C9, I saw you post over on kitchens and clicked over here to see if you were going to review the Kenmore DDs that I remember you deciding on. We still haven't had any reviews on them here.

What I can tell you is that we've had our FP drawers (we have two doubles) installed for over a year now and they've all worked perfectly. It seems that they've corrected a lot of problems that they have had with earlier (601) models.

Hopefully someone will surface to share their experiences with the Kenmores for you.

I'm hoping to hear something positive about the Kitchenaid DDs now because they're the only other ones that they might have at the Sears Appliance Outlet.

They had a SS Kenmore DD about a month ago when I was looking for a fridge and we would have bought it if they gave any sort of 2-appliance discount, but they didn't, so we put off the DD since the current DW was still working at the time. Right now they only have a white one, but after reading the reviews and then the CR, I don't think I'll get one now. But I've got to find something (DD or traditional DW) that will fit the space now. Ugh.

F&P. DCS, and KitchenAid are all made by F&P. The Kenmore/Maytag (?) ones are a different design.

Yes, the early DD's (the 601 and 602 models) had a lot of problems with leaks. However, the 603's and later seem to have resolved these problems.

I have had my F&P units almost three years now. One repair to each drawer, and on both it was the same failure-lid motors. Apparently, F&P received a bad batch (They don't make these items, as I learned on a factory tour a few years ago) of lid motors. The new ones are black, and mine have worked perfectly since they were replaced.

If I had to buy today, I would buy DD's again-they are so flexible.

KA drawers until very recently were rebadged F&P. Now the latest KA drawers are supposedly the same design as the Kenmore Elite drawers.

DD DW's are impractical. Kinda cool, but kinda dumb. The only advantage they have over regular dishwashers is if you are entertaining for guests alot and need to start loads at different times. If you don't than I recommend you get a regular dishwasher. They clean alot better, have more features, and are quieter, if you intend on spending the same amount of money on the DD DW. Kenmore Elite is actually my favorite brand of dishwasher, I would recommend you get the top of the line regular one, which is sensational.

Getting a full size DW with a top rack only cycle is another option for you to consider.

We thought about getting one full size DW and a pair of drawers, but I was reading too many comments about limitations on putting tall things in or having seal leeaks. I decided having lots of loading options inthe full size DW (which was cheaper too) was the better deal for us.

I'm well aware that my experience is meaningless in the big picture of life ... but I've enjoyed my F&P DishDrawer over the nearly five years that I've had it. No trouble or repairs, moved it along when I switched houses 3.5 years ago. It cleans well if an appropriate cycle is selected (obviously the Fast cycle won't clean a grungy, baked-on casserole) and heavily-soiled items are loaded for proper exposure to the water spray. It's economical to run. I've checked power consumption with a Kill-a-Watt meter. The longest/hottest cycle heating to 163F uses about 2/3 KWH (running one drawer), which costs almost 9 whole cents at my current electric rate.

Re: DD DW's are impractical. Kinda cool, but kinda dumb.

I have to disagree with this blanket statement. What is so impractical or dumb about DD's?

Large-size items? I can fit my 20 quart stock pot into my DD and it comes out perfectly clean. It will not fit in any conventional DW that has a center column. It may fit in some conventional DW's, but not many.

Economical to operate, with both power and water.

Flexibility in loading: Had a dinner party? Load the good china in one and run it on a low power cycle. At the same time, load the other drawer with regular dishes, casseroles, pots, etc. and run in on a different cycle. Wake up in the morning, and all is clean.

Capacity: You can load a complete meals worth of dishes for six into one drawer.

Reliability: Yes, reliability. In 90% of cases, if one drawer breaks, the other drawer is still usable. Only one circuit board and two hoses are common in a two-drawer DD.

I could go on, but I don't need to.

Now, don't get me wrong, they are not perfect. But they are the first new thinking in DW design in what, 50 years?

So, explain again how they are dumb.

Does anybody know about water-usage differences between the various DDs and/or the DD vs DW?

Top-rack wash-only option sounds like a good idea, too.

What I think is going to happen is that I'll end up with whatever DD/DW that measures the same as the Kenmore DDs since that's the space we have allotted. The DW that's in there now (the broken one) fits loosely, but if the door is down (open), it rubs when the bottom cabinet drawer next to it opens and closes. This will probably mean hours of researching all the installation brochures online (ugh).

Thanks for all the opinions. I do think DD's would work for us, theoretically, but I don't think it's going to be practical or frugally possible at this point.

Where does the notion that F&P DDs "have a terrible repair history" come from? If one searches for anecdotes here on this forum, one will see that those who have owned F&P DDs have had very few problems with them, WHEN THEY ARE PROPERLY INSTALLED.

Myself, I had my first pair of F&P DDs from 1999-2005 -- 6 years. I loved them so much, they were so practical, easy to use, low-water use, low-energy use, AND they NEVER had a single repair, a single problem. When I moved and remodeled my current home, I installed F&P DDs again. For the past 3 years, they've functioned perfectly without 1 repair, 1 problem.

Based on my 9 years of owning F&P DDs, they are reliable, and exceptionally energy & water friendly. The key is to ensure the installer knows what they're doing, as they do install differently from other dishwashers.

Consumer Reports and various DD threads on this forum.
I do understand that frustrated consumers (and GWers) are the most likely to speak out, however. There will always tend to be more complaints than praises. But when I see statistics (CR), then I give it a little more credibility.

We've installed all of our high-end appliances ourselves, so I don't naturally expect installation problems, assuming that the instructions are well-written. It might be because we take extra care knowing that it is our kitchen and don't go cheap on the extras (hoses, clamps, valves, etc).

c9pilot, all undercounter dishwashers are a designed to an industry standard height and width and depth, with perhaps a minuscule of variation. Any dishwasher should fit unless the kitchen cabinetry is VERY tightly-cut to exactly match the nuances of a particular model. My previous house built in the early 1980s started with an el-cheapo Frigidaire, then switched to a top-of-line KitchenAid, then the DishDrawer. All three fit perfectly. My current house originally had a top-of-line GE Profile tall-tub, which I swapped-out for the DD.

Thanks for the reassurance, dadoes.
We have Scherr's cabinets, so I hope they designed in a "standard DW" when they built up our cabs. We did supply them with the specs for all the appliances, but I think the only non-standard is the wall oven. I think the current DW rubs because it's not really installed; it's just shoved in there and hooked up as a temporary fix.

Cpovey: RE:

I have to disagree with this blanket statement. What is so impractical or dumb about DD's?

Large-size items? I can fit my 20 quart stock pot into my DD and it comes out perfectly clean. It will not fit in any conventional DW that has a center column. It may fit in some conventional DW's, but not many.

Economical to operate, with both power and water.

Flexibility in loading: Had a dinner party? Load the good china in one and run it on a low power cycle. At the same time, load the other drawer with regular dishes, casseroles, pots, etc. and run in on a different cycle. Wake up in the morning, and all is clean.

Capacity: You can load a complete meals worth of dishes for six into one drawer.

Reliability: Yes, reliability. In 90% of cases, if one drawer breaks, the other drawer is still usable. Only one circuit board and two hoses are common in a two-drawer DD.

I could go on, but I don't need to.

Now, don't get me wrong, they are not perfect. But they are the first new thinking in DW design in what, 50 years?

So, explain again how they are dumb.

Ok, here I go:

only the crapiest and cheapest DW's have a center column, they are phasing out that inferior "feature," you wont find one on any unit that is over $350. the OP is talking about double drawers, which are very high end prices. So your big items would fit in 95% of new DW's.

most mid to high end DW's (new) have automatic sensors which sense the size and dirtiness of the load and will adjust the water temperature and time in order to wash the dishes the most efficiently and effectively as possible, thus being very efficient, more efficient than DD DW's that don't have the feature, which some don't.

You can load China in a reg DW, we are talking higher end hear, thus her considering a DD DW. Most higher end DW's have a cycle just for China, or a light wash cycle that is delicate and precise for China, washing it well. You can use the delay start feature to delay it to clean while you are asleep and wake up with clean dishes. The China cycle and ligh wash cycles are shorter, thus you won't have to wait as long as a normal wash cycle. If the DW has a upper rack only and lower rack only, which some higher end models do, you can also wash China with caserolle dishes or other misc dishes at the same time if you seperate them between racks.

Capacity is a tiny bit bigger in a DD DW, ok.

LOL, @ you saying, "if one drawer breaks, the other is still usable, 90% of the time." So someone who spends over a grand on a dishwasher will not care and not want to pay to fix the half of their dishwasher that is broken..? arent I right? If you spend so much money on a dishwasher, you should protect it with a warranty, which usually you can get the guy out there to fix it fast. Though even if not, how hard is it to hand wash for a day or two? It is not a big issue in this debate, which I have won, and will continue to shoot your "dishwasher knowledge down" gladly if you continue to try and prove me wrong.

It is cool though, that they made a new design.

But right now, with the technology, reg DW's are better than DD DW's in almost every way. Since we are again talking about expensive DW's, most DD DW's have a plastic interior, which the stainless in the same price units of reg DW's are better: more durable, dry faster/better. reg DW's in the same price range are more efficient than DD DW's that don't have a sensor: smartwash, econosense, adaptive wash, etc. And the same efficiency if they do have the sensor. In most cases the reg DW is quieter than DD DW's. Reg DW wash better, with more features: cycles, options than DD DW: ie. more powerful spray arms, a high powered water pressure system in the back which eliminates hand washing in some DW's, a garbage disposal in some which means less pre rinsing, more durable in most cases, a little bit smaller capacity, more reliable in % of breakdowns and repairs: the DD DW is a relativiley new technology and still isn't as well perfected as a reg DW. The DD DW is beneficial if like I said before, you need to wash loads at slightly different times, like if you are entertaining for guests and have people over. But if you don't do that, or do but not somewhat often, then I always recommend a reg DW.

I too love the idea of DDs. But when our old DW died we couldn't justify the higher price. Maybe it was an easier decision for us because we had already raised our DW, which made the convenience benefit less and the placement at the end of the cabinet run open to the dining room made the noise level more important. As appealing as the extra loading flexibility would be, we'd benefit from that only sometimes.

We're very happy with our new Bosch. It has a number of different cycles so we're probably getting as much economy as being able to run only one drawer. It's so quiet that we can run it anytime, including during dinner, giving us more flexibility for entertaining than we expected. While we can't run two different loads simultaneously, we can wash the china from a dinner party and have it done by the time we're ready to finish the clean up. And for larger dinners, the low sound level means we can even wash the dishes from the first course in time to use it again for dessert.