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Miele vs Cascade

Posted by corky1_2008 (My Page) on
Sat, Jul 9, 11 at 0:57

I have been VERY disappointed in the cleaning ability of my Miele Inspira. Finally, I called Miele to figure out a solution. The very nice representative suggest that I change detergent from Cascade to the Miele brand. I had several parties scheduled and felt that I could not wait until the Miele tablets arrived so I purchased Finish Tablets. The difference was amazing after 2-3 cycles my dishes were finally clean agin. So if you are having difficulty getting things clean in your dishwasher try a new detergent rather than blaming the dishwaher. Note: I have no affiliation with Miele, Cascade or Finish.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Miele vs Cascade

Detergents have been re-formulated recently and I am not sure the cleaning results with using various brands in some DW's have caught up.

For years, Cascade in Mieles used to be the go to rec. It seems now, that may not be the case for some of the newest generation of Miele units.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

I have run across several instances of Finish recommended as the best current performer.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

Two or three cycles? That machine should give you excellent results every time using almost anything. I would, indeed, blame the machine. Something's not right in there.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

asolo - I respectfully disagree - since the introduction of phosphate-free detergent, people with hard water have been experiencing problems and some detergent formulations are better than others - it's not always the machine.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

asolo often has good points to offer around here - but sometimes (s)he is way off with advice and observations.

Reality is some machines need to be fed certain things. The world is not one size fits all.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

Weissman....I agree with you. But it's not always the soap either. Over the years on these forums with/without phosphates there's been a lot of chasing after different products when there was actually something amiss with the machine. From OP's description, I am suspecting that may be the case here.

Easy enough to check it out if they choose to anyway.

antss.....I'm not there. I don't know. You don't know either. Just said my bit.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

corky1_2008,

Does your Inspira have the built-in water softener, and is so, are you using it? If it does have it, I would suggest getting the Miele salt and using the water softener.

For the detergent, I would recommend that you cut the Miele tabs in-half and only use a half tab for wash, as that's all that is needed. I only use a half (or less) and everything always comes out clean.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

"when there was actually something amiss with the machine."

This is quite rare on a Miele.

It is almost always operator error.

Now I said ALMOST ALWAYS - Miele's have defective and mis assembled units arrive at people's homes every year, but it is EXTREMELY rare due to the nature of their process.

More often than not the problems arise from improper installation, poor water quality, incorrect settings on the machine, using too much or not enough or incorrect detergent selection.

Now, these things probably shouldn't need a Ph.d in washology to run properly - people just want to throw their stuff in willy nilly and dump in some soap, any kind they have on hand and press start. Sadly even a DW at this price has some directions to read and follow and may cause the user to alter their habits.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

"This is quite rare on a Miele.

It is almost always operator error."

Oh, for heaven's sake, antss! What kind of nonsense is this? Miele has just as many bad reviews here and elsewhere as anybody else.

It's a machine. Stuff happens. It's operated by people. They screw up and/or don't understand.

Your knee-jerk defense of the brand and assumptions about users doesn't advance the dialogue at all.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

ouch ouch ouch. Can I just note the OP's words again: (sic) "The difference was amazing after 2-3 cycles my dishes were finally clean agin"

I took this to mean that there had been a long slow buildup of grunge and then this new product was started; 2-3 cycles of using the new product later, and everything was shiny. Not that every time they put the dishes in they needed to run the machine 2-3 times in order to get everything shiny all over again.... This latter would surely imply a problem, but not the former.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

Has anyone run cost-of-operation numbers for different currently-available dishwashers, figuring in the different detergents and other products they need to be fed?

It sounds like these differences substantially outweigh differences in electricity and water costs.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

I don't know if the OP has been scared off, but if s/he is still tuning in, I am linking a previous thread that could be useful. It discusses DW detergents since the reformulations to minimize phosphates (revised July '10 I believe).

There is also a Consumer Reports brief article that was a follow-up to their August-09 lengthy ratings of DW detergents. CR noted that their previous ratings were no longer accurate, since their top-ranking detergents, Cascade being one of them, had been reformulated to the mandated phosphate levels. I'll link below the free excerpt, but to get the entire results, either buy the article online (if you are not a CR subscriber) or go to the library and read it.

I posted on the other thread with a brief mention of price, and also my comparisons of what are, evidently, the top two performers in the supermarket brands, Finish Powerball All-in-1 Tabs and Method Smarty Tablets. CR likes Finish Powerball; internet buzz likes Method Smarty Tablets-No Fragrance version. I prefer Method, which can be found at Target, Walgreens, some supermarkets, but the Finish Powerball worked great too, and is less expensive because you can buy big boxes of 100 or 120 at Costco, Menards, etc.

Appliances Forum Thread about Phosphate-Free DW Detergents

Consumer Reports Exerpt on Sept-10 Article Re DW Detergents

Method Smarty Dish Detergent No Fragrance

Finish Powerball All-in-1 Tabs


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

When I got my Miele La Perla II dishwasher a few months back, I was SO disappointed the first time I used it (I used Cascade Complete Powder which I have used for years in my old La Perla I dishwasher). Dishes were streaky, food was not removed, the stainless inside of the machine looked awful). I called Miele, I called Cascade. Miele told me to try their tabs (which they graciously mailed me some to try) and Cascade told me to use their tabs instead of the powder (which Cascade also graciously sent me). They worked SO much better than my trusted old Cascade powder. The Miele tabs did work better than the Cascade tabs.

BUT...last night I used Finish Quantum Powerball Tabs, and all I can say is WOW, WOW!! Better than the Miele tabs and so much cheaper!! Very impressed!!


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

My hard-water neighbors agree with you. The Finish Quantum Powerball tabs have made many converts. However, with soft water those tabs would typically be pretty healthy over-dose -- at least they would be in my machine. I like clean dishes but I like to postpone etching. I have soft water and prefer to control my dosage depending on what kind of loads I'm doing. Can't do that with fixed-dose tabs.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

Asolo, I mentioned on the other thread I linked that the Method Smarty Tablets can be easily broken in half, or even smaller if you wish.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

Wow is this annoying. how can things like soap change with time? I figured out what dishwasher soap I wanted to use years ago and now I'm done. I wanted to be done at least. I don't want to go fiddling with brands and taste-testing (literally) again. What a waste of life. I may have turned TKO as evidenced by my willingness to watch 10 min videos of the inside of a dishwasher spraying water around. That's enough isn't it?? To go out and start buying different brands of dishwasher soap just to test them all out all over again ... well, that's just beyond-enough.

Double grump.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

All dishwasher detergent formulations have gone phosphate-free in the last year or so. What worked "years ago" may no longer ... thus experimentation is necessary again. Some manufacturers may still be tweaking their formulations to get better performance from the ingredients that are substituting for the missing phosphates.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

"Miele has just as many bad reviews here and elsewhere as anybody else. "

Sorry asolo - I think if you do a statistical survey you'll find that isn't accurate. In addition, many of those problems are "operator error" - so you are wrong again. Not using the correct amount of detergent, and filling the DW with too soft water is operator error! It's not the machines fault that you do these things. Should it need such fine tuning? Prob. not, but Miele does a good job of telling the installer and end user how to set up their machines - so blame the guy/gal in the mirror.

You are absolutely correct saying Miele has part failures, I acknowledged as much - but you seem to have ignored that tidbit. What I said and my disagreement with you is in your characterization that Mieles have about the same defect rate as everyone else. Not accurate, and my counterpoint is that the MAJORITY of problems stem from improper installs and operator error. This is from experience with a HUGE sample group - not one or two personal machines! So, when you've gone through a few hundred more then you can come back and tell me if I'm incorrect.

That said, those units are a bit too complex and finicky for most people, in my opinion - and that contributes to a lot of those problems. That's a drawback for sure.

"Your knee-jerk defense of the brand and assumptions about users doesn't advance the dialogue at all."

It's not a knee jerk defense - simply disagreeing with your asseament based on 20 + years in the business, and seeing/using/owning just about every high end DW out there as well as seeing many of them torn apart during warranty/ repair calls! Some of my personal DW's aren't even available in this country.

I also think it Does further the discussion because if I hadn't chimed in, only your point (arguably wrong) based on a small sampling and anecdotal reading of GW posts would be aired.

How many DW's do you have under your belt - maybe a dozen? Maybe.

I criticize Miele too, where it's warranted! So, pipe down.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

"....if you do a statistical survey you'll find that isn't accurate."

Unlike you, I'm not in the business. However here and on other forums, Miele owners are well represented among complainants. The most-read statistical survey in the country on DW's would be from Consumer Reports. In CR's latest testing Miele DW's came out at the very bottom.

Personally, I find that rating astonishing. In my opinion, DW's are so similar and Miele's are so well built that that comparative ranking can't possibly be representative, can it? I don't know, but there it is. I doubt you test as many machines as CR does or have done it for as long as they have.

"....filling the DW with too soft water is operator error! "

That is a truly ridiculous statement. So what are you saying, then....Mieles won't work with soft water? What a hoot!

".....MAJORITY of problems stem from improper installs and operator error."

Ah....we agree on something. I should have expanded upon my first response. It was a mistake not to have. I was attempting to differentiate between a detergent problem and a machine problem. By "machine", I was meaning to indicate everything from beginning of water supply to end of the drain hose. Many of those important components are, indeed, install issues, not machine issues.

Basically, I am suspecting non-detergent problem. Still do.

"...your point (arguably wrong)..."

Indeed arguable. Isn't that why we're arguing? As I said, I don't know. I'm not there. You don't know either...and for the same reason.

"So, pipe down."

Not a chance. Nor do I expect you or anyone else to. Let 'er buck.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

"Miele owners are well represented among complainants"

I'm not disputing this - I am simply saying a large number of those complaints stem from installer or owner mistakes! I am also saying that those units have higher quality and fewer defects than other makes out of the gate.

"The most-read statistical survey in the country on DW's would be from Consumer Reports. In CR's latest testing Miele DW's came out at the very bottom. "

Yep - because few CR readers spring for Miele priced DW's so their sampling base is puny AND their testing procedures DO NOT follow specific manufacturer's guidelines as rule. They are least common denominator outfit. They are not the best source for anything in the luxury appliance marketplace as far as I'm concerned.

Also - if Miele's were really as bad as CR says, how long do you suppose they could keep selling $1200-$4000 DW's ?
They've been rating miele poorly for 5-10 years now.

There is also a HUGE clumping of DW's with similar ratings that fall in the sample error or "meaningless points" difference. OS , While there actually be no real world difference ( because of test error) between the 4th place unit and the 23rd - the table makes it look like units at the bottom would be junk. I mean who want the 23rd best DW in a survey???

"That is a truly ridiculous statement."

NO it's not! - Sure it'll wor/ clean stuff - but it will likely eat up your china an glassware and then you'll be on 16 chat rooms and bligdy bloging that "this $1500 piece of German crap that everyone says is the cats meow ATE MY DISHES" ! Then you can have more ammo to come tell me - " See Miele DW's have problems like everyone else."

"You don't know either...and for the same reason. " Well actually- experience tells me it's not a machine problem, because this bramd has few machine problems AND corky's problem was solved with a detergent change. SO, I don't really need to be on site to weigh in on this one.

This is actually what we are disagreeing on :

"a lot of chasing after different products when there was actually something amiss with the machine."

My years of experience and sheer vol. of machines shows that human error shows up more than a failed part and for certain more than a unit comes defective from the Miele factory.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

Ok, you're God and I'm not. Got it.

Still getting a kick out your soft water supply being "operator error", though. That's a good one!


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

I too have had trouble with my new Inspira and crappy phosphate-free Cascade Complete getting dishes clean. Until I run out of that detergent and replace it with one of the brands mentioned above, I find that adding a teaspoon of Lemi-Shine powder does the trick.

Only problem is that Lemi-Shine slowly destroys any silk-screening on, say, beer glasses with logos, that sort of thing.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

Clarification. While using Cascade the mugs I use for tea had turned to a dark brown on the inside. 2-3 washings removed the stain. This is built up gunk. I just send the dishwasher through its cycle once. It does not need to go through the cycle 2-3 times per load.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

corky1 2008...

Still curious,then. Upon reading this, I immediately went to my cupboards to examine my own cups and mugs. We drink coffee and tea every day here and have for years -- morning and night; every day. (Certainly does stain the cups, doesn't it....especially when you leave them sitting around for hours with the liquid still in them before washing?) All the cups (they're white) were squeaky clean and bright inside and out. (I've already reported about excellent cleaning generally. Wanted to get specific in this response.)

So...I'm back to the question. These results came from Cascade Complete powder (previous phosphate; now no-phosphate) and a Whirlpool GU2800 with soft water supply. This machine is, IMHO, inferior in design and construction to Mieles....any Miele.

So, the question.....how come my inferior machine gives these results and your superior one using the same product doesn't? (No, I'm not being sarcastic!) I don't know. However, I have a hard time blaming the detergent.

Then, again, you've found something that works for you....so there it is.


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PS to previous.....

Should have gone further.....

I am NOT saying the machine is poorly designed, poorly manufactured or dumping on the brand or any such thing. I am suspecting something is being overlooked in how it's actually operating right now.

Disclaimers all over the place....but that's how it seems to me.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

Antss' post made total sense to me, and was well-thought out and explained logically and rationally. Asolo, your comment in response was out of left field. This is an interesting discussion; I would have expected something edifying from you instead of your "God" comment.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

Alwaysfixin...

Since you've already said the post "made total sense" to you, I can't help you. Do you, too, regard using soft water as an "operator error"? (Notwithstanding that Mieles have their own built-in softeners and soften their own water?) That made "total sense" to you? I hope you're not serious.

I thought it was so logically flawed and self serving it needed nothing more than a passing joke to be done with it. In any event, no detailed refutation is in the works. I think it falls apart pretty well on its own.

My point was my opinion that there may be something in the operation of the machine that isn't quite right. OP doesn't care because he's got some soap that works so isn't looking at anything else. Antss is utterly unwilling to consider the possibility of machine or install problem even going so far as to say it doesn't matter if he's not there and really doesn't know because he's had so much experience his guess from cyber-distance trumps all others.

I don't have to care. My DW works fine. My DW's have always worked fine. I've owned them and used them for forty years all over the country. Fixed quite a few for friends and neighbors along the way. Never had a problem getting those machines to do what they're supposed to do. Interesting to me that so many people here do -- with so many brand new upper level machines, too. Also interesting that so many of them make up their minds about the nature of the problem before they even look into it.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

This is purely anecdotal and possibly a red herring. However, several months ago I decided to try a batch of the Finish Powerball tabs. I had previously been using the OLD Miele Tabs, split in two. After going through the batch of Finish tabs I noticed the rinse aid dispenser on my Miele DW was leaking. It turned out to be the seal on the rinse aid dispenser door. Evidently it had become worn or brittle or something and was not sealing properly. I strongly suspect it was the Finish Tabs that suddenly wore this seal out - they certainly have quite a chemical smell to them. Cannot say for sure though. For a few months now I have been splitting the NEW Miele tabs. At first I thought they worked great but now I am not so happy. Perhaps there is gunk buildup in my machine and perhaps I should really use a whole tab. I am now thinking to try the Method or the Finish again as the Miele tabs at full strength are simply too expensive for me. I agree though, not being able to split the Finish tab as needed is a disadvantage and I use the Miele Rinse Aid which I like and so do not need the RA in the tab itself. If I do return to Finish I shall keep an eye on my new rinse aid dispenser seal and report back if I have problems. YMMV.....


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

buffalotina,

How old is your Miele dishwasher? Mine is only a year old, and the round rubber seal that folds down on the rinse aid dispenser is still flexible.

I remember a post a few months ago where someone's Miele was leaking rinse aid, and they had Miele send them out a new seal and changed it out, which fixed the problem.

I too have used the older Miele tabs last year, and the new Tabs this year, which I cut in half. Everything comes out clean. I've never had the need to use a full tab. Also, every 6-8 month I get a bottle of the Miele dishwasher cleaner and run that in the unit, so you might want to give that a try to clean it out. Then go back to using the Miele tabs (half) and see if that works OK.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

fauguy: Yes, that was me that had the leaking rinse aid that was fixed by a new seal. Yes, I will run the DW cleaner again soon.

Thanks!

Tina


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

buffalotina,

I remember the tread and the pictures that were posted about the leaking gasket, but not who posted it.
Have you had any rise aid leaks since replacing the rubber gasket seal?


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

No more rinse aid leaks, the new seal fixed the problem. That is why I might reconsider a trial of the finish tabs again. If the problem reoccurs then I would know it is the tabs and I could easily replace the seal which is cheap (although the shipping is not).


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

"I think it falls apart pretty well on its own. "

This is what is logically flawed. Since your are obviously just being obtuse and looking for a scrap - let me lay it out for you.

Using TOO SOFT water is "operator error". Miele's process is to have the installer check the pH of the water and if too high, set the unit to soften the water, if not present - inform the customer their water is hard and they need to have it softened and that Miele has a unit that will do this for them. If this procedure is not followed it is operator error - it's not the machine's fault. The "operator" in this case is the installer. If you infer operator to be "owner" or "purchaser" - well then that's you're prerogative.

If the customer's water is too soft the installer should inform the customer of this and tell them they should address this also. If the customer then ignores this advice and ruins his/her dishes and glasses it is not the machine's fault.

Lets say the customer was not informed, had not read this forum and sought advice. This is a shame and lamentable - but it is still operator error and not the machine's fault. They could have read the owner's manual where setup parameters are detailed.

"getting a kick out your soft water supply being "operator error", though. That's a good one!"

Glad you are easily amused.

For the record - who or what is to blame for soft water supply? The plumber, the government, maybe mother nature? Certainly all of these have a factor in making the water hard or soft - but at the end of the day YOU - the guy or gal in the mirror , decide what to feed (supply) your dishwasher. It's no different than eating unhealthy food, you can CHOOSE to do it or not.

For gosh sakes - take some personal responsibility and stop relying on others to make sure you are looked after. That's what this is really about!


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

I know that my installer last year (New York Minute in FL) did not check the water hardness level. I asked them about it, and was told that they don't have the strip and never check the levels on installation, that its up to me (the consumer) to check it. So I did and got a reading of 6-8 grains, but I have no idea how accurate it is. I set the dishwasher water softener to that level. How does one tell if their water in the dishwasher is too hard or too soft? It would be nice if these expensive units could just measure the water coming in and mix the proper amount automatically.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

Antss......

I disagree with your last response but I suspect the thread participants would be less than interested in why so I will not refute. It seems to me we've both said quite enough. People can read yours and read mine, if they'd like, and make up their own minds about whether or not there's anything worthwhile in them.

In the mean time, corky1 2008 found something that works for him/her. I suspect they'll stay with it.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

I trie the UK version of Cascade some years ago (called Fairy) and I wasn't happy. Didn't clean that well and caused lots of suds - more that any other detergent.

Suds after using detergent with built-in rinse aid

Here is a link that might be useful: Fairy UK


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

whirlpool_trainee,

I noticed a earlier this year that the newer Mile Tab create a lot of suds inside my Diamante, even though I was only using half a tab, and a full tab wad even more suds. I called Miele and they told me to try and use less than a half tab, such as a quarter tab. Since its hard to cut one tab into 4 pieces, I just crushed a bunch of them into powder and use a 1/2 teaspoon measuring spoon to dose it out. Doing that has greatly reduced the amount of suds, and it still cleans well. I called Miele back after doing this and told them they should really look at changing the formulation so it makes less suds, or just stop making the tabs and instead make their detergent in powder form.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

@fauguy, it would certainly be easier to control your dose if it wasn't a tab. I've been using the new Miele tabs in my KA Superba (my new Miele Optima gets installed tomorrow) and I find it sudsy. I've been using 1/2 tab with great success. Not sure what I'll need in the Miele.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

"I don't know, but there it is. I doubt you test as many machines as CR does or have done it for as long as they have"

With all the testing CR does on Miele, they finally learned to opened the dishwasher during the "testing phase". What did they learn? They finally realized the tub was SS not plastic.

Okay, okay, this is from 2009.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

@aprince....

Not sure what your observation has to do with anything but let me be absolutely clear: I like Miele dishwashers. I don't think there's anything wrong with them. And I have issues with CR's testing procedures....although they certainly do test a lot of them....and take surveys of buyers/users...more than anyone else I know of. I think they're likely mistaken about their Miele's performance. There just isn't that much difference among the machines to make sense of the difference they reported IMHO.

The opinion I've expressed is that, from OP's description, I suspected an issue with that particular machine/installation rather than type of detergent being used. OP has reported testing or examination absolutely nothing, so I don't get to know. OP changed soap and their problems went away. End of the road.

The reason I suspected this is my decades long experience with my own machines and diagnosing/fixing problems of friends' and neighbors' machines. Expensive or cheap; old or new; hard or soft water; smart people and dumb people. Every single one was able to deliver excellent results using the product the user was already using once their machine was operating properly. DW's are, indeed, simple machines. They all do the same thing the same way. If they're working as they're supposed to, they all do just fine...or at least every one I've ever encountered did.

The thread topic was detergent. I suspected the issue may be something other.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

I have a miele optima and practically have orgasms everytime I use it. Not only does it load much better than my kenmore budget DW but it actually cleans the dishes. Living in NYC I have very soft water and I suspect that is why it doesn't make any difference whether I used the miele tabs, the cascade tabs or the finish tabs. My dishes come out sparkling clean regardless.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

I'll have what she's having.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

I took a few pictures today to show the differences I'm seeing in my Diamante.

The first picture is what a full new Miele tab looks like, which measures about 1 tablespoon when crushed up.
As you can see, there is a lot of suds that completely covers up the salt lid on the left and
most of the filter handle on the right:

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

This second picture is taken with one-half of a new Miele tab, which measures about 1 teaspoon when crushed up.
This is what I had been using earlier this year, when I noticed I was getting suds.
Since this is only one-half Tab, there are less suds than when using a full tab.
You can slightly see the salt lid on the left and more of the filter handle on the right:

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

This third picture is taken with one-fourth of a new Miele tab, which measures one-half-teaspoon when crushed up into powder.
I have been using this amount for about 3 months now, since I called Miele and they told me to use less than a half-tab.
As you can see, even more of the salt lid is visible on the left and the filter handle on the right:

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

In this final picture, I have used one-half of a older (original) Miele tab that I still had.
As you can see, there are no suds at all, the water just looks a bit cloudy:

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

Based upon this and my experience using the new and older Miele tabs, the older formulation was better
since they did not create any suds at all, regardless of using a half or full tab.
But with the newer Miele tab, I have to crush them into powder form and use a 1/2 teaspoon measuring spoon to dose it out, which is equal to 1/4 tab.
To me, this is ridiculous to have to do, considering the price of $34 for 72 full tabs.
But when using only 1/4 a tab per wash, a box of 72 would equal about 288 wash loads.
It's my opinion that Miele should reformulate so that the tabs create less (or no) suds, or produce it in powder form so that people can easily measure their dosage.
One thing to note, regardless of using a new full, half, or quarter tab, everything still comes out clean.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

That is a lot of suds! I tried the Miele powder some time ago (Miele sells powder and tabs in Europe) and got zero suds. Wow, looks like someone put Tide in that dishwasher...

Alex


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

Tonight I was wondering if maybe my water was "too soft" and that was the cause of the suds when using the newer Miele tabs,
since the box says that the tabs do contain some salt.
So I lowered the water softener level on my Diamante from 8-11 grains down to the lowest setting of 0-4 grains.
I again used 1/4 Miele tab, which is equal to one-half teaspoon when in powder form.
Here is the result:

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

There's not much difference from before when I had the dishwasher set to the 8-11 grains setting
and using the same one-half teaspoon of Miele detergent:

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

At this point I'm not sure what to do for there to be no suds since I'm only using one-quarter of a tab (half a teaspoon).
I don't think I should try less, as that would be one-quarter teaspoon (which is 1/8 tab) as that would be almost nothing to clean with.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

I don't know Miele machines but I do know something about ion-exchange softeners....which is what your machine has built in. I suspect your water is exactly as soft as it was before. I suspect that dial for hardness may have more to do with frequency of media recharge and amount of salt used. I suspect the softening media itself was in the same condition capacity-wise as before and the water passing through it before entering your machine was softened exactly as before.

That's a LOT of suds!

I think I'd clean that thing out and start over again. The amount of suds I'm seeing in your photos makes me wonder about contamination from some undiscovered source.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

fanguy - I once had a lot of suds in my DW (not a Miele) because my installer forgot to put in a high loop and regular dishwashing liquid from my sink was backing up into the DW. I know Miele has some kind of built-in valve to prevent backup but I wonder if yours isn't working and needs to be replaced.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

I do have a "high loop" on the drain hose, so I know there's nothing backing up into the dishwasher line from the sink.
If I run the dishwasher with no detergent, then the water has no suds.
I only get the suds when using the newer Miele tabs.

I have also (twice) used the Miele dishwasher cleaner that comes in the bottle.
The last time I used it was earlier in March, the same time that I got the box of new tabs for the 2nd time.
I've used the original Miele tabs last summer when I purchased the unit, then got the new tabs in October, and then again in March.
It wasn't until a few weeks later that I even noticed the suds, because I had forgot to put something in the unit, and had to opening it mid-wash cycle.

The water softener on the Diamante is adjusted using the front control buttons (no dial), and has a setting of 0-4 grains, 5-7, 8-11, 12-15, all the way up to 70 grains.
The higher the setting, I can hear a small "hum" during the water fill.
So on 0-4 grains, I only hear this hum for like 12 seconds, but on the 8-11 grains I hear it for 40 seconds.
So I thought that was the water softener using more on the higher settings.

When I called Miele about the suds a few months ago, they asked me to use 1/2 tab, which is what I was using, so they then told me to use even less detergent.
They said that suds could be caused by the water being too hot and asked what my hot water was set to....I told them 140, which they said was normal and OK.
I've even run my hot water so that there was none left in the tank (only 35 gallon), and then use the cool water to fill the Miele with, but it still makes the suds.

So that is why I crushed up the new tabs, and use a measuring spoon to dose out one-half teaspoon. The thing is, if I use a one-half of the older Miele tabs, then there are no suds at all, as you can see in one of the pictures above.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

Seems to me you've got it sorted out OK. Is there some reason that particular detergent and no other is what you feel must be used? From the photos you've posted, I wouldn't put up with that for even one more cycle.


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

When I replaced the Eleectrolux and got the Miele last summer, I still had some of the Cascade Action Packs and Cascade Rinse Aid left over.
So I used both of those to start with.
They cleaned OK, but when I'd open my dishwasher, the chemical smell would almost knock me down. I could also smell it on cups/glasses when drinking out of them.
So I used up all the Cascade rinse aid by setting the dispenser to the highest setting, and running the unit on Express wash. I then went and purchased the (original) Miele Tabs and Miele Rinse Aid.
Once I tried those, no more chemical smell, and all the cookware, dishes, and glasses had a nice "shine" to them. No problems.
When I used those tabs up, I went to buy more in October, but that is when they had the new tabs that are phosphate free. I cut them in half and washed with those.
When I ran out in March, I got another box of the same.
It was then a week or two later that I had a dish that I forgot to put in the unit, so I opened it up during the wash cycle and saw the suds. I knew that the original tabs did not make suds, since I occasionally had to open it up in the cycle to add something.

So the main reason I've stayed using the Miele detergent is that they clean well, don't produce a chemical smell, and supposedly are made to work well with the Miele dishwasher.

But I agree that they should not be producing suds like this.

I would be curious to know if other people who are using the new tabs are getting suds during their wash cycles???


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RE: Miele vs Cascade

Since my Miele Diamante dishwasher started working again today after having it unplugged since Friday,
I decided to purchase and try the Method Smarty detergent tabs.

Here is what half of a Method tab looks like
after it is the wash cycle for 10 minutes:

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

I then drained the unit, ran two rinses so it would be cleared out.
Then I used a full tab, and this is what it looks like after 10 minutes:

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

So there is more visible coloration to the water when using a full Method tab,
but there are no suds, unlike the newer Miele tabs (see the other pictures shown in this thread).

After dinner tonight, I ran the dishwasher in the regular Normal cycle and used half of a Method tab.
I checked it mid-cycle, no suds, and items were looking clean.
After it was all done with the wash, rinse, and drying, I inspected the items, and everything looked clean.
In fact, everything looked as clean as when I would use the Miele tabs....except no suds during the wash cycle.

I'll continue to use this bag of 20 Method tabs and see if they keep working well.
If they do, then I'll buy more and not use the Miele tabs any longer.


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