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Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Posted by wekick (My Page) on
Fri, Jul 5, 13 at 10:29

I have the Wolf 36 inch DF range and the enamel on the floor of the oven cavity has failed. It was 4 years 8 mos old. There is bare metal where the enamel has chipped off. In the past Wolf replaced appliances when this happened for those who had issues on this forum, even for a person who had double ovens that were over 4 years old. This oven has only been lightly used as it is a second oven and never at high heat. After haggling back and forth, they will give me the part and $325 towards labor which is estimated to start at $800 and can be more. This is a difficult repair and the cost of labor is based on an hourly rate for two techs and can vary based on their skill level, experience, speed, what else they might find etc. This would only have a one year warranty and given the ongoing issues, and my experience with blue porcelain(failue of blue enamel in 5 appliances in three brands), I am not sure I want to commit to an open ended reinvestment in "blue". So much for "decades of service" I thought I was buying according to their website.

Now what to do.

I can junk it and get something else but was wondering if the oven can be cut off leaving the rangetop or if something can be placed over the enamel on the floor. There are people who accidentally melt aluminum foil to the bottom and was thinking about something like that. My concern other than the eventual degradation of the floor of the oven is the glass shards of enamel finding their way into food or being inhaled.

Any other ideas?


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

This could take SUBZERO/WOLF'S GOOD NAME DOWN!

I am SHOCKED to hear they will not replace your oven. They PRIDE themselves on excellent customer service. Haggle on with them-Wolf is being ridiculous!

May be time for a class action suit by Wolf oven owners against this ongoing, known-by-Wolf defect?


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Start over. Write a letter. A real letter. Detail exactly what happened, when, who you talked to and what they said and reference other similar instances online (here and elsewhere) and Wolf's very different response to those people. Let them know this is not an acceptable solution. Send that letter via mail, fax (if you can find a number) AND email--not just one, as different areas/reps often intercept different communication. I'd be shocked, given this company's coveted reputation and previous responses to similar problems, if you didn't get a different response with persistence and a new person to look at your complaint.

And, just for information sake, as someone who just bought a Wolf oven, I'd be grateful if you returned here to report your eventual resolution ... Or lack thereof. (Fingers crossed it's not the latter.)

Good luck!


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Tough call. Products have warranties for a certain period and things break after the warranty runs out. Very few, if any, products give you lifetime warranties. MANY manufacturers say tough luck after the warranty runs out.

Despite what previous posters have said, I think Wolf is making a serious offer by giving you the part and some of the labor. Is there any indication that the new part has solved the problem? If it were me, I'd take them up on the offer and get the oven fixed - of course I'd give it one more try to get them to cover more of the labor. A lot cheaper than junking the range and buying a new one.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

I agree with applnut. Sometimes one well thought out letter works better than a hundred phone calls.

With the quality of things being the way they are, I've gotten into the habit of writing down the details of any problem, issue, phone call, service call, etc. right then when it happens. If by chance those instances start piling up, I have all the details documented and they come in pretty handy when trying to get an issue resolved.

Best of luck getting this resolved, wekick.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

weissman,
I expect more out of Wolf than other companies because-from their own website.
"Every Wolf will have the performance and longevity our discerning customers expect"
"Long term reliability testing simulates extreme conditions and heavy use over many years of the most intense cooking scenarios.
"Wolf products are tested to perform beautifully for decades"
This is a part of the structure with known issues. It is not an igniter gone bad.

You pay a premium price for this expectation.

They have previously taken care of their customers with a higher level of service. This seems to be a change. They even tried to tell me at first crazing is normal.

It is unfair of them to expect me to assume the lions share and uncapped portion of the expense. There is no assurance this won't happen again in a year as we have seen on this forum. I specifically asked and they will only warranty the new liner for one year. Judging from the level of damage, the degradation of the liner of the oven has been going on for some time but I didn't notice it, with the oven being so low, like you would a wall oven.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

This is who I would contact.

James J. Bakke

President and CEO Sub-Zero Wolf
4717 Hammersley Road
Madison, Wisconsin 53711

Phone: 608-271-2233
Fax: 608-270-3339
James.Bakke@subzero.com


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

I would try to hold off a while, wekick.

Why? I think you have correctly determined that this is a "Current" Wolf oven problem, (chipping enamel). We have seen brand new ovens (replacements for ovens with porcelain problems) have the problem reoccur in a very short time.

I would wait to see what kind of finish they have on their new upcoming model, and if it appears to be better, maybe push Wolf to recoat with that material.

As You said, You do, ( or will have) another functioning oven, and like you I would hate to spend ANY money only to see the porcelain fail again in a relatively short time.

Gary


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

I had a wall oven that was six months out of warranty when I noticed the porcelain chipping. Wolf offered me $500. They wouldn't do anything else. My local authorized Wolf repairman, who just had repaired another issue that I had with my oven the week before I noticed the chipping and Wolf covered that repair, told me to get the salesman who sold me the oven and the local distributor involved. I did and they worked out a deal with me and replaced the oven. The Wolf tech told me there really is any good way to repair the porcelain. What part does Wolf want to give you?


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Thanks deeageaux. I am writing a letter.

kalapointer, my dealer is gone from this market and that is a very key thing to have them behind you that I don't have. I didn't think of contacting the distributor though in their place. I may even fire off a letter to the company that sold it to me even though they probably don't care. Wolf wants to give me a new liner which requires a complete tear down of the oven. You can see how the hourly rate for repair could vary tremendously just by how fast the guys work and how much experience they have.

Gary, if the new oven is wall oven, the liner might be different. They said there are "different servicing needs" for the DF as to why they replaced everybody else's oven. The part is already at the servicer. They ordered it as soon as Wolf sent authorization.
I don't see the blue enamel going anywhere fast. Wasn't it you that said that they were going to make the bottom of the oven replaceable? This is what they had to say about the blue enamel.
"Wolf Appliance is unique to the industry in our use of the solid blue porcelain that our customers know us by. Using the solid blue porcelain makes it easier to see crazing. That is why our competition uses flecked porcelain as it helps to hide the crazing that their ovens also have.
Again, crazing is harmless and has no impact on the oven's cooking performance or on oven reliability. It should be noted that not all ovens exhibit the same degree of crazing, as a certain amount of natural variation is to be expected.

I would say that crazing is the start of problems. The constant expansion and contraction just causes the enamel to continue to chip and you have the tiny glass shards flying around.

applnut, I will post how this all comes out.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

It was not I, that found the info about their new ovens having a replaceable bottom like my older Elux Icon does.

I may have reposted that msg from the original poster who found the info.

Unfortunately we will have to wait to see what the new Wolf Wall oven coating is.

It's kinda sad, as we are only seeing problems with the newer (2012-2013) Wolf ovens. I have not seen any post about any other brands (circa 2012-2013) with porcelain problems.
Perhaps Wolf had a "Lotta of the material for the "Older coatings" and continued to use it, whilst the other manufacturers "May have" went to a different cobalt formula.
Only time will tell.

There is a bit of "Poppycock" in the msg that Wolf sent you!!!
People have spotted flecked porcelain on their Dacors, Electroluxes and several others that I can't recall right now, so either those manufacturers did not hide it so well, or we got a bunch folks with "Eagle Eyes", Including you!!, as I recall you found crazed porcelain on your Elux.

One would "Think" if they come out with a new coating for their new oven, that said coating could be applied to any oven, including a range oven, ---now whether they would be willing to do that, is a whole different matter.

Gary


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Dodge, my E Series oven was purchased in 2009 and had the original flat handle, but not installed until 2010. My new oven has chipping already and it was installed last April. I won't let the warranty expire on this one. Wolf really needs to address this problem, maybe their new generation wall ovens will be better. The oven really is a wonderful performer. It bakes and roasts so well, but I don't want porcelain shards in my food.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

I agree with you, kalapointer!

The last thing You need is "An Internal Pointer"!!!

Gary


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

I did cancel the appointment we had to repair this oven. I had an additional problem this weekend. I preheated it for 30 minutes and put the food in(covered!) and came back in 30 minutes and the oven wasn't hot. It was set on 350 standard bake, which I checked. I flipped it to straight convection and the temp was only 250. It then started heating and was ok. I have turned it on 2 more times and it seems to be ok now. I am worried it is a computer board though.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Wekick - any update to report on your oven? I'm hoping they've offered a satisfactory solution.
Maire


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Not yet.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

On another note the Electrolux was fixed with about 2 hours labor $540 total with parts paid for by extended warranty.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Thanks for the update, wekick.

Did you ask about the coating on the new parts?
Unlike Wolf, we have not seen elux porcelain problems on their
ovens built after 2010 or so, I hope they coated the parts with the current generation of blue cobalt porcelain, alto I can certain appreciate your anxiety over such a coating.

Fortunately My Elux, (circa 2006), the porcelan still looks great, but I don't self clean it, and the bottom of my oven (over the bottom heater), just lifts out---something they have apparently discontinued in the new models (DUMB!!!!).

Gary


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Mine took 4 years to show up though in the Elux. I feel like since it was at waist level I saw it at an earlier state of failure. The Electrolux has seen much more use and cleaning than the Wolf oven. The Wolf oven was worse and with much less use over the same time frame. I won't be self cleaning either.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

We're considering purchasing a Wolf wall oven and I was researching the flaking blue enamel and discovered your post.
I'm curious if Wolf has offered you any help?

We've had Sub Zero for years and I'm always impressed with their level of customer service - even after warranty.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

My first post above- They will give me the part and $325 towards labor. Labor starts at $800 and goes up "depending on what they find"-no capped cost. They will only guarantee the part for a year. In light of others experiences with the porcelain degrading multiple times I cant see throwing good money after bad. This does seem to be a change in the way they treat customers. Some have gone through three ovens. There are some other threads on this forum about Wolf blue chipping. I am still trying to get them to do better but we have had a wedding, travel, a critical illness etc and I just have things to do beside fool around with this $@/% range.

You might wait and see what the m series oven is. Hopefully it won't have blue porcelain. Someone on another thread got a ten year extended warranty.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

I'm really sorry to hear that they haven't been more helpful and thanks for the suggestion about waiting for the m series. I did check many of the other threads about the blue porcelain - there's no way I'd purchase an oven with it. There are too many other things that can go wrong - especially the electronics.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

I want to thank wekick and others on this forum such as rhome410 (and countless others I cannot recall their usernames) for sharing about the Wolf oven problems.

I deferred my purchase of any Wolf product with this enamel. I can't wait to read the warranty for the M-series ovens. It should be released within two months. Depending on what Wolf covers (and for how long), I may purchase a Miele instead.

The enamel problem seems to have been happening to ovens manufactured since 2007 or before. I've had a sales person assert that the Wolf oven enamel problem was solved 5 years ago. It may take a few years for people to trust the new M-series.

This post was edited by bend-or on Mon, Feb 10, 14 at 7:05


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Well, 5 years ago, huh? My first oven was a 2008 E series model installed in 2010 and the porcelain failed. It was replaced in 2013. Now the porcelain is chipping again after almost one year. Hopefully the newly designed ovens will not have this problem.

Wekick - have you resolved your oven problems??

This post was edited by kalapointer on Mon, Feb 10, 14 at 17:35


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

kalapointer,
No. I still have the range as I can't make up my mind on a new one.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Wekick you seem to have a lot of experience and knowledge about ovens etc. I am sorry about all of your troubles with the enamel and want to avoid I having the same. I am looking for a 48 inch range for my remodel this summer. Wolf all gas? Thermador all gas or duel fuel? The pro grand steam? The ge monogram? What ranges are you considering?


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

CathyShoe,
I wish I could say. I am in the paralysis mode. I have a wall oven so the oven in my range is being used for storage with the rare instance of cooking something covered and without convection. It will be hard to duplicate the performance of the Wolf electric oven, but I have cooked many, many years without it. It just requires a little more tending, turning and switching around. I am thinking about AG as I still have the electric oven for baking. I probably would not buy any range again if starting from scratch. I would buy components -rangetop and wall ovens, but unless I have a carpenter come in and redo all the cabinets I am stuck with a range. It is one thing to buy a range at $1000 and lose it. It is a bigger investment to buy a range for $10,000 or more and have it last 41/2 years. With components, you can pick the best of each part and your risk is split up.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

I've read many of the threads about the blue enamel chipping on the Wolf ovens. This is such a disappointment to learn this. It's difficult to understand how Wolf could have complaints about this problem going back years and not do anything about it! Has anyone talked with Wolf about this and gotten any sort of satisfactory answer? I did notice that the Product Manual (that's online) had a bold alert instruction that said a warm or hot oven should never be wiped off with a damp sponge or cloth because it will cause crazing or chipping. In reading the GW comments, it doesn't appear that that was what caused individuals' chipping problems, that the chipping just started spontaneously from normal, and even light, use.

What's a person to do when every appliance on the market today seems to be rife with problems and not built to last!?! Although I've been planning for months to create a range wall in my kitchen, because I really don't have room for wall ovens, after reading wekick's most recent comment, I'm wondering if I should ditch the idea and do a stovetop and separate oven.

That said, it may be repetitive for me to ask if there are any fully satisfied Wolf dual fuel range owners out there, but I'd really like to hear from you, if you are happy with your Wolf choice overall.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Someone on here once called Wolf when it happened to their oven and they acknowledged the issue and said it happened in 10-15% of ovens. However, our failure rate on Gardenweb is closer to 100%.

Even if there are people who haven't had problems, this is not a cheap range. Do you really like it so much to take such a risk?

There are other brands that have blue porcelain with no problems. It can't be rocket science. Or if they can't figure it out, they should get rid of the stuff and switch to black porcelain. Function over form, people! They have knowingly sold defective ovens for years. I bet the reason they have been saved from a class action lawsuit so far is their great customer service to most people with the issue. But if they keep treating people like they did we kick, that could change.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Not a range, but I have double L wall ovens. This is my second set. The first was replaced just over a year ago due to chipping porcelain. My second set has the same issue now also. I haven't reported it yet as I was trying to wait until the Ms came out. I haven't checked lately to see if there is a firm release date yet. I'm frustrated because it seems like Wolf isn't taking this seriously. Otherwise, I am extremely happy with the ovens' performance.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Breezygirl or anyone who knows the answer to this question: Is the new "M" series supposed to have a different interior than the blue porcelain (or whatever the heck it is now that is chipping)?


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Supposedly the M still has the blue porcelain, but it has a removable bottom to reduce the chance of the entire oven needing replacement if it chips.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

What hvtech42 said.

If you search around on the forum, you can find threads where we've discussed the new Ms. Mostly it's those of us with bum Wolfs that contributed to those, plus one other member who had been communicating with Wolf during her oven selection process.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

  • Posted by chazas Zone 7 (Arlington, V (My Page) on
    Fri, Aug 1, 14 at 10:50

I'm sure the experience of those this has happened to is horribly frustrating.

Small comfort, I'm sure, but not 100% of the folks on this board with a Wolf blue porcelain oven experienced this problem. We had a Wolf 48" dual fuel installed new in our last house in early 2007, and had no problems with the ovens through our sale earlier this year.

(Well, at least none related to the porcelain. Neither of the ovens had very even heat, which was frustrating for such an expensive beast.)

This post was edited by chazas on Fri, Aug 1, 14 at 10:52


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

I put an E-series in our new kitchen just over a year ago. About 2 weeks ago I was showing my wife the area where the 'crazing' occurs (in the lower corners) and wiped the area with my finger, came away with a bloody finger and a small piece of porcelain stuck in it. Never used self-clean or wiped it while hot. You can't even see the spot that's cracking but you can feel it. Guess I need to make a call to Wolf.........bummer.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Breezy - I would report the issues with your second oven now and just tell them you will wait until the M comes out.

Mistman - Ouch! I had to use a flash light to really see the chipping because of the glare of the shinny surface and the bright oven lights. I was not brave enough to run my finger over the surface.

I have an E series double wall oven. This is the second one, the first was replaced because of porcelain chipping. Three months after installing the second oven I notice chipping again. I contacted Wolf and they have agreed to replace it, but I am waiting for the M series to come out in December. The interior of the E series has not changed but the M has a separate bottom. Hopefully this will take the strain off the corners.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Thanks to all for the feedback. This does present a challenge. Maybe the Thermador Harmony range? Wekick's comment about the merits of going with separate components (range top and separate ovens) really got my attention. I've been so focused on a range, but maybe... Of course, that would require changing my entire floor plan and trying to find a location for wall ovens.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Kalapointer--Hi! I was hoping to somehow find out what you decided to do with your ovens. I haven't been around the forum in a while so thought maybe I missed it. Good to know that Wolf is letting you wait for replacement. You've given me the encouragement I needed to make the call and get the process started. As per the first time, I assume Wolf will want to send a tech to assess the situation and make a recommendation. That will take a bit of time so I might as well call next week.

December, huh? I wouldn't be surprised if they bump it back yet again. Hopefully not.

Can I ask if they are charging you an upgrade for the Ms? I'm assuming there will be a price difference in the new Ms.

I still find it very interesting that four of us who have had porcelain failure are from the PNW.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

HI Breezy - I am sure I will pay an up grade charge since I have the E series now. I don't think Wolf has even set the price on the M yet. Wolf did not have me set up an appointment with a tech. I just emailed photos of the chipping and the rep on the phone told me they would replace it. But the E series has not had any changes to the interior. The M has a separate piece on the bottom and the convection fans are columns in the corners. My DH is fed up with the E series and thinks the M is the way to go. Good luck with Wolf and I will keep everyone posted when we change out the ovens.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

"But the E series has not had any changes to the interior"

That is completely ridiculous. If they think this is going to be a fix to their problem they need to put it on ALL their ovens, not just the highest end.

It shows that they aren't really confident it will fix the problem.

What is wrong with them? Why would you manufacture one of the best performing wall ovens on the market and then let it fall prey to a silly issue that almost nobody else is having anymore? They have already lost multiple sales just because of Gardenweb!

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Sun, Aug 3, 14 at 11:12


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

I agree that this is completely ridiculous. Right now, I have a 35-year-old GE self-cleaning oven that has no chips or erosion of the interior and I use it constantly. And Wolf can't offer consumers a durable oven today? Instead of solving the problem, they reduced their warranty on the interior to 60 days! It's beyond belief. And, by the way, even qualified, experienced sales reps out there either have no knowledge of this problem or they're lying, plus they completely dismiss any negative reviews & comments made online as trumped up. I can barely wait for my new kitchen and range, but to realize that the ovens on the ultra-expensive Wolf range, which I have specified for my remodel, won't hold up is terribly disappointing. I'm going to be watching this thread, so I hope those who own Wolf ovens and ranges will update us. I'm back-peddling right now and not sure what to do.

Overall, it's become almost impossible to find durable, high-quality appliances in every category. We're held hostage as consumers. I've had to have some repairs done on my existing (and very old appliances) to get us by until our remodel and every single service tech tells me that there's nothing that lasts more than 7 years and most only 5 years. There ought to be a consumer revolt, but we have to keep buying and replacing. Okay, I'll stop ranting now...


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Have to admit this thread is pretty discouraging. For $8K I might as well get that classic 1950 Roper six-burner with double ovens/double broilers, rebuilt, reporcelainized and delivered to my door! Sigh.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

mabsy: Where are you getting that they reduced the warranty on the interior to 60 days? I looked on their website and downloaded the manuals and didn't see anything of the sort.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Towards the bottom of the warranty in the use and care guide is this statement.
"Stainless steel (doors, panels, handles, product frames and interior surfaces) are covered by a limited 60-day parts and labor warranty for cosmetic defects"

Not sure what this means but the blue enamel shards are not cosmetic and they are not stainless.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

That must just be a generic statement that applies to other products which might have a stainless interior.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

This is disappointing to read. I purchased a dual fuel, it's connected, but I have not used the oven yet since I don't have a hood installed so unable to prep the oven. I did wipe the oven interior with just water and noticed the water bucket had a blue chip. I looked in the oven to see if I noticed any blue missing but didn't see anything. Maybe I need to pull out a flashlight?

I'm now wondering if I should contact them now to come out and take a look. Wolf has already contacted me for the initial customer satisfaction survey, but since no oven use yet, they will be re-contacting me to complete survey. I wasn't very impressed with the dealer I bought the stove from, so I don't want to get stuck going thru them. Silly me, to expect higher than basic minimum service from a wolf dealer. Guess no trickle down effect here.

Do the wolf distributors get involved? I only went with wolf stove since it appeared at the time, wolf provided the best customer service over the other pro-style makers.

WWYD at this stage?


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Mags--how long until your hood is functional? If not long, I think I'd wait to see what happens after you run the initial oven burn-in. Regardless, the house will stink when you do it. My ovens are wall ovens so obviously not under the range hood. I turned my hood on full blast and left the house with the windows open when I ran the burn-in on my 2nd oven set. It still smelled when I got home. IIWY, I'd just run it and move on to using the oven.

For the porcelain failure, a flashlight helps significantly. I don't think I'd assume that it's failed already even with the chard you found. By the way, do NOT run your hand on the oven floor when you look for chips/crazing. It is very tempting to do, but you may end up with a chard in your finger as I did if the porcelain is indeed flaking. Fortunately, I didn't bleed very much.

The failure in my first set of ovens looked like someone had intentionally taken a screwdriver and gouged the bottom of the oven at the corners. Very strange. This damage so far in these ovens (I haven't examined closely in a couple of months) looks more like crazing with small flakes missing. I probably wouldn't notice if I didn't know for what I was looking. I do think that many people don't see the porcelain failure because they don't know how to look for it.

I don't have much appliance buying experience so when my first ovens needed to be replaced, I just called Wolf directly. I didn't think to get the appliance dealer involved. Wolf gave me the names of a couple of semi-local authorized service providers as my city doesn't have one of its own. The service provider came to look at it and documented their findings. The next day I received a call from Wolf telling me that my ovens would be replaced and that the regional distributor would contact me as soon as they had an exact replacement. It didn't take long to hear from the distributor and have the replacement scheduled for install. Customer service was great all the way along the chain. I wasn't happy about having to replace the ovens, but it was well handled.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Very stressed after an exhaustive few months researching I thought I'd settled on a Wolf seemed to me everyone else had big issues but now I'm not so sure to jump in . I have a house with a big open kitchen (former restaurant/bank foreclosure) that lends itself to space ... Please help what would you guys advise? I cook ALOT and I can with a pressure canner now just not so sure which brand will be the best fit I found a wolf on eBay 48" grill& griddle everything I want or I have a good price on an all gas 36" (black interior)from my local dealer both will work just not sure which way to go my husband says this is my big item I need to get what I want because it's money well spent I just don't want buyers remorse in a year or two
I could really use the input


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Kala, so glad they're getting you a third, and letting you wait for the M. It'll be interesting to see what the price will be, and exactly when they finally come out!

Breezy, with all 3 of my Wolf ovens, I only had to provide pics by email. No tech visit. I found it nice they trusted me. I found it not nice they tried to say 1) no one else had these repeated problems, 2) the ovens weren't made for the use, although not inappropriate, I gave them, and 3) that this problem is "just cosmetic." I got a bloody finger, too, from a difficult to remove, crumbling glass shard. And who wants to pay top dollar for an oven that looks like heck inside in a matter of months, and is harder to clean, even if there weren't glass flakes to gouge our fingers and possibly blow into our food?

I agree, hvtech42... Why not put the replaceable bottom in ALL their ovens to avoid this problem?!

I wish I had answers for those of you looking. It does seem like we end up choosing from appliances that all have problems of one sort or another. Elux ovens had electronic issues in 2009, addressed them, and did something better for 2010, and I haven't read complaints about them since. I read about new models for Miele today, so they might have promise and I don't hear of porcelain problems with them, either. What's the word on BlueStar these days?


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

@breezygirl, I'm expecting to get hood installed by end of August, so it's not too long a wait. I have a small, enclosed kitchen with white cabs, so I've been a bit leery to prep oven without a functioning hood. I still have plywood for some windows so right now only one functioning window; not much in exhaust options right now.

I did pull out the flashlight to see if I could see any chipping since we found a stray shard, but didn't notice anything.

Does anyone know how the crazing and broken shards happen/begin?


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

tallulah201: You're considering an all gas? That's fine! It doesn't have the blue porcelain. The ones you need to stay away from are the dual fuel and the wall ovens.

rhome410: I think the word on Bluestar is good but their new range has an interesting feature in the oven they're still trying to work the bugs out of. It is a circular gas burner around the convection fan that is supposed to give you true European convection without needing dual fuel. They have a new electric french door oven coming out that looks interesting.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

rhome410 - Good to hear from you. I will let you know when the M is available and installed.
tallulah - The all gas doesn't have the porcelain issues as the dual fuel does. The ovens are designed differently. I have a couple of friends with all gas and they love them.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Mags, my theory is, since the problem usually begins at the front corners, where the shape of the oven curves in 2 directions, that the expansion and contraction of the metal there is too much for the inflexible porcelain coating. I've long thought that a seam and/or maybe a different shape might give some relief, so I hope the separate bottom does that, in addition to being easily replaceable. Dacor ovens have a replaceable glass bottom, which also allows access to the hidden element, if needed. That always seemed a smart idea to me.

All that said, my first Wolf had splotches of missing porcelain all across the bottom of each oven cavity. The hidden element is such a nice feature, but seems to create challenges for the porcelain.

All my own theories, since "there is no widespread problem." :-)


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

'Posted by hvtech42
That must just be a generic statement that applies to other products which might have a stainless interior."

This was posted earlier when someone talked to Wolf. I know they do try to convince you first it is normal and when that doesn't work they try to say it is cosmetic.
Posted by gardeningnovice Fri, Mar 28, 14 at 16:28
" I just called Wolf to talk to them about the details of the warranty as it relates to the porcelain chipping. I could tell my question really stressed her out (even though I was not being particularly aggressive). She told me that the chipping is cosmetic unless you can show it was linked to another defect. As such it is only covered in within the first 60 days. This doesn't seem as it would help with a problem that typically show up later."

I think the word on Bluestar is good but their new range has an interesting feature in the oven they're still trying to work the bugs out of. It is a circular gas burner around the convection fan that is supposed to give you true European convection without needing dual fuel.

By definition it is a third element, but nothing functionally like the electric versions that use computers to rotate the direction of heat, timing of the elements and speed of the fans. They seem to avoid any wording like "true" or "European" convection, at least that I have seen. They claim it decreases the preheat time and makes the oven more efficient.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

60 days?!!!! This is outrageous. And a reason I, as a potential buyer/owner, wouldn't give them a chance at all. I have to wonder if this is a company-wide stance that they'll now refuse to stand behind the problem? Or was it that phone person...the first line of defense...and they'll use it if it works, but then follow through if pushed. Even if it's cosmetic, why should we spend for top appliances that get big bare spots in them within a year from a company who thinks it's acceptable? We don't have plans to sell, and I don't choose appliances based on resale value, but really, having Wolf appliances in a house should say something and be worth something. Until someone looks inside? Then NOT. (The metal is not at all attractive or nice to deal with when exposed by this problem..dark and rough.) I was totally shocked when Wolf bailed on me, after providing such good service previously. This is a big step in the wrong direction, and shocks me even more.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

They cannot refuse to go by what their manual says, which is that "Stainless steel (doors, panels, handles, product frames and interior surfaces) are covered by a limited 60-day parts and labor warranty for cosmetic defects"

The oven interiors are not stainless steel!

Sounds like the phone rep was just confused.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

*Stainless steel (doors, panels, handles, product frames and interior surfaces) are covered by a limited
60-day parts and labor warranty for cosmetic defects.

Reading this, It is not "absolutely clear" that when they mention "Interior Surfaces", that they are not including the porcelain interior, I mean , after all, How many regular ovens, (Not speed ovens or microwaves), have a stainless steel interior.

Anyway, regardless of the warranty, Myself, I would wait to see how the interior of their new M series ovens holds up.
Do you have any idea of how hard it is to switch out double ovens~~~~~not my idea of fun!!!!!

Gary


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

It is a generic warranty statement that applies to other products too. For example, the combi steam oven, or their dishwashers when they go into production. They are just covering all bases.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Thankfully, if they need switching, the warranty pays for the manpower to make the oven switch. I have to say, though, that Fisher & Paykel bailed out on me, because they had trouble getting service people in my area to take on double-oven wrestling. A reason, perhaps, to make sure you have ample service in your area before buying. With Wolf, the distributor sent people from their warehouse.

But if you have to take a refund and get another brand, it could mean hundreds of dollars in cabinet alterations. Pretty much every 30" range fits in a 30" spot, a dishwasher fits in 24", a 36" fridge fits in a 36" spot... A 30" oven may or may not fit in a 30" cabinet, and the varying brands vary in heights! I am fortunate that my cabinet maker lives here and was willing to make the changes I needed...but why I still have a drawer under the oven without a front or handle. Haha

Hi, Gary!


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Hiya Rhome410, good to hear from you too, ~~~although I really miss your
"Creative Baking", that you were able to do on the GE!

I haven't seen a "Psycodellic Pizza", like that, since you "Dumped the GE"!!!!

Well, speaking of Women, (or were we)~~~~~anyway,
today is my Wife's "Last Days in the 60's (She will be 70 tomorrow)~~~~but~~~~
~~ Don't tell Her, "I told You"!!!!!

Gary


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

Rhome you are right on target with hidden bake elements-it was tried in the '40's or 1950's by several range makers with same result-porcelain chipping and metal corrosion to the point of burn through in some cases-every maker should switch to a replaceable bottom liner.
Gary, remember the '60's were followed by the Fab 1970's, maybe a good theme for your wife's Birthday???


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re Wolf "crazing caused by damp sponge on warm oven"

Quote from my 1980's GE self-clean wall oven guide re self-clean "HAIR-LIKE LINES may be noticed on the gray enameled surfaces of the self-cleaning oven. This is a common condition, resulting from heating and cooling during cleaning. These lines do not affect oven performance." This oven has been self-cleaned many, MANY times, if you look on angle with light shining just so you can see these fine lines in a couple areas on the top oven liner-ultra fine lines 1/16inch apart,you cannot feel them with a finger, and do not see them anywhere else. There is NO FLAKING, CHIPPING, or MISSING enamel. This oven is 30+ years old, WOLF and Other Makers: the Financial Crisis was 6 years ago, reengineer your oven liners and porcelain and let's move on, while GE may have used Ceramic Insulation from the Space Program the rest of this is not Rocket Science.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

We just bought a new house and I was very excited to see this beautiful Wolf Oven. (I think it was purchased by the (deceased) previous owner in 2007)When we finally got into the house I opened the oven door and the bottom of the oven was disgustingly dirty! So I tried to clean the oven as described in the Wolf Cleaning Reference Guide with no luck. So I finally decided to use the self cleaning option. I was so happy to see that it cleaned the majority of the grease and grime. I did however noticed a few deep scratches. I didn't think too much of it, then the next day I cooked in the oven. After removing our dinner I noticed significant scratches and spots where the paint was completely off. I even touched a half dollar sized silver spot and got a glass shard in my finger. Reading the above posts make me very nervous! My questions are:
1. When I call Wolf how will I be treated since I was not the original purchaser?
2. Can you cook in the oven with this problem?
3. How do they repair it?
4. I do have a home warranty, is it better to go through the Home Warranty?

Thanks for your help. I am beside myself about this...


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

>1. When I call Wolf how will I be treated since I was not the original purchaser?

I'm sure you'll be treated the same as the original buyer would be, but with the oven being 7 years old they probably wouldn't do much for either you or the original buyer.

>2. Can you cook in the oven with this problem?

Yes, but you should use traditional bake only, you do not want the convection fan blowing shards around. In addition, the food should be completely covered so nothing gets into it.

>3. How do they repair it?

They will probably either offer you a new oven at a discounted price, or offer to replace the liner. Both are very expensive, the latter is very labor intensive.

>4. I do have a home warranty, is it better to go through the Home Warranty?

I am not a fan of home warranties at all, but if you already have one it can't hurt to see what they will do. But this will probably be very expensive, home warranty or not.

I hate to say this, but rather than paying big bucks just to have an oven that may fail again, it's probably wisest to cut your losses and buy a different one that is not prone to this problem. Unless Wolf decides to give you a new one for free or very cheap.

Is this a range or a wall oven? If it's a wall oven, I'd wait until the M series comes out and see if they'll help you out with getting one as a replacement.


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

hvtech42 is "Right On" with his advice!

Some of these wolf ovens have been replaced twice for the chipping problem, and in some cases even the 3rd set of ovens have had the chipping problem.

Wolf does not seem to be into replacing the liners as they have replaced the ovens, (when they were under warranty) or maybe just a couple years old.

If you wish to stick with Wolf ovens, the best thing is to get the new "M Series".
They are supposed to have a removable bottom, which could be replaced should chipping occur, but the removable bottom probably won't have that same curved area, that the current ones have, and some folks think that this curved area is what gets stressed and causes the chipping problems.

It seems to be "Still a current problem" with both the E & L series ovens as well as their Ranges with Electric ovens, (IE All electric or Dual Fuel).

Gary


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RE: Wolf dual fuel DF366 enamel failure What to do?

I would try to go through your home warranty first. Read it carefully so that you are aware of what it covers. I have had different kinds of insurance tell me something wasn't covered until I read them portions of the policy that said it was. If you have to pay a deductible, check on the warranty for the replaced part. Wolf would only guarantee the new part for one year and they didn't say about the labor which is the most expensive part.

If you call Wolf they will be very nice and happy to set you up with their service people. I would make sure that they can change the liner in the wall oven before they come out. You are out of warranty so expect to pay through the nose. In my case they would not give an estimate just a starting point. It might be that if they are dealing with an insurance company, they will have to give a fixed estimate.
I would cut my losses and go with something else until the problem is fixed. It is cheaper to just replace just the bottom but that costs money too. My oven did not fail in the corners but maybe there is less stress with it being 36 inches wide. It failed in the middle. It took longer than the wall ovens too.

I only cook in mine without the convection and the food tightly covered. The glass shards can be tiny and the fans blowing them around is dangerous. One of the problems is that it is hard to say when the chipping starts so you have the shards flying around before you realize the oven is chipping.


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