not great I would look around to see what others have to offer.

Our hood is new (we just redid the kitchen) and since our current range sucks we really haven't been able to put it to the test. It's a Windster RH-30.

To get comparable features on a Capital range would have set us back over $6K and we just can't afford that. They're beautiful and I'm sure we'd have loved it but even what we spent on the Monogram is pushing it. Power-wise I'm sure it will be more than adequate for us.

While it's true that folks have cooked indoors for millennia without vented hoods, it is only recently that high BTU ranges have become common (if they can even now be described as "common"). I'd be surprised if high-heat wok cooking, searing, or blackening were very common cooking techniques in primitive kitchens. For sure I never contemplated any of them before my renovation and the installation of serious ventilation. Yet, even with my old crappy electric cooktop, I regularly set off my smoke alarms, and coated most kitchen surfaces with films of grease.

I think the OP, or anyone else who installs a high-end range in a kitchen without matching venting, will quickly discover their tolerance points for for indoor HOGS, and adjust their cooking styles accordingly. Does that mean they may be "wasting" money on an appliance that might not be used to its max performance levels? That is the question each of us get to decide for ourselves. For most of us, life is a series of difficult choices among imperfect alternatives.

I just placed my order for a Ge Cafe, and think I made the best move. I have been remodeling my kitchen for the last few months and have had plenty time to deliberate on my decision. Working on professional ranges all day at work, I'm amazed at how much they bang you for the home versions. Most of the "gourmet" ovens are basic steel boxes with simple drilled burners and no features. And if you read the reviews, many of the brands still manage to have many defects, reliability issues and delayed repair times from overseas suppliers. Its crazy how people will go on and on about BTU output. Don't worry, buy some good pans and if you want them hot leave them on the burner for a minute. These ranges can all do that! With the Ge you get 5 specific functioning burners up to 20k BTUs for the gas junkies! Two convection ovens with over 6 1/2 feet of oven. Roll out racks, delayed digital timings and shutoffs. A features set that few of the others could match all for under 3,000. Grab them now, because when I started hunting for ovens they were 500 less. No this isn't the perfect oven,. sure I would have loved the Capital 48" 8 burner. But cooking doesn't pay what it used to and I think this is a great cooker for the money!

Rather than start a new thread I'm hoping to get some more input along this similar topic. We are looking for a 30 inch LP gas range. Almost pulled the trigger on the NXR when I decided to check out the comments of the hot door. When I tested my current pro-style stove (Heartland over 10 years old) for outside door temp. The handle is cool, I can put my face on the door and feel like I could have it warmer.The hottest area was 103 degrees and that was in the crevice at the top of the door. I spoke with the ADCO folks who manage the warranty service for NXR and they said NXR states that the outside oven door temp goes up to 150-160 degrees....that is too hot! We have young children in the house at times..cannot worry about the risk of burning injuries on my stove, not to mention the heat in the summer. So for this and this reason alone we are not going to buy the NXR. Everything else about it is what I want and I have read every review here on GW and elsewhere to be found spoken to service people..etc.about parts problems yadda yadda, but this is a deal breaker for me. Now we are looking at the Verona 30 inch. Not a lot of reviews. Help! cannot go higher in the price range. Suggestions? Jenn-Air ?

So do you run a home nursery and going to have small, under 5 year old children in your house for decades that are not yours? So possible lawsuit situation, in which case I would just close off the kitchen completely.

I seriously doubt there is any difference between an NXR door verse a Verona door.
Most people simply make way too big a deal about this oven door temp thing.
My guess would be like for about the past 250,000 years of human existence that if the child touches something hot they wont do it again.
Also most burns that happen in the kitchen come from hot WATER/Liquids or from an "Open" oven door not the outside of a door.
If you think you are going to child proof a kitchen you are dreaming, that would be like child proofing the middle lane of the freeway. Best thing is to keep them OUT of the kitchen altogether.
I mean even our 2 year old Chihuahua has a chair that she sits on at the edge of our kitchen so she can see everything we are doing but stay safely out our way so she doesn't get stepped on or something dropped on her etc.
Took us about 2 days to train her to go right to her chair and stay there.
Lets hope that most children are at least as intelligent as a 2 year old Chihuahua.

I was checking ours out last night again, my wife turned on the oven to 400 to preheat it and we went out to pick something up, so when we got back the oven was ready to go to bake some bread to go with the sketti.
So it was pre-heating and being used at 400 for about 2 hours.
I placed my hand on the glass and it was "warm" at best probably just over body temp so about 100, just below the glass was even cooler, less than body temp.
The only parts of the door that were remotely hot was the crack between the door and kick plate and the very top edge of the door both areas are actually hard to reach.
The handle was actually room temp at best so around 70ish degrees.

I have a feeling that ADCO states this because NXR simply says what the oven door could possibly ever get to if left on 500 or maybe broil for hours on end, it could probably reach 150 on the top edge of the door.