pazul: I honestly do not know the temp of my bs door. I do have an IR therm so I should stop being so lazy and take a temp. (The handle never gets hot btw). I have heard however that you will not get an accurate reading on stainless steel. I also may not be able to do so for a couple of weeks as I may not be doing any cooking with my ovens for a bit.

My bs is an old version. It is about 4.5 years old now and the bottom of the door and the kick plate underneath the door do get hot. I have heard reports of the newer ones (v1 models) being a bit better in this regard but not class leading for sure. I think it is a compromise between oven capacity and insulation. As I mentioned I have not taken the temp but if the oven has been on high heat (say over 400) for an extended period it gets hot enough where I wouldn't keep my hand on it for more than a half second or so. I don't have kids to worry about, but I do have 2 cats that are the world to me and they have never burnt their nose being nosey :) I can not see UL or CSA allowing the exterior to be so hot that one would get severe burns with a casual touch. Hopefully someone can chime in with an AR performer with some insight to oven door temp.

tyguy's description of the Blue Star --- "hot enough where I wouldn't keep my hand on it for more than a half second or so" --- pretty much captures what I felt with my NXR.

I'm hoping an IR thermometer might give me a better read. I assumed that it would read off SS surfaces because I'd seen Alton Brown use one on pans in his tv show. I guess I better read the instructions, hunh?

Or, as Red Green once said: "Reading the instructions may be the last resort, but its like a crib sheet. It's not like a guy is asking for help. It's cheating."

Well my apparently "bias" opinion is I don't think ANY stove is really going to be hot enough to actually cause burns.
If the kid is slow enough to basically lay their face on the door until an actual burn developes then I would say a helmet might be in order.

Hi, just realized I never updated about my door heat...

I went on vacation after talking with Dave, who was going to send a technician...when I got home, Jerry called me and spoke to someone from the NXR manu. company and they told him the door CAN get to 150 and that is considered normal. So no technician for now. I don't know how hot my door is getting, and have no way of testing it. It seems like now it doesn't get as hot as initially?!?

It was also doing what appeared to be radiating even MORE heat after it was turned off...it seemed to get really hot before cooling. But now, again, I don't really notice it.

Cool weather is coming, along with LOTS of oven cooking (yay!!) so I will be able to test it out more. I LOVE cooking with this range still, even though it has only been a little more than a month.

PS: I did the 'sun dried' tomatoes after a friend gave me what seemed like ten pounds of cherry tomatoes from his garden. They came out awesome! Thank you so much for the tip about drying. :)

The IR shooter was dropped by today, so I ran a test tonight. The unit was by Thermoworks who also make the Thermapen.

Tyguy was right: it did indeed have trouble reading off the SS sides. it seemed to do well with darker less shiny areas (such as the area between the bottom of the oven door and the kick-panel, of which more in a moment.) Wound up using my Thermapen, holding it against the sides and poking up against seams. Ran the oven at 450 F for an hour and half with the convection fan running.

Here is the good news. Much as PaintedPeggies found, on subsequent use of the oven, it did not seem as hot as the first time I ran it. The top of the stove was not as hot. On the side, there were hot areas along the seams. For those who have not seen an NXR up close, the oven door goes into a framed opening, and thaat frame has seems that butt up against the side panels. Along the edges of those seams and the edges of the door, I was getting temps as high as 132F. Other parts were up to 112F and most were only in the 90s. (I did have the vent fan running, and windows open, the air temp was about 49F, so much cooler than on Monday.

The top of the backsplash, where the oven vents out, was a lot warmer as would be expected. The air coming out was over 180F, the lips of the vent were about 140 F and the sides were about 125F. Of course, the vent is above the reach of toddlers, so not so much of a problem.

Most of the oven door surface seemed to be around 120F. That's hot enough to be startling and uncomfortable but won't really burn.

Now, the bad news for Pazul. There is a gap between the bottom of the oven door and the top of the kickplate. This gap is functional, it gives the heavy duty door room to fold down. Just the kind of thing that might look inviting to a toddler. The front edge of the top of the kickplate, temps were over 160F. At the back, the oven enamel was reading 230F. Not toddler friendly.

fyi - you're going to have a problem with the space between the oven door and kickplate on ANY range you get - I have that issue on my DCS which doesn't get very hot anywhere else - it's the nature of a gas range - that's where the oven burner is - it's only really hot if you stick you finger way in there - no matter what range you get, you'll need to keep the toddlers away from the oven!

Weissman is correct, on my NXR that is the only place on the front that actually gets hot at all, the rest is just warm at best.
But technically any kid under the age of about 8 has no business being in the kitchen at all, period.
and the oven door is the least of the worries, pots and pans with hot liquids in them, the OPEN oven right after you take something out, hinged doors that when closed can literally chop off a finger, KNIVES, I mean I can go on & on.

what is needed is a gate barrier so children are not allowed in the kitchen at all.
Being worried about a small child around an oven is basically the same as being worried about your small child while in the middle if a busy freeway.
The kid has no business being there and there is virtually no possible way to protect them from danger.

I'm not arguing with the idea that small children should stay away from hot stoves. I'm only pointing out something Pazul might not have thought about, something very child unfriendly that requires parental vigilence. I'm pointing it out because I had not thought about it, myself, until I started running the heat tests.

Also, I'm not sure that the gaps at the bottom of the oven door are the same problem for every stove, or if it is stoves with a kick plate or if its just gas ranges or if the "hot gap" is a bigger problem with "pro-style" stoves with the massive hinged doors that Nunya mentioned.

I say this because the gap did not look like the same kind of problem with my previous stove, a GE dual-fuel. That stove had a warming drawer rather than a kick plate. The stove previous to that was an electric GE with a storage drawer down there and a seemingly similarly narrow gap. The gaps between those oven doors and the drawers was much narrower than the one between the NXR oven door and its kick-plate. It was narrow enough that it never occurred to me that somebody might try to put fingers in there, and the storage drawer on the old stove never got very warm at all. Maybe the narrower gap is characteristic of electric ovens?

On the other hand, with my old GE dual-fuel having its warming drawer elements on the bottom plate of the stove, right above the floor, there could a lot of heat down there in the gap between the stove and the floor. The bottom of that stove could get quite hot. I discovered that effect at the first big holiday dinner I cooked with the stove. (There may have been a warning in the manual, but manuals have so many warnings about so many things, that it passed by me along with warnings about not licking the oven elements while they are hot and not putting the stove in my mouth.) I didn't think about or recognize a bottom-heat problem until I went to sponge up a boil-over that went down the side of the stove to the floor. (You get those kinds of problems with multiple pots being shoehorned onto the more crowded cooktops of standard residential stoves.) I found this before I got my hand close enough to get burned but it was still startling to find that heat there where I had not thought about it. Actually, until that point, I had not even realized that the heating element was beneath the warming drawer rather than at the top of the chamber. It all became obvious in retrospect.

The point of this is not that I am particularly stupid or that the average consumer is incompetent, but rather that stoves are so familiar that we take them for granted. We overlook or do not recognize things that may seem obvious in retrospect. Pazul pointed out some concerns and I pointed out some things to think about.

nunya- you can childproof (and we do) the rest of the kitchen but there is no way to keep a toddler out of the kitchen. Not sure what planet you live on but it is plain impossible. When cooking dinner we try our best to have them out of the kitchen; however, when baking/roasted for extended hours it is impossible and impractical. We are builing a house to LIVE in and that includes all family members. Your suggestion to "gate" off the the kitchen might have worked 30-40 yours ago in galley or blocked in kitchens but ours is part of a huge great room just like most new builds today. Our current electric range's oven never gets hot on the door just the vent at the back of the cooktop... the search continues....
Also, you comment about a helmet simply lowered the weight your opinion carries.... childish and uncalled for.

Sorry but my opinion was considered "bias" long before that apparently, so no loss there.

If your new kitchen is wide open then you are right, although if you are building it then you can build it any way you wish and include removable child type barriers of some sort.
But my point is basically exactly the same as you just stated.
------------------
"""but there is no way to keep a toddler out of the kitchen. Not sure what planet you live on but it is plain impossible. """-------------------

Same goes for child proofing a kitchen, plain impossible, it is like child proofing the center lane on the freeway not going to happen. Very VERY few burns that happen in a kitchen are because of the outside/front of the oven door when closed so I wouldn't let that sway a decision on a stove, if you do then might as well go with wall ovens.

I agree you should build a house to LIVE in and sadly part of LIFE is every once in awhile you might get hurt, 99% of the time its not fatal or catastrophic and its just a learning experience.

Prior to about 60-70 years ago none of this was even a consideration, if the kid slapped their hands on that blazing red hot wood stove like what my mother had when she was growing up, the standard reaction was "well I bet you don't do that again" put some butter or some home made salve on it and life goes on.

Meanwhile I just cooked some biscuits this morning, oven was on at 375 degrees for an hour, I actually got down and placed my bare cheek against the glass on the door, it was barely warm, felt like body temp at best, my wife said "WTF are you doing"? I said just checking something.

So in my now childish and bias opinion the only possible way a kid could burn themselves on the front of this range is if they stick their short little fingers way back into the deep crevasse between the bottom of the door and top of the kick plate, in which case I bet they don't do it again.

Okay, this is starting to sound intemperate and needs to be toned down. We can disagree with points, but let's avoid the personal insults.

To put it back on track, I see Nunya's point being a suggestion that barriers would help prevent problems with toddlers. I see Pazul's point being that such barriers are not feasible for the new house. Okay? Pazul has a consideration that others do not.

Nunya has the previous model NXR (NRG model) whose oven door stays cooler than the door and sides of the latest DRGB models. So, is the NXR a good stove? Sure. Is it for everybody? No.

Maybe the NXR, or any pro-style stove will not be suitable for Pazul's family until the kids are older? You come here to learn that stuff by just going to a store. Nuff said.

Oops. Left out something on the last sentence.

"You come here to learn that stuff that you cannot learn learn by just going to a store. Nuff said."

Also I might add, we have a small dog a little 9 lb Chihuahua.
We have a small kitchen but all the same dangers as a big open one. and being a little iddy biddy thing actually her biggest danger comes from US not seeing her and stepping on her, maybe then dropping something hot/sharp/heavy on her, she could also stick that little nose into that hot crack at the kick plate, although personally I bet she has more sense than that.

But point is, a kitchen is every bit as dangerous if not moreso for our little Chihuahua.
BUT you know the biggest difference is that our little 18 month old Chihuahua was able to be trained in the matter of a few minutes, with just a couple of treats and lots of praise and love saying good girl so that she will sit on a chair that we placed right at the end of our kitchen, just out of the way of everything so that she can see us better and thus not under our feet or able to get near the stove at all. No barriers involved, just a chair and a smart little creature.
She is now totally safe and all we need to do is when we go into the kitchen she immediately hops right up on that chair out of our way and we give her a treat and she stays right there looking at us.

I find it rather funny that there isn't a human being alive today that feels their child is as smart as our 18 month old Chihuahua. Not sure if it makes me want to laugh or cry.

Thanks for checking yours Nunya- but it appears that you have the better insulated and full 304 SS old version which may be part of the difference between the new and old heat issues. Just baked cookies tonight and our current range is cool to the touch even after baking dinner and cookies. Just wish I could feel an actual "pro" gas range myself after use whether that be the NXR, AR or similar. Maybe the pro performance just does not make sense due to safety concerns until the kids are both older???

A couple of thoughts about how or why the NRG models might run cooler than the DRGB models.

First, just for clarity, I think Pazul's reference to grades of stainless steel is for purpose of identifying the older model. I did not take it as a suggestion that the grade of stainless cladding might seriously affect heat dissipation within the oven door.

Second, this is speculation on my part as I have not seen or used an NRG model, but I wonder if the NRG's design differences give/gave better venting/cooling of the oven door than with the newer DRGB model? Certainly, I would not try putting my face up against the door of my DRGB model when the oven has been running for a while.

My understanding of how oven doors are cooled is that they have insulation on the oven-side interior --- a space that looks to be about 2 inches thick on my DRGB --- with an open space behind it through which room temperature air flows in from vents on the bottom edge to exhaust out vents on the top edge.

On an NXR oven door, you should be able to look down through the top vents to see to the bottom vents. If you can't see them, you've got a blockage that will make your door very hot. On my recently deceased GE dual fuel stove, the top vents were actually on the exterior face at the top of the door rather than on the top edge. Apparently, its airflow worked very well because I never had a problem with the door getting hot. I would not have hesitated to put my face against the oven glass. (Well, unlike Nunya, I surely would have hesitated to do so in the presence of the spouse.)

Anyway, the better the airflow, the cooler the exterior of the oven door door should be.

So, I'm wondering if the older NRG models have better airflow through the oven door vents? Did Durocorp affect that airflow when it changed the stove design from the NRG's slanted top front panel to the DRGB's vertical top panel? Did the redesign result in repositioning the oven door so that the top space (the one between the upper vents and the stove panel above them) is a bit narrower and air does not flow through as freely as it did before?

A difference in airflow through the door would certainly account for the difference between what Nunya is seeing with his earlier NRG and what Paintedpeggies, Mratner, GWbasic and I are seeing with out DRGB models.

Interesting idea about the model differences.
I just measured the thickness on ours and it is just barely under 3 1/2" and has 2 rows of vents top and bottom.

I always thought the only difference was the older model had a slanted panel where the knobs are instead of flat and the door handle is curved instead of straight.
Which I personally preferred the look of the older NRG model.

All I know is ours stays cool as a cucumber and I was always shocked when I saw someone say theirs is hot.

One range that might be a consideration in this respect is a Bertazzoni which I hear is very well insulated, so much so that the oven is actually about "Easy Bake" size.
If you dont mind a much smaller oven that could be a viable option.

Nunya and JWV - is it possible for each of you to take a snapshot showing a tape measure to measure the door thickness. Also if possible to show the venting on the doors. Sounds like JWV is onto something here!

Here ya go.
Not sure if you can see it in the photo but I am measuring from the inside part of the door that sticks into the oven to the outside of the door, which is the actual thickness.

I want to make it clear for Pazul that I do not think the venting in the door is the problem. As far as I can tell, Duro did nothing to change the door itself. Except for the shape of the handle, the door on my DRGB looks exactly the same as the NRG door in Nunya's photos. His measurements look exactly like mine (except that I didn't think to photograph them.)

To clarify, what I said about the insulated front part being about 2 inches thick, I was talking about the portion of the door above the 2 inch mark on Nunya's tape measure in the photo above. The open vent space at the back (outer) part of the door is the part between the 2 inch and 3 and 1/2 inch marks in Nunya's photos. The vent holes on the bottom look just like the ones on the top.

I'm working out of town today, so I can't take a photo, but you can go to http://www.durocorp.com/products/drgb3001/ and look at "view 3" to see the oven door on a DRGB model.

What I am wondering about is how the door fits into the framing when the door is closed. Go to the above web site and you can also check out pictures of the NRG.

All looks the same to me, the way the door fits into the frame etc. As long as the actual insulation inside the door is the same then I cant imagine what is different.

I'm doubting that there is less insulation. Of course, it is possible that insulation did not get properly installed or Duro got a bad batch) I'm still inclined to explore the most likely thing being something that changed or slowed down the air flow in at the bottom or the exhuast at the top.

What is on the bottom of the knob-panel above your oven? I kind of remember feeling some sort of indented channel up there on my stove. When I get home, I'll have a look at my DRGB and see if I can get a photo.

Yes there is a sort of grooved panel that mirrors the vents somewhat. maybe that is it, the older model just for some design reason gets better airflow.

I have always been rather pleased at how cool this door stays, I just figured because it was so darn thick and heavy that was it, but maybe that combined with the airflow.

Nunya, does your panel below the knobs and above the door look similar to these pictures? Although there is a slight groove, there isn't really much for the air to be vented out from.

Nope, totally different than that.
It is just big flat panel with grooves and the grooves do not go through the metal. In fact just looking at it you would think the newer model would vent better.

Well, just as I was going to check on how to upload photos I find GWbasic's upload and I do not have to.

A further update. Yesterday was bread baking. I was impressed with how well the oven baked my sourdough loaves. I will admit to having been prejudiced towards electric ovens and was figuring I would have to experiment some before I could figure out how to make my new oven do what I want. My old GE dual fuel had a three-element electric convection oven and I thought it did a very good job with bread. The NXR convection oven did a noticably (to me, anyway) better job. I've been trying for years to get a thin, shatteringly crisp crust that is not overbrowned. First try with the new oven and its exactly the crust I've been trying to get.

Did more checking on exterior temps. Found that the center of the kickpanel (basically, right in front of the bake element and glow plug) was between 140F and 145F during baking. Bottom of the oven door (base to about 2" below the window) was running about 130F to 135F. The window glass was about 92F. Side temps were generally below 120F except along seams where they were again about 130F.

This problem also happens with other "pro-style stoves" such as the Wolf AG model. See the following threads:

Wolf AG range: outside too hot

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/appl/msg0915554823702.html?2

wolf range problem-hot door surface

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/appl/msg1016454124203.html

Well good thing about all your measurements is it proves it would be difficult to get burned by touching even the newer models door.
Even the very hottest part at 140 degrees you would have to lay your hand on it for quite some time before you would get a burn, even in 140 degree water it takes 6 seconds and it is considerably easier/faster to get scalded in water than burned on a dry surface.

This is the Underwriters laboratories requirements for ovens to be considered "safe".
These are temps after oven runs at 400 degrees for 1 hour.

""""Side Panel, Painted 152 degrees
Side Panel, Porcelain 160 degrees

Oven Door, Painted 152 degrees
Oven Door, Porcelain 160 degrees
Oven Door, Glass 172 degrees

Warmer Drawer, Painted 152 degrees
Warmer Drawer, Porcelain 160 degrees

Cooktop No temp limits apply
Lower Console no temp limits apply
Oven Vent Area No temp limits apply

Knob and handle temperatures on electric and gas ranges (including self clean cycle) are allowed to be up to 167F (75C) for plastic or plastic coated metal and 131F (55C) for metal. The dial or skirt may be up to 20 degrees hotter.

Knob and handle temperatures on electric self cleaning ranges during the clean cycle are allowed to be up to 182F (83C) for plastic or plastic coated metal and 152F (67C) for metal. The dial or skirt should not exceed these temperatures.""""
======================================================

So the NXR is well within what is considered safe limits.

Ah, it is the UL that publishes those standards. I was looking in the wrong places. Could you post the links, please?

This is the only one I could get to come up this morning, the UL site wouldn't let me search.

http://www.appliance411.com/faq/hotrange.shtml

Thanks.

We have had our NXR 30 inch range for over 2 yrs.
WE LOVE IT!!!!

Previously we had a 50 yr old Hardwick gas cooktop (open burners with crumb trays underneath) and a wall oven which we also loved (they were still working) but HAD TO REMODEL after 50 yrs!!!!

NXR Burners are fantastic . I can't imagine a home cook needing anymore out of a range really. We've had open burners and closed and as far as I'm concerned I think I prefer the closed ones on the NXR. With the open ones you tend to ignore cleaning the crumb trays. Maybe it's just lazy me. With the NXR you just wipe it down when you get around to it. For stubborn cooked on food residue I just use a paste of BARKEEPER's FRIEND , let it sit a minute or two and the residue will rub off.

CLICKING BURNERS can be a problem BUT....I found that ALL the gas stoves today (my brother has a Kenmore) will from time to time continue to make that clicking sound. Recently I noticed when cleaning inside the NXR burner assembly there was some carbon from food residue .. .a black powder which I just blew into the trash can and the burner clicking hasn't given me any problems since.

As for the oven.... it's larger than our 50 yr old wall oven... A very nice size. A larger oven would be too big in my opinion.... it would take more time and more gas to heat up. Wouldn't it? You can easily get two smaller chickens in there side by side. We mostly bake in it.. roasts, chicken , turkey, pizza,casseroles, cookies , cakes. No problems. The convection fan really helps to brown nicely.

We've used the broiler a few times for steaks. VERY POWERFUL ! So don't walk away from your steak when broiling. Maybe we don't know what we're doing but we move our top rack down a little bit so the steaks cook a little slower. We received a broiler pan with our NXR which we use for the steaks and chicken.

Fortunately we got the center grate free and we love that too, but before it came it didn't bother us too much to pick up and move the pots around.

The ONLY PROBLEM we've had was at about 1 yr 6 months the OVEN IGNITOR broke (it is extremely sensitive in all ovens).... and I looked on You Tube and learned how to fix it myself. SOmewhere on Gardenweb I show you how I did this, it includes the part number for the ignitor (NXR doesn't have parts in stock). I'm a lady and it was VERY EASY TO FIX the oven ignitor.... nothing anyone should worry about. I saved hundreds doing it myself. Again, very easy.

I WOULD HIGHLY RECOMMEND NXR . VERY WELL MADE.

CLEANING: It's stainless, so everything shows. I find myself wiping down my NXR pretty much daily. On the other hand, tt definitely is easier to clean than my previous stove, a GE dual fuel. I just pull the grates, spritz some Windex and wipe with a microfiber cloth or paper towel. I used a lot more Barkeeper's Friend (BKF) on the old GE than I do with my NXR. I was a little worried about the cooktop's seams but the grates cover them and, so far, wiping with a microfiber cloth cleans them up easily.

The oven is easier to clean than I expected. Spritzing some water from a spray bottle on gooey or carbonized spots while the oven is still hot does seem to help. BKF for the stuff that does not wipe off from the cooled oven. So far, I am not missing oven-self-cleaning.

CLICKING BURNERS: I've run into this a bit but, for me, it has turned out to be the knobs sticking against. That is, when pushing the knobs in to start ignition, they rubbed against the bezel and sort of stock, not springing all the way back out. So, the ignitors clicked as though I were still pressing the knobs in for ignition. A couple of bezels were a little off-center (a new stove problem.) Easily fixed with a quick re-position of the bezels. Pop the knob off, loosen two screws, center the bezel, tighten the screws, and put the knob back on, That took care of the clicking problem for me. Gwbasic had a photo of the bezel screws in another thread.

OVEN SIZE: I agree that 4.2 cu. ft. oven oven is a good size. The oven in my old GE dual fuel stove was rated as having 5.1 cu. ft. but did not seem appreciably larger. WHile it was couple inches taller inside, it also have the lower element exposed on the oven floor, so there really was not much more usable space in it. The NXR oven has certainly been big enough for everything I cook. It will certainly handle a 20# turkey, if need be. The convection has been excellent for breads as well as for roasting meat and poultry.

EASY FIX: I have linked to Susan's illustrated guide to the easy ignitor replacement.

Here is a link that might be useful: if susan fixed her nxr oven ignitor u can 2 !

"The oven is easier to clean than I expected. Spritzing some water from a spray bottle on gooey or carbonized spots while the oven is still hot does seem to help. BKF for the stuff that does not wipe off from the cooled oven. So far, I am not missing oven-self-cleaning."

I can not recall whether it was the Wolf or the Elctrolux oven operators manual that "Warns againt cold liquids coming in contact with the hot porcelain finish"----(It is glass and could be "Finely cracked" by contact with cold liquids!

Gary

Interesting information that never occurred to me. I did a little research and found that it is Wolf with the warning that Gary was thinking of. Here's the warning from Wolf's manual for its 30-inch AG stoves, on page 27:

"Never wipe a warm or hot porcelain surface with a
damp sponge; it may cause chipping or crazing (tiny
hairlike cracks)."

I scanned the manual for the Electrolux induction stove that I was considering before I bought the NXR, and did not see a similar warning. (Maybe I missed it, though.) The NXR manual says nothing about this, but that manual is pretty thin on content.

I've been doing the spray bottle thing for decades, Also, when bread goes into a hot oven, I also mist with the spray bottle, too. I have never noticed a problem with the oven surface.

But, again, it never occurred to me to look, either. So I went out to the garage where my previous stove is stashed pending transport to the to the used-stove store. Using a strong flashlight. I checked the oven interior. I did not see any crackling or crazing in the surface.

Maybe I've been lucky, but I suspect that the misting I do is much less of a thermal shock than wiping with a sponge.

A side benefit to looking at the manuals for other stoves was finding some nice illustrations for dismounting and remounting the NXR oven door.

It turns out that the freestanding Electrolux induction stove and the NXR use similar oven door hinges. These are mounted to the door and drop into slots in the face frame of the oven. (The more familiar arrangement has been to mount the hinges to the face frame and slot the door over them).

The NXR manual is oblivious on explaining mounting and dismounting the door, but check out the E-lux manual linked below. Pages 58 and 59 have helpful illustrations of how to un-mount and re-mount this kind of oven door.

http://manuals.electroluxusa.com/prodinfo_pdf/Springfield/316471013en.pdf

I have a 36" AR Performer 6 burner. I really like it. Very easy to clean, plenty of power and looks pretty good. Grates take some getting used to--also had to have AR send new grates as the rubber feet melted. AR said that they redesigned so that doesnt happen. Also note that the oven knob is "jiggly" but AR said that was how they are.

All in all very happy with my purchase. Look around, you can get very, very good deals on these. If you want more etails on living wih the AR let me know, or ips on buying one.

Glad you like your new stove.

Now that we have somebody with an AR stove, a question occurs to me. I've always assumed we could manually light any gas cooktop burner. However, in some of the post-Hurricane Sandy discussions, I learned that there some models of current gas and DF models need to have electrical power for gas to flow -- they are are designed so that the burners cannot be lit manually in a power outage. Examples are the Maytag dual-oven ranges and some of the Electrolux stoves.

I recall reading someplace that the owner's manual for the AR ranges forbids manually lighting burners. Do you know if AR is simply warning against manually lighting burners (i.e., has a CYA provision in the owner's guide) or if instead it is actually impossible to manually light the burners (i.e., the burners won't work without electrical power to the stove)?

Some follow-up to my NXR reports after having the stove for three months.

Once in a while (maybe three times in the last 3 months), a burner will have trouble lighting. First thing I check is making sure that the cap is properly seated. Sometimes, they get nudged when cleaning to the stovetop. (I've done that twice.) Once a bit of moisture got in there from my spritizng the cooktop for cleaning or maybe from a boil-over. For that instance, I just grabbed a can of pressurized air (the kind I use for dusting my computer cases and keyboards) and blew out the orifices on the burner. Problem solved.

I was thinking that my old 10" x 20" cast-iron Lodge griddle might be a little short for spanning two burners and heating evenly on the NXR. Turns out it works fine. Just pre-heat on low for about 10 minutes and it does a great job with pancakes and other breakfast cooking. The only problems I've had are not related to the stove. Basically, my home cured bacon tends to render out a lot of grease and the flat-handles on Lodge griddle make it hard to lift and drain. The raised handles on the Chefkings (like Nunya has) would make this much easier.

The NXR oven is a bit shallower front-to-back than I like. It is not deep enough for me to put two half-sheet pans side-by side on a rack, something I used to be able to do with my old GE dual fuel.

The oven continues to heat evenly and maintain temps well except that I have discovered a quirk with convection.

The quirk is that, on my stove, convection mode seems to dial down the thermostatic control by 50F when the fan is switched on. This is very much like the auto-convection-adjust that is now common on major brand stoves. The manuals for many major-brand stoves used to tell you to drop the oven temp setting by 25F when using convection. Nowadays, many major brand stoves do the temp-set-back automatically. Some of them have menu settings that allow you to shut this feature off. Some reports here at GW indicate that there are other stoves that automatically run the oven at 25F lower for all convection modes and make you set to a higher temp if, say, you want to convect at 350F; for that, you have to set the oven temp to 375F.

That is what seems to be happening with my NXR except, that the drop in this case is exactly 50F. That is, with convection running and two loaves of bread in pans on a middle shelf (and also with a roast on the supplied broiler-roasting pan) and the dial set to 400F, the oven temp between the bread pans or at the roastpan will read 350F. If I want the temp to be 375F, I have to set the dial to 425F. If I shut off the convection fan, the oven temp then pretty quickly climbs to the set-point and cycles around it. (Verified with two different oven thermometers and a remote probe sitting on a pad above the the roast or between the bread pans.)

I called the NXR customer line and stumped the band with this one. At first, they thought I was asking about the cycling. Apparently, they get a lot of questions about cycling because there are a lot of people who do not know about temperature cycling in ovens. For any readers who do not know, this is normal cycling: You set the dial for 350F. The oven heats up a bit over that (say, 375F) and the oven burner shuts off. The temperature in the oven slowly falls until a temperature probe on the side or top of the oven walls reads something below the set-point (say, to 330F or even lower on some stoves.) The burner comes back on to heat the oven to, say, 370F when it shuts off and the cycle repeats. The swings will be a bit larger at the thermo-probe than you might measure in the middle of the oven, but the interior will average the 350F that you have set on the dial.

That is not what I'm talking about here. It took a while for me to get through to the NXR folks that I was not talking about cycling, and that cycling works normally on my NXR. Without convection, the middle of the oven stays pretty close to the set point on the dial. If I put a thermometer towards the back or top, then I see the normal cycling. But it cycles around the set point. If set the oven to 400F, it cycles around 400F. The oven temp averages 400F.

With the convection fan running, it cycles around a temperature that is 50F lower than the set point. Actually, with convection fan running and thermometers placed in the middle of the oven (as described above), the temperature seems to stay very even at that location.

Apparently, the latter point confused them because somebody then they thought I might be asking about "short-cycling" --- the very narrow cycling band of some of the earlier production run of the NRG models from three or four years ago. The short-cyling made for extraordinarily even oven temps but also wore out oven ignitors (for which there was a retrofit. I think Stacy Neil mentioned it in one of her posts. The DRGB stoves have the redesign so that fix was bot needed for them.) .

Eventually, I got NXR convinced that I was not calling about cycling but about an an apparent automatic set-down that kicks in when the convection fan is engaged. They had never heard of this happening with their stove. (But, then, who else besides us folks here at GW would be putting thermometers in our ovens to understand baking performance?) Anyway, the folks in the California office have e-mailed my question to the factory to find out if this set-back is intentional or not. They'll e-mail me when they find out. I'll report back when I hear anything.

I've been impressed with how easily the oven clean up has been. (I'm one of those people who likes self-cleaning ovens and thought I might miss that function.) However, apart from a couple of instances where I had to use some Barkeeper's Friend on the oven floor --- to remove cabonized gunk (roast checiken spatter and drips from a burst sweet potato -- I've found that blue surface mostly wipes right out. It may help that I'm steaming the oven once or twice a week. When baking bread, I have a roasting/casserole pan of water on the bottom shelf for steam. This probably has the same effect as the "steam clean" feature I've seen on some new stoves (Whirlpool calls this "Aqua-lift" and advertises it as a self-cleaning mode. It is not. It is only an assist for "myself-cleaning". It seems to work pretty well (so far) though for keeping the oven clean. A clean oven heats more evenly than a messy one.

I've also been impressed with how easy it is to clean the roasting pan that comes with the stove. This is coasted with the same blue-porcelainized stuff that lines the oven. This surface is much better than the old granite-ware coastings that were used on roasting and broiling pans and ovens I've had in the past. I've used the NXR pan for roasting chickens and did a meat-loaf last weekend with a particularly sticky glaze. After dinner, I was able to knock most of the goo and stuck-on stuff off the louvers in top cover by simply running warm water and pressing with the a plastic spatular/pancake turner, and then finished clean up with a nylon brush. It was easier than cleaning out porcelain coasted cast-iron pans.

I have a 36" AR Performer 6 burner. I really like it. Very easy to clean, plenty of power and looks pretty good. Grates take some getting used to--also had to have AR send new grates as the rubber feet melted. AR said that they redesigned so that doesnt happen. Also note that the oven knob is "jiggly" but AR said that was how they are.

All in all very happy with my purchase. Look around, you can get very, very good deals on these. If you want more etails on living wih the AR let me know, or ips on buying one.

Is this you response to my question about lighting burners manually, ?

hi AttnyChef- i need to buy the exact range that you bought sometime in the next few weeks. hoping you wouldn't mind sharing tips on how to get a deal on one with accessories. i can be reached by email (click on my user id then click "send me an email"). thanks in advance.

This post was edited by jtlaa on Tue, Nov 27, 12 at 12:58

36" Performer owner here. I love the range. Great build quality, great commercial-style looks without being overly-sterile (I prefer the AR looks to the BlueStar), and amazing performance. 5 burners at 25k BTU! Yes, I use the burners on max frequently.

I'm glad AttnyChef pointed out the fix to the rubber feet on the grates. Mine have also disintegrated from the heat. I called AR and they are sending out a fix. Not sure what that will entail. Other than that minor issue, the range has been fantastic.

The NXR is not comparable to the American at all. Nor should it be due to the price difference. The AR for me was the perfect compromise between the cheaper, less powerful NXR and the more expensive BlueStar/Capital.

I did pay full retail price at the local dealer. They were not budging. And with only one dealer in the area, I had no negotiating power. It was $1500 cheaper than the BlueStar I had originally decided on.

Correction to my previous post: 3 of the 6 burners are 25k BTU. 2 are at 18k and the front center burner is the simmer burner, 12k.

Could you give us more details about how the stove works and how you use it?I ask because this thread is supposed to provide a comparison between the AR and NXR but has pretty much been entirely about the NXR.

How long have you had your stove?I kind of recall reading some posts from you last spring when you first started looking for one and AR was still getting production ramped up and was slow in responding to e-mails.Obviously, AR has overcome the initial stumbles.Did you have to order your stove or did your dealer have one in stock?How long did it take you to get your stove?

Seems like you might be one of the earliest adopters, so your input could be very useful to others considering these kinds of stoves.

Off the top of my head, I can think of a lot of questions, if you have the time to respond.

IIRC, the AR has procelain coated bowls around the burners.How easy/hard are they to clean?Can you avoid scrubbing them by just running them through the dishwasher?How easy are they to pull out and put back in?(I ask because I recall seeing some BS owners posting about trouble getting their burner bowls back in place.)

How do those star burners work with small pans?Have you tried extended simmering or low heat applications (say melting chocolate)?

Did you get the center grate?

I think I recall the AR having twin convection fans in the oven.Have you tried convection baking yet?Can you run the convection fan(s) with the broiler? Have you tried cleaning the oven yet?AR describes the oven as 19" deep.Does that account for the housing for the convection fans?Does it account for the depth of the door's intrusion into the oven? (I ask because the specs I got on the NXR did not).And, speaking of the oven door, we had a discussion above about external temps and oven doors with the current NXRs and Blue Stars getting pretty warm/hot.Have you had a chance to figure out how the AR does in this regard?

Also, maybe you know if the AR surface burners can be lit manually in the event of a power outage?

Anything you can contribute will be appreciated.

This post was edited by JWVideo on Wed, Nov 28, 12 at 13:37

We've had the range about 4 months. We ordered through a dealer in Salt Lake City. It took about 4 weeks to arrive.

I haven't done any baking in it yet (still busy with new house odds and ends) but have used the range top extensively.

Dismantling the range top for cleaning is simple. Remove the cast iron grate, lift off the cast iron burner caps and lift out the bowl. I haven't run mine though the dishwasher - I just clean them in the sink. Very easy. The grates are nice because they have rubber feet so they don't scratch the counter top when you remove them. The grate could double as a large table-top trivet. I look forward to seeing how American has fixed the melted feet problem.

I really like the large double grate covers. They don't budge. That's one thing I didn't like about some of the other ranges I looked at. I hate a wobbly grate under the pan. I got all grates on my 36" unit. I simply keep a Lodge cast iron griddle/grill (reversible) over two of the burners so it's always ready to go. You get the convenience of a built-in griddle/grill without the added cost and without having to lose two burners.

No problems with the star burners and small pans that I've experienced. If I'm using a very small pan I tend to put it on the simmer burner for its smaller flame coverage. Simmer seems to work just fine, though I can't say I've done a lot of low-simmer stuff yet. In the past I've always resorted to a double boiler for melting chocolate/etc. I'll have to try it out on the simmer burner sans boiler.

I haven't needed to light the burners sans electricity but I have no reason to believe they won't ignite that way. One cool thing I noticed is if you blow out a burner it will automatically reignite. I don't know how many other high-end ranges do that, but I know my old standard-issue gas range I had years ago did not.

I really like the burner design. It's kind of a hybrid between open and sealed. There aren't big gaps around the burner (like the Blue Star) where food or liquids can spill. But you get the full star pattern unlike the typical sealed unit.

The only thing I preferred about the Blue Star is the ability to remove the center of the grate and drop a wok in the hole. But other than that I prefer everything else about the American. The lower price is a nice bonus.

I bought the wok ring, the decorative feet and the cutting board. Don't spring for the cutting board. I regret getting that. Way overpriced.

>>>"I haven't needed to light the burners sans electricity but I have no reason to believe they won't ignite that way. One cool thing I noticed is if you blow out a burner it will automatically reignite. I don't know how many other high-end ranges do that, but I know my old standard-issue gas range I had years ago did not."I think most pro-style ranges have that circuitry. With my NXR I've had some random clicking. Once it was a bit of crud or something around the ignitor (easily blown off) and a couple of times I had knocked the little center burner cap while cleaning.(That's something that can happen with the NXR's double stacked burner design. Wolf stoves use the same make of burner and also exhibit this sometimes. A couple of years ago, there were postings about Wolf having had a run of bad ignitors which caused problems for about six months until they got the problem sorted out.)You won't have that cap problem with the star burner design and I would guess that the AR's star burner design makes it easier to see when something gets on the ignitors. I found canned air (computer dusters) is handy for fixing the crud the one time it happened to me.

On lighting w/o electricity, I asked because of numbers of posts in the wake of Sandy & Athena where folks have been surprised to discover that their particular gas stove cannot be lit manually.I recalled seeing something in the AR manual that said not to light the burners manually because electrically operated safety mechanisms would not work.It was not clear if that was manufacturer CYA/legalese (i.e., the burners actually can be lit manually but the maker's legal advisors do not want them to say so) or if there is an electrical interlock. as with some Maytag and Electrolux gas and DF ranges, which will not allow gas to flow at all without electrical power being supplied to the stove.

I see your dealer was in Salt Lake which puts you on the other side of the Rockies from me. Here, we get NG in town but have to rely on LP in most of the surrounding area.Do you have natural gas service or are you out where you had to get a propane version of the stove?

Did your SLC dealer deliver and install your stove or was it like the NXR where it basically comes to the curb and you are responsible for installation (either doing it yourself or separately hiring it out)?

Also, being at altitude, did you have to specify anything about that? Some stove makers let you specify your altitude and they pre-adjust the stove for you. Others leave this up to the dealers. And others leave it up to you.I was suprised to find that my NXR showed up here (6000 feet) with the oven and three stove-top burners already adjusted for this altitude.I had to adjust afourth burner to get the low setting from flickering out.

I also use a Lodge CI griddle.I was a little concerned that it might be a bit short for the burner spacing, but it has turned out to be fine.I've found it takes about 15 minutes to fully preheat to where I can cook on it. I do not run the burners full because of concerns about thermal shock from heating it too quickly. There have been numbers of posts about that with induction users because those stoves can really ramp up heat in CI in a very short time.With those 25k-btu-hr burners on the AR, I'm wondering if you might have a similar concern?

The other concern I have with the Lodge griddle on my NXR is that it has flat handles and the design of the burner grates is such that it is hard to grab those flat handles if I need to lift or drain the griddle.(The griddle has a channel to hold run-off from, say, cooking bacon, but it is not very deep and can fill up quickly if you cook a lot of bacon at once.)Have you run into this problem with your AR?

This post was edited by JWVideo on Wed, Nov 28, 12 at 16:32

We are on natural gas here.

The dealer (Orson Gygi) did deliver and install. They did a great job - they were very careful with both the range and my wood floors. How refreshing.

It was a high-altitude model. This was the default for this dealer, being at high altitude themselves.

When I use my griddle, I go full-flame or close to it. I've never thought about "thermal shock" - and it doesn't appear to have been a problem. The griddle heats up in a hurry. A few minutes and I'm ready to go.

My griddle also has the flat handles. If I need to lift it while hot, I simply slide one handle off the grate to grab it, then do the same with the other side. Not a big deal - though I've rarely had to do this.

Yeah, that's what I do to get the front handle on my griddle but its a little more clumsy picking up the back when there was a lot of bacon grease.

Good to know about the dealer. Its a benefit to buying the more expensive stove.

Can someone comment on the performance of the NXR gas oven for baking? I use my oven primarily for baking and roasting vegetables; I rarely cook meat. I had heard electric ovens were better for baking, but I haven't been impressed with my Jenn-Air or a DCS I tried. The best oven I have used for baking is my Breville countertop for bread and anything in a 13X9 pan. Everything is cooked so evenly.
So, if the gas oven is no better than the large electrics I'd like to consider the NXR range.
I have also not yet found a place in the Boston area which carries it so I could take a look.

We have never had any problems with ours.
The convection works well to bake evenly for cookies and such.
For baking a couple sheets of bread/rolls you might have to turn the pan around 1/2 way through when you spritz a little water just to get everything exactly even.

I've posted about baking and roasting here and in other NXR threads. I'll summarize.

I've found my NXR oven does a better job with bread than my pervious stove, a GE DF with third element convection in the oven. By better bread, I mean that I am getting very thin and shatteringly crisp crusts with long crumb, creamy interiors with sourdough loaves. I also have been able to get chewy-crusted baguettes. This was much harder to do with the previous oven.

The previous stove's third-element convection electric oven did a better of evenly baking three sheets of sugar cookies. With the NXR oven, there are only two oven racks and with sugar cookies, I have to rorate the trays part way through.

Baking large trays of biscuits likewise requires a rotation part way through if I'm trying to get the tops to brown without resorting to the upper heating element. Browning biscuits by finish firing with the upper heating element seems to be about the same except that I need to drop the baking sheet a level in the nXR because the broiler is very very strong.

Roasting vegetables on baking sheets or big pyrex baking dishes (like 9x13 pyrex) seem to come out the same in the NXR as as in the previous stove's electric oven. I've baked diced sweet potatoes, diced winter squash, broccoli, thin green beans ?(haricot vert), mixed aromatics for soups (onions, leeks, celery, carrots, rutabegas, beets, sweet peppers, etc.) I often coat the veggies with some olive oil and add a little sugar to speed caramelization. I've always given the veggies a stir about half-way through to promote eveness of cooking. Did this with GE DF's electric oven and still do it with the NXR.

Baked potatoes (on metal skewers) and peeled, roasted potatoes, and baked French "fries" seem no different.

Fruit pies seem to come out better in the NXR without convection where the GE stove seemed to need the convectio to brown the pie-crusts evenly. Beyond that small difference in technique, pies seem equally good from both ovens.

Custardy things -- quiches, timbales, potato cakes (like pommes Anna, Spanish-style tortillas -- seem to cook a little faster and little more evenly, and get better dark-brownb color in the NXR (with convection) than I remember them coming ou of the GE stove's convection oven.

Roasted things -- hams, beef and pork roasts, whole chickens, holiday turkeys, roasted salmon -- all seem to come out the same from the NXR's oven (using convection) as before with the GE stove's electric convection oven.

To my eye, the NXR's infra-red broiler is noticeably stronger than the electric broiler element in the pervious GE stove. However, the NXR broiler seems to to be more focused, so it does better with two steaks where the GE's broiler was more diffuse and better suited to evenly broiling a half-sheet pan of steaks or burgers.

Note my postings above about the NXR oven not cycling as high or low as the the older GE electric oven did when burners went on and off around the set temperature. Note also my post that running convection seems to drop the temperature about 50F below the set temp.