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Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Posted by needinfo1 (My Page) on
Mon, Jul 7, 14 at 20:21

I just returned from the appliance store, and the DW scene has changed since I last bought. The salesman told me that all of today's dishwashers are better than they were 10 years ago, or even 2 years ago. Whether that is true or not, I don't know. I have some concerns/questions I'd appreciate some help with.

We need to replace a pretty top-of-the line (at the time) KA that is perhaps 10 to 12 years old. Miele, Bosch, and KA were the three brands I looked at today but would appreciate it if there are any other suggestions for other brands I should be considering. I'd probably be looking at a lower end Miele, a middle to higher end KA, and something in the Bosch 800 series. I'm guessing we'll be spending in the $1,000 to $1,500 range for a replacement.

Clean dishes, great reliability, and a quiet DW are my primary concerns. I live in a major metro area, so I think service/repairs would not be an issue no matter which brand I go with.

1. If there is no heating coil (Bosch or Miele) how do we ensure that the water is actually hot enough to do a thorough job? Do I have to have my water heater set to scald in order to get really hot water to the dishwasher? Is there a sani-wash on these brands? Will I miss not having the heating coil feature on my current KA if I go with one of these European brands?

2. Cycles on the newer models of dishwashers are soooooo much longer than on the older models. Do any of these three brands have an overall shorter wash cycle? (And, the 4K commercial grade Miele that does a load in just over a half an hour is out!)

3. Are the racks of better quality and more durable on any of these 3 brands?

4. Does anyone have any info on which of these actually produces the cleanest dishes?

5. Which brand has the best reliability so I am not looking at a string of repairs all the time? I believe I read that Miele has proprietary parts, so I am assuming this would be the most expensive to repair.

6. What are the pluses and minuses to these different brands?

Thanks for any help you can give me.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Just to be clear the Bosch and the Miele have very powerful heating elements. They are both flow through elements where 100% of the water passes over the heater and they both do a very rapid job of heating the water. Both can basically take cold water and heat it to their maximum set temp in minutes. These are much more efficient than the ring heaters you see on most other dishwashers.
The Bosch and Miele are known for their cleaning ability's


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

All dishwashers, including the three you listed, will clean properly when in working order and when used properly. If there was a brand that did not clean dishes the word would spread and you would know about it! Many find that they need to switch detergents, use rinse aid, and pay extra attention to the hardness of their water which they did not have to do with their old dishwashers. This is because new dishwashers use weaker pumps to save energy. Any of those 3 brands (except of course the 30 minute Miele LOL) probably have weaker pumps than your 10 year old KA does. Given more time, they can still do a great job, but they are much more sensitive to various factors. Eliminating phosphates from detergent did not help the situation. Anyhow, those factors are where most of the complaints about today's dishwashers arise.

As jakvis said you will certainly don't need to worry about the ability of these dishwashers to heat water - that's one thing new dishwashers tend to do great at. But, if you opt for Bosch or Miele, you will lose the heated dry cycle. Most find that they don't need it - I have a heated dry cycle on my DW which I never use unless I need to use the dishes right that instant.

Theoretically, Miele should be the most reliable. The only part they outsource is the rollers on the racks of their dishwashers. They even make the electronic control board themselves. Build quality feels greater than many other appliances. But, Miele dishwashers can break too, just like every other appliance, and when they do, you are right that they will probably be the most expensive in terms of parts

Cycle time keeps going up and up and up. Almost to the point where I'd say differences between brands don't really matter. I can't tell you how long each brand takes, and manufacturers have made that information harder to find - even the owners manuals sometimes don't have it. But I would download the PDF owners manuals of the models you're interested and look there.

I haven't been dishwasher shopping in a few years so I don't remember rack differences, sorry.

So, to summarize:

-If quality is the most important factor, go Miele or top of line Bosch made in Germany

-If you have even slightly hard water and don't have a whole house softener, consider buying a DW that has one built in

-Cleaning ability and cycle time should not be major factors in your decision

-Looks, features, and price should be major factors


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Thank the both of you so much! This is exactly the type of info I was looking for. Now to be clear, even a lower level Miele is probably a preferred purchase?


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Yes. The bottom of the line Miele's are as good quality as the top, they just have less features. But two things to watch out for if you go that route: the very bottom of the line unit doesn't have a 3rd rack for silverware; that is kind of an "iconic" feature for Miele (although Bosch and KA have picked it up over the years, though many argue Miele implements it best) and something that many Miele DW shoppers want. You may not care though. Also, the lower end ones don't have water softeners. Again, this may or may not matter to you.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

We were comparing Bosch and Miele and have settled on Miele. In my opinion, the build quality feels significantly better than Bosch (a fact that actually surprised me). I did not look at the KA.

Between Miele models, there are several choices, even in your price range. You get the same basic features; a lot of the price difference comes in where the controls are located and which rack adjustments can be made. We've probably settled on the Futura Dimension, which is $1699 for the front control version and includes essentially all the rack adjustments (including the 3D cutlery basket), plus the AutoOpen Dry feature. I think it's about $300 more than the next model down, the Futura Crystal. The Crystal has fewer rack adjustments and no AutoOpen Dry, but most other features are comparable. There are some things we do not care about, such as number of cycles and how quiet the dishwasher is, primarily because both will be significantly better than the dishwasher we have now, and we don't have an open concept floor plan.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

alerievay (Pig Latin for Valerie?)

Thanks for the response. Are you saying that the Miele is louder than you would have preferred? I've been reading about the Mieles, and that AutoOpen dry feature sounds appealing and is something I might be tempted to pay a bit more for.

And, I've been reading about how American dishwashers like the KA are larger capacity than the European. Does anyone know if this is true?

Thanks again.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Yes, it is the origin of my user name.

No, I wasn't clear; my current dishwasher is extremely loud, and all the Miele models are under 50 dB, which is fairly accepted as "quiet." It may be of more concern if you have an open concept kitchen, of course.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

We just got a Miele Dimension last week. Got the one with the hidden controls and steel panel. Worked well since we will be doing a major remodel soon and we can replace the panel with a custom one if needed. It's very quiet. Takes some getting used to, but the cutlery rack is awesome.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

I wouldn't worry to much about sound - my last dishwasher was 53 dB I think and I was even amazed by how quiet that was. I would say that the small increase in capacity KA has probably will be negligible to the vast majority of people. Also, it comes at the expense of sticking out a bit more, eliminating the flush look and making it harder to do fully integrated paneled installations. If you can afford it I would go Miele - I wish I had, and I'm pretty happy with my current DW.

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Tue, Jul 8, 14 at 16:03


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Now I have another component to add to the question. Today I also saw the Asko and was fairly impressed with their higher end model. Any thoughts on how these are in comparison to the others?

Thanks again.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Asko is another good European DW. I don't think they're at the level of Miele though in terms of quality. We don't see as many reviews of them, but those who do buy tend to really like them. The new models look cool.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

I'm starting to think that a quality dishwasher is an oxymoron. We have had GE (x2), Kenmore (Whirlpool), Maytag, Kitchenaid, and currently Bosch. To be very blunt, I think one should just buy a cheap brand and replace it when it fails.

Have never looked at Miele or Asko as Consumer Reports used to give them terrible reviews, and I don't think even review them any longer.

GE - Had one good one, although we sold the house along with it, so long term not so sure. The other one lasted 10 years but never really cleaned well.

Kenmore (Whirlpool) - Probably just as good as Kitchenaid now as they are the same company and probably use most of the same parts. Whirlpool is probably a good choice if you want to minimize long term costs. Just run it till it dies and buy another one.

Maytag - Was a lemon. Pump/Motor died during warranty. Electronics fried after warranty and it was not economical to repair.

Kitchenaid - Lasted about 10 years until the door lock broke. Not economic to repair. Constantly replacing internal rack parts. Expensive to keep working. Cleaned fairly well.

Bosch - Very quiet. Cleans well. Little extra work to clean the dishes before you put them in. What will not go through the strainer at the bottom you will pick out by hand, so you may as well clean the big stuff off up front. That is the good. The bad news is that our electronics seems to have scrambled it's brains after 2.5 years. Their service (here in Canada) is terrible. They are incompetent over the phone, and have no idea how to diagnose your problem. Have to call serviceman to get any help and there is currently a one week waiting time to get anyone to come to the house. Even if it is the electronics (timer), they will only pay for the part, and I will have to pay for the service call. The honeymoon is over with Bosch. Not at all impressed.

What to buy?

For quality I would look at LG and Samsung. Somebody has to make a quality product. At least LG has a method to diagnose your problems over the phone. You initiate a diagnoses and the phone captures the beeps from the unit to determine what the problem is. That is light years ahead of Bosch.

When you choose a dishwasher think about how YOUR dishes will fit in it. This latest Bosch is poor in that regard. If all your dishes are very flat, you can put a ton of them in it. If the dishes have any depth you will get hardly any in.

Sorry for the rant, but keep in mind that the dishwasher and garburator are the most unreliable appliances you will ever buy. It is really questionable economics to buy expensive ones. In my experience they do not last any longer and are much more expensive to repair. Somebody needs to bring back the basic three button DW with a rotary mechanical timer.

Last point, read the fine print on the warranty now, before you buy it! There is about a 99% chance you will have to use it.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

ronaka--

Boy you have had not-so-good luck with your dishwasher purchases. Thanks for reiterating the advice about taking MY dishes to see how they'll work out with each dishwasher.

I have to chuckle when you mention LG. We have an LG french door fridge that is an absolute piece of junk as far a quality, and this has put us off that brand forever!


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Consumer Reports is a joke. But, if you have that much faith in them, you might want to check out their reliability rankings for LG and Samsung dishwashers before buying one. Ouch! Also just look at designs like the "Waterwall." Really Samsung really? You're going to add a whole extra motor and mechanism in a harsh, wet, and hot environment just to get a stupid bar to move back and forth along the bottom of the DW?! Which of course won't clean any better since it's hooked up to an anemic pump.

I don't see what's so bad about your Bosch dishwasher experience. It has never been the job of the customer support rep to diagnose an appliance failure over the phone. That is done by a technician on site for most brands and Bosch is no exception. The wait for warranty service is common to all brands, and it isn't Bosch's problem, it's the local service company they're using. Bosch is honoring their parts warranty. And you are 1.5 years past your labor warranty, why should they make a special exception for you?

As for "Smart Diagnosis" it sucks and trust me because I have an LG washer. It misdiagnosed two problems during the warranty. A computer is never going to be able to replace a competent technician for reliably diagnosing what failed and why. Another time, when I was repairing my oven, the error code on the display told me the sensor was bad. I ohmed out the sensor and it was fine. That's when I realized the problem was the board itself.

There's a reason why most here say "Miele" when asked "What's the best quality dishwasher available?" Because it's true. And they learned this not by reading Consumer Reports, but by owning and using the product for an extended period of time. Most products get a mix of negative and positive reviews. Miele dishwashers are one of the few where the reviews are almost unanimously positive (yes, there are negative ones, I won't deny it, but many fewer than other brands).


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Unless someone owns very thick handmade style pottery dishes it isn't necessary to take them to the appliance store, at least not to try in the Miele. Their racking allows minimum 3 dozen dishes as my photo proves (I didn't set out to prove it, I just bought a big lot of dishes at an auction and had to wash them). Everything fits very well and oversize dishes can fit also because the center rack is adjustable. Also, there have been pix posted in past threads of racked dishes with improbable amounts of dirty pots and pants just set over them. Looking at the photo you wonder how but Miele gets it all clean.

Asko has just gone into some type of arrangement with Wolf. Looks like they needed a dishwasher to bundle a "Wolf-SZ kitchen." But Asko is another company sold -- not to Wolf -- to someone else.

For me, the rankings are: Miele, Bosch, KA, Asko then others.

Consumer Reports is probably ok for someone buying consumer brands but they almost always rate Kenmore tops. So why bother? They don't rate high end brands favorably because their rating system is heavily skewed against price. So if an appliance is expensive it is automatically no good.

I bought an Asko washer CR rated as tops. It never worked properly, couldn't be repaired and had to be junked in less than 8 years.

I learned the hard way to trust this forum which gives a far better assessment IMO because you can read and weigh positives vs negatives and get actual long term user experience which is the gold standard as far as I'm concerned.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

I'm going back to the store again today to look at all of them again. The dishwasher that is going to get the longest look first is the very top-of-the-line floor model Bosch I found. Including the currently available rebate, I can get this $1900 dishwasher for $1400 which is a pretty big savings and will more than likely sway my decision-making process.

As far as Consumer Reports, one of the stores I was at yesterday pulled out a copy of Consumer Reports and showed me the reliability graph there. All of the brands I am considering were way up at the top of their ratings., with KA being the lowest ranking of the brands that I am considering (not all brands, just the group I am considering). I definitely believe that CR has its place, and when we bought a new car a couple weeks ago we relied heavily on some of its info. I find it much more difficult with CR's appliances ratings because there are a gazillion different models from each manufacturer, and the ones they rate most highly often are no longer available and/or don't have the features I am looking for. And, as rococogurl says, they are not as interested in evaluating the higher end appliances.

Thanks all.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

When I looked at dishwashers
Miele and bosh had the best reliability. Fisher & paykel had the worst reliability.
The others were all in between.
I took my dishes and pots to the store and tried different dishwashers. The Miele better fit all of my dishes and my husband loved the cutlery tray
I found the higher end racksheld more than the lower end racks and his forward to get the better racks.
My current dishwasher has the auto dry feature with the door that pops open and everything dries except for plastic that holds little bit of water in the corners.

All DW can have problems and my first Miele was more or less a lemon(most likely incompetent repair company and they lost their contract). I did not plan on another Miele but in the end it was the best and matched how I use the DW. Miele sends out factory reps in our area and have been very helpful


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

The best, and most accurate data on Consumer Reports are the reviews submitted by their subscribers.

In many cases I've found those reviews to be directly opposite CR's take on an appliance.

When I see that, I look for other sources for reviews and see if the reviews follow the same pattern that The CR subscribers posted.

I also check reviews here in Garden Web.

As mentioned, there is "No One Web-site" that tells the "Whole Story"~~~~~You have to use several in order to make the most informed purchase.

Gary


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

I have a Bosch 800 and It's great, but if I had been willing to spend $1400 I would have gotten a Miele.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

"The dishwasher that is going to get the longest look first is the very top-of-the-line floor model Bosch I found."

Keep in mind that by buying top of the line, you are not getting better quality. All the Bosch dishwashers use the same basic components. What you are getting is more bells and whistles. And in my experience, the more bells and whistles you have the more likely you will need service.

Bosch used to make a very simple 3 button DW, and a friend has one. They have not had a bit of trouble with it. Ours is a higher end, and is trouble.

The only thing you will gain by spending more money on the higher end Bosh machines is more sound insulation and quieter operation.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

More for me to think about here before I make a final decision.

Good point about just more bells and whistles (and their accompanying potential mechanical problems) with buying top-of-the-line. We bought an AG Wolf range specifically because we wanted a simple machine with not a lot of complicated circuit boards.

Yes, $1400 is exactly the same price as the Miele Crystal model. I'll need to think this through and compare some more; I think if I were to go Miele I'd want the next level up (the Dimension??) that has the door that pops open automatically to finish drying. OTOH, this really is just another bell and whistle, and I could just open the door myself.

I appreciate the advice.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Definitely go and compare the Bosch and Miele side-by-side. I thought the Bosch 800 Plus was great when I saw it at a store that did not also carry Miele (and it is a good dishwasher). But the Miele really does feel like it's built better. Once I compared the two side by side, I was sold on the Miele (much to my husband's relief; he really wanted a Miele).

And this is somewhat ridiculous, but I really like that all the Miele adjustment pieces are yellow. It's easy to see where adjustments to the racks can be made.The Bosch 800 Plus has similar adjustments, but the handles are not a different color, so it's harder to see. I found the adjustments more difficult on the Bosch, as well, though it isn't truly difficult, if that makes sense.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

"Keep in mind that by buying top of the line, you are not getting better quality. All the Bosch dishwashers use the same basic components. What you are getting is more bells and whistles. And in my experience, the more bells and whistles you have the more likely you will need service"

Wrong again. That may be true with some brands, but not with Bosch. The top of the line models are made in Germany and they are significantly better quality than the lower end ones, on par with Miele.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Ok, my appliance guy said none of the Bosch are made in Germany any longer, but Yale says the Benchmark are.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bosch Benchmark v. Miele


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Yale is correct, Benchmark is made in Germany. However if you aren't getting an amazing deal on Benchmark for some reason 800+ makes a lot more financial sense because other than country of origin, a slight difference in sound level, and a slight difference in motor energy efficiency, the 800+ has all the same features as the Benchmark and is still much better quality than lower end Bosch.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

I am also in the dishwasher shopping mode for my new home. I have heard great things about the Miele Futura Dimension DW, and I will be purchasing this. However, I am in need of two DWs for my kitchen. Does anyone have any experience with Fisher & Paykel DW? I saw this in the store and they do not seem as well built as Miele, but I do think the ability to run 1/2 a load at once in one drawer is very valuable. I also like the deep drawer for pots. Thinking of getting Fisher & paykel as a second DW. Any thoughts?


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

No first hand experience. We were initially going to keep our 2 year old Samsung (no problems) in our remodel, but we talked ourselves into F&P drawers because with just the two of us they seemed to make a lot of sense. Then I found GW (and other sites) and while they have a few fans, they seem to have more than their share of problems (which are probably due to a multitude of factors from improper install and use to actual problems of their own). We could have kept our Samsung, but everything else will be new. And we wanted Miele by that point. So I talked MIL into taking my old DW (along with a few other appliances). I'm looking forward to the Dimension. We have hard water, so that was one of the deciding factors to step up to the Dimension.

If I were getting two DW, I'd want them to match.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

"Wrong again. That may be true with some brands, but not with Bosch. The top of the line models are made in Germany and they are significantly better quality than the lower end ones, on par with Miele."

Have you ever looked at the label on one? Mine says it is assembled in the USA using imported parts. Suspect China.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

"Have you ever looked at the label on one? Mine says it is assembled in the USA using imported parts. Suspect China."

Then you don't have the top of the line. I never said all Bosch was made in Germany, just the top of the line. I pointed this out to dispel the notion you posted earlier that there is no difference between the lower and higher end models within a brand. You have the mid grade or lower end model. I'm sure there are plenty of parts from China inside but that is the case with all the brands except Miele.

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Wed, Jul 9, 14 at 16:20


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

I think there is some clarification needed here.
Not one single company personally builds all their parts.
All parts of any appliance are sourced from other manufacturers.

Motors come from a motor manufacturer.
Water valves come from a valve manufacturer,
PC boards come from a electronics manufacturer, etc. etc. There is some input from the appliance manufacturer but many ofd the parts that make up your appliance are "Off the Shelf" The product shell and the interiors are where you will see the most unique to the appliance. Everything else is just a variation of an existing manufactured part.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

"I think there is some clarification needed here.
Not one single company personally builds all their parts."

Unless they are completely lying, Miele builds their own parts. That is why they are unique. Quoted from a brochure:

"Miele manufactures its appliances and parts in nine factories across Germany, Austria, and the Czech Republic. The high quality standards which Miele has set itself are the main reason why the key components are produced in-house. Even the controls for our appliances are produced at Miele’s own electronics production plant"

No, Miele does not build ALL their parts, but they come pretty darn close. According to Yale Appliance, which I've found to be a reliable source, they produce 96.8% of the parts themselves, and that includes all the important ones which are most likely to fail.

You're right for pretty much all other brands though.

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Wed, Jul 9, 14 at 19:02


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Hmmm Interesting...
I pulled a few Miele parts that I had laying around off my shelf to take a look...
Motor capacitor - made by Novatronics
D/W Control - Made by Tyco
Spray control motor - Made by Dexun
Blower motor made by EBM-Papst

These were the only Miele D/w parts I had on hand at the moment but I'm pretty sure the water valve, main circ motor, drain motor, all the rubber hoses, etc are not made by Miele but are sourced by Miele from other manufacturers.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that Miele is a good product but I will change my statement a little. I should have said most main component parts come from other manufacturers.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Now THAT is interesting. Could it be that those parts are for older Miele dishwashers made before they started claiming this (seems unlikely)?

If not, it proves that the brochure I quoted published by Miele and the Yale Appliance claims are pure lies.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Well, I started this thread and thought I'd report back on my final decision. We bought an ASKO, and,since there are not too many owners here (I think), I'll report back in a while with my thoughts on the dishwasher. The combo of the interior loading space with three racks in the extra tall tub combined with the very good price I got for a discontinued floor model made it a pretty easy decision in the end.

I want to thank all of you who helped me along in this one.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

I've posted elsewhere our (terrible) experience with Miele. If you have a LOCAL dealer I know they have a very good reputation here but ours has failed multiple times and Miele will not stand behind it and even the installing dealer won't come out to fix it (they are 90 min away)

We are going Bosch with our new home.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

I also know that Miele is the preferred brand of many who post here, and the brand has lots of devoted fans on these forums (kind of like the Bluestar fan base here). And, I know that many here don't believe in Consumer Reports, but it was interesting to see their test results that said the $2600 Miele was middle-of-the-road in washing ability. Some other publications/reviews I read said that around 1K is really about the sweet spot in pricing for finding a good quality, reliable dishwasher. Miele is obviously quite a bit above that price point. We ended up with a top-of-the-line (originally about $2,100) ASKO for $1,300. And, even at $1,300 my husband started second guessing and saying that this is an awful lot to pay for a dishwasher.

pprioroh--so sorry to hear about your negative experience with your Miele. I live in a major metropolitan area and was not so worried about service availability, and that is also one of the reasons I felt okay about going with the even more obscure ASKO brand. Let's hope I am not sorry.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Again, just for clarity, CR's test results are HEAVILY skewed against price. So heavily, I believe the results are often distorted. If someone is buying general consumer products then there are valid evals.

But CR does not really deal with high end products because they feel they occupy too small a segment of the general market.

Plus, there is a difference in what one is buying when a dishwasher has interior lighting vs a dishwasher without interior lighting. That's the premium in the $2000+ Mieles and it's a singular feature -- no one else has it.

If CR is testing that against other DWs they are testing oranges against pomegranates. If not, they are entitled to their opinion but it contravenes most general user experience at least on this forum and on kitchens, which is even larger and more active.

I paid just shy of $1200 for my DW ten years ago and it wasn't tip top of the line. But it's been superior, no repairs and going strong. Wishing you the same with yours.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Actually the Thermador and the Bosch have had interior lights for awhile now in select units.
I think there are 2 units in Thermador and about a 1/2 dozen units in Bosch.
They also have a cool feature that shines a remaining time light on the floor below the door for those doors that don't have a front facing display.

Here is a link that might be useful: Bosch D/W.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

rocogurl--

I think you are right that CR's uses price as a factor when compiling rankings, so that automatically pushes the Miele down in the rankings. However, I do give quite a bit of credibility to their actual descriptive reviews and comments. This is what they said in June, 2013, about the Miele:

"Consumer Reports just added a $2,700 Miele dishwasher to its Ratings, the most expensive model by far of the almost 200 dishwashers in our tests. For that price you get three adjustable racks, a built-in water softener and a souped-up turbo cycle, among other fancy features. What you won't get is sparkling results as the Miele Futura Diamond G5975SCSF was a mid-pack performer in our tests......With such high-end features, we expected top performance and while the Miele Futura Diamond's washing was impressive, dishwashers that cost as little as $600 did just as well or better in our dishwasher tests. It was quiet, but not as quiet as our top-rated Kenmore Elite 12793, which costs exactly half as much. If you're looking for a high-end dishwasher for a custom kitchen and can wait a bit longer, we're almost finished testing four new Bosch dishwashers. Several Bosch models already stand out in our tests, including the Bosch Ascenta SHX3AR7[5]UC, a CR Best Buy at $700."

And, let's get real, both you and I bought and paid for a much more luxurious DW than probably 99% of the rest of the buyers out there. By the way, my ASKO also has interior lighting, something I don't think is at all necessary but came as a feature of the model. I too hope I am as happy with my ASKO as you have been with your Miele.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Remodeled our rental unit downstairs and installed a middle-range Bosch. It's very quiet; no problems so far. For our own kitchen, we tried to work around opening height issues and bought the Miele with two racks and a "china" cycle. It works fine and is very quiet also.

Here's where I wish I'd done things differently: We have lots of deep soup bowls and dessert bowls. The racks don't fit them very well, and we waste a lot of rack space because we have to spread them apart so the water will reach them. We use mugs, not the typical short European coffee cups, so I had to remove one of the flip-down racks that goes over the cup area on the top shelf. This cuts down on capacity. I chose the silverware basket over the third rack because I lift it out and carry it to the drawer where we store the flatware; otherwise I'd have to walk back and forth several times.

It turned out that the Miele didn't fit into the space we had and we had to replace the countertops, so now we have a standard dishwasher opening. The next time I have to purchase a dishwasher, I'll take several of our own dishes to see if they are compatible with the racks.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Interior lighting is not a unique feature at all, most brands have it on their high end models. Miele does have some neat unique features though like the auto open drying.

To Consumer Reports I say... DUH? Did you really expect it to clean better? It is hot water spraying around inside a box and the only variables up to the dishwasher are how hot it heats the water and how strong the spray is (how powerful the pump is). Miele (except Professional series) has a wimpy pump just like everyone else to save energy. It heats the water the same as everyone else. People don't buy a Miele because they want better cleaning results, they buy one because they want a well-engineered and built machine that will last longer. They also want features like a water softener, a good cutlery rack, and a better drying system. If you spent $1500 on a mid range Miele only because you thought it would clean 2x better than someone else's midrange dishwasher at half the price, guess what... you just wasted a lot of money.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

I stand corrected on the lighting; thanks all.

needinfo -- lovely that you have the lighting. Got that in my new washer and it's been great.

And yes, agreed, we have luxury level appliances, for sure. Spent 15 years with 1980s appliances in a kitchen including one of those GE Potscrubbers that actually did a fairly good job on dishes but was as noisy as my current refrigerator and every bit as annoying.

Did without for years and, at this stage of my life, I want the convenience of everyday luxury and the ease it should bring.

Just didn't have good luck with CR's high recommendation I took on previous washer, as I noted above, and had to replace after 9 years -- 2 with only fulltime use. User experience here often contradicts them and through 2 renos, with allowances for preferences and anonymity, user experience here can generally be trusted IME.

But as we know, everyone has good/bad and different experience and bottom line, these purchases are a bit like day trips to Vegas no matter how much research is done.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Good to hear you made a decision, and I wish you luck with the Asko. I am afraid based on what I know about it, that you have overpaid for a mediocre dishwasher, and will have trouble getting parts and service for it. Price has very little to do with how trouble free and long a DW will last. In fact the more you pay the more it will cost you.

I do have to comment on this statement about Consumer Reports.

"Again, just for clarity, CR's test results are HEAVILY skewed against price. So heavily, I believe the results are often distorted. If someone is buying general consumer products then there are valid evals.
But CR does not really deal with high end products because they feel they occupy too small a segment of the general market.'

Consumer reports tests for functionality. Their overall rating has nothing to do with price. If an item performs well and is priced well, then it gets a Best Buy check, but that is independent of the overall rating. Of course this really irks those who believe the more they spend on a DW the better it is. A DW is just a box that splashes water and soap on dishes. There is only so much you can do. After that you just spend more and more money and get nothing more for performance. All you are getting is more bells and whistles and they make the product less reliable (and more costly), not more reliable. A light in a DW? What a dumb thing to do. That is just trouble looking for a place to perform.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

"All you are getting is more bells and whistles and they make the product less reliable"

When you step up within a brand, you get more features, many of which may be useful and important to people. Washing ability doesn't significantly improve, but drying ability might with features such as auto open doors. You get better interior layouts and cutlery racks. You might get the ability to wash the upper and lower racks separately. You might get a quieter machine, or one that uses less water and electricity. A light is arguably one of the more useless features in a dishwasher, and yes it is another thing to break, but even if it does it will not affect the core functionality of the product.

When you step up to better brands, you get better build quality and better component quality. Consumer Reports does not give a rat's ass about either of those things.

"you have overpaid for a mediocre dishwasher, and will have trouble getting parts and service for it"

What a thing to say to someone who just bought something. I'm sure needinfo1 read reviews and weighed the pros and cons before buying and is aware that some people have had issues with Asko and some have not, just like every other brand.

I can say this much: Asko is far better than LG or Samsung. And you're right: more expensive is not always better. Although a $1500 Miele may be the best, I would take a $500 Whirlpool over a $1000 LG any day.

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Fri, Jul 11, 14 at 16:01


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Yes, I read reviews and user experiences from lots and lots of different places. And, I weighed what I could get for equivalent amounts of money. There is absolutely no dishwasher (including the Miele) that doesn't get complaints from some users.

One of the main things I was looking for was a larger interior capacity with great rack flexibility to fit MY dishes. I got that in the dishwasher I purchased. We also wanted a cycle with lower water temps for good china/crystal. In order to get this, one needs to move up to higher level models no matter what manufacturer. I also like the idea of the fan (not heater) assisted drying. I also got something I didn't need--the interior light--, but this is just like buying a car where different features are packed in different levels of the various models. If you want a certain feature, you end up taking the extras that come with it so you can get the feature you want.

All of us have individual needs or wants when buying any appliance, so we will make different choices. And, as far as I am concerned, any appliance purchase these days is a total crap shoot. Now we'll just have to see how the dishwasher I bought actually works.

On another topic: I was at the library today and, while I was there, stopped to glance at that small paperback Consumer Reports publishes every year. For those of you who are concerned that the Miele isn't getting its due because of its high price, that is not the case. It actually has a recommended label.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

We are in our 12th year with our Miele dishwasher. Never a problem. We were also able to later upgrade to the silverware drawer on the top. If you can swing it, both my husband and I really like it - it cleans better if the silverware isn't all clumped together in a basket, and is actually faster to unload if you take the extra second to place like silverware together. Having that shallow drawer also fits more dishes, as there is not a big silverware basket at the bottom. I also like the water economy of the Miele, and it cleans well.

FWIW, I plan on it working for at least another 8 years, and would pay to have it fixed. If it was unfixable, I would spend the extra cash today on a new Miele dishwasher. While it keeps plugging away, I'm on my third new refrigerator, second new stove, and second washer and dryer - if I could have afforded all Miele back when we first moved in, I am fairly sure that between the lower initial cost back then (compared to now), and the longevity, I would have come out even on all that I have spent, and had much less frustration. And it still looks great.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

I am the OP, and I ended up with an ASKO. We've had it less than a month, but so far I really like it and all of its features. It is quiet, has great loading capacity and flexibility with its deep tub and the third silverware rack (in the middle rather than on the top as in other brands), and it cleans very well. If anyone is interested, I posted a detailed review in this forum.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/appl/msg0712263521932.html?3


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

I had made a decision to purchase a Miele dishwasher. In reviewing the Miele website, I searched for their authorized installer in our metropolitan area; I was shocked to see that their nearest authorized installer in 5 1/2 - 6 hours away. Was sure that since we live in a large metropolitan area, there would be many authorized installers.

Now I am concerned that buying a Miele will be very expensive for the installation.

Has anyone any thoughts about this?


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Unless you have a miele dealer IN your town, I strongly recommend you read this before making the decision:

Here is a link that might be useful: my experience with miele customer service...


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

That applies to any niche brand. Never buy a product if there isn't someone nearby to service it, and don't expect the appliance repairman you've always used to fix your expensive, foreign, proprietary product, the manufacturer of which only works with "authorized" servicers. I do DIY repairs of my appliances and I bought a Miele, but warranty repairs are an issue and I doubt they will just ship me warranty parts to install myself. Luckily because of where I live and who I bought from I won't run into any trouble.

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Sat, Aug 9, 14 at 21:33


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Am I to assume that your screen name does not refer to Walnut Creek, CA? Because if it does, there's a Miele authorized installer in San Francisco.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

You are correct, sjhockey.

Thanks to all of you who responded to my question. I am now more strongly thinking I will not purchase Miele.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Why? None of what I said applied to you. That was targeted towards people who live in the boonies. Miele is the best dishwasher and they mean it when they say anything else is a compromise.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

I took walnutcreek to be saying that sjhockeyfan was correct that they're NOT in Walnut Creek, CA.

(I used to work in Concord and live in Pleasant Hill.)


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Looks like I need to read more carefully!


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

If you are looking for a DW that is perfect and has gotten zero complaints for breaking - then you should not install ANY DW !

All of the favorites have somebody somewhere that have had a POS unit and a run in with customer service. Bosch, Miele , Asko , Kitchen Aid - you name it. The stories are are out there.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

Timely. I am in the midst of a similar decision. However I'm leery of the Miele because of poor service on a W/D installed ~4yrs ago. I'm in PNW & there is no service available here. Only buy-back by Miele if I'm unhappy.

Our local store rec'd the Electrolux Q50 series. Though reviewed.com loves this machine I'm having a difficult time finding owner feedback. I was told this was Italian time-tested technology, just now brought to the US. And the orbit clean has just come out of patent, but is also not "new". Any leads on further information?

Apparently lots of KA are sold here. That's a back-up option. Had a Bosch and didn't care for it.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

"Our local store rec'd the Electrolux Q50 series. Though reviewed.com loves this machine I'm having a difficult time finding owner feedback. I was told this was Italian time-tested technology, just now brought to the US. And the orbit clean has just come out of patent, but is also not "new". Any leads on further information?"

The Frigidaire FPID/FGID and Electrolux EI24ID/EW24ID (including the 50QS) are brand new and seem to be a redesign from the ground up. Electrolux did not have a great reputation for dishwashers in the past; owners complained of poor washability and reliability. However, it's very possible this new line is great and exactly what they needed. You certainly won't find any user reviews at this point, though. If you buy one, let us know what you think!

The only real "proven" dishwashers on the market right now are Maytag and the Euro manufacturers Bosch, Miele, and Asko. Although Maytag is a Whirlpool brand, they still use the previous generation Point Voyager tall tub wash system that works well. Whirlpool has transitioned the rest of their brands including KA to the "Global Wash System" which supposedly is quieter and uses less water but is unproven. GE and Electrolux/Frigidaire just introduced complete redesigns, presumably because their previous offerings weren't so great. Those are also unproven.


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RE: Just back from DW appliance store--KA, Miele, Bosch questions

I'm the OP, and I bought an ASKO. I've had it less than a month, but I like it a lot. This isn't the same model as mine, but it gets a top rating from reviewed.com.

http://dishwashers.reviewed.com/content/asko-d5434xxls-built-in-stainless-steel-dishwasher-review


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