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Miele dishwasher water source - hot or cold?

Posted by livebetter (My Page) on
Tue, Jul 19, 11 at 15:11

How is everyone's Miele dishwasher hooked up? Miele just installed mine and connected to a hot water source. My friend has the same unit and it's connected to a cold water source.

The manual says the following:

- For lowest energy consumption and the gentlest washing of china and crystal, connect the dishwasher to a cold water source.
- For fastest possible wash times, yet higher energy consumption, connect the dishwasher to a hot water source.

Obviously, both are correct but which one do I want? The installer said he hooks all his up to hot.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Miele dishwasher water source - hot or cold?

Hi Livebetter,

I would ask yourself this: How much China/crystal will you be washing? If you're like most people, it's not a lot, so keeping your dishwasher hooked up to the hot water is not a bad thing.

Like you said, either way is correct, and only you can answer which one you want.

Here is a link that might be useful: My Blog


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RE: Miele dishwasher water source - hot or cold?

It is not about fine china or crystal but about energy consumption vs wash times.

People that can afford Miele DWers can afford the extra electricity but isn't one of the reasons to buying such a superbly engineered appliance low engergy use?

Same with other German luxury applainces like Liebherr.


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RE: Miele dishwasher water source - hot or cold?

Unless you have a very short pipe between your water heater and the machine and/or run the tap until hot before EVERY fill in the cycle, it doesn't matter much. The machine doesn't use much water and will heat whatever it receives on its own anyway. Depending on your circumstance, internal heating may take a little or a lot longer.

I do not understand the manual's sentence about "gentlest washing of china and crystal". The machine will heat the water to whatever the cycle's target is anyway. Everything is exactly the same except for cycle-timer waiting a bit longer to come to target heat. What does "gentle" have to do with anything?

Surely they wouldn't print that if there wasn't a reason. What am I missing?


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RE: Miele dishwasher water source - hot or cold?

@asolo, I think it's because the china setting temp would be lower than the hot water heater temp (I know I read that somewhere just can't think of where). Therefore, if you feed the machine cold water it will heat to a "gentler" temp for china.


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RE: Miele dishwasher water source - hot or cold?

Thanks, but still I don't see the connection with cold/hot supply. If the chosen cycle has to heat the water at all, wouldn't the cycle-limit itself control the temperature peak...."gentler" actually just meaning "lower"?


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RE: Miele dishwasher water source - hot or cold?

I assume that a lower temp is gentler on china. I assume from this that too hot water is not good for china so in order to get the lower (gentler) heat you need to start with cold water, otherwise, it would be too hot coming direct from water heater.

I'm making assumptions here. I was hoping someone on the forum would have a greater knowledge and would tell me if cold was a better option and why. Otherwise, I'll leave it connected to the hot water.


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RE: Miele dishwasher water source - hot or cold?

Potentially -- if it draws hot water warmer than it needs for china -- then its stuck with that. If it draws cold water instead, it can heat to a lower "just-right" temperature for china's gentler cycle.

Does the Miele DW manual give the water temperatures it uses for these various cycles?


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RE: Miele dishwasher water source - hot or cold?

"...was hoping someone on the forum would have a greater knowledge...."

There's two of us, then.

I can see "gentler" meaning not starting with a jolt of really hot water. But, jeez, everybody knows about the temperature drop upon entry. And Mieles have SS interiors. The heat-bleed from that acting on the small amount of water the machines now use must be tremendous. I can't imagine a thermal "jolt" to any china or crystal from this source -- unless someone really wants to split hairs about it.

So....OK you Miele owners.....run your tap hot then trip your machine's cycle to allow the fill to begin. When you hear the fill-solenoid close, open the door and feel or measure the water-temp and compare that with your tap-hot.


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PS to previous......

While I'm writing this stuff, I'm assuming we're talking about minimum temps of ANY cycle being 115-120F for the target temp. If we're talking about, say. 100-105F -- where no DW detergent works worth a nickel -- then I need to drop out of the discussion.


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RE: Miele dishwasher water source - hot or cold?

Well, I'm a KA DW person, not a Miele DW one, so I'm not sure...

But according to a current KA manual, its SaniRinse option "Increased the main wash temperature from 105F (41C) to 130F (54C) and the final rinse from 140F (60C) to 155F (68C)."

Not sure if these temps are similar for Miele DWs; I don't see any other water temps given in that PDF.


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RE: Miele dishwasher water source - hot or cold?

@chac mool...

Are you saying that a current KA DW has a "main wash" temp of 105F unless "SaniRinse" option selected? Did I get that right?


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RE: Miele dishwasher water source - hot or cold?

Sort of.

Here's the owner's manual PDF, courtesy of AJ Madison. The quote above was pasted from top of page 9, but temperatures are also mentioned (twice) in lower half of page 8.

Looking now at the manual for my older KA KUDE70FVSS DW, I see they didn't mention a "main wash" temp for that model, only that SaniRinse raises temperature in the final rinse to ~155F.

Didn't check Miele's DW manual, having been frightened off by trying to make sense of my Miele Speed Oven manual... I recognize that might be more to the point.

Here is a link that might be useful: KA KUDE70FXSS Owner's Manual PDF


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RE: Miele dishwasher water source - hot or cold?

@chac mool....

Thank you VERY much for this. I see this temperature notation for two cycles....and I am astonished to learn of it. You've REALLY rattled my cage.

For high-temp scrub cycle it says: "Raises the main wash temperature from 105F (41C) to 120F (49C)."

For sani-rinse cycle it says: "Increased the main wash temperature from 105F (41C) to 130F (54C) and the final rinse from 140F (60C) to 155F (68C)."

These are the ONLY mentions of any temperature in the manual. I don't know how those lines can be read other than to indicate "normal" DW operating temperature is 105F unless special cycle selected.

I had no idea things had gone this far. No DW detergent works worth beans at 105. In hard water, it may not even dissolve. No wonder people are complaining about their dishes not getting clean and their detergent not working like it used to. First no phosphate in the detergent....now, no heat in the damned water? Whoa!!!!

And obvious obfuscation in the manual! From the drawings in your PDF, it appears this KA machine is very similar to my new Whirlpool. My manual is worse than yours. It says in one place under option selections that "sani-rinse" raises the temp in the final rinse to 155F. There is no other mention of any temperature anywhere.


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RE: Miele dishwasher water source - hot or cold?

My Miele Diamante is connected to the Hot Water line, and I usually run the hot water at the sink for a minute before turning on the dishwasher. I use the Pots/Pans mode or the Normal mode. I also know that at the local Miele gallery location (Boca Raton FL) that they have all their running units connected to hot water, and they use the China mode almost every day, where I only use it 3-4 times a year (holidays).
I know that in my Diamante manual it says something about connecting it is recommended to connect it to hot water, but cold water can also be used, through the wash times will be longer.


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RE: Miele dishwasher water source - hot or cold?

asolo,

There is a third mention of temperature, in the manual above. Notice the double asterisk (**) notation above the Option Selections table on page 8 (above the high-temp scrub cycle option). Referring to estimated wash times in the Cycle Selections table, it says "This is the approximate cycle time obtained with 120F (49C) hot water available at the dishwasher. Increase in time results from low temperature of the incoming water."

So water temperatures may be 120F (an approximate hot tap water estimate?) during washing. Evidently they may drop to 105F as well, I guess; in that case "normal" DW operating temps may range between those two numbers.

I'm not sure if this is a recent change in water temperature (compared to my older KUDE70FV model), or just new and more accurate information about what the temps are inside there.

Also, this says nothing much about whatever Miele DWs do.

FWIW, I'm not having any problems with cleaning from my (~year-old) KA, though I use its SaniRinse option routinely.


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RE: Miele dishwasher water source - hot or cold?

Yes, the normal wash temp on many new Whirlpool, Kenmore and KitchenAid dishwashers is indeed 105F. I was a little ...surprised... by that as well. Especially, since most European dishwashers will still wash at 120F when using the EnergySaver cycle.

Livebetter, you already figured it out. The theory is that the C&C cycle washes at lower temps than most water heaters are set at. So if, for example, your water heater is set to 120, the incoming water temp at the dishwasher is still higher than required for the C&C cycle, which, in Europe, washes at 105 to 118F. However, I did a test myself once and can confirm that, even with 120F entering the dishwasher from the first drop, the temperature drop is so great that one ends up with basically cold water after a few seconds of recirculation.

As a guideline, I'd suggest downloading a Euro Miele manual. They have all the temps and times in them and you can, kind of, see how much time and energy you can save by connecting to hot water - although cycle between US and Europe are different, as I understand.

Alex

Here is a link that might be useful: Manual


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RE: Miele dishwasher water source - hot or cold?

@fauguy, is it necessary to run the water at the sink first? Won't the Miele increase water temp accordingly? If it can heat cold incoming it must boost not hot enough hot incoming? My manual doesn't say hot or cold is preferred. Although I noticed the manual that @whirlpool trainee linked says cold is recommended unless they have an affordable hot water source (ie. solar). Obviously different in Europe than here. My manual does say that times quoted by the machine are based on cold fill.

@whirlpool trainee, thanks for the info. I did go through the cycle information in your link.

I ran my first load last night on normal. I was surprised how warm my granite counter got above the machine. I never noticed that before with my KA. I got the sense it was quite warm inside the machine.

Everything came out sparkling clean and dry. When the machine signalled the end I cracked the door open for around 10 minutes. There was minor residual moisture on plastics and some in recesses like mugs. I was happy with the level of dryness as I opted for the Optima over the La Perla and was worried things would not be dry enough.

I guess we're saying that heat loss into the machine should bring the temp down to a more acceptable level for china/crystal.


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RE: Miele dishwasher water source - hot or cold?

@whirlpool trainee....

"Yes, the normal wash temp on many new Whirlpool, Kenmore and KitchenAid dishwashers is indeed 105F."

I am still reeling from this "discovery". All of a sudden I can understand the frequent reports of poor cleaning, undissolved tabs and visible granular residue being left upon completion of cycle. From my own experience, I am suspecting close association.

I run all of my cycles with a boost which, I know from manual measurement, gets me to 120+ so I haven't noticed a difference. However, when my previous machine's performance dropped off and I diagnosed failure of the element to add heat, the measured water temp was 100-107. Nothing changed but the heat and performance went waaay down -- and this observation with zero-grains soft water. With hard water, I can easily imagine additional symptoms.

Seems to me very similar to what they shoved down our throats with clothes washers a few years ago.


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RE: Miele dishwasher water source - hot or cold?

i can predict the future.
DW's will be connected to cold water only.
Since DW's use little water this should be easy.
Come back in a few years: this will be how they work. Cold water only.

In the meantime, confusion prevails.


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RE: Miele dishwasher water source - hot or cold?

I know someone who has had one of these "newfangled/crippled" dishwashers for some while. He recommends Finish tablets, or Powerballs or whatever, and reports that the machine cleans quite well at the lower temperatures (and longer cycle times). As I recall he primarily uses the sensor-wash cycle, which may increase the temp, or not, depending on load conditions. Enzyme formulations are likely the performance key. Very high temps can be detrimental to enzyme action. Kenmore washers that touted their Enzyme Soak cycle back in the day directed cold or warm water be used for the soak, never hot.

My dishwasher has been effectively connected to cold water for 6+ years, works fine.


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RE: Miele dishwasher water source - hot or cold?

@davidrol.....

I wouldn't resent such a change if it came. Mfgr's can do whatever they want...always have. I expect that.

What I DO resent is the intentional obfuscation and hiding of basic information ANY purchaser/operator of these machines should be aware of and would normally consider at point of purchase. As with clothes washers earlier -- and ongoing -- they don't want you to know or consider. All they want is their damned Energy Star rating.

IMHO any machine that uses heated water (DW's and clothes washers) should have cold-water hook-up and heat their own water. I get that. No problem with that, BUT......they should also be capable of heating the water up to a range that works. "Normal" 105F in a dishwasher is a travesty. No wonder there are so many complaints of poor performance.


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RE: Miele dishwasher water source - hot or cold?

American built dishwashers use a timer in conjunction with an element to heat water. The timer is active long enough to heat from 105 to 120 for normal operation and from 120 to 140 for sanitary washes. If water leaves the tap at 120 degrees, temp will drop to 105 in just a matter of minutes, timer will kick in, and water will heat back up to 120 or should under normal circumstances. If your tap takes a while to get hot, the cold water infill will be considerably less than 105 and washing could be compromised because the timer kicks off before the temp is adequate for washing.

European dishwashers use a small heater and thermostat to heat water to the correct temperature. Therefore; whether the infill is 50 degrees or 120 degrees, temperature is always adequate. Also, some of these cycles wash as high as 170 degrees. Increasing temperature compensates for less water and detergent however wash times are usually longer. This design is better for the environment and helps to offset phosphate free detergents.

The heating coils/timer aspect of American dishwashers can not regulate temperature well enough to wash china or crystal.

Thermostats and a water heater can regulate the 115 degrees need to wash c/c


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