Cat Mom
Sorry I didnt' see your question in the other thread. I don't seem to have any problem with putting large containers in the middle rack. If you check out the pictures I posted you will see some large deep plastic containers placed over glasses.

Perhaps you are loading containers larger than this, but if they are large and flat they may be able to go along the right side of the lower rack like I have my cutting board.

Something else I do involves deciding what cycle I am going to use. For the most part I use the sensor cycle since it figures out what to do, but when I don't use the sensor cycle my process always goes like this:

If the load is not very dirty but it is large and I have objects piled on top of each other I will:
Use detergent in the prewash cup
or
Use more detergent
Or
Use a more intense cycle(this provides more time and more heat)
Or do all of the above

If the load is large and dirty I will always use the prewash cup and use a intensive cycle like heavy soil, pots and pans. If you are using a hard tab you don't get a chance to use the prewash cup. If using one that can be broken you can place 1/2 of it in the prewash cup.

If the load is small and not dirty I will not use the prewash cup, and may just let it wait until I have a larger load or I will only use a small amount of detergent in the main cup.

If the load is small and dirty I will just use a regular cycle but also add detergent to the prewash cup.

So when you have loads where the DW is packed you might try using a more intense hotter cycle and a prewash and see if this helps.

One thing I like about using powders is the chance to use the prewash cup. When I use it and then look at the dishes after the first fill it seems to me that more dirt has been removed than just a rinse without any detergent.
This is one reason I was trying to get Miele DW detergent in powder form.

For this past week I have been doing a rinse hold if I am not going to do a full load. I have also been using Electrasol powder and using the prewash. What I see is that when using the sensor cycle - the cycle is shorter.

On one load last week the main wash only lasted 28 minutes and the last rinse lasted 15. This is a reduction in cycle time..but I had done the rinse hold and used the prewash cup. Yesterday the wash only lasted 19 minutes...this doesn't count because I didn't have any dishes in the bottom rack..only the middle and cutlery tray but I did use the prewash cup and there was a water change between the prewash and main wash. Still doesn't count because it was a half load.

I also found that on some of the loads the machine skiped the water change between the prewash and wash so it actually didn't use that much more water than if I hadn't done the rinse hold.

None of this matters if you are not using a sensor cycle, but what I am wondering is if there is an actual advantage to using the rinse hold(other than not having smelling dishes) and also using detergent in the prewash cup. I am still checking this out. Maybe it is the Electrasol Powder????

Rolls:

I didn't see any difference in drying either not even with plastic(don't have much trouble with this anyway) and I am not sure I need more zinc in my body either. I guess I might care if I was washing crystal but for everyday glasses?? Nah

No sensor wash on the Optima.

I've only noticed stuff left on the cutlery or items in the cutlery tray, not the middle rack, and it seems to happen only when we've placed one of those above mentioned containers in the middle rack. Since the spray arm is under the middle rack, it would make sense that a large, flattish item would block the water spray from reaching items in the uppermost tray. Sucky, but sense-making!

When I have the time/inclination to wash any necessary cutlery pieces by hand after running the DW, I'll try placing a large bowl in the middle rack with gooky stuff up top, and see what happens.

Cat Mom
Yeah I know not all models have the sensor wash, but what I was mentioning was really about using detergent in the prewash cup. I figure if the sensor wash period is being shortened as a result of using the prewash cup, maybe it is not a bad idea to always use a bit of detergent in this cup and I am wondering if doing that would help your situation in the cutlery tray...probably not I guess.

I have not had this blockage problem but maybe I don't have the right size container that would cause it.
I am not sure I have ever seen the Rubbermaid flat thing you mentioned. I went to the RM web site but the only thing I saw was a big multi-sectioned storage/serving plate. Is this what you are talking about?

Cat_mom, I haven't noticed that with the cutlery in my Optima, but I tend to load the cutlery on the left side and bottom right, and save the back right for larger items. If I have bigger items in the middle rack, they would tend to be on the right side, so maybe that is why.

Well, I guess you could say the Optima has a sensor wash of sorts. It does vary the time it takes to wash, based on how dirty the water is. When I wash on normal, the estimated time at start shows how long the last wash took, and it's always different (usually between 2:03 and 2:12). I've never tried to use detergent in the prewash cycle. I might try it and see if it shortens the wash time, just out of curiosity.

jerrod and sharon_s--if I think of it this week, I'll try to take/post a pic of the container. Stuff left on some of the spoons (which are always loaded on the right side, towards the front of the tray) and possibly knives (can't remember--but they are loaded on the right side, towards the middle-back of the tray) seemed to coincide with the washing of the larger containers (maybe even a saucepan or pot lid?) placed in the middle rack, but not with the smaller items. Even when loading a bunch of smaller containers in the middle rack would allow water to get up through and between the edges of the different containers, I guess.

I also try/tried to load the bigger containers towards the back of the middle rack since the back part of the cutlery tray is usually empty or at least emptier.

Thanks Cat_mom I would like to see this container.

Sharon_S

Although the Optima doesn't have "sensor cycles" like the Excella and Laperla it does have a sensor that is used to determine the soil level, and adjust the water temperature and time. So it still determines how dirty the load is and makes adjustments.

Here is an article that may be of interest:

Filming and etching on glasses

Jerrod, I thought I just said that. ;-)

Sharon S

My above comment should have been addressed to Cat_mom because she was the one who said No sensor wash on the Optima, but after reviewing the post I do see you mention that the Optima has a sensor of sorts. I am sorry I missed your comment.

Often times features of the LaPerla or Excella are discussed but not so much about the Optima so I was mentioning that it too has sensors and can adjust the temperature and cycle and know the soil level it is dealing with. Again sorry I initally missed your statement since you said that as well.

I am very curious about how the optima works.

I am curious about how the optima fills. Does it draw some water, spray it around a bit, stop the spray and then restart the spray while the water continues to run in?

Appliance advisor.com is mentioned in the thread "Why not buy appliances made for appliance stores." AA.com has an article about diswashers and detergents and they discourage the use of tab detergents.

I was at Wal Mart today and saw Electrasol 3 in 1 tabs with a red powerball. It is called a "Pre Soaking" Powerball.
Has anyone here seen or tried these?

Jerrod: I know you have been a fan of the Electrasol Tabs before. Are you going to try these??

I bought some but it will be a few days before I have a load to wash. Before with the tabs with the Jet Dry Ball they would suds up in mine so I just never used them. Thought since this isn't a Jet Dry Ball anymore I would see if they suds this time around. It says now that the Jet Dry is in the blue layer. Maybe just the same as before with a different color ball?

Oh gawd don't tell me.

I went to the ElectraSol web site and there they were. The tabs with the presoaking red power ball. I wonder what part of the cycle this presoaking is supposed to take place. Since it is released into the wash I guess it can only work in that phase.

I still have two boxes of Electrasol tabs left. I have been using Electrasol powder for the last two weeks with excellent results but if you open the door during the wash you will get a whiff of that swimming pool chlorine odor. No odor left after the rinse though.

Nowadays seems that DW do a good job and I wonder if the detergent manufacturers are scrambling to find ways to differentiate their products and so are coming up with all of this perhaps unnecessary new product. Seems like the addition of enzymes had a lot to do with this, although Electrasol Powder seems to clean just as well without them.

I hope these are softer and will dissolve at lower temperatures because this is the tab brand that had trouble dissolving in a wash that was using a low temperature(although I guess I should have set the detergent selector to tab--so I guess that was my fault). I think the current ElectraSol tabs say the water must be between 125F and 140F, the powder just says optimal is 140F. I can't find Cascade action pacs saying anything about water temp but it is really powder and not a tab.
No mention of temp with the Miele tabs either although they do say it works in cold water and I have dissolved them in water around 100F.

I really wish some of these formula's were in powder form and not a tab so I could adjust the dosage. I was going to order Miele DW powder from the UK but then saw that they will not ship outside of the UK...so no luck with that although the tab can be split so not so much of a problem with that I guess.

Do you know how hard your water is?

Well I am rambling so----Yeah I really do like Electrasol so I am going to try these red ball tabs when I see them at the store. I wonder if the red ball smells like a cherry, or cinnamon...I am easily amused! I just don't know where I'm gonna store em.

Jerrod asked:

"I am curious about how the optima fills. Does it draw some water, spray it around a bit, stop the spray and then restart the spray while the water continues to run in?"

You know, I have no idea. The machine is so quiet that I have no idea what it is doing. I'll try and pay attention to it on the next load. My husband will think I've gone off the deep end!

This is a *fascinating* thread!

I love all the measured experiments y'all have conducted. But I noticed that you haven't done anything with less conventional detergents. I have an old Whirlpool which came with the house and use Seventh Generation powder and no rinse aid. My dishes come out clean and dry :) And there's no bleach :) The difference between clean and clear on the glasses and truly sparkling is leaving them to cool down in the machine. I don't know why this is. But they do sparkle more.

Pllog

Hmm maybe I could try that too(ok kill me...now). I can get Ecover products at the store a few blocks from me. Is this made by Ecover?

This could really be interesting because I will certainly give it one of my Au gratin loads that sits for 2 days before washing and without a rinse hold. I use a glass casserole to make it so this and all of the dishes/utensils it comes in contact with go into the load.

If I find it I will try it.

Pllog

Ok I did some searching and see that Seventh Generation is made by the Seventh Generation Co. I still think this is the stuff that is at the market near me.

I went to the Drugstore.com(I think) site where I can buy a box for $6.45. They also had 5 pages of reviews. Many pages of good reviews but before I try this I want to ask you about a recurring problem I see in the negative reviews. There are always going to be negative or neutral reviews about products because not everyone or their conditions are the same.

It seemed like many of the negative ones mentioned undissolved powder detergent sometimes all over the dishes and inside of the DW? Has this ever happened to you?

Also what cycle are you using in your DW and do you know the temperature of the water the cycle is using?

Jerrod6,

Seventh Generation and Ecover are different products. I do most of my shopping at Whole Foods and they carry both brands, though not the full lines of either. I haven't used the Ecover dishwasher detergent. I grew up using Cascade and first picked up the Seventh Generation about 12 years ago when I was plumb out and didn't have time to go to another store. Then I found that it seemed to clean better than the Cascade without having to worry about getting it on my hands (Cascade hurts! And we use Electrosol gel for removing dye from cloth :) ) Add that to knowing it's better not to be using all those toxic chemicals and I've used it ever since. (Of course, we have chlorine in the water :) )

I don't know if the Seventh Generation will withstand your two day old au gratin test. If I don't want to wash that kind of stuff right away I tend to fill it with water and let it soak, which is a habit left over from life abroad with no appliances (unless you count a gas ring off a bottle and a solar water heater). Your test might actually need the bleach! I'd love to know the results if you try.

I have once in awhile had a little undissolved powder (a few grains, easily brushed off), but rarely. I'm not sure what causes it, but wild speculation says it could be all the hot water used up before the dishwasher started or maybe the detergent box absorbed too much ambient moisture. Or maybe too much powder/not enough dirt. I don't know what temperature the cycle is, and I use the "Normal" cycle most of the time.

plllog

Whole Foods is the market that is a few blocks from my home and this is where I thought I saw it. I normally do not rinse or soak anything just scrape and yes stuff normally sits until I start the DW, so I agree it will be interesting to see what happens. I guess I will try it on all of my different loads.

Also I now see that your name is spelled with 3 L's and not two. Sorry for my mistake. This is a result of a kind of vision problem I have with any letter or number that is repeated consecutively. I can usually do ok if it is there twice, but above that I cannot tell how many times it is repeated. Well I can tell but it is extremely difficult unless I use my finger or a thin pencil point to try to break it down and count them individually and even then sometimes the entire thing just becomes confused and I have to repeat the process several times... I know this sounds crazy but I have had this problem for a long long time. I have astigmatism and maybe this is a symptom of that I dunno. It will probably get worse as I grow older. I will have to have a credit card the size of a book!

What dosage does 7th generation recommend for a normal load?

jerrod6,

Thank-you for making me giggle about dishwashing detergent! :D Here's stuff from the package: "Seventh Gerneration free & clear Automatic Dishwashing Detergent. non-toxic, no phosphates, no chlorine bleach, no dyes or artificial fragrances, no NTA or EDTA, safe for septic and greywater systems, not tested on animals, no animal ingredients. Unlike many conventional cleaning products, we use only those ingredients that do not pose any chronic health risks and are safe for the environment. Ingredients: Water softeners (sodium carbonate, citric acid), cleaning and water spot prevention agents (coconut based surfactant, non-toxic polymers), china and dishwasher protection agent (sodium silicate), processing and flow aids (sodium chloride [a natural salt], sodium sulfate), multiple soil/stain removers (sodium perborate, non-animal derived enzymes). 1-800-456-1191 (9-5 est). www.seventhgeneration.com"

There's stuff about why phosphates and chlorine bleach are bad. It explains that even though it's non-toxic it's bad to swallow, and it's bad to get powder in your eyes, and what to do if you do either. The box is recycled and recyclable.

It doesn't say anything about how much to use other than the duh: "Fill dispenser cups completely for hard water or heavily soiled loads. Use less for soft water or light loads. A rinse aid is recommended for very hard water."

I don't know the hardness number of our water, but it's not soft and not hard like well water. For a normal run I just fill the covered compartment. If I have a really yucky load I fill the open compartment as well.

Don't worry about the l's. I knew who you meant :) It's a good screen name because it's never taken. Call me JC and you won't have to count :)

Okay, I tried to find out a measure for our water hardness online (couldn't find anything searching our water company), and after wading through treatises on flocculation and advertisements for water softeners, I finally found a neatly written article which defines the difference between the German definition of water hardness and the U.S. definition (calcium oxide vs. calcium carbonate), and thought I was getting somewhere, until it showed a little chart which called our water liquid rock :) I finally did find this: 6.1 mg/l magnesium and 23.8 mg/l calcium, a few miles from my house, which comes out as slightly hard on one chart and soft on the USGS, but on the USGS map it's back to liquid rock. So, I tried the EPA which linked me to the local water district report which has readings a little higher than the university study I got the first numbers from, but gives an average of 4.3 grains per gallon, and calls that the low end of medium-hard. Which is what I said to begin with! As in the shampoo washes out of my hair without leaving stickiness, but soap lathers. And the dishes comes clean :)

To test your water hardness,you can go to a pet store and visit the fish section;they will have a test strip that checks several things,including water hardness. These generally cost about $10 for 10 test strips.

Thanks
According to our water company the PPM in my area ranges between 7 and 14 throughout the year. My DW will report the hardness after every run if you go into the menu, and it reports in D. The range so far has been between 6 and 15D. What does this translate in PPM?

Jobird, Great advice but difficult at 1 a.m. on a Sunday :)

Jerrod6, last night I found all kinds of conversions betweeen ppm (parts per million), grains/gallon, mg/l (milligrams per litre), meq/l (milliequivelent/litre), dH (Deutsche Härte (German degrees), and Wikipedia has some more degree units I didn't find in use, but none of them are "D"! Nor is it here which has those other degrees in a very useful table: http://www.aqua-correct.com/DK1SKW/uk-waterhardness-tabel.html. (There's also a very handy calculator at http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7130/hardness.html, which I found after I'd done all the arithmetic in my head!) Does it say in your manual?

Oh! Higher in the thread you talk about dH, so if D=dH, then by the above table 10 dH = 179 ppm, or about 8 grains per gallon, which is "hard" by most definitions.

Does soap lather? As in make foam when you rub it? That's supposed to be the basic test. It doesn't do it in hard water, which is why they make Zest :) Or something like that...

Jerrod: Used the new tabs last night. Everything was clean as usual. The only thing I notice with different detergents is stainless steel pots/pans. Sometimes mine will have a white pattern in the bottom. You can use a little vinegar and it comes right out, but when I use Amway dish detergent I never have the white in the pans. It isn't like anything the detergent does to the pan, I think it is high heat maybe that sometimes causes this??(from the stove)

I did notice that these tabs didn't suds up like the ones with the jet dry ball. I tested my water once with those strips and mine was 3 grains.

Also,I had bought the jet dry Turbo. I like it real well. It does have a smell but nothing I smell on the dishes. I have mine set on 2 and for me the test of how well rinse aids work is to use the no-heat dry. Mine sit all night after they finish but sometimes they dont run till midnight. All of them are dry even on no heat. Mine dry better with the Turbo than the regular jet dry. On heated dry there sure is no difference. I determine this by plastics(gladware,rubbermaid). I also think some of the detergents really help with the drying somehow.

Get you some "Redball Tabs" and try them out. I think you will like them. Did you ever have suds with the JDTabs(ball)

You know what? I am confused.
I think the report was listed in ppm but it may have been listed in gr/gl and I trashed it last month because we are due for a new one..... so at the moment I don't know WHAT I am talking about.

The DW is showing it as d and the value has been between 6 and 15. Maybe d is the same thing as DH.

Ok I found last years report online.

It says that in my area the water hardness ranges from 6 grains they say this is 105ppm to 12 grains they say this is 208ppm..

I also found a site(best.fish.com) that is saying that there are two units commonly used in measuring hardness:

German Degrees of Hardness(dH) and Parts Per Million(ppm)

So when I go into the DW menu and select the water hardness display it only shows the number and a d. I suspect the DW is just leaving the H off of the display since you are in the menu option that checks Water Hardness in the first place.

I went shopping yesterday and looked for Seventh Generation DW powder.
Whole Foods has Seventh Generation Products but no DW detergent. They did however have Ecover DW Detergent.

Walked in the opposite direction to the other organic food Store. They had Seventh Generation products but only carried Ecover DW detergent. Today I ordered a box from Drugstore.com and see that it has just been shipped.

I had a hard time trying to find new ElectraSol tabs with the red PowerBall but eventually found it in a Target store. Unfortunately they only carried the large box containing 55 tabs. In any other situation this would be bliss, but after buying this box I now have a house full of 295 DW detergent tablets. I hope no one takes a close look.

I compared the new box to the old.

The description on the box with the white powerball says "3 in 1 with Jet-Dry Rinse Agent."The description on the box with red powerball says "3 in 1 100% clean plus Jet Dry Shine."

The White power ball tablet description reads:
Power ball "Jet-Dry Powerball Rinse Agent helps eliminate spots and film"
Blue layer "PreSoakers naturally break down stubborn food stains like pasta and oatmeal"
White layer "Detergent removes even the toughest stains and gently scrubs your dishes, glasses and silverware sparkling clean."

The Red power ball tablet description reads:
Power ball "The revolutionary Pre-Soaking Powerball bursts into action to help soften the toughest food residues like baked-on lasagna and dried-on oatmeal for easy removal."
Blue Layer " Jet-Dry Rinse Agent Action helps rinse away residues, eliminating spots and film for a sparkling shine."
White Layer "Powerful Cleaners remove even the toughest stains like coffee and tea and gently scrub your dishes, glasses, and silverware sparkling clean."

My thoughts about the description: All of this sounds like the same thing, but I wonder if this stuff actually has Jet-Dry rinse agent in it? There is mention of Jet-Dry rinse agent ACTION, but having the action is not the same thing as actually having the product in it.

Next I did my warm water 1 gal bucket test on each tab.
I placed both tabs in warm water, let them sit for several minutes, and watched them dissolve. Then I swirled the water around them so that the tab remained in the center while the water moved around them. I do this so that I don't touch the tab but this keeps them in moving water. Next I agitated the water so that the tab would get moved around and broken apart a bit.

I repeated the same procedure with another set of tabs but this time used water that was too hot to keep my hands in.

Both tabs dissolved better in the hot water. I did notice that at the end there was a lot of the white powerball remaining. This is the rinseAid so I understand that.

When using the tab with the Red power ball I noticed that the Red ball started dissolving along with the blue Jet-Dry Rinse Agent Action layer. These two went first??? The white layer was the last to go and even at the end of my test half of it remained.

So the Rinse Aid Action like layer seems to dissolve in the beginning along with the pre-Soaking Powerball.

The only other thing I noticed is the Phosphorus content per tab

WHITE 1.74 grams
RED 1.8 grams

So it could be that this new tab is not trying to carry over any rinseAid into the final rinse since that layer dissolves along with the rest of them. Anyway ReckittBenckiser is pushing Jet Dry Turbo so why would they continue to have RA in a tab. Better to try to sell both I guess. Both products contain Etch protector and both recommend 125F to 140F as the optimal water temperature.

I will try the new tab in my next load(which will contain dishes from Sunday and Monday) and will not do a rinse/hold before. I just wish these folks would put their formulation in a powder so I can have better control over the dosage.

The white powerball ones always suds up with me. I have taken the ball out and just use the tab and I wouldn't have the suds so I knew that was the problem.

Hope that you like the new RED ones.They didn't suds with me.

Hi Jerrod,

In the UK, the red powerball tablet is sold as FINISH "Classic". This evolved from the original "Dual Layer" tablets.

The last time I looked at a box of "Classic", it claimed something along the lines of: Red Powerball Stainsoaker - works in cold water. Blue layer breaks down starchy residues (meaning it has a biological function; ie, there are enzymes in there). White layer removes stains (ie, contains oxygen bleach).

The White pearl Powerball (3in1, 4in1, 5in1)- same idea; Blue layer = enzymes, White layer = oxygen bleach, Pearl Powerball = rinse aid, Red flecks = stainsoakers.

We also have FINISH "Quantum", and they're different again!!! They are a pre-moulded gel-pack, with three compartments: Blue powder is biological, and supposed to be released first; the 'powerball' is now the oxygen bleach (white powder), and supposed to be released later in the wash stage as the water warms up (bleaches apparently interfere with biological action). The third compartment is a blue gel; this is the rinse-aid.

The Quantums are rather expensive, and they don't work well on the cooler/quicker programmes, as they can have some difficulty in dissolving.

The multi-function tablets are supposed to dissolve according to temperature and the pH of the water, so that the rinse-aid powerball (where fitted) should not start to melt until the heated, neutral pH of the final rinse water (Reckitt Benckiser UK told me this years ago now).

Jerrod,

I don't have your quality of yuckiness, but I did my best on my last load :) Lots of sparkly clean dishes and flatware, some of which had had baked on tomato/cheese yuck.

I also put in a tart pan which I would ordinarily wash by hand (to save space--better for environment to put lots of smaller things in a full load and do the one big one by hand). The tart pan had lots of yuck including baked on custard. All the yuck except for the thinnest film of baked on custard came off. That came clean with no effort but a quick wipe with a net covered sponge. So I don't know if the problem is the initial water wasn't hot enough (I don't remember if I ran it right before switching on), the detergent wasn't gritty enough or enzymy enough or whatever, or the dishwasher isn't powerful enough (it's a Whirlpool, and I think it was made about 15 years ago, though maybe not installed more than 10 years ago, so it couldn't be too bad).

If the problem is the Seventh Generation detergent I still don't care because I'd rather rewash the one pan rather than use all that unnecessary harshness, or send that chemical stuff down the drain.

JC

Sparky

I had trouble with the 3n1 action tabs in my older Miele DW. The DW still worked with it but it created a lot of suds. No suds in my new one...the suds may be do to the hardness or softness of the water since this newer one controls the softness better. Do you know how hard your water is?

I am guessing that this new tab will work just as well as the old. I never bought the stuff for the Jet Dry rinse agent in it since I use a separate RA anyway. Because the old one worked OK I am not sure what kind of improvement this is really going to be...if any.

I was thinking about this and if they have removed the RA, are we supposed to consider this an improvement? The Phos has increased so I guess that would cause a cleaning improvement but this may only be a marketing adjustment for Reckitt Benckiser.

How did the tab work for you? Did it clean everything OK?
What type of cycle did you use and do you know the water temperature of it?

Rolls

We(USA) only have ElectraSol powder with chlorine bleach, Electrasol 2n 1 tabs, or Gel paks which are single packs containing gel. And now we have the new 3n1 action tabs. They don't say anything about cleaning in cold water. We don't' have anything with Red flecks in it but perhaps the flecks have become a ball for us. Not sure if we have a rinseAid powerball anymore.

Don't most DW have rinseAid dispensers? Maybe having rinseaid in a detergent is no longer a big deal especially since the box says that you may still need to use a separate one.

Anyway I will wash Sunday's and Mondays(todays) dishes Tuesday morning so I won't know how things turn out until then.

I just want this stuff in powder that's all.
If I have this tab in water with very dirty dishes the tab will work on the dirt.

If I have this tab in water with minimal dirt I still have all of this entire tab in the water to work on...... what?

I am just getting around to running the so I just started the DW. For a start I decided to use the energy saver(Economy) cycle because it uses a lower temperature range. All of the detergents I have used so far can clean normal soil using this cycle and I have used it on 2 day dried on stuff as well. Ir provides a Wash, two or three after rinses and a dry.

There is one change in plan. I received the seventh generation detergent right before I started the DW so I am using that and will try the Electrasol red ball at a later time.

hi

new to this forum, kind of confusing reading all the info.

is the seventh generation good? i would like to try it.

thanks

I had a look at Electrasol USA and the Canadian site too, and compared them to Finish UK and Calgonit Germany.

There are products on sale in Germany that the rest of us don't get; and there are products in the US that seem to be combined versions of the ones we have.

Heaven only knows why Reckitt Benckiser cannot release standard products across the world.

Jerrod: Red ball tabs work fine for me. No suds. Does leave that whitish look in the bottom of stainless cookware, but then the only detergent I have seen that will get that out is the Amway.

I washed on the Normal cycle. I did use hi-temp which is 145 in mine for the wash. I have a Kenmore Elite.

Hopefully this Seventh Gen will work well. I have never tried that before. Tried the BioKleen and it washed well but tends to start building up in the rack glides. Let us know how the 7th gen does.

Rolls, the laws and regulations differ all over. Some places you have to have x and can't have y, and others vice versa.

Greif, I like the Seventh Generation. If you read up, you'll see that I use it, no rinse agent, but not the ickiest dishes ever, and get sparkly, clean dishes.

Sparkey what is the white stuff in the bottom of SS pans. I don't think I have ever seen that. Is it like stuck on or dried on?

I have completed two washes with Seventh Generation DW and will describe the results.

The first load consisted of dishes that were sitting for 2 days without a rinse hold. Almost everything was dried on. I used one of the lower temp cycles(I think the temperature is in the range of 104 to 115 maybe to 122) to see how the detergent would work. The cycle consisted of a wash, two rinses and a dry and lasted for 90 minutes. I used 1/1/4 table spoons. Everything came out looking clean and good.

The next cycle consisted of dishes that were sitting for 2 days with pasta, pesto sauce and Au gratin potato soil. Everything was dried on and the glass Au gratin casserole had burned on soil on it also. I always wash this casserole with the burn on dried on potatoes and cheese. For this cycle I used a cycle named "cheese" which uses a temp of around 170F and gives a long heated pre-wash, long wash, two rinses and dry. I used 2 tablespoons of detergent plus 1 teaspoon in the prewash. The cycle lasted 2 hours and 23 minutes.

Things didnt come out so good with this load. First I checked the glass casserole. It still had stuck on food on it a but most of the burned on stuff seemed to be removed. Next I checked the rest of the load. At first look things looked clean, but on closer inspection by running my hand over items almost everything is coated in a grit like somethingwhich is now dried on. I also found additional food stuff on the glasses. Sometimes you cannot see it but you can feel it with your fingers.

My first thought is that I used too much detergent, yet things did not get clean so perhaps that is not the problem. The water was certainly hot enough and was hotter than the previous loadstill the grit. So I am wondering if the detergent is reacting or not reacting to something in starch. Maybe the high temperature of the water disables the detergent. Well I guess I will never know.

Now I am wondering what to do with these dishes. I was going to just use them but when I get a glass of water ----here comes the grit floating so I guess I will just rewash them tomorrow.

I have washed this cheese load getting good success with Miele tabs and Electrasol tabs. I did have some remaining cheese in the casserole when I used Cascade Action pacs , but there was no grit on anything and everything else was clean. So from this experience, for me it seems that 7th generation was OK for normal soil, but it didnt do so good with heavy starchy soil. I still dont get the grit all over everything.

Jerrod,

Thanks for doing the tests. Sorry about the grit!

Interesting thought about the temperature. SG did my starchy and cheesy yuck okay and I doubt it's formulated for higher heat than most American dishwashers do. Hm...

If I get any more yucky messes to try I'll report back :)

plllog
Don't worry about the grit. I read about this from other people on that other site but I guess I thought it would not happen. I am getting ready to clean these dishes again and trying to figure out what cycle to use.

I am afraid to use a sensor cycle because there is not a lot of real dirt and I don't know if the DW will run long enough. Also I want to use one of the Red ball Electrasol tabs, so I will need hot water and a cycle long enough to dissolve the tab. Maybe I should not use a tab and use powder instead.

I am thinking of using the Heavy soil but because DW looks at the soil to adjust the temp still not sure what temp I am going to get. Maybe Sani since I think it is a set high temp for the wash and rinse. I hate to near boil dishes just to remove whatever this grit is, but I still do have the cheese and potato stuck on the dishes.

Another thought is that because this grit is something from the detergent I wonder how it will react to being mixed with another detergent? I wonder if it will even get washed out of the tub? Questions, questions. I may end up down on my knees wiping the thing out, and washing the dishes by hand....that ought to show me. :)

Good heavens! How about this: Fill the sink with warm water and swirl a glass around. Does the grit come off? If so, how about just using the rinse cycle. If not, add a little dishsoap and swirl another glass. Does the grit come off? If so, try running it with the Seventh Generation powder on a light cycle (the kind that doesn't go over 140 degrees). This on the theory that nail polish removes nail polish :)

'Cause I gotta tell you: I once in awhile get a tiny bit of loose, undesolved powder, in one particular spot in the upper rack, but no grit on the dishes or in the tub or anything.

Just an idea. I hate to think of you down there on your knees just because I encouraged you to try the stuff.

Umm... Errr.... Ahhh....you are suggesting I use 7th generation to solve the problem 7th generation caused? No not that. No not again...Please NO! :) I'm just kidding.

The problem is solved and I didn't get down on my knees.
This afternoon I used an Electrasol Red ball tab and the Sanitize cycle. 20 minutes into the main wash I opened the door. There was steam and the water was hot. Laying there below the door was the tab almost dissolved with only a thin layer of white left. I took my finger and pushed it toward the center where the water was.

The cycle finished and an hour ago I unloaded the DW and checked. Everything is clean and smooth and the rest of the cheese/potatoe has been removed from the casserole so everything is OK.

Like I said don't feel bad about this. I do these home made trials to see how products work for me so this is a risk I take. I am still wondering what caused this. I increased the detergent amount so maybe there was not enough water to dissolve it? The temp caused the detergent to stay solid? I dunno. The inside of the door was gritty (or maybe it IS undissolved powder that is dried on and feels like grit) also so I just don't get it. Anyway 7th Gen doesn't seem to work too well with my specific set of conditions...no harm done.

It must be the same formulation as Ecover. It does the exact same thing.

Jerrod: The white stuff in the bottom of the SS pans won't rub off and it isn't residue from the detergent. I think it is from sometimes starting the pans on too high of a temp and it causes them to turn. You can get it out with white vinegar. I have noticed when I was using the Amway Dish Drops Powder there was never any white in the pans.

Sparky823

The white stuff. Oh I know what you are talking but I've only seen it when the pan was on the stove and it was way too high..I could see the bottom turning white or metalic looking.

Electrasol red ball Tab.

I did another load using Electrasol Red ball and the results were very good and identical to Electrasol with the water softener in the ball so perhaps what they really did was to remove the softener from the product and maybe add something to increase the phosphorus. Good that it doesn't suds up a lot for you so you can get to use it.

I wonder if the reason manufacturers don't put these combination products in powder form is because it would be harder for them to get the proportions of the ingredients correct in each dose?

Jerrod; Have you ever used the Electrasol Gel Pacs? If so , how did they do for you? I used them when they first came out but to be honest I can't remember how they did. Maybe not great or I would still be buying them--but I have a terrible habit of switching around and always having to try the "new" stuff.

Sparky
I used Electrasol Gel pacs in my older previous Miele DW. The manual said not to use Gels or liquids but since this was in a pac I tried it. The old DW had a water softener that you manually adjusted and you had to adjust it to the hardess the water would ever be which in my case is around 14 gr/gal.

Any time I used Electrasol Tabs there was a LOT of foam created. The DW still did OK but a thick layer of foam was always created. This was with Electrasol 2n1 tabs without the ball and jet dry. You can still buy 2n1 tabs.

I tried the Gel pacs with my previous DW and did not notice the foam. Then they were discontinued by my local supermarket.

My new model adjusts the hardness for each fill and I see that there is no foam with the 2n 1 or 3n 1 tabs so I think the foam was being created because the water was just too soft for the amount of tab being used.

I have not tried the Gel in this current DW because I could no longer find them. I did see them a few months ago in a store about 2 miles from me, but I didn't buy them.

So I had good success with the Gel pacs in my other DW and I don't remember any foam problem from them. So if you can find them try 'em out.

Sparky you mentioned having a water hardness of 3 grains
Do you get water from a city or do you have a well?

I decided to do a patent search on DW detergent to see if I could find any information about the use of detergent tablets. The search turned up all kinds of information about DW detergents and patents granted to P&G, Palmolive and Reckitt Benckiser.

Almost all companies state that the use of tablets provides easier dosing, and less storage and transportation costs. I wonder which is really important to them, the ease of dosage or reducing storage and transportation costs.

Multi layer tablets solve some problems due to the fact that it keeps some components separate from each other avoiding reaction, instability and exhaustion of the components before they are even used, and some components are damaged by the compression used to make tablets so putting them together in layers helps prevent this. Given this I wonder if they can mix this stuff together into a powder? I know they could, but would it be as effective?

Dishwasher Pacs are described as a tablet also, just that one compartment of them may contain a gel which may contain hydrogenated castor oil as a thickening agent. Oil this is the reason my hands were oily when I bought a bag of Cascade 2n1 action pacs reached in and found that some of them were busted, pulled my hand out and it was full of oil.

P&G and Reckit Bencisker approach etching a little differently in that P&G uses insoluble zinc salts and RB uses a variety of soluble materials and could use zirconium, titanium and other things. RB also claims to add water soluble glass components to their mixtureI guess to help replace components that get worn away from washing.

One patent for DW Gel stated that the Gel was developed because water was known to leak into the detergent cup during the dishwasher pre wash and once there would mix with the detergent and cause a very high alkalinity and a breakdown of the detergent before it was released into the main wash. The Gel worked because it had a higher surface tension and the water leakage was not consequential.Hmm never heard about this--I thought it just supposed to be convenient. If I remember correctly I had a Dw that you could not use a gel in because it would be oozing out of the cup during the prewash.so I guess water could run in also.

I found something interesting in a P&G patent that was dealing with the use of enzymes. The information stated that chorine bleach required manufactures to use special processing and storage precautions to protect compounds and it caused some damage to metal rims on china and silverware, but that there was no known surfactant that could perform its function which was to prevent the formation and deposition of troublesome proteins and protein grease complexes on hard surfaces during the washing process. These statements make me wonder if this is the reason I get identical cleaning results from ElectraSol powder containing chlorine bleach and almost any other detergent containing enzymes. Both of these clean just fine for me.

In the patents all companies give a series of scenarios and ingredients they MAY use in the products and they dont necessary state that they are using any method but they do state a preferred scenarioso no one can ever really tell what they are doing, but you can get an idea of the compounds involved.

I found the search interesting and it seems that this is just one big research field in which all companies know a lot about the background and chemistry involved and are merely tweaking things by building on the past which makes sense.

I did not do a complete exhaustive search so there may be other patents that are newer than the ones I found which are dated from about 1990 to 2003.

The above comments about the information are mine. If you want to get the details you should do the patent search. Good stuff if you are interested in wading through it.

Jerrod; I have a well. Also a front load washer and I have to watch how much I use in it cause even the HE stuff soaps up a lot sometimes.

I have the most sudsing in the dishwasher with the Elec. 3in1 jetdry balls. It suds like crazy. The red balls don't suds though.

I have also noticed that the Jet Dry Turbo foams when it is dispensed whereas the regular jet dry did not. I have put my last in the dispenser now so I will go back to reg. after this to finish up what I had previously.

Know this is a different subject but what laundry soap do you use?

Laundry soap. Yeah that is a different topic but I will just say that I use:
Persil Megaperls for colors,
Persil Megaperls for whites
Persil Gels(white, colors) for oily stuff
I don't use any additives but sometimes will pre-treat stains with shout.

Sometimes I use Ariel from the UK( I order it )
and Comfort FS also from the UK.