Return to the Appliances Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
dealer abuse of gardenweb?

Posted by kist1 (My Page) on
Fri, Sep 16, 11 at 13:26

No offense to the ubiquitous dealer on this forum--as he seems to take good care of his customers and has a loyal following--but I don't understand why a person who is a self-proclaimed "cheerleader for his company" is able to post on this forum without arousing any manner of complaint from members. Specifically, the posts which lean strongly, with complete and open bias, toward a product which his company endorses. Isn't this thinly veiled advertising?

If more dealers or manufacturers or salesmen start taking up this sort of posting and it's accepted, as this particular dealer's are, this forum is going to turn into nothing more than biased posts about the merits of one's product versus another's.

Unabashedly,
Lew


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

If other dealers post data and video test to support why their products are superior, post rational and measured statements in support of their products,not only help out their customers,but any customer of said brand they are promoting I am all for it.

Can we get a Miele dishwasher dealer guy?

And a Gaggenau ovens dealer guy?


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

Agreed. Many forums have experts in them. Some do garner business from participating, but on the same basis that someone with an off topic profession might: The forum members get to know and trust that person because of the relationship here.

The welcome professionals are the ones who participate, provide information, and behave like other forum members. This takes a certain amount of commitment. We've had some who've come in and sort of tried, but they aren't really the forum type, and they contribute too little to the ongoing discussion, and are more obviously trying to drive people to their websites or companies. So long as they are participating there's no penalty other than being ignored.

People who "drive-by" and say nothing to the point but one rather meaningless sentence, with a link to their own businesses, are the ones we complain about.

The situation you posit, of more manufacturers and dealers posting similarly useful information to the dealer you alluded to, and helping all forum members, is, as Deeageaux said, welcome! We're constantly trolling manufacturer's websites and downloads, as well as store sites, blogs, and other information sources, trying to lock down details that a manufacturer's tech rep might know off the top of his head. How great would that be?


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

I am absolutely thrilled that we have a participant on this forum that is giving quality information. I don't find it biased at all, and if you call this person on the phone will give genuine answers. I have never heard this person slam any other company or product. On the contrary, I have heard both the pros and cons of anything I inquired about. This person actually CARES.

I have been looking for a decent range for two years. I had not been enthusiastic about anything currently available. Until now.

I truly was about to buy a high end wood burning range. I kid you not.

I like seeing test data and actual photos of how a product actually works. These are not biased. I understand your concern about bias as there is plenty of that in the world. It doesn't exist in this case.

So....I am so thankful for this forum. It has helped me more than I can say. Among other things I feel I've found an excellent range. I just need to finish deciding on the features and color I want.

Sandy


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

I know what you're talking about. There are a couple of dealers/bloggers who post a response for the purpose of posting a gratuitous link to their own web site.

To them I say, offer your opinion or advice, but please do us all a favor and leave your link out of the post. It gets to the point where you lose credibility, become a nuisance, and wear out your welcome.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

As long as they identify themselves as such, and post regularly/actively, I have no problems with dealers on the forum. I do appreciate it if a refrigerator guy, for example, ventures into general refrigeration threads and doesn't just aim for the thread with his particular brand in the subject line.

One thing I don't like is when dealers come on solely for the purpose of getting defensive/giving their side of a story in a thread in which the poster is unhappy with the product or service. If you have enough time to dispute points online, you have more than enough time to make sure the customer's problem is addressed first. In those situations, I'm happy to read the dealer's point of view as long as s/he opens his post with, "we've taken care of X's problem to his/her satisfaction."


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

I'm going to agree with kist1. Cracks me up that people trot out the "Hey, you only just registered last week, you must be a shill" bullcrap yet someone who OBVIOUSLY has every financial incentive to cook up the truth is obeyed and worshiped.

Resellers are smart, and good ones are very smart. They know how to generate a following.

One of my favorite quotes sums this up for me: "In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king." Desiderius Erasmus.

-Stooxie


 o
Lies, damned lies and statistics!

I also have to respond about this test "data" being so objective, like mathematical truth.

Question: how to news papers, that supposedly report on "facts" end up with such political biases? Answer: because they only give you the facts that THEY want you to know.

Remember those lies, damned lies and statistics?

Look, I'm not saying everything a reseller here says is a lie, just agreeing with the OP that is IS rather amusing to sit back and watch the faithful testify!

-Stooxie


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

Much more value has been added by Trevor than by some of the people who complain about him.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

That is what I find laughable.

I have a problem that needs replacement of parts.

The company is SO Wonderful for replacing the part.

But the problem on the part was SO Minor,yet needed replacemnt.

Eveyone else who complains on the board about said wonderful compnay is "NOISE."


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

I think some may be missing the point here. There is a difference between a manufacturer tech posting helpful information, or even a support rep offering to address problems directly, and a dealer/reseller posting 99.7% in favor of the one product that he makes a nice living from.

How can anyone take seriously the "data" or information posted by someone when the outcome is virtually guaranteed?
It's not like such a person will just wake up one day and suddenly start thinking it was all a mistake and back someone else. Hmmm, wait a second....

I think part of the problem is that GW is such a simple website. I've always kinda wondered why this place isn't like other web forums, with topics, subforms, etc.

The answer would be to have manufacturer-specific sub forms. Then it would at least make sense that you're joining a particular crowd.

-Stooxie


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

as long as a dealer doesn't directly advertise or post a commercial link in a post, I don't see him or her championing one product over another disingenuous AS LONG AS they are basing their rec on some sort of experience AND they are telling the truth about spec, ect...

I mean aren't you (consumer) going into any dealer of anything for his/her expertise? You can spend all kinds of time here getting to know people and picking their brains with little (basically no) pressure to buy anything from anyone. You walk into a showroom and the understood quid pro quo is that if you use the salesman's time you will purchase something in return.

There is not even that here, and you don't even have to look someone in the eye and squirm when you talk to them for an hour, tell them "I'll think about it" and go order it off of big river or AJMAdison.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

It isn't difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Some people can help others directly or point out pitfalls.
Some people can provide links to difficult to find info.

Some people can tell you more about themselves in a few ill chosen words than they could ever imagine.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

I can think of more than one respected participant who represents their company line.

--

It's a potential problem that is not a problem. Life's like that. It is not a problem, but it might degenerate into one... but it isn't that, now.

What would be a problem, socially, would be a thought control situation. Self censorship. Groupthink. Whatever you call it. There might be groupthink here. I wouldn't know if I am one of the infected ones. I would never drink KoolAid and I'm known for doing what I want not what is deemed the polite thing to do. My experience with GW is that if anyone wants to resist any person's pitch they are welcome to do so. I haven't taken on that role here with respect to ovens, and I don't see the social situation as too much. People don't rake you harshly for resisting.

With respect to a refrigeration product that an identified rep promoted or defended (factually), I did resist that person, and antss followed up with more resistance. That was about a month ago. No harm done either way. We're all good.

I think it IS useful to spot shills and phoneys.

There are huge numbers of paid participants who build their profile as a bona fide forum member before they start pointing more and more in one direction. When I commented on the kitchen forum that we seemed to have had a lot of sudden (Faucet Company X) believers, the activity on those new (Faucet Company X) discussion threads dried up. It stopped them in their tracks. That was about two months ago.

Several years ago I dropped out of the world's friendliest tile forum (I had another username). That forum used numerous sneaky means to ensure that discussion threads _all_ concluded with "golly, I need the orange membrane for my shower." They did not appreciate my hounding them to be fairer to all the other shower membranes out there, so they hounded me off their site, the world's friendliest tile forum. Too much thought control. In fact, it was worse than that: I received lies and faulty advice because of my special status. To me, that is way more serious than a person with an explicit link to a product, and a respectful crowd that praises that person.

GW forums have just enough structure and not too much structure.

Hope this helps.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

So...how is the dealer's enthusiasm for his new baby any different from the Lacanche enthusiasts or the induction mavens or the Wolf whistlers or the Viking diehards who aren't put off by stories of oven door failures? Forum members give info on what they know and like. Re the tests, all kinds of forum members do similar tests at home--this dishwasher tab has this much suds and that has this much film. This much water in this kind of pot boils this quickly on this burner. Etc., etc. It's not controlled scientific experimentation, but it does show how the particular units work IRL, and is useful information.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

We get a lot more biased spin from certain appliance owners who view their ranges as penis enhancements than we do from Trevor.

I think it's STFU time on this thread.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

@ marcolo

I couldn't agree more.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

Re the tests, all kinds of forum members do similar tests at home--this dishwasher tab has this much suds and that has this much film. This much water in this kind of pot boils this quickly on this burner. Etc., etc. It's not controlled scientific experimentation, but it does show how the particular units work IRL, and is useful information.

'tis true, they aren't scientific but usually not disingenuous either.

I recall one of the dealer in question's tests. I think - but am not sure just now - that this was while he was peddling Bluestar ranges.

Among the many experiments he performed on a Wolf all-gas range, a Bluestar and a third range were two expts that were noteworthy: (1) compare boil-time performance on the power-burner, mid-burner and the small-burner and (2) store-bought cookie baking results

Regarding (1) Wolf all-gas has 4-6 identical burners that span high @16KBTU or whatever its high is down to simmer at 250-odd btu (don't recall any numbers now that I'm long done shopping). Mr. Eurostoves proceeded to execute that test setting pans of water on a Wolf burner on high for the "highest power" test(okay), set the burner on medium to compare results on the mid-burner and set it on simmer for the third. Meanwhile, on the other stoves, he collected results by setting the pans on the big, mid and small burners and setting the respective burners on their highest setting.
Not that he declared this mind you. Just said that power, medium and smallest tests produced X, Y and Z results. Someone else here pointed out that Wolf doesn't have that arrangement and that is how it was flushed out that this is how this test was conducted - because the Wolf AG rather uncooperatively has identical burners. But that didn't stop Mr. Trevor from performing the test!

Now my stovetop has a big, mid and small burner - I know from experience that my simmer burner's high power output is a whole heck of a lot more energy than its simmer setting output. But that is what the fine gent in question proceeded to consider a reasonable "side-by-side" comparison.

Does this show either intelligence or a lack of bias? I'd say not a whit.

(2) Another of his experiments involved cookie making. Package on the box said bake at "350F for 12minutes" or something like that.

So he did. Then he proceeded to announce that all units had trays of cookies that were fairly uniform but that the Wolf's tray was uniformly overdone by several seconds. Ergo not a good oven compared to the bluestar and whatever else he was onto by that point in time. Any bakers in the house want to explain oven use? Seemed to me that his cookies were done about 15 seconds sooner ;-)

Oh I don't mind Trevor. His experiments - or the way he conducts them - range like some of his tests do - wonderful to mediocre to asinine. However, I would never call his data interpretation of the results he collects as anything short of biased. It is in the raw data that he's presented that I think Trevor offers the most value. He isn't smart but he isn't harmful and even does some good by some of his customers.

Trevor does remind me of a synthetic material (corian etc.) counter salesman that stalked about here some time back. He swore up and down that granites and other natural stones were radio-active and the natural-stone industry was part of a vast conspiracy to hush-up that fact.

Anyhow, I don't have a huge opinion on Trevor's presence but I did wish to counter the assertion that Trevor is unbiased and agenda-free. That he ain't.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

I think (hope) that you are under estimating the intelligence of folks who are looking for information about appliances on this board. Most folks here are fairly educated and affluent. You don't accumulate the wealth necessary to be considering 5K+ appliances by being gullible and using only single source information to base your decisions around. If anyone here has been swayed to purchase a product based solely on the fact that a certain person says it's great, then they probably have other issues in their life with spending their money foolishly. Granted, advertising firms have made a fortune by counting on foolish behavior from consumers, so I may be being optimistic about the ability for critical thinking that education is supposed to impart.

Anyone remember the TMIO shill? Now, that was a one note closed eared laughable pest.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

LOL!! Mindstorm, I didn't mean unbiased. I just meant the same kind of bias a lot of members have. :) That Wolf burner thing is really off, though. Talking about comparing apples to orangutans!


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

We get a lot more biased spin from certain appliance owners who view their ranges as penis enhancements than we do from Trevor.

And those owners can be tame in comparison to some who don't even own the appliances they champion.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

Everything Marcolo said.

Trevor has a very high signal/noise ratio, and he's up-front about his interests.

He's not Consumer Reports, and I wouldn't expect him to post long reflective essays about the drawbacks of the products he sells -- that's why you read a range of views.

The other benefit to having merchants and manufacturers present on boards like this is that they're more exposed to, and hence more responsive to, criticism -- they have a reputation to protect. It's unlikely that anyone with any power at, say, GE is following this board. With Capital, the lines of communication are clearly shorter.

And good grief, yes, consumers ... one of the things that weirds me out about this board is the pervasive use of the word "love" for appliances. Loving a person I understand, even a pet. But a machine? And love means at least a partial suspension of critical faculties, no? I'd much rather talk to a merchant -- they'll try and make a sale, but there's way less emotional baggage.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

I looooove my Bluestar :)


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

You don't accumulate the wealth necessary to be considering 5K+ appliances by being gullible and using only single source information to base your decisions around.

One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. If I had a nickel for every doctor I've met who knew zilch about anything outside of medicine I'd be wealthy myself.

I've noticed in the "Capitol Oven DOA" thread that this board is already starting the tar-and-feather process for Capital. Didn't take long, did it?! I actually feel sorry for Capital, the fickle masses they have to deal with.

People here should be a little more aware of how vendor/reseller relationships should work and what constitutes a healthy channel (business speak for the partner/reseller network). Since this topic seems to have focused on one in particular, people should be a bit more objective with the facts. The fact is, this reseller sells people on whatever he needs to to make money-- which is fair! One relationship went south. The next one is already looking strained. This is very predictable for many reasons IF you understand something about reseller channels.

What will the next product be?

Hence I say again: there is a big difference between the manufacturer posting details and info and a reseller posting information that is obviously going to net him a payout, no matter how "objective" you think that may be! Everyone has a right to make a living but one should understand people's motivations.

-Stooxie


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

@stooxie: "What will the next product be?"

Yes, I find this kind of humerous. I happen to own Viking appliances, and they work well for me. I don't really care what anyone else thinks of them, but I can clearly see the 'hatred' expressed - by people who don't even own them - they have arrived at their opinions from reading other people's posts :) Thus their opinion is worth more? More than someone who sells the stuff? It seems to be their job to 'warn' others?


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

This thread smacks of an elementary school playground spat.

The insecurities reflected here are utterly absurd.

In my time here, by any objective measure, i've seen Trevor lend assistance (real, tangible assistance) to more people on here than anyone else.

Enough said.

BFF out!


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

ROTFL!! Now we're hating on everybody? This is a public, online forum. There are a whole range of opinions and ways of expressing them. They're just opinions. So long as they're expressed politely, why censor them? Why does your opinion of someone else's opinion outweigh the other person's opinion in the first place?

I think we've settled that no matter your opinion of Trevor, many people welcome his input and want him to participate here. It's obvious that the monitors don't think he's a problem. If you're so easily led that you can't skip the posts that aren't to your liking you really shouldn't be participating in this kind of discussion. If you think the posters who receive replies from people you don't trust are being led, you can always warn them (politely). If you want to control the discourse, get a blog. Google and Wordpress give them away for free.

(This is just an opinion. I'm not trying to control the discourse.)


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

I'm really shocked at people attacking Trevor. I've been on this forum for quite a while now and I've always found Trevor to be helpful, knowledgeable, and one of the most useful contributors on this forum. He even goes out of his way to help people who bought their appliances from other retailers.

Lately, this forum has changed character and there seems to be a lot more vitriol and personal attacks - see the thread on "Capital Wall oven DOA". That's really disappointing to me. I finished my remodel nearly 10 years ago and stayed on this forum because I've learned a lot about new appliances (I decided to buy a Breville toaster oven last year based on comments on this forum) and I enjoy helping people with their appliance choices and issues. I've had disagreements with people in the past, but they've always been civil. Recently this hasn't been the case.

p.s. So Trevor, when can I expect delivery of the free CC range you promised me for posting this?

For the many humor-impaired members of this forum, I'M KIDDING!!!!


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

kist1 what range do you own and what has been your experiences with it? Why did you choose it? What has been your experiences with other brands in your past? Which stove manufacturer do you currently work for? Viking? Whirltag/Jennair/Kitchenaide? I'm assuming that you are a counter shill to Capital, because frankly, out of the 12 threads that you've contributed to, I can't find but about 3 comments where you provided actual useful information to the poster. Most posts have been to bump up a negative Capital thread, or otherwise seem to want to put a negative slant onto Capital. You've never posted in any of the other forums here, just the Appliance Forum. And with a seeming bias. So, if a very informative (and humanly biased, as we all are) forum member is to be publicly called out for "abuse", it's only fair that you disclose your own identity and agenda. Otherwise, it's just sour grapes that Capital seems to have been a success.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

I think Trevor has been a pretty valuable contributor here. He always seems careful to avoid turning his posts into direct advertisements for Eurostoves and instead leads by example by running interference for people, many of whom are not even his customers. It is plain that he takes a genuine interest in the forum and the posters here. Is he partisan towards the manufacturer that supports him? As opposed to the manufacturer that told him to pack sand? Yeah, I think he is. Big deal. We are all grownups and we can do our own research. At least Trevor honestly states that he is a dealer and does not masquerade as a user, unlike some of the posters we have had.

And mindstorm, the burner tests that involve the Wolf burner were tests of the RANGE'S capabilities, not the burners. When the range you buy has different burners, then you can select the one that's most appropriate for the task. If the test is, which range is least likely to scorch the pudding, you will pick the lowest burner possible. So on the ranges that have simmer burners, you select those. If the range doesn't have a simmer burner, because they are all the same, then you HAVE to use the big burner, because that is all it has. Just because it is a Wolf does not mean that it does not have to be able to simmer. The Wolf burners are designed to do the job of both, so that's how they got tested. If Wolf made a range with a simmer burner, then that is what would have been used.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

And mindstorm, the burner tests that involve the Wolf burner were tests of the RANGE'S capabilities, not the burners.

Eh????

If the test is, which range is least likely to scorch the pudding, you will pick the lowest burner possible. So on the ranges that have simmer burners, you select those. If the range doesn't have a simmer burner, because they are all the same, then you HAVE to use the big burner, because that is all it has.

Actually, the test objective ostensibly was: how quickly can you boil water on a power burner, how quickly can you boil water on the medium burner and how quickly can you boil water on the simmer burner.

On the ranges with different burners, the operation performed was to pick the power, medium and simmer burners and crank 'em up to their highest. The test therefore ran like so : compare boil-water times for BS and alt-Range on the simmer-burner set on its highest power with a Wolf burner set on simmer.
(For completeness, rest of this same test was: compare boil times for BS and Range-2 with a Wolf all set at their highest on the largest burners; finally compare boil water times for BS and Range-2 set on the medium-burners set on High and Wolf burner set on medium).

The don't scorch pudding test (i.e. the simmer test) was a different one altogether and unrelated to the above.

Still find a way for the execution to parse? I'm still scratching the head on that one.

As a vendor who ostensibly sells several brands in his shop, it is notable that when Trevor shows up to flap his wings it is about Capital (current) or Bluestar (past tense) or to spout some dogma about how anything else will leaving you eating our heart out. I've *never* seen him provide information when there are questions about Leibherr or about Aga, or about any of the other myriad products and brands he sells. Which is why it is so droll that so many on this site turn themselves into every colour of pretzel to explain how unbiased he is when, empirically, he is anything but!

Oh it all makes for grand television and is unparalleled for sheer entertainment value; but personally I've learnt to regard any assertion Trev has to make as dubious and best treated to a good run-through with the beady eye to see where he's laid the egg.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

Full disclosure...I'm a dealer.

I've made it a point in the past not to post much on here bc I didn't think consumers really wanted to hear from dealers.

I figured people were here to 1) trade war stories about their shopping experiences 2) get feedback from others who have already purchased the product they are interested in.

However I'm going to post more bc I am seeing first-hand (both on this forum and on the dealership floor/phones) that consumers seem to be increasingly confused, be it from the increasing choices or from all of the noise on the web.
So I think there is room for dealers to be here, as long as they create value by informing and NOT selling.

appliancemonkey


 o
hasty poster

Argh! Wish I could delete the above post. Should've checked my email before I posted. Above is probably just adding fat to a fire that was wanting to die out of its own accord. Grrr.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

So I think there is room for dealers to be here, as long as they create value by informing and NOT selling.

Appliancemonkey, you are absolutely right. Information is always welcome.

Mindstorm, you know I wasn't trying to say Trevor was unbiased. I only said he was no more biased than the rest of us. While I think you, yourself, can be more objective in many ways, perhaps your bias is toward the well engineered? (Whereas pretty is much more important to many). I believe that the particular test you were talking about is gone, and, though I think you're right about not being able to compare the ranges in the test, I do think the basic data could be useful. That is, for someone shopping, knowing how long it takes to boil on medium on the Wolf could have been useful.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

Appliancemonkey: agreed, but you might consider emerging from anonymity to play that role. Part of what makes folks comfortable with TL is we know who he is; you can call him up, visit him, check out his website.

Solid informative posts about appliance capabilities and repair histories are really useful. So are detailed photographs.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

Mindstorm, I thought you were talking about the simmer tests. I never saw the one where they were testing which simmer burner could boil fastest!

Not sure what value that would add! LOL!

Anyway, I know Trevor has a predilection towards his Culinarians, but I do not feel that that enthusiasm is misplaced. It is a primo range. I also know the dude picks up the phone and tries to help when asked, and I personally appreciate it. Not to mention the fact that I have spoken with him several times and think he's a nice guy. Personally, I am not sure what the deal is with Trevor and some people, but I simply have no problem looking past any person's brand fervor so long as they are nice about it.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

Another pretty easy solution to all this is having signatures in the posts. A reseller or manufacturer could then easily display the fact in their signature.

Again, this board is so simplistic that it makes it super easy for people to go under the radar. Even though one may technically never lie, picking and choosing one's facts is just as effective at fabricating the "truth."

At least if resellers/manufacturers were required to say as much in a signature it would be immediately clear as to what may be motivating the advice, sound as it may be.

-Stooxie


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

Everyone has a different dream about finetuning a forum to perfection. My dream is not stooxie's. I hate signatures and profiles.

i like the crowd calling a phish a phish. To make crowd-speak-up more palatable, more diplomatic and more reliable, a new function could be a tool that people could use, on the side. On the side, so it doesn't become a thread highjack.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

Is this not-so-veiled attempt to crucify Trevor Lawson still alive? I was hoping this thread would focus on the real shills who crap on this forum.

Having been to Trevor's store and browsed his wears, I too found it peculiar that he was so passionate about ranges yet when it came to fridges and other appliances he was rather low key. I mean, sure, there are posts where he recommends Liebherr, but certainly not to the same extent. Then again, whether gas or electric, the range/cooktop is the star of the kitchen, so the volume shouldn't be surprising.

After speaking to him it became evident that passion is what drives Trevor. Maybe it is that guy-thing about cooking with fire or whatever. But it became evident to me that when Trevor posts, part him is not being a salesman. You get the sense that there really is some enthusiasm. It's really no different than any of the BBQ, knife, car, or watch forums I have visited. Those are also full of vendors and enthusiasts alike. But in each instance, many of the respected vendors were acting more as enthusiasts than as salespeople. They didn't pimp themselves, because they didn't need to. The sales they generated from their participation were more like bonuses. Occasionally, with the blessing of site administrators, some of these vendors offered "group-buy" opportunities to forum members. But one thing is certain, no one ever complained about those buying opportunities. Well, maybe a sore-loser vendor or two.

In this forum, Trevor seems to be one of those vendors driven in part by the enthusiast in him. He's not a scientist by any means. But when he does his tests, he presents them, as is, flaws and all. In the end, it's up to us to do with the results what we want.

Like him or not, I would rather see more vendors participate in this forum like him than not.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

Whether it's a forum rule or not, dealers *are* expected to identify themselves here. That's been the etiquette ever since I started reading gw. Do we need to institute more rules to force people to post signatures that could be easily faked? Does that really gain anything?

I personally think the "lack" of features in garden web is good. It promotes a focus on the discussion rather than who can put up the most interesting avatars or who has the most posting points. Gardenweb is similar to the old usenet days where the community defined and policed their own standards of behavior (netiquette). If you look, there are very few spammers here because their posts are immediately replied to once and then just slide into oblivion. Most dealers that hide there identity are usually called out and either go away or continue to participate (usually sporadically) in the open.

Trevor has never hid his identity nor his profession. Anyone who is here for any length of time knows that Trevor = Eurostoves. AFAIK, he hasn't broken any forum rules and regularly contributes useful information. I'm honestly not sure what he has done that even comes close to abuse. To the OP, long time contributors here don't "rise up" against Trevor because he has earned our respect one person at a time. He works hard to earn that respect and deserves it IMHO. He has help me and many others, whom were not even his customers, with issues our own dealers and the manufacturer ignored. I would welcome with open arms any other dealer who wants to step up into those shoes.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

Interesting topic and one I've often thought about, initially, I too was puzzled by the near cult following of a particular open burner range new to the market with no proven credentials.

At first, all it seemed to have going for it was vaporware, of some future promised greatness, and being enthusuastically backed by a very charismatic New England appliance dealer recently scorned by said newcomers chief competition.

Having a highly suspicious nature, this didn't seem acceptable behavior to me at first. Despite eventually coming to view this dealers efforts and participation in many conversations as generally seeming helpful. His adroit skill in this effort left me completely confused and bewildered to his motivations -- whether altruistic, completely self-serving, or somewhere in the middle. I finally decided I was fine with whatever they were. He needs to feed his family and pay his mortgage just like everyone else.

Surprisingly, I then started to wonder why there weren't similarly skilled sales people to represent the deserving competition. Also, as all this played out, I have to admit that I was rightly or wrongly completely turned against this new to the market product. Now I'm left to sort out this newly formed bias -- it's strange and a little scary how easily they can develop.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

^^forgive the spelling errors.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

jddar,

I think you summarized the real point of this thread very nicely. What would this place be like with a dozen resellers all peddling whatever product gets them the best return? Like overpriced ballpark vendors:

"DCS!! Getchya DCS right heeeya! Fi dollas!" (in my best Fenway accent)
"Hot WOLF, two for a dollar, come on now! You want one? Yeah, how many?"

The good news, that even today's newest threads have shown, is that the truth does come out in the end.

This IS a valid topic if we can just get away from the obvious side show.

-Stooxie


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

Differing opinions are always interesting, but this thread is getting a nasty tone to it.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

All gardenweb is a massive conspiracy to plant disturbing thoughts in your mind. Or is it my mind? Are any of these people real? Are you real? What is real?


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

ha, good humor, colin3

-

in my earlier post I pointed out that some forums are totally oriented to promoting a specific kind of solution. Schluter is a good company. They make Kerdi and Ditra, and hundreds of profile strips for tile laying. The marketing people in charge of their Kerdi and Ditra products managed to get a World Famous World's Friendliest Tile Advice discussion forum web site to promote these two products to the detriment of all other competitors' products. The forum was not neutral in any way.

--

there is another problem, which is serious and always recurring...

it's that any small number of coordinated people (or sockpuppets)
can influence the flow of thought.

they create discussion threads that conclude with the inevitable conclusion.

(the conclusion being a product they are paid to push gets chosen above all others).

they pose as homeowners needing to know things.

but, i find it fishy that they have no timidity or uncertainty as usual.

in recent months the kitchen forum has been flooded with new profiles, and (no surprise) they all agree on certain products.

the main idea behind this kind of paid+anonymous promoting is that
Any discussion is better than none.
AND if product criticism happens, it can be fielded or wiped off as "not compelling".
Then, it just so happens that the thread concludes with the inevitable conclusion...
ta da, I'm going to go with Product X, the one that pays my wages (but nobody can confirm it.)

internet discussion forums are gonna go downhill. It's not a pleasure to write responses to coordinated dummies who are paid by some anonymous agency working for some marketing department of a Name-Withheld-to-Keep-Advantage Manufacturer.

--- Far far in the future we will have a secure means to verify some aspect behind a profile while protecting the person from cyberstalking and abuse. --- Ultimately something midway between a Facebook and a Gardenweb.

my prediction.

i'll call it leverage.
The More Your Real Profile Exists, the more it can be leveraged in a screened way.
The screening mechanism is the new thing.

--


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

A short story behind my initial post.

A few years ago I purchased a machine, which cost a goodly sum of money, for the company I worked for. We looked at 6 different manufacturers. The various dealers swore up and down that their product was the best of all of them, and for some reason, went out of their way to disparage all the other companies' machines and service. They all gave their reasons why we should buy their machine. We decided on a machine and purchased it.

I left that company about a year later. The guy we bought the machine from also left his. How do I know this? I was purchasing the same sort of machine for my new company. Same guy came in (he didn't remember me) representing a different company and proceeded to lay out the same facts and comparisons as the first time we met when he was representing the company that, was now, his direct competitor. As if on queue, he then systematically disparaged all the other companies' machines and service, including the one he sold my old company two years prior.

For what it's worth.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

so what; normal behavior for humankind.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

It boils down to while it's great to have all the information presented, you have to sit back and make a final judgement for yourself. As long as a dealer isn't out and out lying, they will naturally be enamored with what they believe is the best at that time.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

Lew, I hope you've had your questions answered and understand why "the ubiquitous dealer on this forum" is very different than your experience. Hopefully, you also had the opportunity to search around the forum and read the posts by this dealer. The key difference is that Trevor doesn't bash BS. Judging by his posts he still thinks it's a great range. Having spoken to him face-to-face, I get the feeling that, if he could, he'd still sell both ranges. But the BS distributor pulled the line from him for whatever reason. So now he just pitches one great range instead of two.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

In case anyone is interested Trevor is now selling both CC and BS.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

As the English are wont to say, "very interesting. Indeed."


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

Lew: why are you so hostile??? You've just never explained this. Others on this forum have postulated as to why, sometimes offlist to me, even. I just have a hard time believing or understanding anything but what a person writes. I'm willing to believe what you write. I would like to hear more from you about why you are so suspicious and negative; it reflects very badly on you when you won't respond more fully or honestly. Bias Happens. Any scientist or student, really, knows this, should know this, should expect it. To some of us, life is constructed around a never-ending search to whittle bias away, but that is an explicit acknowledgement of its existence. Always. But you don't write much, and you don't write fully and you don't answer direct questions. It is really upsetting, really. What kind of a troll or shill or dishonest person are you? None of the above? Then please disclose a little bit more....

Per LWO more than a half-year ago: "kist1 what range do you own and what has been your experiences with it? Why did you choose it? What has been your experiences with other brands in your past? Which stove manufacturer do you currently work for? Viking? Whirltag/Jennair/Kitchenaide? I'm assuming that you are a counter shill to Capital, because frankly, out of the 12 threads that you've contributed to, I can't find but about 3 comments where you provided actual useful information to the poster. Most posts have been to bump up a negative Capital thread, or otherwise seem to want to put a negative slant onto Capital. You've never posted in any of the other forums here, just the Appliance Forum. And with a seeming bias. So, if a very informative (and humanly biased, as we all are) forum member is to be publicly called out for "abuse", it's only fair that you disclose your own identity and agenda. Otherwise, it's just sour grapes that Capital seems to have been a success."

There have been an impressive number of spot-on posts to this thread above. I've run out of memory for how many "what xyz or pqr said" responses I'd like to make. All of which speak to the oft-summarized point that posters at least here (can't speak to readers only) really aren't so simplistic to swallow whole-hog much of what gets claimed and posted. This is one data point filled with individuals contributing anecdotal experiences. We get it.

So .... where do you fit in? I've asked elsewhere, repeatedly of you before to deafening silence: do you work for a relevant enterprise? What is your profession please? From whence derives so much of your ire?


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

Actually I found it interesting, too. Just unfortunate that this thread was chosen to be resurrected for purposes of making the announcement. Anyway if it is in fact true, I'm happy for Trevor. He's said for a long time he'd like to sell both BS and CC.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

It is true. I emailed him yesterday and he confirmed it.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

My apologies. I didn't think about the unpleasantness of resurrecting a controversial thread. The thread came up in a search for other information and I saw mention of the fact that Trevor had dropped the BS line and some people seemed to want to see him selling both. I was just trying to provide helpful information. In retrospect, I guess I should have started a new thread. Mea culpa.


 o
RE: dealer abuse of gardenweb?

I know some of the reps follow GW and try to resolve problems identified.
I think it is important that full disclosure is made - I believe there are requirements on GW


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Appliances Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Please review our Rules of Play before posting.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here