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shermp_gw

dishwasher dilemma - Kitchenaid vs Bosch

shermp
13 years ago

I always assumed I would get a Bosch SHX45L05 DLX series dishwasher before I started the remodel but now that I've read a bit on this website as well and talk to folks the KitchenAid KUDE70FSS keeps coming up.

I have typical size plates/bowls purchased from Crate & Barrel.

How does one decide?

Features I need:

Fit my US style and size dishes

Prefer to not use a jet dry product

delay wash option (need just 6 hour delay)

Thoughts? Comments?

Thanks!

Comments (51)

  • snoozingpug
    13 years ago

    We had the KA in our last house remodel and loved it. It actually replaced a very funky 25+ year old brown KA dishwasher that still ran very well.

    With this remodel (different house) we decided to go with the KA again. For a brief moment we were thinking about the free dishdrawer offer from DCS/Fisher Paykel (with purchase of range) but decided we just can't live without the Kitchen Aid. It held everything, had a million ways to anchor lightweight items, always washed everything spotless, was quiet, and *very* sturdy - my 3 year old son even jumped on the open door (!!!) once and it didn't break.

  • weedmeister
    13 years ago

    the KA will be larger on the inside.

    Take your dishes to the store and compare.

  • creek_side
    13 years ago

    The new Bosch DW aren't what they used to be. We have a new one and one a few years old. The older model is far superior. We are very disappointed in the new unit.

  • theresse
    13 years ago

    I've been researching forever and if I had my choice (and sadly I don't - I have to go w/ the Miele due to the K.A.'s being too deep when you plan on paneling the front for the integrated look as I do), I'd get the top of the line Kitchen Aid. Has great reviews, takes more dishes, cleans really well, takes all kinds of dishes, and on and on and on.

    Just sticks out - they say - painfully so, if you're getting the integrated kind. More than any other dishwasher on the market. Darn them. And darn Miele for not letting us have bigger cereal bowls! :( Anyway, Miele has a better reputation than Bosch. Sorry for the monkey wrench.

    Also, K.A. is cheaper! Just get an extended warrantee - whatever you get.

  • gwentm
    13 years ago

    I just had the KUDE70 installed today. MY KD/Contractor recessed it a bit. Though the front panel is not in yet, it looks like it will be perfectly integrated.

  • theresse
    13 years ago

    My contractor refuses to recess it, claiming because it's only a 2x4 (as opposed to 2x6) and is on an outside wall, that it's not a good idea. Hmph!

  • creek_side
    13 years ago

    He's right, especially if you are located in deep cold country.

  • gwentm
    13 years ago

    Mine is on an interior wall and I live in S Florida. I am more concerned about moisture and mold.

  • fun2cook
    13 years ago

    I had a KA dishwasher that worked great and very quiet for 12 years. The pump went out, but I consider 12 years to be a fair run. The replacement is a Whirlpool Gold. It's quiet and very efficient, but it doesn't clean well. Funny because according to Consumer Reports, this model was rated "excellent" on cleaning, but not in my experience. I prefer my old KA for washing and loading.

  • debbiey
    13 years ago

    My 3 year old KA replaced a wonderful, 15 year old KA DW. It does not clean well, did not last very long and is no longer under warranty, KA has not been helpful at all on this.

  • bayareafrancy
    13 years ago

    I hate hate hate my Bosch. I had to get the Bosch because I needed the European size, and we couldn't afford the Miele (got the Bosch at a discount place). It cleans fine, and things fit well in it. But it has given me a few technical scares, and each time I've trembled with fear over the thought of a very expensive service call. Luckily, we haven't needed one yet (husband has managed to fix things). But oh, that day will come. I know it will. And then we'll be left with a custom panel, and no dishwasher. I hope we can use the panel on a Miele someday. How I wish we would have just spent the extra money in the beginning. I really regret the Bosch.

  • theresse
    13 years ago

    Fun2cook - consumer reports is full of doody. ;) Their ratings are absolutely useless unless you're only using them for general feature comparisons. They are NEVER able to match user-reviews w/ consistency and in fact often recommend the opposite of that which users would recommend after using them regularly over time (i.e. time-tested).

    For example, look how they rate Bosch's at the top and then click on the item and see the user reviews. Now scroll down to the Miele waaay down on the list and click on their user-reviews. And I've noticed this consistently for a very long time now. Also, other review sites tend to be more consistent (w/ user-reviews) than CR. Nough said!

    I'm not saying Bosch's aren't good - I'm really not. I'm just saying there are more complaints than there are for Mieles which yes cost significantly more. Now I'm of course going to get a lemon of a Miele because I've tempted the fates - hahaha.

    While you get what you pay for, there is something to be said about getting a machine that's only meant to last 10 years as opposed to Miele's 20 years. And that is that if you get an extended warrantee COMBINED with the realization that in 10 years there will be great advances in dishwashers (so you may want to upgrade anyway) COMBINED with the Kitchen Aid or Whirlpool, etc., costing less... it's all a wash in the end, no pun intended, and it could be argued in the cheaper machine's favor. See what I mean? :) I guess the only disadvantage of going that route is that you have to deal w/ the hassles of your cheaper machine needing service calls and being out of commission for a few days every so often, but hopefully no more than once or twice over its lifetime (?).

  • jakkom
    13 years ago

    >>Prefer to not use a jet dry product>>

    Unfortunately, most DWs are using evaporative drying. A rinse agent assists in its efficiency.

  • benjayva
    13 years ago

    My Cabinet guy putting in my KA 70 panel ready as we speak. He has recessed it as much as possible...thanks GW I asked about this during the planning process. But, he just showed me a side "steam vent" ?? on the right side of the door sooo it can't go back but so far????
    Anyone know about this????? QWIK.....

  • gwentm
    13 years ago

    Benjayva, Does your dishwasher still look integrated or does it stick out a bit? If so, how much? I just sent a copy of your post to my contractor to see if it will be a problem in my installation too. We're waiting for the cabinet maker to finish the panel so it is installed but I haven't used it yet since it has no handle. Thanks

  • kitchendetective
    13 years ago

    I once loved KA. Alas, no more. I had an ancient KA when we bought our first home when we married 28 years ago. The dishwasher was already old when we bought the home. It had one service call while we owned the house, and was still going strong when we sold the house six years later. I put a KA in the new house and it needed some service calls right away. Nevertheless, I still bought a KA for our next home. It got replaced under warranty. Then the replacement had issues. I also had problems with every other KA appliance I purchased, except for my old, old KA/Hobart mixer. Today, as a matter of fact, my four year old Pro-Line coffee maker, already replaced once, died for good. KA informed me this morning that they are retiring the entire Pro-Line Series and cannot repair or replace the dead coffee maker. As a gesture of good will, they are going to send me an appliance that is of lesser value than what we paid for the defunct coffee maker, which they believe is nice because the coffee maker is out of warranty. I have had ice makers break, coffee makers break, mixers break, dishwashers break, coffee grinders break, immersion blenders break, replacements of same break, and probably some things I cannot recall right at the moment break. I think KA is a company that was once great and now sucks, unfortunately. As for Bosch: I bought two Bosch dishwashers, installed four and a half years ago in our then new build. So far, knock wood, no problems. Bayareafrancy, if I understand you correctly, you hate yours because you anticipate that they will give you reason to hate them in the future and so you hate them in advance? Anyway, if my current dishwashers go bad, I'm not sure what I'll do. It seems reputations are unreliable after about five years these days. Everyone bashes Bosches on this forum, although it seems the bashers are referring to machines built within the past four years or so. So, how does one truly evaluate machines being built in the current atmosphere of world-wide economic pressure and rapidly changing regulation?

  • ashebooks
    13 years ago

    My Bosch has been repair free for 13 years. Only problem is since I purchased a new set of china (Denby - square) I can't get as many dishes in.

  • semi
    13 years ago

    My Bosch died at four years. Bummed me out.
    Replacing it with the KA KUDE70 mentioned above.

  • segesta
    13 years ago

    My Bosch gave me 7 years of great, quiet service, then has required yearly repairs. In fact, it's sitting unused 20 feet away right now, waiting for a part for a MONTH.

    Next will be a Miele.

  • mindstorm
    13 years ago

    Everything kitchendetective has to say, I second, except her long familiarity with KA anything. Not sure I've owned anything made by KA but I am thrilled to bits with my workhorse of a Bosch DW. Mid-line 500 series, 5 year vintage. It is one appliance where I put stuff in, magic happens, and reliably hot, clean, dry dishes appear. And really really amazingly clean dishes at that. I don't have etching or scratches or anything. The dishes are polished clean when I remove them. I use Jet Dry on setting 1 so my Jet Dry lasts an age.

    I also interpreted bayareafrancy's comments exactly the way kitchDet did. "So far it has done its dishwasher duties just fine but I hate it because I anticipate that it will fail me in the future.". Well. Not sure what to say except that I hope she's not watching the World Cup?!! LOL! ;-)

  • mrsthesun
    13 years ago

    We recently (4 months ago) installed the KitchenAid KUDE70. Love, love, LOVE it! My dishes are spotless and dry when the cycle finishes. It has loads of room inside and since it has the 3rd culinary tool rack, if I need extra space I remove the silverware basket from the bottom rack and can add even more things. Mine was installed in my island and it is totally integrated. It doesn't stick out at all and blends in totally with the rest of the cabinets. I couldn't be happier with my choice of dishwashers.

  • kitchendetective
    13 years ago

    Don't know how representative these complaints are as they pertain to various models, vintages, only negatives, etc., but they are probably worth a perusal.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Consumer Affairs Link KA DWs

  • bayareafrancy
    13 years ago

    My Bosch has indeed done its duties pretty well. Not as well as my previous Kenmore, however. It has had a bunch of little irksome problems, and at least one very scary one that my husband was able to fix. I have had it for 3 years.

    1. Bottom rack is very loose/floppy and will fall off the track on a daily basis
    2. Odd odors
    3. Fussy drainage
    4. Oddly configured flatware basket that won't fit in most positions without tilting.

    But it does clean the dishes.

    The latch began to fail about a year ago, and in trying to fix it, I accidentally stuck it in a locked position with the machine open. Scared the bejeebers out of me, and Bosch wanted to charge me for an expensive service call to basically flip it back for me. After a lot of googling (and finding many, many, many people with latch problems), I managed to fix it.

    Last month, the machine abruptly stopped mid-cycle and completely died. Well, thought I, this is IT. The machine has died, and my goose is cooked! So I began googling and reading of oh so many Bosch owners with dead machines after just a couple years. One site said that the problem might actually be an easily fixed burned out wire. Easily fixed? Something my husband can do? I don't need to call Bosch? Could it be?

    My husband removed the metal toe kick thingy on the bottom. The inside of the metal was black. He showed me the wire: melted! How very scary looking. But. Gulp. Easy to fix.

    So, my floppy, smelly, fussy-draining, basket-tilting, latch-failing, wire-melting Bosch is back to cleaning the dishes.

    Which, as I said in my first post, it does fairly well. And yet, I do hate the machine. See why?

    I never had such DW stress with my old Kenmore.

  • gwentm
    13 years ago

    mrsthesun, benjayva wrote that his plumber could not recess and install the KUDE70 as fully inegrated because of a side vent. Are you having any problems with a side vent in your dishwasher? Also, if possible, can you post a picture of your integrated dishwasher?

  • kitchendetective
    13 years ago

    Yup, bayareafrancy, that stuff would irk me, too. Assuming I had verified all the proper installation issues, I'd raise a stink. Again, this seems to fall into that within-the-past-four-years manufacturing time line that I'm noticing. What model do you have? Mine are labeled SHV99A03UC/14 and were probably built about five years ago.

  • benjayva
    13 years ago

    Hey gwentm thanks for asking question to mrsthesun.
    I don't know how much mine will stick out yet. The cab guy said it can go back "almost" flush w/ other cabs fronts. But, that darn thing that looks like a vent on the right is right there??? I need to pull the book and/or call KA. Crazy here so I have been obsessing about other stuff :) Can't wait to hear from mrsthesun.

  • mindstorm
    13 years ago

    bayareafrancy, your first complaint makes me believe your DW isn't installed correctly. Either it is sorely out of level or your DW door springs or hinges or something are set too low. The lower basket rolls on tracks inset into the door. These tracks are designed so that although level, the slope of the door is "uphill" past the track. In order for me to roll mine off the tracks and all the way off, I'd have to roll mine against gravity - not an easy thing even on an entirely empty basket. The only way for these to roll off the door is for the door (or the DW) to be pitched down to make it roll with gravity - safe to say, that is out of spec. That's an installer problem.

    BTW, an out of level install means other things will go out of whack - I wouldn't be surprised if your odd drainage is related to a poor install, too.

    Who was your installer? (I have a guess). I'd have it re-installed by somebody who knows what they're doing.
    Else you're probably right to fret about an imminent failure. Few mechanical systems are robust to an out-of-level installation - and that's what I'd blame for your experience.

  • bayareafrancy
    13 years ago

    Thanks for the reply Mindstorm.

    Re: the off-track rack: It slips off sideways, not forwards. The wheels are not really set in to any track. So if you pull it out too hard, or too much to the side (as one might when leaning over from the sink) it slips off the "track" sideways. How far sideways it moves depends on how hard you grab it, and we've learned to pull it slowly, and straight to the front. I'm pretty sure this is a design issue. Boys does it ever drive me bonkers! (The tilting, ill-fitting flatware baskets are also a design issue.)

    We think the drainage issue might be because we don't have an air-gap. However, the DW isn't required to have one (and my plumber seemed fine with that), as long as the hose is high enough. I've read many other posts about drainage problems, so I'm not sure what the problem is there.

    I really don't think we have an out-of-level install.

    I think we have a newer "don't make them like they used to" Bosch. I hope it doesn't hear me saying bad things about it. It's probably because it overheard me previously that the wire melted!

    ;-)

    francy

  • bayareafrancy
    13 years ago

    Mindstorm:

    I wasn't going to say anything, but in the interest of internet civility, I would like to add that your saying

    "Who was your installer? (I have a guess). I'd have it re-installed by somebody who knows what they're doing."

    is not very nice. If you truly wanted to offer me helpful advice (devoid of criticism or blame), then your post could have simply omitted that sentence. It was an unkind addition.

    :-(

    francy

  • mindstorm
    13 years ago

    francy,

    I stand by all I wrote, and I while I did intend to try to be helpful, I've never tried to avoid either criticism or blame. How is that helpful?!

    I could carry this further because your "explanation" about the machine's designs or how you interface with them don't imbue one with much confidence about your capabilities with the machine. Your diagnosis of the problem is in essence "how hard you pull something sideways that is designed to travel straight" ... Uh, okay.

    When we were children, my mother would frequently exhort that we not be "brutes", "savages" or "be uncouth". I was never sure if we attended her exhortations, but seeing as how I've never successfully rolled a DW basket - any DW basket - I think that I, at least, may have!

    I'm pretty confident the machine doesn't need an airgap to drain. Mine does quite well without.

  • beers
    13 years ago

    Had a KA dishwasher in our last house - worked great, super quiet, cleaned very well. Best dishwasher we've ever had. We're now emodeling our kitchen in our new house and will be getting another KA -

  • bayareafrancy
    13 years ago

    Mindstorm:

    My purpose is to address the OP's question.

    I have no idea why you feel the need to actually be rude and mocking to me!! How mean spirited.

    I would appreciate it if you ceased from ever addressing me directly in your posts. I have no desire to continue any conversation with you.

  • mrsthesun
    13 years ago

    I responded to gwentm on another thread with regard to the KUDE70 being fully integrated and forgot to come back to answer her question here. I got out the installation instructions and the owner's manual and there was nothing in either about the side vent. The installation instructions said that: "for some models" (doesn't say which ones!) "Remove the backing of the moisture barrier and apply to underside of the countertop along the front edge of the counter." It makes me wonder if that side vent is actually a working vent. If it were I would have thought that it would have said to apply the moisture barrier on the cabinet beside that side vent. I have looked at my cabinet beside that vent and have never seen evidence of moisture. I also stopped my dishwasher three times during a cycle and felt the cabinet and never felt any moisture.

    My dishwasher is totally flush with the rest of my cabinets but as I said, mine is in an island. My installer was able to recess the DW so that the panel was totally level across the front with the rest of the cabinets.

    I hope this helps. Good luck with your installation. If you have any concerns I would be glad to try to help. I LOVE my dishwasher and would choose it again in a minute.

  • mojavean
    13 years ago

    Bayareafrancy's beef with the bottom rack in the Bosch is something we too have experienced. It is not a matter of pulling sideways with intent, it is a matter of the angle you happen to be standing when you pull the drawer out. There really isn't any railing at all in our Bosch. The bottom rack rolls out on a lip in the side walls of the machine and out onto the door. There is nothing holding it in position other than gravity and a couple of ledges the wheels roll down. It is easy to derail, although it is no big issue so long as it doesn't roll off the side of the door and onto the floor.

    We have owned a few dishwashers in our day, most of them crappy. I bought a Kitchenaid about 12 years ago when the POS G&S model that came with the house died. We got rid of the KA maybe 6 years ago when we started the move to stainless, but that KA is still going strong in my youngest's kitchen. But while it did work well, it was also noisy. Our Bosch was really our second one, the first failed after a couple of months so I took it back to Sears for a replacement. The replacement has performed flawlessly, no burned wires (something that would seriously concern me, btw) and the rolling off the rails thing doesn't happen too often -- and when it does I just pick up the rack and put it back into position.

    I am afraid my Bosch will just keep on working and not allow me to buy one of the new Miele dishwashers with the LED lights inside and the flat bottom basket. Not owning one of those terrifies me.

  • idrive65
    13 years ago

    The bottom rack of my (professionally installed!) Bosch skews all the time. I usually notice it when pushing it back in while standing to the side -- I have to go around to the front and carefully align it straight in. This never, ever happened on my old Kenmore (or any other dw I've used in 46 years. I also find the Bosch a total pain to try to fit dishes into. The dishes are sparkling clean, but I fight with the dishes and racks whenever I load it.

  • kitchendetective
    13 years ago

    What model Bosch are you operating? What do the wheels look like? This "skewing" is not a problem that I have ever encountered.

  • idrive65
    13 years ago

    Mine is a SHE43M05UC.

  • mindstorm
    13 years ago

    I'm frankly completely bowled over by this account of all these Bosch trays going pear-shaped! Like kitchdet - I've *never* had nor can I wrap my head around this observation. Not only have I never had this problem in 5 years with my DW, after reading one of these accounts, I *tried* to make my DW tray go sideways and hand-on-heart I tell you that you have to fight gravity to make that happen. Even an entirely empty tray, is heavy enough that (F = Mass * g) is too significant to easily make go uphill over the lip. Same thing to go sideways - those wheels themselves have a big-enough lip that you'd have to be pretty determined in your handling to make it climb the half-centimeter wall.

    Mojavean's definition of the door/track describes mine well. But for it to jump tracks I have to practically lift the wretched tray - it isn't light (and I'm no weakling - I run both distance and pace regularly do 12mile runs and yoga and crap like that regularly).

    Well, well. Either we have quite the rowdy bunch here or I'll have to eat my words. ;-)

  • mojavean
    13 years ago

    Well, plainly it is going to be necessary to demonstrate.

  • catherineri
    13 years ago

    All energy efficiency aside, I wish I had my old heating element for drying. The Bosch consistently leaves things wet even with jet dry and it holds less. (It is one of the more expensive models). Must be hyper vigilant about tilting everything and even then the dish towel gets used.

  • dyno
    13 years ago

    I agree with everyone else about Bosch dishracks....they are a pain compared to previous Whirlpool and Maytags. If you own stoneware, forget it.

    Good machine otherwise - quiet, cleans well. We've never used heated dry as it's energy intensive so that's a non-issue for us. Main reason I chose it was because of the leak detection/containment feature.

  • malhgold
    13 years ago

    We have the Bosch SHV45M03UC. I have the same problem with the lower rack getting off track easily. Mine doesn't even clean that well. Seems there's always 1 dish that is full of baked on grime, residue left in 1 or 2 glasses and a few of the utensils not getting clean. I'm going to try "cleaning" the DW and then switching to the Finish tablets, in the hopes that my dishes will get cleaner. And loading the top rack is a nightmare. Bowls don't fit well at all.

  • tarheel72
    13 years ago

    Everone will have a preference. We got the KUDE70 early this year and it has been great. We replaced an integrated model that had a cabinet panel. It was flush with the surrounding cabinets. The new KA sticks out about the depth of the door. But, it looks great. It is still recessed under the granite countertop overhang and the sides of the door are SS so it looks very nice and modern. And this allows you to see the soft blue glow of the status indicators. Which comes in handy because this thing is so quiet you can not always tell if it is running. It took about three weeks to get the right combination of our water and which detergent to use, but now we have no problems. New washers have different cycles than older ones, so your old methods might not work anymore. We are very pleased with it.

  • kittymerr
    13 years ago

    My 6 year old Bosch will not be repaired one more time. 4 times in 6 years, including a new motor, which was way louder then the old one, just 4 months ago. I have hated this dishwasher since installing it 6 years ago, paid $1100. Will never buy another Bosch. Thinking of Miele, but hating the price tag. Wished the KA had better reviews... what to do what to do!

  • ecranny
    13 years ago

    I am considering a KA KUDE60, but after reading this thread I am now concerned about the depth (I assume the 60 and 70 are the same dimensions). I will not be doing an integrated finish (with an add-on panel) but I definitely want the built-in look. I am not sure if I would like to have the sides of the door showing.

    Does anyone have pictures showing the 'sticky-outness' of these dishwashers? Is it the full thickness of the door?

  • peaches12345
    13 years ago

    TARHEEL72-
    Which detergent have you found works best??? My KA KUDE60 will be installed early next week!

    I'm beginning to wonder if my 11 yr old KA has quit cleaning my dishes because of the detergent. Repairman can't find a thing wrong with it, but everything on the top level comes out dirty. What the heck, life's too short to sweat the small stuff, but I really want to use the best detergent for the new one.

  • weissman
    13 years ago

    patty0315 - try using Finish Quantum - of the new phosphate free detergents it's the top rated one. I used to use Cascade Complete powder and before I ran out of the box with phosphates, I tried Finish Quantum and it works great. The only drawback is that it comes in pre-measured capsules so you can't use more or less.

  • xc60
    13 years ago

    Ecranny, I have the KA KUDE70 installed in our new build. I will take some photos for you tonight when I view the house. From what I remember the door is almost flush with countertop edge but the handle sticks out from there. Hope that helps.

  • xc60
    13 years ago

    Here are the photos, handle is not on yet.

  • loraccia
    12 years ago

    How does one decide?

    Make sure to check reliability ratings. I needed a dishwasher and saw the beautiful new kitchenaid and was a sucker for it's good looks.

    Oh how I wish I had bough the Bosch!!! I used to love Kitchenaid dishwashers ...not very impressed these days. My top rack broke after 3 months and I have been waiting over 5 weeks for the replacement part. May I never ever hear the phrase "The part's back ordered" ever again.