Return to the Appliances Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

Posted by Cavimum (My Page) on
Sat, Sep 15, 12 at 12:54

In shopping around for a new DW for our kitchen renovation, I see the KA dishwashers we're looking at include a sample Affresh Dishwasher & Disposal Cleaner. For odors. Seriously? This is a new one on me, as I've never had a DW odor in 40 years.

Sounds like front-load washing machine maintenance. Is this really necessary with the new dishwashers?? Or just KAs? Your thoughts on this?


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

I doubt it's necessary at all. Just a ploy to get new DW owners to think they need to buy it since they were given a sample with their new DW. Finish is putting samples of their detergent in KAs and maybe other brands and I bet their sales have risen dramatically.


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

I doubt it's necessary at all. Just a ploy to get new DW owners to think they need to buy it since they were given a sample with their new DW. Finish is putting samples of their detergent in KAs and maybe other brands and I bet their sales have risen dramatically.


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

Probably just a marketing ploy. Now if it were a Bosch DW...


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

I haven't had any stink problems with my KA that is 3 (or 4) years old. It's my all time favorite appliance EVER :)


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

One of the problems we are seeing in the service business is that the new detergents, after the removal of the Phosphates a couple years ago, don't do a very good job of keeping calcium, lime and minerals in solution and they end up getting deposited in the dishwashers. The porous nature of these deposits can and do hold smells.

Using citric acid, which is what the dishwasher cleaners are made of will strip out the deposits and keep a dishwasher runing a peak performance and odor free.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cleaning a dishwasher


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

@jakvis - very interesting about the minerals and odors. I wonder if that is why some Bosch owners have trouble and others do not. I backed off choosing Bosch after reading about all the unresolved Bosch odor problems here at GW.


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

@Cavimum, Bosch is not unique to "Stinky Dishwasher Syndrome" This is why you are seeing manufactures like W/P offering Affresh, and companies like Finish offering Dishwasher cleaners and deodorizers.
My techs and I are trying to re-educate dishwasher users to change the habits that we preached for over 50 years. Now days with the enzyme detergents you do not want your water to not be as we said in the past "The Hotter The Better" The enzymes start dying off at temperatures as low as 130F. So we (servicers in the know)are telling customers that have dishwashers that do a good job of heating their own water to not run the hot water at the sink before starting the dishwasher in order to let the enzymes to start working at a lower temperature and have the maximum amount of time to do their job before the water gets to hot for them.

I recommend for anyone having odor or washing issues to contact the 800 number on your detergent box and talk to them about recomendations for cleaning and odor. Like I said things have changed and the old way no longer works.


 o
questions for @jakvis

Now days with the enzyme detergents you do not want your water to not be as we said in the past "The Hotter The Better"

@jakvis - Really? I never knew that, and how is the general public to know?

I always prime the HOT water line for our 12 y/o Whirlpool-made Kenmore Elite dishwasher. No problems so far, even with the new detergents (finish powerball tabs) but we'll be replacing it when we do the kitchen remodel in a month.

I remember my father-in-law set his hot water heater back to something like 100F. He thought he was just brilliant at saving energy, and his dishes, glasses, and flatware were all filthy. I hand-washed everything before I used it.

I think our hot water heater is set around 130F.
-- Should I set it back to 120F for the new dishwasher?
Our FL washing machine has an internal heater, so that is covered.
-- What is the optimal DW temperature now?

Many thanks.


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

@Cavimum The reason I know is I take the service business seriously. I contact detergent manufacturers to find out why a dishwasher that works mechanically perfect does not clean dishes. If you go back in time in The Garden Web you will see that I was one of the first to report about the removal of phosphates from dishwashing detergents. This was because I contacted one of the detergent manufacturers who I had dealt with in the past and found out about the change. They also sent me charts showing where the enzyme agents peaked and then where the bleaching agents kicked in.
The basics are the enzymes peak at 127F and start losing effectiveness as the water temp continues higher. The bleaching agents start kicking in around 133F and work harder as the temp rises but the bleach also kills off the enzymes.
The enzymes are for the proteins and the bleach is for the stains.

I see you use the Finish power balls which I also recommend. the only thing I found that works better is Quantum and I think it's because it has an additional shine agent.

Your KitchenAid does a OK job in heating the water and the water temp will always drop 10-15F when it enters the tank. I think you want to have the enzymes working for at least 10-15 minutes before the temp gets too hot.

But call your detergent 800 number to get more information


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

@jakvis - Wow, very interesting information and I appreciate you sharing it. I am definitely going to check into the water temp thing.

The new DW choice is between KA and Kenmore, both made by Whirlpool. Kenmore is noticeably cheaper (current sale online) with same features. Price will win out, unless there is a quality difference I encounter.


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

How does anyone enjoy a nice HOT bath with water heaters set so low? Our is set at 145. My dishes always come out sparkling clean with my KUDE60 and I primed the hot water first. Don't know if I have to or not. I didn't start doing it (didn't know to) until my current dw. I'm willing to test the theory tho.


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

I have not enjoyed a hot bath for more than two years. I have two young children, and, as such, a hot water heater should never be set as high as Monica's.

Jakvis--I appreciate all the info you've shared on this thread. My three year old Kenmore doesn't clean well. My glasses come out with baked on grimy film and nastiness, and I'm embarrassed to serve beverages to guests. And if the glasses are gross, then I know the other items in the DW must also be gross. I just can't see it as easily. When I get the chance, I'm going to investigate further. Thanks!


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

Monica, you bathe in 145F water? Do tell!

My water heater is set at 102F and showers are quite comfortable, even too warm at times when I'm hot as h3ll from yard work in the summer, LOL.


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

I have mine set around 125* so that the temperature at the kitchen sink is 120*. (heat losses from water lines running in the slab under the house.)


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

dadoes, Surely you're not serious. I guess you're the only person I've ever known of to use straight hot water when running their bath water :)


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

I know many people who set their tanks for a lower temperature and then shower by only turning on the hot. Saves having to fiddle around to find just the right temp.


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

Yes, I am quite serious. I have a tankless water heater. Most efficient use of them is to set the desired temperature and run only the hot water tap when heated water is needed.

DishDrawers *always* heat the water internally so no need to run a high input temp there. The lower input temp facilitates enzyme action and slightly longer cycle time for the heating.

I raise the temp temporarily as needed for laundry. The water heater is in a broom closet in my utility room, so access is a few steps from the washer. I can set any temp from 50F to 140F.


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

Well I, like most people in the US, don't have a tankless hw heater so I run my bath water the old fashion way...a mixture of hot and cold :)

breezygirl, I'd rather fiddle around with the hot and cold taps (really, it only takes a couple of seconds once you've used the faucet more than twice) than to turn off the breaker to the hw heater, find a screw driver and flashlight, remove the plate on the tank, and turn the dial, put the plate back on and go back to the breaker box to turn the breaker back on.
Gee whiz!


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

I'll have to find out if which-ever DW I buy has an internal water heater. Our water heater looks like it is already set at the lowest level, but I'll search out the owners' manual (I keep those) and make sure. The tap HOT is fairly hot.

We can save some $ if it can go lower, provided the new DW has the internal heater. If and when we ever have grandkids, it could avoid a hot water burn. Lots of hotels we've stayed at seem to have the HOT water set quite low, probably for that very reason.

We've always had gas water heaters and the thermostat is always on the outside, at the bottom. Very easy, especially when it's time to drain the WH for routine maintenance.


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

@ breezygirl,
If your D/W is as bad as you state, first run a dishwasher cleaner such as Dishwasher Magic (Citric Acid) you may want to do this twice back to back. If you aren't already using Finish Power Balls start using them after you cleaned the dishwasher. You may want to try the Quantum to see if you like it. (sorry for sounding like a commercial but these products work!)
Don't run your hot water at the sink before starting your d/w and see if your results are better. Depending on which manufacturer made your Kenmore will depend on how fast and good your water heats. You may find the need to maybe run the hot water a little first but that's not likely. Also as I've said before, call the detergent manufacturer and ask for their suggustions. If you call Finish I think they send you coupons for their product. Cascade has also done this in the past.
Good Luck & Good Washing.
J


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

Jakvis-- Thanks for your tips. I hadn't heard of a DW cleaner until this thread. I'll look for it at the grocery next trip. I do use Finish Powerball tabs and Finish Jet Dry already. I only recently read here that some people run hot water before starting the DW so I've never done that.

Hot water comes from an on demand system. Current water temp is set at 120, but I've experimented with higher and lower trying to see if that made a difference. Nada.

The unit seemed to work much better during the 15 months or so we used it before we reno'd the whole house. It sat in our garage during that time. We've switched plumbers a couple of times over the past few years and didn't notice until a couple of weeks ago that the new plumber hooked the DW up to the cold water. Is this normal? I have no idea how it was pre-reno and can't find the manual in the unpacked boxes.

The other thing that's different is that during the reno I stopped pre-washing the dishes before putting them in the DW in our temporary housing. The only issues with the really cheap DW at that house were that food pieces would get dried on bowls or plates and my pans came out pretty dirty (I did go back to scrubbing those first). The glasses, however, didn't have that grimy, greasy look and feel.

I plan to replace the unit next summer both for this issue and for fewer decibels. I run the DW at least once a day and am sensitive to extraneous noises. I'm looking at KA or Miele. Bosch is out as I'm boycotting their parent company over it's treatment of Julia Child's image and her foundation.

Thanks again for all of the great advice! And to the OP- - sorry to hijack!


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

breezygirl - what brand of DW do you have? Most DWs are hooked up to the hot water. Some people hook up their Miele DWs to the cold water so that the china/crystal cycle won't be too hot. It's possible that your DW isn't heating the cold water hot enough which is why you're having problems.


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

Weissman--that's what I suspected when I discovered the cold water hookup. I have a 3.5 yr old Kenmore. Mod 13843K601. Type 575-0.


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

I guess I missed a couple of numbers in the model. The first three numbers are 665.


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

BreezyGirl, the leading 665 indicates your Kenmore was manufactured by Whirlpool ... so it's a Whirlpool/KitchenAid/Kenmore unit.

If connected to cold water, then of course your water heater setting is irrelevant. These units are intended to run on a hot water supply (120F recommended minimum). The user guide indicates that some cycles (possibly not all) delay the wash and rinse as needed to reach the target temperature, so running on a cold connection theoretically should work, if an assured-temp cycle is used.


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

I finally found the manual online. It clearly states a hot water line hook up. My unit does not have an "assured temp cycle." It does have a Smart Wash button, which I've never used.

The DW has been working improperly for 10 months. We only discovered the cold water hookup about 2 weeks ago.

I just left a message with my plumber concerning what appears to be the cold water hook up. I sure hope DH is right that it actually is hooked up to the cold. I have no idea what all those various tubes and cords under the sink mean so I can't verify, and DH is out of town for the next 5 days. Anyway, hopefully the plumber can correct this, and my DW woes will be over! Thank you all for the help!


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

Assured temp is not a specific cycle description. I just used it as a general term.

I downloaded the instruction manual (assuming it's the correct version). SmartWash, Pots Pans, Normal, and Light Wash state specific temperatures so one could assume those are delayed accordingly.

High Temp option raises the main wash to 145F on SmartWash, Pots Pans, and Normal, so that should be assured.

Sani Rinse raises the final rinse to "approximately" 155F, also on SmartWash, Pots Pans, and Normal. The reference "approximately" indicates to me that heating is limited by time and may not necessarily reach the target.


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

Sounds like the correct manual. I've never used the Sani Wash either.

My plumber asked me to text him pics of the lines under the sink. Based on the pics, he said the DW is hooked up to the hot water line so that's not the problem.

The manual states to run the hot water before starting DW. It also mentions to run white vinegar through the unit to clean.

So I guess the next steps for me are:

1. Run a cleaner through the machine
2. Try a different detergent. Quantum?

Really dumb question alert: with either the cleaners mentioned on this thread or with the white vinegar method from my manual, do I run with or without dishes?

Again, I *really* appreciate the help!


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

Vinegar without dishes. The trick is to load the vinegar in during the main wash period, which is (presumably) the longest phase. If the vinegar is added at the start and the cycle begins with a short prewash (or prerinse), it'll spray around for a few mins then drain away and there'll be none for the remainder of the cycle.

A possible way to determine when to add it is listen for the first fill, some spray time and a drain, then open the door and add it when the next fill begins. However, that presumes there's only one prewash/rinse period.

There's a commercial dishwasher cleaning product, marketed under one of the common brand names (JetDry or Finish). A bottle of either acetic acid (vinegar) or citric acid solution, with a wax seal that melts to release the fluid when the water gets hot enough, which should be in the main wash period.


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

@breezygirl - Once the dishwasher has filled at the beginning of a cycle, open it up and feel the water temp. Carefully. You'll know immediately if it is HOT or COLD fill.

Our 12 y/o Kenmore Elite model 665.-------- has a short pre-wash/pre-rinse that @dadoes mentions. Yours probably does, too, if there are two soap cups (one exposed and one with the door that opens.)


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

Breezy, as already pointed out if you are using a Whirlpool built washer you need to be hooked to the hot water line.
Real easy to check.
Run the hot water at the sink until real hot.
Start the dishwasher.
Open the cabinet under your sink and touch the water line going to the dishwasher. It should feel hot or at least very warm as the dishwasher is filling.


 o
RE: KA dishwashers - Affresh cleaner... why?

Another way to determine when to add citric acid it to listen for the detergent dispenser to open. this only happens during the main wash. Or open the door ten to twenty minutes into the cycle and see whether the dispenser has opened. To clean the dishwasher, use the Pot & Pans cycle with High Temp and Sani Rinse. TurboZone if you want to - certainly won't do any harm.

And, my suggestion, try other cycles and options. I just got a Bosch and have tried every setting and cycle so far, although I tend to stick to the sensor (your Smart Wash) cycle as it adjusts everything by itself.

Alex


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Appliances Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here