The mieles are much better units but they will have some drawbacks.

Mainly, they are 60cm wide and not 24" so you'll either have to get their compensation strips which are a joke really or have your cabinet co. fab up some thin strips to match your cabinets. Some of their models vent. The La Perlas automatically open the door after cycles and drying to release latent moisture. This helps drying out plastics, which are notorious for being damp after cycles in Euro DWs. ALL miele models come with a "steam guard" / strip that can be fastened and sealed with included silicone on the underside of your countertop if it is wood or a wood product.

Quality of Bosch has gone down hill lately , but they are still serviceable units and they are 24" out of the box, so no fit issues if replacing. Their top of the line unit made in Germany is top notch.

None of the Euro models have a heated dry. That said, plastics don't come out as wet as people make out around the web. Anything that has lots of ridges to trap water and little mass ( sippy cups & lids) is not going to be completely dry in a domestic model with heated dry either!

Plastic cutting boars - dry. Solo cups- dry. Smooth plastic plates - dry, and you can put them anywhere you like - not just on the top rack.

I'd get the Miele if you can handle the cabinetry adjustments. The have at least two models in the $1200 range.

I vote for the Bosch SHX58E15UC. Also order (1) SGZ9091UC which is bag of dishwasher salt made by Finish. Everyone I sell this to loves it. I own the SHX68E15UC myself.

It has the third rack.

A built-in water softener (if you don't have a whole house water softener this works extremely well in keeping your glasses sparkling).

Variable spray pressure (lower pressure on the top rack) so plastic items don't flip upright so easily and it's more gentle at washing plastics and glassware.

Infolight shines a red led indicator on your floor while the cycle is running (45dBA so it's very quiet and hard to tell it's running)

There's no vent - it condensates the moisture fairly well. But you should use Turbo Jet Dry at a high setting. And also increase the final rinse temp through the programming sequence explained in the owner's manual.

Your dealer might be privy to a $100 mail-in rebate offered through some buying groups. This May only rebate is going on all month at my dealership.

Nothing against Miele - a very good brand. But for the money, this Bosch is a customer favorite. And a personal favorite!

fivefootzero,
That's terrible! It's a good thing you noticed, before your cabinets were damaged.
Several months ago I emailed KitchenAid because I too was worried about the vent placement. Here's what they said:

On models without the ProDry� Option, the dishwasher vent stays closed during operation and remains closed for an additional six hours after the dishwasher has stopped running. The closed (inactive) vent protects cabinets and countertops from heat and moisture. The vent opens to allow fresh air inside the dishwasher, once the dishwasher has cooled. The models with the ProDry options will vent out of the bottom of the dishwasher door area.

Thank you,
e-Solutions Specialist
KitchenAid Customer eXperience Center
http://www.KitchenAid.com

It doesn't sound like the vent is acting properly at all. I believe it's supposed to stay closed until hours after each cycle, then open to let fresh air IN. So perhaps on yours the vent was faulty?

If you liked the machine otherwise, you could look for the older FV model, which has the vent on top. I found mine at half price, since it's been discontinued. No steam or condensation at all from the top vent when I run it.

Tress...the dishwasher in no way vents out the bottom.

Top of dishwasher door (NO VENT):

Side of dishwasher door (VENT):

I thought these might be helpful as well...2 responses from KA customer service. And if the unit cannot be pushed back to be flush with cabinetry, how can it be called "fully integrated"? If I pull it out, the control panel shows past the counter top.

I'm so disappointed...

Dated 4/19:

Dear Mrs. A*&^%$#@:

Thank you for visiting the KitchenAid web site. We appreciate hearing from you.

I'm sorry to hear that your new dishwasher is causing you some concern. The unit does vent out the side of the door. The appliance should not be pushed all the way back into the cabinetry. Also, the vent should have an air deflector in there to help the steam come out of the vent and go towards the kitchen, not the cabinetry.

You are a valued KitchenAid customer and we apologize for any inconvenience this concern may have caused.

We invite you to contact KitchenAid again either by calling (800) 334-6889 between 8:00am to 8:00pm EST weekdays or by emailing whenever the need arises. When calling please press the available option or stay on the line to reach a representative.

Sincerely,

Cidalia C.
e-Solutions Specialist
KitchenAid Customer eXperience Center
http://www.KitchenAid.com

Dated 4/20:

Dear Mrs. A*&^%$#@:

Thank you for your reply. The dishwasher is usually pushed into the cabinetry but not always pushed all the way back, including the door. The depth of the door can be left pulled forward out of the cabinetry. At any rate, if you choose to slide the unit in all the way, the side vent on the door should not open for six hours after the clean light is lit. At that time, there should be hardly any steam if any that comes out of the vent. However, if you open the door within that six hour period, that side vent will open at the time the door is opened. This will allow the steam to escape at that time. Should you wish to purchase a moisture barrier kit to install on your side cabinetry, you may do so. The part number for that kit is 4396277. You can call us directly at 1-800-442-9991 to order the kit.

You are a valued KitchenAid customer and we apologize for any inconvenience this concern may have caused.

We invite you to contact KitchenAid again either by calling (800) 334-6889 between 8:00am to 8:00pm EST weekdays or by emailing whenever the need arises. When calling please press the available option or stay on the line to reach a representative.

Sincerely,

Cidalia C.
e-Solutions Specialist
KitchenAid Customer eXperience Center

I have the KUDE60 newly installed about 2 months ago. I guess it is not fully integrated as the door/vent is very slightly outside the adjoining cabinets. I use Pro Dry and have never seen any moisture or condensation on the cabinet, but when I use it today I am going to check to see if any steam at all is coming out of the vent. I don't think so because there is no sign of any problem on the cabinets. I seriously looked at the Bosch, but didn't like the way it loaded or the smaller interior size compared to the KA 60. For me I know I made the right decision. I love the 60 (as I have posted here many times)!

So, this is still driving me crazy. I looked at the Bosch's yesterday and can't believe how much smaller they appear. I really love the KUDE60...except for the vent issue. Am I really the only one who is having this problem? I cannot find anywhere any complaints of this nature. Could it be just MY machine??? I even did a test last night...I put a piece of paper in between the cabinet right beside the dishwasher and the door of the dishwasher. I wanted to see if the paper got wet after the ProWash and ProDry cycle. Sure enough, here are the results. Along with this was dripping moisture from the bottom of the drawer and underneath the counter top.

I'm bringing some dishes with me to the appliance store today to make sure they fit in the Bosch and will probably get it, reluctantly. Someone talk me off the ledge please...LOL

Smaller interior yes. But the bottom rack will hold about 8-10 more plates than the KitchenAid. At least on the 800 series plus (SHX58E15UC). Water softener is really the way to go also.

Why would you want to get talked out of it? I am sure you will be happy with the Bosch. They seem to rank well in most consumer publications, appliance techs tend to give them high marks, and I have had good experience with mine so far, as well as good feedback from my clients when I was in the General Contracting and Interior Design business. (Although if you want the best Miele is really the correct choice)

A little off topic here, but are those counters soapstone? From where I am sitting, it looks like Minas Duro Soapstone, which is a fine stone.

I did wind up getting a Bosch. The Miele was out of my price range if I wanted something with concealed controls. My apprehension lies in that I really really do like the KUDE60...and if it weren't for the vent issue, I wouldn't be here. But I cannot have the moisture on my cabinets. I just cant believe there aren't more complaints out there. The appliance store said it was probably because it is still a very new unit.

tyguy: Yes, it is soapstone. It is Belvedere from M. Tex in Hackensack. Wonderful stone, and wonderful people to deal with. It hadn't been oiled in about a week, and we oiled last night to bring out the dark richness of it...its just so silky...very happy with it.

Did you get the 3-rack unit?

ApplianceSalesVet: I got the one you recommended, the SHX58E15UC. It was one of the models that they sold and was in close price range to the Kitchenaid, and the one with the third rack. I brought my dishes to the store and they fit, so that was good. I did notice that the tines on the racks are closer together, and I have fiestaware so I was concerned. By removing the silverware basket from the lower rack, I should be fine as far as space.

I have run the Kitchenaid twice since and it still is venting moisture, dripping wet. For a while it was driving me nuts that I couldn't find anyone else with the same issue, but I suppose they have not set their units flush with their cabinetry, which is the look I was going for and would think a totally integrated unit would do without causing damage. The appliance store said that since the unit is relatively new, they may not be out there yet.

Where can I get the salt? And do I need it?

I feel better it's being switched, and am excited to get the new one. It comes on Tuesday...I'll update on how I like it.

I have the Miele Diamante G2143SC. During the final rinse cycle it adds the rinse aid, and then uses condensation drying. It does not vent out, but instead there is a small fan on the bottom-right than pulls cool air into a cavity that is layered around the metal tub of the dishwasher. This causes the hot water to condense on the metal, pulling it away from the dishes. When it's done, everything is bone-dry expect for tupperware type items with a few drops of water, and there will be a little water sitting on the tops of any cups/mugs that might be curved-in on the bottom. This is really no big deal, as my past dishwasher did the same thing, and it only takes a minute to dry the water off those few items. But all the dishes, pots/pans, glasses, and silverware are dry.

As someone else mentioned, the top of the line Miele La Perla does open the door, but it does this after the condensation drying mode. This helps any left-over moisture vent to help those tupperware type of items dry. But that dishwasher is about $2400-2600, so it would be more than you'd want to spend as a replacement.

By the way, I've heard that next month the new Miele G5000 series will be out. You might want to ask your dealer about them. I'm not sure what their price will be, or if the current models will be discounted any when the new ones come out.

You can buy dishwasher salt on-line, or have your dealer order it from Bosch. The model number is SGZ9091UC. It's a bag of Finish dishwasher salt. We sell it for $20.

I recommend using it because it will keep the magnesium and calcium deposits from building up and causing glasses to become foggy or creating a white film on black plastic items. None of this really was a problem until phosphates were removed from detergents last summer.

A test strip will come with the unit and you'll want to test your water to determine the hardness. The owner's manual will explain how to change the water hardness level (this determines how much salt is being used during each cycle).

By the way, the front section of tines on the lower rack are spaced a little further apart, allowing for thicker plates or bowls.

Another option is to use the silverware basket in the bottom rack, remove the 3rd upper rack, and adjust the 2nd (glass) rack to it's lowest position. This allows you to wash up to 12" plates in the 2nd rack along with your cups. I do this when I have pots and pans taking up space in the lower rack.

Hope you like your Bosch. Keep us posted. Love your soapstone too....nice choice

five - Thanks for this post. I had pretty much decided on buying a KA dishwasher and I would have never thought to check for where the vents were located. It's great that your appliance salesperson is working with you. I hope you find something that you like as much.

antss - I'm curious, I looked up the Meiles and, at least on the AJ Madison site, they are all listed as 24' width. Am I missing something?

Here is a link that might be useful: Meile widths

@ayerg73....They round them off, kinda like a 2x4 piece of lumber is not really 2x4. I think they are actually 23 9/16" wide, they just round them off. I think the marketing department would not be keen on a 23 9/16" description.

5'0: I am curious what is meant by this part of the response you got from KA:

"At any rate, if you choose to slide the unit in all the way, the side vent on the door should not open for six hours after the clean light is lit. At that time, there should be hardly any steam if any that comes out of the vent. However, if you open the door within that six hour period, that side vent will open at the time the door is opened. This will allow the steam to escape at that time."

This sounds to me like the vent is supposed to be closed until either
1. you open the door after the wash cycle is completed or
2. 6 hours after the wash cycle is complete.

Is there some way that your vent is not closing properly?

It was checked and the service people said it was operating the way it was supposed to, and that the vent is an issue. I don't believe the CS answers in the least, because there is nothing in any of the literature to support this. Also, you can get a different response each time you ask the question to Kitchenaid.

I only ran washes at night, probably after 9pm. The cabinets were wet when I would check in the morning. Only 1 time did I run the dishwasher during the day, for the test that I did with the piece of paper.

I was all set to order the KA KUDE40FXPA and emailed the appliance store today to check on the location of the vent and it is on the left hand side so I told him about these problems which he was not aware of. Anyway, he recommended now the Bosch SHV65PO3UC which will accept a custom panel.
Does anyone know of a comparable Miele model that's close in price to the Bosch?

@mskitchen....you will not find a Miele in the price range of that Bosch. That is a midline Bosch, which is not a bad thing. The low lines Bosch's are not overly great machines. The high end products are nice, but I can not see why anyone would buy it over a Miele. The midline gives you best bang for your buck. I have that exact unit, with custom panel. It fits flush with inset framed cabinets and no moisture issues. Its a nice DW and you can find a deal on them(unlike Miele).

I have never added a pic before, so hopefully this works.

(poor image quality)

Oh, and I am a former Miele owner too. I did not switch to this Bosch cause the Miele was in aynyway bad. I just got it at about half the price of a Miele, so thought I would give it a try. So far it has been great.

tyguy, thanks for your input. Bosch it is, the appliance store is about 45 minutes away from us so I'm just going to add it on to the kitchen order, sight unseen.

If you're going with the Bosch, may I suggest the SHX58E15UC (stainless steel) or the SHV58E13UC (panel ready).

These units are part of the 800 Series Plus series, built on Bosch's newest engineering platform (made in Germany) while the rest of the Bosch units are built in New Bern, NC on a 10-year old platform. Bosch will be re-vamping the rest of the models to the newer platform later this year.

Key additions:

1. Variable spray pressure. Benefit: lower pressure on the upper rack so plastics don't "fly" away as easily and gentler wash on glassware.

2. 3rd rack at top for silverware and cutlery. Allows you to remove lower silverware basket freeing up 6 plate positions in the bottom rack.

3. Built-in water softener - if you don't have a water softener in the house this is a great feature. Cuts down the magnesium and calcium deposits so glasses are crystal clear and black plastic utensils don't build up a white film (which happens more frequently now since phosphates have been removed from detergents)

4. Slightly deeper upper rack - will fit around 2-4 more glasses

5. ActiveTab - allows preformed detergent tablets and pouches to dissolve easier as they will fall into the ActiveTab tray in the upper rack instead of falling to the bottom.

6. Lower rack has 6 more plate positions than the other Bosch models (40 in all)

7. Usually has a $100 mail-in rebate available through an independent dealer.

8. Upper rack will fit 12" plates if the cutlery rack is removed.

I wound up getting the Bosch SHX58E15UC and I'm quite happy with it. I've run 2 loads and have had absolutely no issues. It cleans wonderfully, it is quiet, and even though it is technically smaller than the KUDE60 I had, I have had no issues fitting anything.

One thing I recommend is reading the manual thoroughly. I apparently do not need to add salt, as my water isn't hard enough (according to the test strip supplied with the unit). Also, most of the variables (water softener, jet dry, intensive drying) are factory set to "OFF". One important one is "INTENSIVE DRYING". This helps with drying, and I had turned it on last night for the second load and it definitely helped. Here are the instructions if anyone needs them:

Intensive drying
The final rinse uses a higher temperature which improves the drying result.
The running time may increase slightly. (Caution if utensils are delicate!)
? Open the door. (for hidden controls only). Turn unit on using the ON/OFF button.
Hold down "A" button and press START the digital display shows "H:00".
? Release both buttons.
? Press button "A" until the display indicates "d:00"
To change the setting,
? Press button "C" (see page 4) to turn intensive drying ON = d:01 or OFF = d:00
? Press START button. The set value is saved.
? Close the door (for hidden controls only).

ApplianceSalesVet and fivefoot: I'll check that one out against the first one, pricing is an issue though. Major problem has surfaced -my KD is no longer at the kitchen design company, really don't know what happened there but I'm now working with the 2 owners and some issues surfaced when I sat down with them the other day and they informed me that this and that just wouldn't work. To say the least, I was extremely upset so they are working to resolve these problems, etc so most likely the cost of the kitchen will now increase. Actually we are in the initial stages of building so it's much more than the kitchen, 4 bathrooms and a laundry/mudroom as well but they didn't seem to think anything was incorrect about those except maybe vanity size in the powder room. So I've had to cancel the liner insert I chose for the custom hood since it "wouldn't fit" and then I read about this problem with the dishwasher so that has been cancelled as well. We're meeting with them tomorrow if the redesigned kitchen and pricing is finalized as I need a new kitchen layout for our builder asap.

I also meant to mention that the Bosch that I got qualified for a $100 rebate.

Good luck mskitchen...

Thanks so much, fivefoot.

73 - yes they are 23 5/8" wide or 60cm. It is simply a marketing case like ty says. look at the ACTUAL DW specs, for any model really.

mskitchen - I believe that Bosch is $900-$1000. Maybe less on sale - which never happens with Miele. You might get a closeout, or return 10% off, but that's about it. Miele's entry level unit is $1000-$1200 so it's close in price but strictly speaking - it's more expensive. I happen to think the Miele a better unit and has a better co. standing behind it, but $200-$400 isn't hay.

Here is a link that might be useful: AJ Mad links to specs

Hate to bump an old thread, but I'm about to purchase a KUDE70FX. Has anybody else ran into this side venting issue? I'm sure many forum members have purchased a KUDE60FX or the 70FX.

You may get more readers (and responses) if you start a new thread with this question.

I have the previous model, KUDE70FV. Mine vents out the top of the door, to the left of the control panel. My control panel is less extensive (shorter) than the one in fivefootzero's door photo, above. Current KUDExxFX models may vent out the side because of that change.

fivefootzero, I have had my kitchenaid kude60fxss dishwasher for 6 years and now, after your post, i finally figured out why my cabinet drawers were sagging! i had always thought it was from the weight of my dishes, but now i realize it is from the constant steaming it was getting from the dw. oh well..will learn for next time and make sure i check the vents on the dishwasher. thanks for posting!!

Bosch and Miele both seem like quality devices. I'm just starting to compare myself the different models and costs.

What about Asko? Is that brand on par with Bosch and Miele for features and reliability?

I also want a Bosch SHX58E15UC but can't find it in Southern California. Perhaps it's been discontinued. A local dealer told me SHX7ER55UC is the closest to it that they have in stock. I know Bosch is currently changing over to 2012 models; as a result a lot of 2011 models are out of stock and 2012 models are not in yet. But I can't find any info on 2012 models either. It's a mess. Looks like I'll be without a dishwasher for a while.

5-0: I have a KUDE with vents out the top left side of the door, like someone else mentioned. It definitely makes the top of my cabinets wet. Not good. KA denies any interest in the problem but will graciously sell you an aluminum deflector for $6 or so ... Not sure whether this works, is worth it, etc. I thought it was funny that they would sell this thing for thousands of dollars and not supply a retrofit kit to cover up their boo-boo.

Just wanted to mention that I'm pretty sure there have been several threads complaining of this which you mention. Your proactive fix will stand you well in time!

Sorry to hear about the KA issues. I was concerned as well when I got a KUDE70FVSS model in February 2010. The vent is located on the left side of the top edge of the door, next to the controls. It is not on the side of the door. KA's are deep and most will not fit flush under normal depth cabinets I hear. We have about a 1 1/4 inch granite countertop overhang which happens to be about the thickness of the door. So in our case we pushed the DW back until the door was lined up with the cabinet fronts but the door is completely underneath the granite countertop. It actually looks pretty good. (Our old WP was flush mounted with cabinet matching panels installed) We put the moisture strip supplied by KA on the bottom of the granite, for no good reason but figured why not. There is a small strip of cabinet under the granite that forms the top of the cabinet opening for the DW that is, of course, wood. If I put the moisture strip on it, it showed since the strip is a shiny material, so I left it off. I kept an eye on it for months to see what happened and I have never seen any moisture or noticed any steam coming from the vents at all, regardless of the time of day we run the DW. The wood under the granite and all around the DW looks fine and has never shown any sign of getting wet. Not sure what system they are using in this model but apparently it does not suffer from the same problems as the side vent models.

Called Bosch today and was told SHX58E15UC was indeed discontinued and SHX7ER55UC is its closest replacement which is also made in Germany. The Bosch rep refused to acknowledge any recent reliability issues; instead it was suggested that the Bosch dishwasher reliability went up, although no real numbers were offered. Nobody knows whether the reliability issues have been addressed for the 2012 models. Looks like getting a good extended protection plan would be the way to go with 2012 Bosch models, if its extra cost is within the budget.

fivefootzero: after you have lived with your bosch what are your thoughts on it....

For others if you bought the bosch DW which model did you get and was it german made or US?