"When I reposted my question, the forum rejected my post saying I already had posted that question."
When you get this error, just change the "Subject of Posting" Slightly---for example, "RE: Which Dishwasher to Buy" change that to "RE: Which Dishwasher to Buy 1" or
RE: "Which Dishwasher to Purchase"
Unfortunately the Search function is not working right now, (always use the one at the bottom of the page)--but it isn't working right now either.
As far as US Dishwashers go, most of the posts about Kitchen Aid are positive and I think most of them still have the Heated Drying, but be sure to double check that!!
Hopefully the search will soon be fixed and you can do a search for Kitchen Aid Dishwasher or KA Dishwasher or Whirlool Dishwasher, etc etc.
Until it is fix, Online stores often have product reviews by their customers, so you may want to try some of those (AJMadison) for example.
Good Luck!

Gary

Not only is GW a very useful site, it is generally quite user-friendly. The information avaialble is well worth whatever minor inconvenience you might be experiencing at the moment.

As for the information you are seeking, if you search the site you will find an abundance of comments about the relative merits of the various dishwashers, european and domestic, currently available. I suspect doing the work yourself will produce better results in that it will enable you to narrow your focus to specific manufacturer/models based on the features that are important to you. If you are going to rely on others, you will get better results if you at least specify a price range.

Noise level and loading schematics are important to me. When durability and cleaning power are added to the mix, the front runner for me is the Miele Excella. Given my preference for fully integrated appliances, my choice would be the G2872SCVi. There are less expensive alternatives, but I doubt there is a better dishwasher in terms of cleaning power.

If the search function at the bottom of the page does not work (sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't) you can always use Google. I usually just add 'Gardenweb' to the end of whatever I am looking for.

I'm stuck on which brand of appliances to buy? I'm doing a new kitchen and completely baffled with all different reports on dishwashers cooktop stoves refrig- etc Please if their is anybody that could share their experience with appliances they have purchased what they are happy with? Or just flat out miserable with their purchases?

I'm not sure what's up with all the missing posts on the main page, but you may want to check mine out regarding the Miele dishwashers. I went with the Miele Diamante G2143SC and have had it for about 5 weeks now. It's the best dishwasher I've ever had. Kills the GE and Electrolux that I had from before. No matter how much I load it up, everything comes out clean. I had 4 extra people over for dinner last night at the unit was filled the the max, but after washing all the dishes, pots, glasses and silverware came out clean.

I'm glad I spend the extra money to go with the Miele, because I just needed something that works well and is reliable, without all the service calls that kept happening with the other brands.

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele Diamante Plus or Optima-II Dishwasher and warranty question

Thank you so much for your information. I've had bosch kitchen aid, GE, Maytag. Not satisfied with any of dishwashers.

Does this site blackball members? I have tried to enter the thread I started and my posts aren't showing up.

We have a Bosch in our primary home and just put a Kitchenaid into our Summer home. After using it for the past two weeks I am madly in love it with and would like to get rid of our Bosch and replace it with another Kitchenaid. It has the heated dry feature which you can opt to turn on or not use.

The site software is old and cranky. It's not you. If you're blackballed you'll be disinvited and locked out, and that will only happen if you violate the terms (flaming, swearing and other offensive behavior, or commercial promotion, mostly).

I had big issues with the whole heater thing. The Viking, which is otherwise a superb machine, didn't dry my dishes. The GE Monogram doesn't clean as well (can't get aged, dried on egg), though it does clean, and does get everything dry on the plastics cycle with added heat and heated dry. People like the KitchenAid and Kenmore Elite as well. I don't like the KA racks, though many others do, and you say that's not important. My old Whirlpool got dishes sparkly clean and dry. My new Monogram gets them clean but not sparkly, and mostly dry if it's set right.

Your best bet is to see them, read through the manuals, and when you're ready to think about a particular model, see if anyone here has any feedback on it.

In my old kitchen I had an ancient (24 year-old) KA, which I loved. It worked fantastically. I had it repaired several times over those years. In my new kitchen I have the Electrolux wave, which I also love. It loads differently, but holds pretty much the same amount of stuff (that old KA was amazing in quantity of stuff it took). I would have bought a new KA, the one with the 3rd shelf, but was told it vented upwards, which would not be a good thing for my BB countertops. The Electrolux washes well, dries well, is super-silent, with a blue light that glows on the floor once its completed the cycle. Agree with plllog about exploring them on shop floors, manuals etc. than checking back with GW

Note that Whirlpool (a.k.a. Kitchenaid) has again recalled their dishwashers (under about 8 of their brands) to repair safety defects. I also don't care for the exposed heating element (dangerous to curious kids or little plastic items that fall through the rack cracks), nor the open vent that that spews steam and wrecks the underside of laminate countertops within a few years, or the lame attempt to rectify this problem on their high-end models with a flap that opens and closes (the owner's manual assures you that the clickity-clack noises you hear hours after the machine is done cleaning your dishes is "normal").

Bosch is reliable, quiet; too bad about the truncated rack depth (about 2" shorter than competetors). Early reliability problems with LG dishwashers (per CR surveys) disappointing; it would be a good design if it worked well. Samsungs worth a look. Miele very reliable; expensive. Don't care for Electrolux/Frigidaire's design. Not familiar enough with recent GE or Asko DWs to make judgments on those.

Wow! It looks like the situation boils down to: The dollar is not worth a nickel any more so pay up and get a Miele or expect one kind of problem or another. The popularly priced appliances just ain't what they used to be. Too many design flaws and lemons to bother you unless you are lucky. I thought I could live with a KA until I read about the steam vent ruining my new laminate counter. Now that is out. Could change to Quartz but that costs about $5000 more than laminate so the Miele is a cheaper solution.

Lee676

You are playing very fast & loose with your misleading comments.

*Can you direct readers to the Whirlpool & Kitchenaid brand recall that you refer to?

*Exposed dishwasher heating elements are far more common than the concealed element used on some brands. The exposed heater is more effective at dish drying.

*Most Whirlpool, Kitchenaid & Maytag have vents that close during the wash cycle. The integrated units with the vent facing upward, stays closed throughout the complete wash & dry cycle and 4 hours thereafter. No steam vents to the underside of the countertop. The models with a vent on the front panel do vent small amounts of steam during the dry cycle. This is the traditional way all brands of american style machines have worked for decades. Nothing new or different. With a front vent unit; if steam is venting to the underside of a countertop, the machine is installed too far back into the opening.

There are no known "clickaty-clack" noises associated with the sealed vents.

Do you own or service these machines? As an authorized and trained servicer of many brands of appliances, the GE's, Whirlpools & many others are actually quite good when installed and used correctly.

Well if this site is blackballing people for posting too much on one subject...I'm outta here (g) Srsly, this site has been squirrelly ever since Spike left :( One thing gets fixed just in time for something else to go south. And they've never bothered making a few upgrade changes that would have been nice like email alerts to a new posting.

I rarely hear anything negative about Miele, but it's a European dw and doesn't have heated dry. You'll also find that the European models are smaller inside. Take several of your larger items to the store to be sure they'll fit. Bosch has had a LOT of rants and complaints for about a year now. 4 years ago when I was looking for a new dishwasher, Bosch was it on a stick so that's what I set out to buy last year. Took my pots, pans and large drinking glasses. Didn't fit. Was surprised at the small interior size and lack of tine configurations. I ended up buying my original choice, a KA (with the 3rd rack). For all those that have seen this a few hundred times, you can stop right here (lol).
I L-O-V-E this machine!!!!!!!!! Best appliance purchase of my 30 years as a housewife! It's big, it's incredibly versatile, it cleans UBER-wonderfully, it's quiet, it's energy efficient, it cleans as well in one hour as it does in 2.5 hours, it has a 3rd rack for all my utensils that allows me to remove my silverware basket and make room for even more pans or bowls.
I've had people email me asking if a lesser model KA would clean as well. I can't answer that but if you don't want the 3 rack, the quiet noise level and maybe even the energy and water savings, I'm sure KA can tell you which models have the same motor, spraying arms/patterns...whatever parts make up the actual cleaning aspect. My dw will be one year old next year so I can't really talk about durability. I've had no warranty issues with it. I use Cascade Complete and Jet Dry. I scrape and 50/50 rinse my dishes....depends what's on them. Oh, the dryer vent. The dw will come with a foil lined adhesive strip that the installer will place under the leading edge of the counter. This protects the counter from any damaging steam. However, my dw's vent stays closed for 4 hours. I've never seen or felt any steam coming out of the dw. ALSO, I don't use the heated dry option so perhaps that's why. But the foil is supposed deflect any damaging steam. My daughter's Frigidaire vent is located in the front of the dw. Her laminate counter is warping. So just because a vent isn't at the top edge, doesn't mean it can't happen. The steam rises right up under her counter overhang :(
Monica

I received great advice here when I was looking at dishwashers. The best was to take your dishes and glassware with you to make sure that they fit in the racks. My dishes did not fit well in Miele or Bosch dishwashers so it was good that I checked before buying. I was disappointed because I was ready to buy a Miele but that purchase would have been even more expensive if I had to replace my dishes!

Dixidarlin1, I sure am confused. I have read several threads now with warnings about countertops warping from the steam escaping from KA top vents. At least one said the flaps used were a kluge and didn't work half the time. This is a question that I must have a definitive answer to. If the flap works I go for KA. If not, something else.

We chose the KA KUDE70FV and we love it. We've only had it for two months but it does an amazing job. It is quiet and cleans like a dream. It holds so many dishes and still manages to get everything so clean that the dishes sparkle. It is so quiet that you can't even tell that it is running when you are standing right in front of it. We use Cascade Complete (powder) and Jet Dry and have never had a problem. We love the third rack. It takes a few seconds more to load that than just throwing everything in the silverware racks but putting it all away is a breeze. I would buy this dishwasher again in a minute.
Nancy

mrsthesun, Many thanks for sharing your positive experience. After reading about so many concerns I was becoming a little nervous about my choice. My KUDE70 is being installed this week.

I have the KA KUDE70FV dishwasher since the end of October 2009 and I am in love. I love how quiet it is as well as how well it cleans dishes. It holds more than the Bosch since I took Monica's advice and took dishes to the store. I LOVE the third rack which I use all the time and took out the culinary rack out for more room for other dishes. Putting away the forks, knives and spoons is so quick. I would buy this dishwasher again.

Not to bash K.A. but the KUDE70FV runs about $1000-$1200 depending on the retailer. For about the same price you can get the introductory Miele Inspira G2142SCSS for about $1200, or the Diamante G2143SCSS for $1400. At that price level, I'd recommend the Miele over the K.A.

My KA KUDE70FV was $974 and then I got a $200 rebate from KA. I couldn't be happier. We've owned 15 houses and as many dishwashers. Before I bought my dishwasher I asked all of my friends for their advice and after listening to their pros and woes I chose KA. Would do it again. My dishes come out sparkling clean.........plus they're dry.

One feature I really like about Miele dws is the clean steal door option.

When I see a Miele at Pacific Sales they always seem clean.

Walk over to the KA not so much.

Look at KA in the Sears appliance dept it looks like children were told to have at it.They look atrocious.

$1199 I paid at PC Richards for my KA JUDE70FV with a Rebate for the installation and shipping. It looks like mrsthesun got a better deal but I did the best I could in negotiations. I love the look of no controls on the front of the dishwasher and I love the dishwasher handle.

I also never had a dry heat before and I LOVE it. I now can put my dishes away without having them all over my kitchen drying which saves me a lot of time.

The Clean Steal on the Miele is really nice.
Fingerprints and smudges aren't nearly as noticeable on it and are easily wiped off, unlike the stainless Electrolux we had before. That thing was a fingerprint magnet.

My Miele was installed in my kitchen remodel in '03. My experience has been mixed. It's always has problems---intermittently with the first part of a cycle when it does its' initial fill and drain. I've complained repeatedly and Miele sent a couple of guys out late last year, but the darn problem wouldn't happen for them. Now it MOSTLY takes two cancel and restarts before it goes smoothly. It's happening more and more often, but despite running the garbage disposal repeatedly it still stops in the early phase.
I recently mentioned this to an acquaintance who had built a gorgeous home with Gaggenau ovens and cooktop, but had a KA dishwasher. When I asked why she didn't have a Miele, she said that her mother and others had ripped them out so she went with a KA. DH is really annoyed since we had to pay an additional installation charge for a Miele "Certified Installer" to extend the warranty.
Sigh...

> Lee676

> You are playing very fast & loose with your misleading comments.

> *Can you direct readers to the Whirlpool & Kitchenaid brand recall that you refer to?

Absolutely:

" June 3 (Bloomberg) -- Whirlpool Corp., the worlds largest appliance maker, issued the biggest U.S. dishwasher recall in three years to fix 1.7 million [dishwashers] with a fire hazard, the Consumer Product Safety Commission said.

The dishwashers have a faulty heating element that can short-circuit and ignite, the agency said today in a statement. Consumers should stop using the dishwashers immediately and disconnect the power source by pulling the fuse or flipping a circuit-breaker, the agency said.

The manufacturer, based in Benton Harbor, Michigan, received 12 reports of fires with the plastic-tub models, including a blaze that caused extensive kitchen damage, the agency said."
------------------

I don't find anything 'fast', 'loose', or 'misleading' about my previous post given that Whirlpool just issued the biggest appliance recall in three years to fix defective dishwashers that catch fire by themselves....

Whirlpool sells their appliances using over a dozen different brand names. This particular recall covers dishwashers made from 2006-'10, a time period shortly after Whirlpool bought Maytag and their associated brand names, so the recalled machines may be branded Maytag, Amana, Jenn-Air, Magic Chef, Crosley, Admiral, or Performa. Whirlpool had not yet standardized the basic design of all of their dishwasher brands at that time, so "Whirlpool" and "Kitchenaid" dishwashers aren't affected by this particular recall. However, Whirlpool has since changed both of those brands over to a new design that is shared with Maytag/Amana/Jenn-Air/Admiral/etc./etc. (open the doors of a nearby Whirlpool and Maytag dishwasher at the big-box store and look at the bottom or sides of the tub - they're identical. Only the rack shapes and colors, outside control panels, spray arms, and a few other trim pieces distinguish them.) So if the Whirlpool's currently-produced dishwashers are recalled, the recall will almost certainly cover the Whirlpool and Kitchenaid brands as well as Maytag and the rest since they all share most of their internal parts. And this is already Maytag's second fire-related recall for this generation of dishwashers.

> *Exposed dishwasher heating elements are far more common than the concealed element used on some brands. The exposed heater is more effective at dish drying.

Whirlpool and lower-end Electrolux (Frigidaire) dishwashers are the only major manufacturers still widely using exposed heating elements and passive air vents. GE also uses exposed heating element, but their machines use fan-forced heating so the escaped steam blows several inches outward and beyond the countertop, out of harm's way. The "real" KitchenAid dishwashers made before Whirlpool acquired the brand name did not have either exposed heating elements nor a steam vent in the door.

> *Most Whirlpool, Kitchenaid & Maytag have vents that close during the wash cycle. The integrated units with the vent facing upward, stays closed throughout the complete wash & dry cycle and 4 hours thereafter. No steam vents to the underside of the countertop.

Yes, and this design has been subject to lots of complaints here and elsewhere (see thread, or one, or one). Don't have time to search for it now, but the owner's manuals for higher-end Whirlpool/Maytag/Kitchenaid dishwashers with the top vent explain that you'll hear a clicking sound several hours after the dishes are dry, and that that's the vent flap moving, and that that sound is "normal". Every other manufacturer's definition of "normal" doesn't include flap noise hours after the machine is done doing its thing.

> The models with a vent on the front panel do vent small amounts of steam during the dry cycle. This is the traditional way all brands of american style machines have worked for decades.

Not true. I had an old American Hobart-manufactured Kitchenaid in the house I grew up - no exposed heating element, no vent, no clicks, no clacks. Ditto Thermador and Waste King. Older Maytag and Jenn-Air dishwasher (I had one too) had the GE arrangement - exposed heating element, fan-forced air through a vent that at least wouldn't harm your countertop. Several times a small plastic item like a lid would get lifted by the water and fall through the rack of our old Maytag, landing on the floor of the tub. Every couple of years one would unluckily land on the heating element, melt down during the dry cycle, and stink up the room with the smell of burned plastic.

But that was then. Nowadays, when Samsung, LG, Bosch, Electrolux, Asko, Miele, and Fisher&Paykel all use concealed heating elements, and the few brands that don't, except those made by Whirlpool, usually use fans to boost the exhaust steam outwards a few inches so it doesn't ooze directly upward and delaminate your countertop, why put up with Whirlpool's piss-poor design?

Yes, I have installed most of these brands and used many of them.

> Can you direct readers to the Whirlpool & Kitchenaid brand recall that you refer to?

Oops, here's the link:

Those Hobart-made KitchenAid units did have a vent. It was between the upper and lower door panels, across the full width of the machine. Steam would definitely blow out of the vent and waft upward at the start of the drying period, although it would largely dissipate before reaching high as the control panel or countertop overhang. The KUDS22 shown below is Whirlpool-built, but retains much of the classic KA design.
1975 KitchenAid KDI-17a 1992 KitchenAid KUDS220T4

Lee676, I read the three threads you included in your latest and two of them seem to be the same thread (#1 & #3). When I looked for someone that was actually complaining about their KA top vent, I found none. There was a lot of speculation about the troubles that ought to occur with this design. I think the mechanism could fail occasionally, but that can happen with any design. It still looks like Mielle proponents (Whirlpool haters) bad mouthing KA designs and Whirlpool lovers bad mouthing Mielle. So I still have not got any definitive answer to my question about the moisture problem. I will say that when I get a new laminate I might have the carpenter glue a scrap piece of laminate to the underside if he can figure out how to accommodate the extra height at that part when putting on the top laminate.

Lee, the Maytag dishwasher recall has nothing to do with Whirlpool and Kitchenaid dishwashers. It applies to discontinued Maytag designed plastic tub machines. So no matter how you "spin" it, there is no connection other than Whirlpool conducting the recall.

The venting is a non issue. Think about it. What sense would it make to vent heat & steam to the underside of a counter top? In no time at all, there would be damage. The sealed vent on the integrated Kitchenaid-Whirlpool machines has been around for 10 years. On any brand front vent machines, if the steam is making its way under the countertop, the machine is installed too far back under the counter.

Few models of GE & Frigidaire machines have fans. Seems like that feature applies to their top end models.

Hope this helps

dixiedarlin1. In your last port you said "On any brand front vent machines, if the steam is making its way under the countertop, the machine is installed too far back under the counter."

I purchased the KUDE70 and understand that it is not fully integrated so I have had my contractor make a recess for it so it will be flush. It will have a custom panel on the front and the countertop is quartz. Will this create a problem for me? It is to be installed this week, maybe as early as tomorrow.

gwentm, make sure the foil that comes with the dishwasher is installed under the counter and you will have no problems. I have no problems with my laminate counters and the dishwasher was installed at the end of October 2009.

I love my dishwasher.

Just FYI, I had a 1989 Kenmore/GE DW that vented out the top, underneath laminate countertops. The vent directed steam outwards, not upwards. The counters were removed in 2003 and had no damage whatsoever.

In this forum I was advised to request the moisture flashing (an additional $5) be installed with my new KA DW, which took a few extra minutes, no big deal.

The recall does not apply to any of the KUD models from KA. I was advised by the service guy to watch out for possible pump failure in the third year, starting with a gradual loss of cleaning power. We have an extended warranty so I'm glad he told me what the symptoms were.

The Miele was beautiful, but it didn't fit my dishes or pots. I've been very happy with the KA model we got, it holds all my very mixed loads and cleans extremely well. It isn't fussy about detergent and is much quieter than my old one (I like quiet, but loading and cleaning was a LOT more important to me). Also, the SS door is very easy to keep clean, which I wasn't expecting.

I have had a Miele dishwasher for 1 month replacing an old Maytag. The good - the Miele cleans circles around the Maytag. The bad - NOTHING gets dry (plastic / glass / metal). I think that the wet plastic items drip on the dry items. I am ending up with dishes and pan strewn all over my ktichen in an attempt to get thngs dry. I tried leaving the door open overnight but this was not as effective. I might try leaving the door open and pulling out the racks - I am sooo glad I remodeled my kitchen so that everyone can look inside my dishwasher (Read this sarcastically). In addition , the Miele is 1/2 inch narrower that other dishwashers. I have custom cabinets which fit closely to the dishwasher. If I ever want to change dishwashers to something that actually dries the dishes I will need to have the cabinetmaker make the opening wider which will, of course necessitate a new paint job. I'm not sure all of the grief is worth the better cleaning job.

corky, I was going to suggest you open the dw door to aid in drying but you've already tried that. Hummmm. I thought the reason the European models didn't dry as well was because they don't have a heated dry option. My KA KUDE60 DOES have it but I don't use it. I prop the door open a bit and that takes care of the drying issue (except for tops of glasses that hold water). Wonder what the difference is. I'm sure yours is stainless inside too.
Monica

corky1_2008,

Which model Miele do you own? What brand of rinse aid are you using and what is the setting level on your unit?
I've had the Diamante G2143SC for about 6 weeks now. I started with the Cascade rinse aid, which worked OK but left a chemical smell on everything. So I changed to the Miele brand rinse aid, which has no smell. The unit has 6 settings for the rinse aid dispenser, with "3" being the default. I was able to change it to "1" and most everything comes out dry except plastic containers/tupperware (plastic cups are dry). All the dishes, pots, pans, lids, glasses (made of glass), plastic cups, and silverware are dry. If all these items are not dry in your unit, then I would suspect it has something to do with the brand of your rinse aid or the dispenser setting. Maybe try setting it to a higher number and change to a different rinse aid brand.

Regarding the opening, 24" wide is the standard opening for dishwashers. When our kitchen was done a few years ago, we first had a GE Profile for about 1.5 years, then got an Electrolux (problems), and now the Miele. The GE and Miele fit just fine, but the side springs on the Electrolux were quite big and rubbed on the cabinets each the dishwasher was opened or closed. Whoever did your cabinet installation should have made the opening 24", not 23.5". But looking at the Miele install guide, it shows the open should be no smaller than 23 5/8" (23.625") wide, as the dishwasher it self is 23 9/16" (23.5625") wide.

Corky,

Are you using

or

{{gwi:1430956}}

The Somat is supposed to be better but more expensive.

[long post alert!]

Nerdyshopper - I'm not hating on Whirlpool; FWIW, I think they make a good, reliable refrigerator, and their parts & service organization is probably the best in the US. But I stand by my earlier comments regarding their dishwashers. I've owned and/or had to deal with several of these that caused the countertop substrate to absorb moisture, expand, and start flaking off (on the bottom) and delaminate (on the top) because of their flawed steam vent design. I've had lots of Whirlpool-made dishwashers over the years, and they all were duds.

I also have an ethical bone to pick with Whirlpool for how they routinely obtain Energy Star certification through shady means. In the case of dishwashers, they take advantage of loopholes in the way the government tests dishwasher energy use - filling the machine with clean dishes and selecting the "normal" cycle. Under these conditions, the last Whirlpool dishwasher I bought (about 5 years ago) was very low on water and energy use. But there was a electronic dirt sensor that would order extra water and heat if it detected even slightly soiled dishes, which it nearly always did in real-life use (the government tests didn't dirty the dishes first, since the testing procedure was devised before manufacturers started adding "smart wash" sensors). What's more, selecting anything other than the "normal cycle" ran energy-hungry cycles that wouldn't qualify for Energy Star compliance. And even when the "normal" cycle was selected, if any of the optional settings like "sani rinse" or "power boost" were selected, the Energy Star-compliant cycle was automatically circumvented. So the only way to get an energy-saving wash from the Whirlpool dishwasher was to run the "normal" cycle, be sure the optional settings were all turned off, and start out with dishes that were practically clean to begin with. In real-life use, the Energy Star-compliant cycle practically never would run, but Whirlpool still got to advertise Energy Star compliance, pretend to be environmentally conscious, and take advantage of various state-sponsored tax breaks for buyers. I think ES certification procedures have been updated recently to help close this loophole.

One more beef I have with Whirlpool/Kitchenaid is highlighted by another poster in one of the threads I mentioned earlier, who provided a link to a KitchenAid Dishwasher Owner's Manual and noted the description on page 7 describes how the exterior vent works. Whirlpool has a nasty habit of providing generic user's guides that cover a whole slew of models, leaving it to you to figure out which parts of the manual apply to the appliance you have. That's why the cover page just says "Dishwasher" with no mention of model numbers. Really, when I buy an expensive appliance from a supposedly upscale brand like KitchenAid, I don't think it's asking too much to be provided with a manual that actually shows you how to use the appliance I bought. When I bought a Bosch SHU68 several years ago, it came with a manual for a Bosch SHU68. But buy a KitchenAid dishwasher and they don't even bother to write a separate manual for their various top-vented-with-flap models vs. the front-vented-without-flap versions. Thus, the confusing instructions that say "your dishwasher has one of the venting systems shown below", with little diagrams that show all of the different arrangements used by KitchenAid, and leaves it up to you to figure out what parts of the operating instructions do or don't apply to the dishwasher you actually bought.

DADoEs - didn't know about the hidden vent in Hobart-built KitchenAids, but that's a better design than the high-mounted vent for the reason you noted (the steam dissipates by the time it reaches the countertop). By the way, KitchenAid dishwashers made from about 1985 to 1993 (or whenever the Hobart design was replaced by the Whirlpool-based design) were actually manufactured by Emerson, parent company of Insinkerator. When Whirlpool tried to buy KitchenAid, they were hit with an antitrust lawsuit from both WCI and Magic Chef, which both argued that the proposed sale of Kitchenaid would give Whirlpool an illegally high concentration of market share that would force smaller competitors of the market. The Zagrans law firm (of which Whirlpool was a client) has the text of the injunctions online (WCI vs. Whirlpool); the court initially ruled against Whirlpool, blocking the buyout of KitchenAid. The legal documents provide interesting reading; in order to get the legal green light, Zagrans and Whirlpool came up with a scheme that would skirt antitrust law by having Hobart sell Kitchenaid to Emerson rather than Whirlpool, and arranging a sweetheart deal that would have Emerson build their latest-design dishwasher exclusively for Whirlpool (branded KitchenAid) and themselves (branded InSinkErator) for the next 8 years, after which legal barriers would be lifted. Whirlpool would pay 20% above cost for the dishwashers they bought from Emerson. But the court ruled that Whirlpool would effectively control Emerson's production, so it still didn't fly until Zagran amended the proposal to allow Emerson to sell their older-design dishwashers to any other manufacturer that wanted them, not just Whirlpool. The idea was that in the 8-year period, Emerson could strike deals with other appliance manufacturers that made only cooking appliances and needed to rebrand an outsourced dishwasher to have a complete line of kitchen appliances, thus maintaining a competitive market. As it turned out, I don't think any other company ever bought Emerson's dishwashers, InSinkErator didn't sell many dishwashers, and they never expanded either manufacturing or branding into other major appliances, and after the 8-year period lapsed, Emerson and ISE simply abandoned dishwashers altogether.

The judge was fairly astute - correctly concluding that D&M (Design & Manufacturing, a company that built dishwashers for many of the smaller brands at the time) was about to fail as a result of industry consolidation , and that foreign competitors were about to move in (although Samsung and LG wound up playing the roles expected of Panasonic and Sanyo). As predicted, Whirlpool expanded the Kitchenaid brand into an entire line of higher-priced appliances. The court noted that the Hobart dishwasher was distinctive and would allow Whirlpool to dominate the market for premium dishwashers. Ironically, Whirlpool squandered that opportunity by replacing the Hobart design with a cheaper Whirlpool-based design that lacked distinguishing features like the hidden heating element or the multiheight-adjustable top rack, instead relying on a stainless-steel tub to provide a distinguishing characteristic. And they later muddled even that distinction by adding stainless-tub models to the Whirlpool brand that now looked and worked almost identically to Kitchenaid dishwashers.

Buyers weren't fooled, and into the breach stepped Bosch, which didn't even sell appliances in the U.S. at the time of their court battles, but now has about the same market share that KitchenAid had when Whirlpool bought them, all of them mid-to-high-end models with large profit margins. Starting with an exceptionally quiet dishwasher that repeated topped the influential Consumer Reports ratings, and the notable absence of exposed heating elements or steam vents, Bosch successfully leveraged their popular dishwashers into a full line of appliances in North America. Also moving into the high end were foreign manufacturers such as Miele, Asko, and Fisher & Paykel; and though each of those have only a sliver of the market, being high-end machines they carry profits disproportionate to their sales, and all ate away at the market KitchenAid used to own for themselves. Whirlpool, meanwhile, bought out (at great expense) one of the companies that sued them (Maytag, which had acquired Magic Chef in the interim), while WCI was bought by Sweden's Electrolux. Thanks in part to Whirlpool's bumbling, instead of the concentration of the dishwasher market into a four-company oligopoly that the antitrust court was worried about, the market is now shared by a much larger number of companies, including several foreign invaders - LG, Samsung, Bosch, Electrolux, and Haier in the mainstream, Miele, Asko, F&P at the high-end, with an abundance of other foreign companies eyeing the U.S. market that could potentially break through one way or another. GE tried to sell their appliance division but didn't find a buyer, and is now the only major U.S.-based dishwasher manufacturer besides Whirlpool. Two foreigners build large numbers of dishwashers in the U.S. - Bosch (which built a new American factory) and Electrolux (which bought WCI and the Frigidaire brand, although many (all?) of their dishwashers are now imported). One U.S. manufacturer even entered the market from scratch - Dacor, which hasn't moved many dishwashers as of yet, but they recently got picked up by Sears which improves future prospects considerably. They certainly do have a unique product in their 30" wide dishwasher, the first available since GE stopped making them in the 1960s. Meanwhile, Whirlpool has about a dozen brands that cover a market their competitors manage to cover with only one or two, which means their marketing and advertising budget are far higher than they should be. I expect their market share to dwindle over the next decade, until they realize that collecting brand names as if they were trophies is a poor business strategy. Much like General Motors which finally acknowledged that Oldsmobiles, Pontiacs, and Buicks competed against each other for the same buyers, likewise Saturn and Chevy, etc., and ditched most of their brand names so they wouldn't have to split their marketing budget 8 ways. Whirlpool needs to do the same thing - Kitchenaid and Jenn-Air vie for the same customers; ditto Whirlpool and Maytag.

I recall watching a baseball game on TV, and the billboard in the background behind the batter showed a big LG logo. That was it - just the logo, nothing else except the small "Life's Good" tagline, but it drove home what a massive advantage companies like LG, Samsung, or even GE have over Whirlpool. LG can put their logo in a prominent place, and it boosts sales of all sorts of products - flat-screen TVs, cell phones, and the like as well as appliances. Whirlpool has to spend just as much on their advertising, but the money doesn't go as far because Whirlpool only makes appliances. But due to their own incompetence, even a "Whirlpool" advertisement won't even boost mindshare of most of Whirlpool's products, because they use so many brand names. It would cost them a fortune to advertise Whirlpool, Kitchenaid, Maytag, Admiral, Jenn-Air, Magic Chef, Roper, Amana, Inglis, etc., etc., enough so they're considered "name brands" by consumers, so most of them are certain to fall into obscurity. Really awful management on so many levels.

Sorry this got so long.... and yet really, I'm just scratching the surface....

P.S. - The court document shows Norris having a 2.3% market share in 1984. I've never heard of them. A Google search shows they've been around since 1954 and still make commercial dishwashers. Evidently they used to make residential appliances too. Does anyone here know who they are/were, and what brand(s) they made?

lee676 - Thanks for all that information. I think we need a flow chart (just kidding)! The posters on GW seem to really like the KA KUDE 60 & 70 models. If there were complaints, I'm sure we would be seeing a lot of them here. Maybe KA has done a good job with these models in order to better compete with the Miele/Bosch market and regain some of its lost market share. I was going to buy the Miele but my dishes would not fit so I ended up witht he KUDE70 based upon reviews here. Do you know how they vent?

lee676, I read ALL of that on 4 hours of interrupted sleep. Do I get a prize? (lol) Now you've got me wondering about the legitimacy of the ES rating on my KA KUDE60. 95% of the time tho I'm using the Normal cycle without the drying option so I guess I'm good. I wonder if we were all happier before the era of internet research? I KNOW we got more sunshine/Vit D3! (g)
Monica

Corky- RE: your dishes not getting dry in the Miele.

I asked the salesperson about this concern and he was adamant that #1 thing: you need to use Jet Dry with this machine. (I'm not so clear on the why, just left with the main point!)

#2--unless I was misunderstanding--residual heat from your Dishwasher is what helps dry your dishes. So, if you want them drier you would go "up" one cycle to a hotter cycle (i.e. pots and pans in the miele) and the residual heat from that hotter cycle might help get them a bit dryer.

Unfortunately, I always take salespeople with a grain of salt- as I'm sure he'd much rather sell me the more expensive Miele!-but if it's true, I hope this might be of help to you.

Monica,

We were all SO much happier before the era of internet research!!! It's turned me into a terrible, horrible, sleep-deprived and children-neglecting (and husband-neglecting) monster!!! And when you know you have the best of the best (or as much as one can afford anyway), will you really feel you've lived a full and meaningful life the day you die?? Do we really get THAT much satisfaction from all this research?

Anyway, excellent point...

;)

Lee676,
What a great summary of the state of the appliance business (or all business) in the U.S. My concern is for your experience with your laminate counter top being ruined by your KA dishwasher. Very few others have had that experience. I think the situation is too bad when we must choose an inferior design of one sort or another. In that case, I guess the cheaper price is all the advantage we have but it is an advantage even if U.S. business is a dirty trust that consumers have no voice about. Oh for Teddy Roosevelt.

Oh great theresse, just ruin it for me! (g) I was hoping (altho the glory is fading fast) that all my hours upon hours upon hours of research and questioning/debate was making me one force to be reckoned with when it came to making purchasing decisions. Now you've confirmed my fear...is it worth it in the grand scheme of things? NO, and I knew that, but how do you NOT knowing you could save yourself a financial hiccup or at the least the burden of living with a mistake :o But...last year I was looking for a new phone system. Corded base and cordless handsets. Had criteria to meet. SO confused. Every time I thought I found the perfect phone, I'd discover a reason it wasn't (perfect). We were at Best Buy looking when DH finally threw one in the buggy and said "this is the one we're getting". I was secretly VERY happy he did that! Best phone system I've ever had! Had to replace my printer with an "All in One". Too stressed and hurried at the time to research. A friend just bought one and gave it 2 thumbs up. Good enough for me. LOVE it! Prints great, faxes flawlessly, great scans and copies. Does everything I need and then some. Bought a new car this year. Had a list of what I HAD to have in a new car. Handed the list to the first salesman I dealt with. He led me to the car he thought had exactly what I wanted. That was the end of my car shopping. The only car I test drove :) It was/is perfect! I've never been happier with a car purchase. I did, however, come home and research it to make sure I wasn't missing something (g) So there you have three examples of (positive) purchases made without all the drama and hours hunched over a computer! Husbands and grandbabies are a lot more important :))
Monica

corky1_2008 The answer is RINSE AID, RINSE AID, RINSE AID. That's the only way you'll get your dishes dry - same with Bosch. A friend of mine hated her Bosch because it wouldn't dry the dishes - she wouldn't use rinse aid because she thought it was too expensive. I convinced her that it wasn't too expensive and now her dishes are dry - if only I could convince her that she really doesn't need to pre-rinse her dishes. She insists on pre-rinsing so she can cram more stuff in at one time to save money, sigh...

As far as Energy Star ratings go - I'd bet that Whirlpool isn't that the only manufacturer who plays games. That's why IMHO Energy Star ratings are a joke.

Amen, Monica. :) Don't get me wrong...I'm still here, aren't I?? (sigh... )

I hate the govenment setting standards of how much water and heat your are allotted. Just look at what they did to the flush toilet when they set a maximum water use. Almost all toilets wouldn't flush in a single flush. You had to flush twice or more times. So much for water savings. Eventually some mftrs. figured out how to do it, but a lot of bad toilets were installed. Later they set hot water limits that ruined the top loader washer and a whole lot of badly engineered front loaders came onto the market. I believe that is what caused the bankruptcy of Maytag, a great company. Now you can't buy a top loader that will get your clothes clean (in the old way). Nuts!!

Lee above asked about Norris dishwashers. They are made in Australia, and I've never seen them in the USA, either commercial or residential.

I never have either, but evidently (from the court document I linked to above) Norris had a 2.3% share of the U.S. residential market in 1984, which was nearly double of what they had the year before.

Re: Energy Star compliance - I remember reading a Consumer Reports test from about 5 years ago that found several manufacturers (not just Whirlpool) that used dirt sensors delivered ES-compliant wash cycles only when filled with unrealistically clean dishes. The only dirt-sensor-equipped dishwashers that really ran the ES cycle in real-world conditions were made by Bosch (for themselves or Kenmore). Again, ES standards were changed recently to close loopholes, and I have less experience with DWs made in the last few years.

Re: Whirlpool/Kitchenaid steam vents and countertop damage - it doesn't happen immediately, but rather 3 or 4 years after the dishwasher was installed. It also won't be a problem if you have solid-surface countertops (i.e. granite, Corian, Silestone). Even laminate countertops will survive if the countertop has a bullnose and the laminate wraps around the side and bottom. Any seams may split though (I saw it happen twice) and laminate countertops that don't have any laminate on the bottom surface are particularly vulnerable. Sometimes I see dishwashers installed with the machine sticking out an inch or two rather than flush with the adjacent cabinets. This will also keep steam away from the countertop underside, but it looks rather ugly IMO.