Can't help you there, mominthedubc. My Bosch is 12 yrs old and I would guess nothing like the new ones except that it cleans remarkably well, is very quiet and has never etched my glasses. It also has never needed repairs.

Our Miele Diamante is very quiet - other family members were amazed how quiet it is after it was first installed

We have the Miele Diamante G2150SC and we think its fabulous. Very quiet. I had it on while doing laundry (in the kitchen because its an apartment stack set up) and kept having to touch the DW to check that it was on. Three day old dried spaghetti sauce disappeared so, yup, cleans well too.

The Asko model we like is model number D3251XLFI

CR rates just 2 'excellent' for noise: Asko encore and Bosch SHE45C0[2]UC.

The Asko costs $900 more and rates much worse for frequency of repair-- 9% of Bosch, 15% of Asko.

The Meile inspira rates very well overall, but only 'very good' on noise-- many, many models achieve that.

Kenmore is very spotty, one model was rated a 'best buy', but one of the 'Elite' models scored the worst overall in the test.

Correcting myself: I confused two Bosch models. The one rated 'excellent' for noise is the SHX98M0[9]UC, which costs about the same as the Asko.

Thanks all of you who have given me such great info. I still don't know what to do. Was going to get the Miele Optima (per salesperson's suggestions) but will wait and hope to hear from more of you re: quiet and efficient DW's, before making a decision. Plus I wil do some more research. Keep those suggestions coming!

Cu is rating the top of the line Bosch series( 800 I think) with the bottom of the line Miele series so this is what I mean by keeping comparisons equal. The optima is in the middle and the Excella and Laperla are at the upper end.

I don't have the Cu article. How did the Miele score for frequency of repair?
Where did the KA score for sound and repair?

Thanks

We have two single F&P DDs and love everything about them. They are very quiet.

However, we had a Bosch in a summer place last year and it was absolutely silent.

Perfectly clean dishes and glassware, too.

FWIW, the FP dishdrawers are far and above the worst for frequency of repair. This was reported in Austrailia before they ever came to the US, and the situation hasn't improved: a full 25% (IIRC) need a service call according to CR.

That's not to say they aren't worth it, but if you live a looong way from approved service [like I do], it might be something to consider.

Thanks.
Beherenow, that's a good rec since according to the specs the Diamante is one step below the Optima that we are considering, so if yours is really quiet, then the Optima should be quieter.

Jerrod6, By Cu, do you mean CR-Consumer Reports? I understand what you say about comparing brands and models equally but since CR doesn't do that, I don't where to find that out. But, I have been doing some reading and research and wrote down models of DW that had good reviews. Found that the Bosch SHE98MO is the quietest Bosch at 42DB ( & the quietest DW made in America) and the Miele Optima is a Q4 rating which would be equivalent to 46 DB. A Bosch SHE68 is 45 DB. So, then the question is, how significant is the difference between the Db's, and which brand is better overall; quietness, energy efficiency, cleaning and repairs?

Mominthedubc

Yes I meant CR - Consumer Reports. I know the SHE98MO is advertised as the quietest machine made in the USA and they are correct. Miele is made in Europe and you can only get the 42db if you go to the top of the line models just like the Bosch SHE98MO is.

I have other Bosch appliances and like them but cannot speak about the Bosch DW. My neighbors have them and have never complained. Also I can only comment on the Miele model I have because I have not used the other ones. Other folks have commented here about the Optima, and other models.

Mine uses about 4 liters per fill which may be approximately 1.06 gallons, but it may use more or less depending on the load size. No Miele needs a hot water connection so you don't have to provide 120F water like other brands. I am not sure how that impacts energy efficiency since it is designed to heat the water itself, while the others ask you to heat it to 120F to get things started. Mine is connected to hot water so that's what it gets when the water line in the Kitchen has hot water in it, but in the winter when I am not in the kitchen the hot water it gets is around 60F so the Dw must do the rest of the heating. The water is warmer but not hot in the summer because with such small amounts of water being used the hot water never makes it from the heater into the kitchen. There is also the fact that it is using a fan to help condensation drying so that will use some electricity too.

The sensor cycle gives you a prewash, wash and two rinses(may be about 4.2 gallons), but depending on the soil level it may skip the water change between the prewash and wash, and if the dishes are dirty or it finds too many suds in the first rinse it will add a 3rd rinse. The fill amount is adjusted to the size of the load. The time varies by soil level and of course incoming water temperature.

I had my first Miele Dw for 10 years with no problems and replaced it in 2006 when I redid the kitchen. At first I was going to keep the old one since nothing was wrong with it, then I decided to replace it for 3 reasons:

1 I looked at the cycle specs and found they were close to the ones in my previous model, with some good additions, and I looked at the build of the machine and saw that at least the build quality was still there. Of course looks can be deceiving. I also wanted the water softener for my water conditions because it allows me to use less detergent.

2. The Black and Stainless steel panel went better with my new kitchen scheme.

3. By the time my current one gave out who knows what coming next?

No problems so far with this machine...even so there are no guarantees from machine to machine brand to brand

Cleaning:

I can put a glass au gratin casserole with burned on cheese and potatoes into it and it comes out clean...so no problems cleaning anything. I think there was another message in this thread regarding this with the entry level Miele Dw so I think they will all clean well.

Repairs:

None of mine have ever been repaired but I had the Miele service tech out to check my washer stand a few months ago. While he was here he offered to check the DW because he said Miele wasn't in the business of making money off of service calls because it is a support function and not a money generator, so he said that he might as well check the DW while he was here(he did it no charge). He connected his laptop to the optical interface on the control panel and started the machine. He was able get a read out of any mechanical faults recorded(there were none), and he also checked out the components as the machine was moving through the cycle. The component info was appearing on the lap top computer screen as the machine was moving through the cycle.

Kind of interesting to see information like: the fill valve status, circulation pump RPMS as they increased up to about 3700, water flow control valve status, target water temp, actual water temp, water hardness, water spray pressure and bunch of other technical stuff that kept changing saying "on" "off" "open" "closed" "undetermined" "pending". Whatever..... anyway he understood this. He also made it drain, and move to the dry cycle to check the fan operation. I also found out that my machine has run for 743 hours! So at least the repair guys have the tools to check the machine without having to remove it from the kitchen cabinet.

People like their KA and Miele's. People love their Bosch's so I don't think you can go too wrong with any of these brands.

FWIW (which I know isn't much), my F&P DishDrawer (DD03) will be 5 years old in a few months, and I've never had trouble or repairs. A significant percentage of trouble on them is related to user error, such as loading an item such that it blocks the drawer lid from sealing which causes a flood fault, or a large knife loaded blade-up causing a cut in the lid seal when closing the drawer, and so forth.

Jerrod, WOW! Thanks so much. How did you become such an "expert"? I appreciate your detailed response, very informative. I will keep researching and listening to people until I feel comfortable w/ my choice. I think you are right, I can't go wrong with Asko, Miele, Bosch or KA. But, since we are spending more than $1,000, I REALLY want to make sure we buy a DW that we love and have no regrets about.

Dadoes, my sis has FP DW Drawers and really likes them and hasn't had any problems w/ them & that's what I thought I would get initially (would have made my decision pretty stress free) but my DH did not want drawers, so that's why I am in this decision dilemna!

Here is a link that may help you understand decibels.

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html

mominthedubc

I pay close attention to every appliance, mechanical, and electronic thing I buy so I am just a Geek, a Nerd, that's all.

Miele is releasing their next models to NA sometime this year. If you go to the Miele web site in Australia you can download their 2007 brochure. Yes they were released in other parts of the world last year.

It will give you a good idea of what we may expect from the newer models. I say may because in the past some of these - not all - were also released in NA but we cannot tell what will happen this year.

I did look at the upgrade to my current model - it has a 2 added on the model number 2832 instead of 2830. Same machine with some additional functionality and one decibel quieter 41db instead of my 42db. This is usually what they do.. improve a few new things to what is all ready there.

Robert thanks for the link. I'll check it out.
what brand of Dw do you have?

Robert, Thank you, that site was very helpful The "Perceptions of Increases..." was exactly what I was looking for.

Jerrod...I love Geeks! So glad I am benefiting from your interests and knowledge. What DW do you have (sorry if you told me, I can't find it.)? I will check out the Australian website, thanks.

Oruboris, interesting that CR rated the Asko and Bosch SHE45C0[2]UC as the quietest when there are several Bosch models (according to their website) that are quieter. I guess that just means that is the quietest of the ones they tested???? That's what's confusing here, if you only make a decision based on CR, there must be hundreds of models they did not test.

That's why I am depending on my friends here on GW to share their recommendations. So, if you love your DW's efficiency and quiteness, PLEASE tell me what the brand and model is. Thank you.

I have a G2830. Miele doesn't typically name their machines they just use model numbers, but they are now supplying names for areas that are used to having names, so the model is a G2830SCi LaPerla

I have an excella about one year

You won't go wrong with the miele and you really can't tell the difference among the top 3 in terms of quiet.

Jerrod6, Yours is definitely rated the quietest but also more expensive, naturally. Q5 = 42Db

Robert, your Excella is a Q4 = 44Db and I am kooking at the Optima which is a Q3 = 46Db. I just wonder if the difference in the Q rating or equivalent Db will be noticeable.

Thanks.

I think you would have to have at least a 3 decible difference to have a barely perceptible difference

10 db difference is twice as loud or twice as quiet

canuck99 - "10 db difference is twice as loud or twice as quiet"

True, IF (big word) the same person is doing the measuring in the same manner!

If you are comparing apples to apples same person etc then 10 db is twice as loud I was just trying to make sure people understood the relative science.

Robert L... Do you think the difference between 42DB to 46Db would be perceptible, as opposed to barely perceptible? Or with yours and the one we are considering it would be 2 Db difference and that would be a barely perceptible difference. Would you say your DW is silent, very quiet or pretty quiet? Weird question, I know, sorry.

Some idea on relative noise

http://www.quietnoise.com/facts.htm

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article121-page1.html

So from reference 2 the 4 db is noticeble but in the
library like.

Mom,

It can't be silent because it is a machine. I can barely hear it when I am on top of it and listening for it. If the TV is on or we are talking you can't hear it.

I really can't answer your others questions.

Sorry

"Do you think the difference between 42DB to 46Db would be perceptible, as opposed to barely perceptible? "

No one can really answer questions like this. Loudness is subjective. Its frequency, duration, etc. has a lot to do with whether it is annoying or not. A high pitch whine coming and going may be worse to you than a low pitch one that is constant, which your brain may tune out after a while.

Some of the stores around us have these machines wired so that you can hear them running. So if you want to be sure, that is the test you want to do.

At the end of the day though, all of the high-end machines are quiet enough.

Thanks! Robert, you did answer my question. And Amirm, "At the end of the day though, all of the high-end machines are quiet enough.", I think that really answers my question. I guess because I bought one DW that was suppose to be quiet and it wasn't and we are spending so much, I just want to make sure. But, like you said, hopefully the high end DW's will be very good.

A poor install will make 42db sound like 50db, so the most important thing to do is to make sure your contractor does a good install of whatever DW you decide to get. (no spaces or gaps, even ask if he can make a cabinet around it(sides and back - wherever it may be exposed)if space permits.

I think anyone one of the higher end brands you are considering will be fine.

Jerrod6, Thanks so much, I appreciate the suggestions and the vote of confidence!

Was just at EXPO today. Bosch owns Thermador, but
the Thermador dishwasher actually has a lower decibel
rating than Bosch. I had a THermador in my previous home,
since it is sleek with matching professional handle
to other applicances. I loved it, it cleaned great,
and was amazingly quiet. It's about the same price
as Bosch, but has a nicer handle.

Joe, that's very interesting! Is this the top of the line Thermador vs. top of the line Bosch or all models? I will try to find out more on this. I just want a VERY quiet DW that cleans well. Appreciate the info. Thanks.

Wish I could say more. Thermador only has 2 models, a
4 cylce and a 6 cycle, but I think their sound ratings
are equal. If memory serves me correctly, it has a 48db
rating, while Bosch was 53, but don't quote me for sure.
And I'm not sure which Bosch, but it was a comparably priced
Bosch at the Expo dealer.

ful now Canuck, 10db difference is not ACTUALLY twice as loud ,or quiet. It's simply not absoulute caculation or measurement. It is regarded to be percieved by many/most people to seeem that way, but is still quite subjective. Kinda like the folks around here that claim THEIR Dw is really silent. Sure it's very quiet, but if it has moving parts it makes a sound, you perception may differ as to what is silent.

Whoever said all of the high end units will be quiet enough is correct. Their oven, refridgerators and convection microwwave are likely to make more noise ( and SEEM louder )than the DW. Forget it if they have a standalone ice machine.

Joeby - you must be going off old info. T'dor's curent lineup features 3 models and their best one is rated 2 db LOUDER than the quietest Bosch unit. Comparably priced doesn't quite get done either, you are not just buying quietness. See the high end Bosch vs. low end Miele discussion above.

Oruboris - interesting to know about the Kiwi prob. w/ the DD. We had not heard about this en masse problem. This alos points out a flaw w/ consumer reports, 25% failure rate? This will doom any manufacturing co. Since FP only had the DD for a while when they first came to this market I find it implausible that they had that kind of fauilure rate. Also CR doesn't distinguish btw a svc. call for improper install vs. a bad pump, say. Their sample size is quite small also. How much penetration do drawer DW's have? 25% of the entire market. I doubt it's even that high. Of the generous 25% how many subscribe to CR? How many of those fillout the survey? If it's 8 people and 2 have ANY kind of problem then wolla, a 25% failure rate. Mabey our experience is a better bellweather???? I'll bet we've place 2 dozen DD's since they came to N.America and have had 0 that's right 0 service calls, 100% satisfication. Now to think you're gonna get a dish drawer and have no problems based on our experience is absurd, the sample is way too small, and many of our customers don't use the unit regularily. Now CR has a larger sample than us but it's still quite small when they rate high end speciality gear. The % of that type is just not as accurate as as with mass market units, like a whirlpool DW.

Ants

The 10 db difference is technically twice as loud. The perception has more to do what the frequency of the noise and how much hearing loss you have in that frequency range. So the difference between people has more to do with the noise fequency range and the amount of hearing loss in the range. Therefore not really perception. If you have ever had a detailed frequency based hearing test you will understand. I have work placed hearing tests that shows how many decibels lost in the various frequency ranges for a number of years.

NO Canuck, better go back to school. It is not a linear problem to solve. Sure, 10db sounds louder to most but TECHNICALLY it's not that simple a problem. So, that makes it perception. Another thing to consider would be pressure levels produced by a given sound, this also contributes to "loudness", but would complicat things even further.

Besides you seem to be focusing on harmful to longterm hearing noises at a workplace. DW's especially the high end ones being discussed here are all about as loud as a normal conversation. I'll wager one of the DW's that you or anyone else here would not say the teh top of the line Bosch DW is twice as quiet as their entry level one which is rated 10db louder that their top one. I'll bet many here couldn't even pick the quietest one consistently in a blind test.

Perhaps a look at the sites you linked may refresh your memory.

All this jawing does is confuse most people with too much info that they aren't able to process for the most part anyway. All of these high end DW's will be quiet enough for most folks. Which one is "quietest" will boil down to final install an an individuals ears. Perception.

Wow, all I am looking for is a quiet sounding DW that is a low hum, where I don't need to turn the TV volume up.

I had an entry level Bosch in my old house (it was priced around $600 and had only 3 different wash cycles). That was about 10 years ago. It was the "noisiest" of the Bosch machines and was so quiet I barely knew it was running. It cleaned exceptionally well. I think the sound rating was 52 db.

In my house now I have the FP dishdrawers. I chose them because they were more space efficient. However, they are much noisier than any of the Bosch machines. You can definitely tell they are running and if the dishes clang around at all during the wash cycle, it's very noisy. I can sometimes hear them from the other side of the house. With the Bosch, even the dishes clanging was muffled to a large extent. It's also notable that they have a plastic interior which stains and also makes condensation drying less effective. I have it set to use the fan to help dry the dishes. In terms of cleaning it does nearly as well as the Bosch but not quite on par. Occasionally I'll have something fall under the rack and it will obstruct the water sprayer. There is only the one sprayer per drawer so if something happens and it gets stuck, nothing gets clean.

I like the ergonomics and space efficienty of the drawers and overall I am pleased with them despite the other drawbacks.

I've looked at the Asko and it's *very* water and energy efficient. But CR rates it as very repair prone. Not nearly as bad as the FP dishdrawers (something like 25% had repairs within 2 years) but second only to them. A friend also had the Asko and had nothing but repair problems. She finally replaced it with a Bosch. Now all this said, I have not had any repair issues with my dishdrawers in the 2.5 years I've had them. I can see that many repair issues likely just stem from the mechanical apparatus that raises and lowers the lid. But for the $1300 you pay, you would certainly hope that everything holds up well.

Clean Freak...Ditto on "for the $1300 you pay, you would certainly hope that everything holds up well." It seems I hear so much more about the Bosch, although on GW I hear positive things about the Miele and Asko as well. But the salespeople at the Appliance store, really recommended the Miele over the Bosch. Guess that's why I am dragging my feet. I had never really heard about the Miele before we started this project so I want to make sure we are making the right decision, especially spending so much $.

mominthe dubc - as I posted above, our Miele Diamante is very quiet - other family members were amazed how quiet it is after it was first installed.

FWIW, the appliance dealer I trust (where we bought our original appliances when we built our house 17 years ago and where we bought everything for our recent kitchen remodel) very much favored Miele over Bosch or Asko (and they sell them all). This dealer hasn't steered us wrong (all the 17 year old appliances were still working) in their recommendations.

I had planned to go with a Bosch becuase of the budget - but when they had the Miele Diamante at a special Home Show price, I couldn't pass it up. Very glad I did. Besides being extremely quiet, Miele manages all their service requests which helps them become aware of problems which in turns helps them continue to improve their product. If you can get the Miele, do so and don't look back

Berry... "If you can get the Miele, do so and don't look back", that's what I am hoping for! And that's what my DH is REALLY hoping I will do! Ok, since you say you and your family were amazed how quiet yours is/was and the Diamante is rated a bit lower than the Optima for quieteness, then that's good enough for me. No one here has advised me NOT to get the Miele, so that's pretty good.
Thank you for convincing me!Thanks to everyone for your comments and advice. You are all great!

If you have 2 IDENTICAL DW and each is rated at, say, 45db, how "loud" will they be if you have both on at the same time? Guess what? Only 48db !! Will 2 on together sound "twice as loud" as only one? No! The 2 will sound only slightly louder than just one.

And the 2 of them combined will sound *somewhat* quieter than one 50db DW by itself (all else being equal).

Somewhat counter-intuitive, huh?

"Loudness" is completely subjective but as has already been said, any of the high end units should be very, very quiet. Go for the features, reliability, reputation, etc. Listen to that voice in the back of your head.

Ants

No need to yell with the caps and sound is just frequency (waves) amplitudes(loudness) neither good or bad. Your ears can be harmed by most high db sound.From what I can tell you have 4 paragraphs and not much information. Everything can be put down to perception. I have purchased an Miele Excella and will have it installed soon. I have heard them in operation and satisfied it is quite enough to not get in the way of any activities.

I know our Miele is very quiet. Due to the location being in a very open kitchen that was critical in our decision. There is a drawback though, it is so quiet that it sometimes gets opened while in the wash cycle.

Jab913, just curious...what's the model of your Miele? Does it have visible controls or are they all hidden? Thanks.

We have a Ge Monogram which I would NEVER do again. The only thing it would have going for it is that it IS quiet--as long as you don't care how well it cleans! Even the quietness is a liability: it has the hidden controls, and I'm always saying, "No! No!" when I spot him about to open the dishwasher because he doesn't know it is running. What a waste of money!

mominthedubc--our Optima has the hiden controls with the full panel overlay. KD and DH convinced me that that was the way to go which I agreed to reluctantly. NOw, I am so glad I did, and would never do otherwise if I can avoid it! One less SS appliance to clean (and I happen to like the look of SS appliances), especially one that is often handled with wet hands.

Oops! "Him" being DH, not the dishwasher.

Palomalou, I worry about the hidden controls in that you don't know how long is left in the cycle or if the DW is finished or not. Mine now has a green button when it's finished and I can see the time left so I know if I can open it up or not. Do you find this to be a problem? Can you open the DW up during the cycle to add things? Thanks.