I'm curious - was the ebay seller you bought it from an authorized dealer and should you have had a warranty on it? If so, then Miele should have been required to honor it. If not, then unfortunately buyer beware. That's the big question in my mind.

It was an authorized dealer in New York. The machine wasn't stolen and had been sold to a legitimate dealer on Long Island. I brought this up to Miele on the phone and they said tough. If I bought it on ebay then no warranty.

"Corporations who hold all of the cards will inevitably use their power to squeeze consumers and competition. That is precisely what Miele is up to."

I completely disagree with you here. All companies want to dominate their market and maximize profits- it's the nature of capitalism. No one forced you to to get a Miele espresso system. You could have gotten a Gaggenau, Bosch, Thermador, Kuppersbusch, Dacor, Aristron, Fagor, or Electrolux.

Miele and other high line brands have a right to decide how their products are sold and by whom, and where. They want to protect their brand and like many co.'s feel a bricks and mortar and human interaction is best for their brand. You can choose to buy into the brand or not. Ebay tends to tarnish high line products.

Don't need lawyers if you want legal remedy - small claims court is available to you, and almost all state's $ limits will cover the cost of the Miele system.

They have the right to limit parts sales also.

If you bought it from a "legimate" dealer, why couldn't they provide you with a "legimate" reciept from their store instead of a Paypal Statement? Seems to me like the dealer should have help you to avoid this situation.

I'm with Mojavean on this! by the way, Scott, is that "Pronounced" "Moe Hahv Vee In", I usta call ya MoJa Vean (like bean) (LOL)
I could tell , when we met at Knotts Berry farm, that your machine was "On the Fritz Again" Your eyes were "Kinda Glazed Over" (LOL)!
Anyway, I just don't understand these "Post" about defending lousy sevice and or poor customer care--not not even a tiny bit!!
I ran a sales/service business for 16 years and the Customer was "King"--Period---Always right!!! Period end of discussion---You get my drift?
Why do I feel that way, First , before starting my own business I worked as a Field Service Engineer for a fairly large company. My first Objective was to make that company's Salesmen always welcomed in whatever laboratory I happened to be in that day. And it worked,One year, when the Service budget was "Tight", Sales, (even though a different Department) Kicked some xtra money in the Kittie for my raise. I also sold a ton of Service Contracts due to the way I treated customers and their trust in me.
So I just transferred this way of doing business to my own business, and never have I regretted it.
I still get letters from customers, even thou I've been retired saying "You are the best that ever was" this means more to me than "Stacks of Dollar Bills tied Neatly in a Pile"
I suspect in defense of Miele, more that likely one of you will bring up "Cost" of doing business in a caring and customer friendly manner.
What Mojavean needed was "Peanuts" yesss Peanuts!!!! compaired to
some of my efforts to "Practice what I just Preached"
Example---My first sale to Caterpillar Tractor--Customer calls back a couple days later and says "Come get this piece of *hit outta here!!! I was on the Next Plane to Utah (from Calif). I found the problem, somebody had sabotaged his lab--added water to the oil samples. I took care of the problem (removed the sludge from the machine) showed him how to check for that kind of problem(Should it ever occur again--it didn't). I thanked him for buying our Product, bid him a "Fond Adieu" and went to chase an airplane back to Calif. So I paid for the airfare, rental car, meals, Motel etc etc---and not once did I mention that to this customer.
Pretty Dumb, Hunnnnhh??? Nope, I ended up selling many of my machines to Caterpillar, all thoughout the US and Canada along with Selling Service Contract, Supplies Parts etc---Yea Pretty Dumb!!!!
The dumb ones are companies Like Miele. A small request made by Scott and how did they treat it---Well you saw!!!!
So Knock off this BS about it's a companies right to offer that kind of customer care and treatment.
We should demand better and I know I certainly do---Yea I'm a real Joy for someone that doesn't know what customer service is.
So Defend away, keep a towel handy, cause you're "Spitting in the wind"!!!!!

Gary

Dodge- you were able to take care of the customer because they paid for the product/service at full price from you, not a cut rate sale on an auction / garage sale board.

Sure Miele could have easily emailed you the parts schematic, and the service manual. Then you would have told everyone and the dealer in NYC and you would have been rewarded for bending the rules. Why didn't you buy from a store down the street in Cali? Because you saved a few dollars on eBay - nothing wrong with that, but how is Miele or anyone else that invests time and money in a dealer and service network going to justify or keep those people happy/ in business if they just allow some guy in his basement with a $100 a month DSL line, a $500 web site and zero inventory of product or parts or knowledge to sell you the same thing for $1 over cost?

These types of deals are set up with the price is the price is the price to eliminate the games people complain about at the car dealer:

Well the price is X if you want it today , but yesterday it was X - $1500 because there was a special "our product is crap so we have to entice you to buy it" rebate. If you eMail Clive, the price is X - 500 because his commission structure is lower. and let's not forget about the qtrly. holdback in which bossman gets paid for every unit moved.

Now , how much was that widget?

If Miele made an exception the their system starts to break down. They simple penalize people who try and circumvent the "rules". We probably wouldn't be having this conversation if you bought it from a local dealer.

N.B., sounds like the unit was flawed in design or manufacturing and that's poor no matter how you slice it up.

Back when that unit's granddad appeared the connections for the steam lines weren't held as well as they should have been. We replace several unit's connectors no charge with free parts from Miele for clients well after the warranty had lapsed. It all depends on the circumstances, people play favorites, might not be fair but that's how it is. Politics, your bank, your favorite restaurant, they all have different levels of service in spite of policies that might be in place to level the field.

Wolf Sub Zero is making special discounts right now---There have been several post here about it. What Has Miele done??? Raised prices and will again when their new stuff comes out. Many People are looking for a way to import Miele products from Europe---They are a lot less expensive there, and many are even more advanced that what they offer us here (For Example the new Drying System on some of the DW's)
I Think Miele Looks upon us Yanks as a bunch of dumb Bozo's. They thing they can charge a lot more for the same thing or even Things with Less Features than that which is offered In Europe.
They did well in the "Political Game" Fair Trade was outlawed but not MSRP--Why's that-----We have the Best Politicians Money can buy----"Oh Yea MSRP is ok, it's spelled differently than "Fair Trade"
I think this Thread, along with the Threads about their problems with Dishwashers and Ovens (Yea I can push a couple buttons and get my Elux Oven "Snot On"-- I didnt havta , It already was!---Compare this to the "Opportunities with the Miele Oven"
I Think the "Miele Mystique" is about over.
Smart People here, and a lotta smart ppl to help them here.
They will check to see what is / what's not worth the price and also what they can expect about the support of their purchases as Well!!!
Next Time I see a Post about "How Great Miele Service is"
Welllllll----, Fair Warning I'm Gonna , I'm Gonnna ooops Scuze Me, I'm Feeling Ill!

Gary

PS I should add that I do agree with you about Internet Sales. Miele did however get their money by selling the product to that dealer.
I buy from companies that give me good service (Pacific Sales) in the case of my Kitchens and bathrooms.
I don't mind paying a little more if I feel I'm treated like a Human Being--Both before---BUT MORE Importantly AFTER THE SALE.

Gary

Caveat Emptor. It's been the rule for some time now.

The courts have upheld the right of a business to set the price and sell its products any way it wants as long as it doesn't lie about it. Hence they can set minimum prices whenever they want. And they can drop a dealer whenever that dealer does not honor that price.

As stated, Miele is not the only vendor that sets minimum prices, nor uses a prefered dealer network for both sales and service. I've dealt with the same thing with other items I own (a Jura Capresso) and it was stated up front that no manufacturer warrantee was available or implied if I bought the item from Ebay.

"The machine wasn't stolen and had been sold to a legitimate dealer on Long Island."

This is odd. Do mean that the dealer you bought it from had bought it from another dealer? Hearing that the dealer has gone out of business leads me to believe he was not a legitimate Miele vendor, or was dropped by them after this incident.

I'm not defending Miele per se, but my original post still stands - if it was an authorized dealer then you should have gotten a warranty, period. Did you check about that with the dealer or Miele before the purchase?

I once bought a Movado watch on the web from an unauthorized dealer who stated that upfront and provided their own warranty on the watch that was double the Movado warranty. They purchased overstocks from other Movado dealers and discounted them but they were upfront about the whole thing.

I said:
"Corporations who hold all of the cards will inevitably use their power to squeeze consumers and competition. That is precisely what Miele is up to."

Then Antss said:
"I completely disagree with you here."

And then went on to explain that he completely agreed with me, actually:
"All companies want to dominate their market and maximize profits- it's the nature of capitalism."

Which is what I said. So, our differences are essentially sexual in nature. I do not think it a good thing to get screwed up the poopster but Antss likes it.

This is the perfect description of the coming division of the American body politic that we are all going to have to hash out somehow. There is a sizeable portion of our populace, represented in this instance by Antss, who think that it is best that corporations be allowed to do anything they want to anyone they want in any way they want so long as they do not use force.

Diametrically opposed to this notion is me, who asserts that letting the free market fix things is like letting the free market inspect offshore wells and integrate schools and end slavery.

Every market is subject to some regulation. My assertion is that the regulation should always be rational, in the public interest vice the narrow interest of the profiteer, and should be designed to bring about the advancement and well being of all, not just the rich mofos who Antss has been tricked into supporting by listening to too much Neal Boortz.

mojavean - if you were entitled to a legitimate warranty, you can file a complaint with your state attorney general's office - they usually have a division that handles these type of complaints - you don't need to file a lawsuit.

By the way, your offensive comments about antss are really uncalled for. While I agree that corporations need some regulation and oversight and I intensely dislike price fixing and UMRP, IF you chose to buy a discounted item that came without a warranty, you can't expect the manufacturer to give you a warranty. As someone else said, CAVEAT EMPTOR. By the way, there are those who would argue that those who buy Miele and other high end brands are the rich mofos that you refer to!

Gary. It's MO-HAH-VEE-EN. As in, somebody from the Mojave Desert.

Hey, next time I am down in Orange County, we have to go get some Pho and Goi Cuon from Little Saigon. I am getting hooked on Vietnamese noodles like you read about.

Weissman, I have no idea whether I am entitled to any warranty at all. Miele claims I am not. I am not going to go chasing through the legal weeds finding out whether this is true or not. What I am doing is telling people how Miele treated me, honestly.

As far as Antss is concerned, he is convinced that Miele should be able to do anything they want in the marketplace. My analogy (pun most definitely intended) was apt. Laissez Faireists in government are responsible for the widespread prevalence of corporate rape that is currently drenching the gulf coast with oil, sucking billions out of our defense budget every month, getting people into private prisons quicker and easier and for longer periods of time, and screwing us over at every turn. Antss thinks this is a good idea. I do not. If Antss disagrees with ANY of my observations, or thinks I am being unfair to him, I am sure he will point out how this is so.

We don't live in a capitalist society at all. We live in a plutocracy. Our society is built upon simple political power. The richer you are and the more you participate in the donor class activity of buying legislators, the more you have to say about the wording, crafting, implementation, enforcement, and possibly, the complete ignoring, of the law.

The regulations that nettle the poor and make it hard for them to get ahead are regularly and happily ignored by the wealthy and powerful. Miele told me that I had no warranty whatsoever because I bought my brand new machine on ebay. If you take a look on the Miele website, there is nowhere on there where they say this. They are not warning people off buying from ebay. They get the same money from selling a machine on ebay that they get when you write a check to some snooty dickweed in the suburbs of Atlanta. They still get the money. Miele wants it both ways. They want any and every increase in volume they can get, while sneaking in the screwjobs after the sale is done.

I wrote my follow-on SPECIFICALLY to warn people NOT to expect fair treatment from Miele. Expect to be screwed by them. That is what you are going to get if you DARE venture outside their idealized little marketing scam.

I feel like I have to repeat what I said earlier. Mojavean, you bought a Miele machine on eBay that had no "provenance". You don't know whether it was a return, a quality control reject, a stolen item, a demo model, or fell off a truck. Then you say it's Miele's fault. For what? They have NO IDEA where you got this machine from. The serial number shows where it originated, but not what it's done since then. Can I go to a flea market, find a Miele machine on someone's table among a bunch of electronics and used appliances, and then call Miele asking them to make good on the warranty? How is your ebay purchase any different?

Look, you bought an item that was discounted below market price. The laws of economics are that if Miele couldn't sell the machine at the price they set, they'd lower the price. But the machine DOES sell at the higher price you were unwilling to pay. Why do you think your ebay seller had this item at below-market price? Could it be that it was used/stolen/defective? So you paid less than market, and now you're saying Miele is at fault for not warrantying an item that could have had all kinds of history as I've already mentioned.

You've said the dealer was authorized, but then went out of business, then the dealer sold to another dealer... huh? If I was the person from Miele customer service on the phone with you, hearing that story, I cannot imagine how I would then say, "sure, we'll make good on the warranty". C'mon Mojavean, if it were your company, and your product, and someone called you with that kind of story, would YOU provide free repair? Really?

Also, this story would be no different whether you had bought a Kitchenaid, LG, Samsung or Wolf appliance on eBay. You probably wouldn't even have gotten the information from those companies that Miele gave you. Miele has excellent customer service for people who buy their products from their authorized dealers.

"Miele has excellent customer service for people who buy their products from their authorized dealers."

shannonplus2
You either "Selectively read" or you're in that "Certain part of Canada" that espouces the virtues of Miele Service.
You did not see the long post about Oven Problems or the one about a Man eating dishwasher er mean "Plate finish & Glass finish Eating DW"?
Strange You mention "Capitalism" trying to Defend Miele.
There is Nothing in the way they do business that follows Capitalism's Ideals. They completely ignor the law of Supply & Demand.--- (You Make a better product, The Demand goes up for it (Assuming Supply stays about the same), Then Price goes up). Compare this to "The Miele Mode of Operation."
Set the Price first (No relation to Demand or Supply). Take advantage of stupid decisions made by idiots (Lawyers & Judges) MSRP---Then use Tactics as Mojavean described to "Protect your Market"
If Miele is that great, remove MSRP, (still allowing Miele to choose their dealers)((I Do see Antss point about internet sales)) and lets see how they do!!!
Miele, (Not the only company that does), is NOT Subscribing to Capitalism but are using the "Plutocracy",
that Mojavean described.

Gary

Yeah but one still has a choice NOT TO PURCHASE Miele. If their prices are too high and the quality goes down, consumers have many other choices in the market. That's why boards like this are so useful. When I was growing up, Maytag washers and dryers were the ones to buy - pricey but ultra-reliable - look at them now!

I agree with you Here, Weissman, not only about the choice not to purchase and the "Usefullness of the Boards, like this.
Unfortunately, you are probably correct about Maytag Washers and dryers now.
We have a very old Maytag Washer, still works great and an old Hotpoint Dryer that sometimes does not Light.
Wife wants to replace them before She retires (Next Year) but right now, I'm not all that anxious to do that, and right now, I don't have a "Clue" what to buy----so I better start doing my "Homework"?

Gary

Mojavean, you're my hero. I LOVE that you took the machine apart. Fortune favours the bold and all that and good for you that the fix was a simple bad connection.
Yeah, Miele's service AND their customer interface department is appalling.

Antss is predictably going to bow and scrape to Miele's antics - regardless what they are. Still I love the bloke so must put up at least some token resistance to efforts to tar and feather him.

Shannon, Weissman, (and sadly, even antss!) what are you people smoking?! I about fell over backwards at the idea that hot goods and things that habitually fall off the backs of trucks are what wind up on ebay! What piffle! Legitimate vendors pawn stock that they haven't been able to move on ebay, craigslist as well as in-store/warehouse liquidation sales all the time. Ebay-trawling guidelines insist that you do your due diligence on the seller - and there are plenty of perfectly legitimate vendors. I see little reason to assume that Mojavean's seller was a vagrant.

Look, retailers purchase stuff from Miele (or Wolf, Gagg whatever) and then proceed to sell them to the customer. UMRP says that Miele fixes both the price that they sell product to the retailer as well as the price at which retailer sells to their customer. IOW, Miele determines the retailers' profit. As a consequence, the retailers really don't warehouse Miele products. I.e. they make the purchase from Miele when you make the purchase from them and I think the delivery (at least here in the NE) comes directly from the Miele warehouse. However, for whatever reason - optimism perhaps? - sometimes a vendor has some products in their stock. And sometimes they can't move the item. And then the retailer does what retailers do - lower the price to the point that they can move it! If Miele were willing to buy the item back from the retailer they would not bother to sell through these channels that seems to offend your delicate sensibilities. But they don't. So they do.

And Antss suggestion that some enterprising businessman is wanting to besmirch Miele's reputation by selling a "high-line" product at outlets is just more "sputtering indignation" as mojavean put it so well. "Back home", Miele units are sold at what are basically local Ace hardware shops - nothing could be humbler than those.
And Weissman, whence did you find your propensity to deem worthiness by the size of the purchase price? Buy at mandated prices or you're not worthy of a miele? Dude, people report here about getting lucky with an in-stock, end-year model price-break all the time! What's the difference? Do you have an aneurysm everytime one of these chaps feels they got lucky? And all because that was one more Wolf or Miele item that someone didn't pay an annointed price for?! 'Tis called an open market my friend. And it is fully one half of the capitalism that many here claim to espouse but few people seem to actually understand.

To round it all back - Mojavean, good on you - glad you got the machine working. Here's my key reason for writing - how's the coffee it makes? I don't drink coffee (disgusting stuff. Sorry!) But I really wanted my husband who lives for the vile concoction to get one and even dragged him to the Miele showroom to see, feel and taste. He has a not-automatic-at-all grind-your-own-beans machine which is some Italian or Austrian affair (which he checked out when we were in Vienna a few years ago) and which makes the most fearful mess what with the grounds and all - that is my objection to the unitS (please note plural as separate grinder and espresso-maker). So he declared the Miele coffee "good but not quite up to par" when he gets his beastly machine's formulations right. I'd love to be able to tell him that he's all wet - so wondering what you thought of the actual product this unit makes.

mindstorm - you totally misread what I stated and made false assumptions about my views. I deplore price fixing and UMRP but that is currently the law of the land and we are forced to play by those rules. I never said that mojaveen's item was a "hot" item - I actually suspect that it was a gray market overstock - and you're right - people do get "bargains" by buying such discounted items and I don't begrudge them that (as I said above I did it myself with a Movado watch) but when you do that, you often forfeit the manufacturer's warranty. The onus is on you to do your due diligence. While I can't say I'm a fan of Miele - both their pricing strategy or recent reports of their customer service - I took objection to Mojaveen railing on them after he knowingly or unknowingly bought a gray market item and expected full service from them.

mindstorm - as a coffee afficianado, I can tell you that your husband is absolutely correct that an automatic machine will never produce as fine a brew as a manual one - you'll just have to deal with the mess :-)

Not sure if the Miele would be appropriate for all coffee aficionados. While you can flexibly tailor the parameters of the coffee coming out of the machine (specifically, amount of coffee, fineness of grind, amount of water, temp of water, pre-brewing cycle, as well as selection of beans, of course) it is very doubtful somebody who insists that the only way to get a good shot of espresso is the hard way could ever be happy with the Miele. It is simply too easy. When all you have to do is walk up, shove your cup under the spout and push a button, some coffee snobs experience a profound revulsion in their taste buds that utterly prevents enjoyment of the coffee.

If your husband suffers from that I don't think the Miele will ever suit no matter what quality of brew actually comes out of it. I am not afflicted with that malady, personally; the coffee tastes great to me.

Miele knew the exact "provenance" of their machine. It was not stolen from them. They sold it to an authorized dealer. That dealer, under a pseudonym, sold it to me on eBay. It was brand new, had the warranty inside the machine and arrived at my door in the factory packing surrounded by a protective cardboard and plastic outer box. It wasn't a second or anything else. The dealer who sold it to me is still in business on Long Island as far as I know. He just went out of business on eBay.

I think one issue that might bother people who love fresh coffee is that a pound of coffee beans left at room temperature (I'm assuming Miele's coffee bean holder isn't refrigerated) would gradually become stale over a few weeks. I keep my coffee beans in the freezer, before grinding them.

It is public knowledge that most companies do not warranty merchandise bought off ebay. The reliablity of the machine you purchased was a chance YOU were willing to take to get a low price. It's unfortunate that you feel the need to provide negative feedback for a company that is standing by their policy. If you want service then you need to pay for it! Take responsiblity for your decision and quit whining!

chac_mool - actually freezing or refrigerating coffee beans is not good for them - the best way to store beans is to keep them at room temperature in an airtight container for a short period of time.

"We don't live in a capitalist society at all. We live in a plutocracy. Our society is built upon simple political power. The richer you are and the more you participate in the donor class activity of buying legislators, the more you have to say about the wording, crafting, implementation, enforcement, and possibly, the complete ignoring, of the law. "

This couldn't be farther from correct. If it were true we would not have Obama care today because the vast majority of the people footing the bill (the rich) for it would/do not want to pay for other people's inability to get coverage/care. So, obviously your argument is flawed

Moja- you obviously want to engage in a semantics exercise. I suppose I should have clarified but thought the point was obvious that some companies want to dominate through excellence. GE Aircraft, Rolls Royce, Hermes, Cray, Gulfstream. They all would like to drive their competitors off a cliff - but with quality and service. This does not mean the customer is always right. I might like to have a high quality handmade french pocketbook but would only like to pay 500 bucks. Not going to happen, but it should under Dodge's "customer's always right" mantra. I'd like another built in espresso machine and think they should be $800.

"If Miele is that great, remove MSRP"
If that happened then there would only be a race to the bottom because there would always be some idiot that doesn't understand cost structure/ overhead and would keep lowering prices till he went under . Now the market would be conditioned to expect lower prices and in order to compete the mother co. would have to lower quality while they figured a way out of the spiraling market. Again they have the right to charge what they want and how they want. You have the right to buy their stuff or not. You have the right to complain about their sales practices and they have the right to ignore you - ain't America great.

"Back home", Miele units are sold at what are basically local Ace hardware shops - nothing could be humbler than those. "

Yep, but this isn't back home and they've chosen to run their business differently here.

LOOK FOLKS, YOU DON'T HAVE TO LIKE THESE PRACTICES. No one is forcing you to buy Miele, or Wolf, or Bose or Festool or Dooney & Bourke, or Apple or any other product that has a "closed" controlled distribution model. As long as they have quality inventive , desirable products that people want they are entitled to maximize there revenue on them.

Vote with your pocket book and if enough of you do then these companies will have to change. Then you can all bit$#^% again because the quality and style will have be wrung out of the products a la wal-mart. But it'll be cheap. Ex: the Maytag story that was just mentioned.

"SPECIFICALLY to warn people NOT to expect fair treatment from Miele."

This is true if you don't honor your part of the bargain by buying from a legitimate retailer in the manner specified in Miele's dealer agreement. If the agreement is NO eBay sales and you buy one on eBay then tough cookies. There is no warranty if you buy a USED item either even if it is only 1 month old. Again , you don't have to like it, but these are the rules of the game. You have the option not to play.

BTW - in retrospect was it worth it to to save a few on the unit via eBay? Would you do it over again? Was going to offer to get you any schematics and service manuals via email and PDF you want, but glad I didn't since you besmirched my honor.

Miele has decided they want to market their products in the US as 'high-end' or 'luxury' products. To that end, they have set the minimum prices to their dealers. This is not a new concept. Try buying a new Mercedes, BMW, or Volvo at the 40% lower price that you could get the same car for in Europe. It won't happen. They aren't bad companies (for this reason, anyway), they just decided that they want their cars to be 'premium' brands. They won't allow or bring over cheaper models because it would 'cheapen the brand'.

And I've already had MontBlanc, Rado and Breitling laugh in my face when I told them I bought their products on the internet and needed warranty services.

If you want to play in their sandbox, you play by their rules. Or find another sandbox.

"Miele has decided they want to market their products in the US as 'high-end' or 'luxury' products. To that end, they have set the minimum prices to their dealers. This is not a new concept. Try buying a new Mercedes, BMW, or Volvo at the 40% lower price that you could get the same car for in Europe. It won't happen"

"Yep, but this isn't back home and they've chosen to run their business differently here."

Thanks for "The Above", Weedmeister & Antss.

Very Honest, and something I had been mentioning for for well, a Heck of a Long Time!!

You may recall some of my posts about so called "High End Apliances"

I said , among other things, that only the price was higher, others "Perceived Higher value due to the higher price.

One hopes that most folks can see by the postings on this thread, that this "Higher End Appliance" at least by the company aformentioned, is nothing more than some "Marketing and Strategy Decisions" made by some quite far away from us.

Now is there anything wrong with buying that , if that happens to be "Your Bag"? NO!!!! but it's not fair to folks here that are new to appliance buying to suggest that if they buy some of these "High end Appliances" that they will work better or get better service.
Be Honest, it's just something that caught your eye or your desire for some "Exclusivity" but for the most part, these products are no better than what folks can afford that do have budget restraints.
I am a Miele DW owner, but that was due to the Siverware tray, at the time they were the only DW that had it.
Fast forward to today and more than likely I would have bought the KA, as it now has that rack, or something similar?

Gary

"I said , among other things, that only the price was higher"

yes, you said that , but you were incorrect. Some of these companies actually use higher quality raw materials and components.

An example I used was your Elux brand "tarting up their Fridgemore stuff" and doing exactly what you are now accusing these companies of. They put a nicer set of trousers on their Frigidaire Twins fridge freezer with a Electrolux badge and charge a HEFTY premium. Nothing wrong with that, but you also didn't see me start a thread about how Elux is ripping people off and how their greedy mgmt. team needs o be taken to the woodshed by the government pay czar and some government agency. Not that you did this, but I think my point is clear.

Conversely, Miele shares a manuf. facility with BSH and has a very similar fridge that they charge more than their partners do. They happen to have some features the cousins don't and Miele even sources some of their own higher quality , higher spec parts that they ship to the factory themselves, particularly the electronics. So, now who is flim flaming whom on pricing?

"but it's not fair to folks here that are new to appliance buying to suggest that if they buy some of these "High end Appliances" that they will work better or get better service. "

It sure is, because I have 20 years in this business and the brands/units I rec. have a much better chance than some of the middle of the road marks that I've come across. Is this a guarantee? Heck no, People still can get a crappy unit and crappy service BUT THE ODDS ARE BETTER YOU WON"T . Just like the odds are not so good that you'll get a great product and stellar service from the co. bringing up the rear - but it could happen.

"Be Honest, it's just something that caught your eye or your desire for some "Exclusivity" but for the most part, these products are no better than what folks can afford that do have budget restraints. "

I am , and yes they are better! BUT, are they better in proportion to their increased cost- meaning what's the value proposition? This is a lot tougher to piegonhole and everyone has their own criteria. What seems to be going on here is that some people are letting their value criteria bleed into the discussion as some sort of be all end all yard stick. Just because you (sic) don't value looks or exclusivity doesn't mean others don't. I usually tell you I like this or that because of looks or quality, or service, and I try to stick to facts and my vast experience professionally and personally as I go through a lot of appliances. You can then draw you own conclusions.

Interesting that you bring up the Miele cutlery tray. They invented it, patented it and had the whole market for 20 years while almost all their competition told customers that it was crazy, or had to use, or bla bla bla. Now that the patent is expired everyone is trying to get on board that crazy bandwagon. Now, do suppose they (miele) would have been able to come up with that if they were playing the lets make a deal so everyone can have one at 36.345% off of wholesale with free shipping and a 25lb. box of soap pricing model? What was last great idea that came outa the Magic Chef or Hotpoint R&D group? DO they even have an R&D dept???

Mojavean, you know, you're one of my favorite posters on the forum. When I see you've posted, I've come to expect something really thoughtful, and with a dose of good humor too. I remember the Direct Buy thread on this forum--you made pointed, excellent comments, and also cracked me up. But, sigh, on this one, I have to agree with Antss.

I do think this situation brings up the inviolable laws of supply and demand. The price for something is what the market will bear, what people will pay for it, whether we are talking about Miele Coffee System, housing, a car, whatever. But you bought your Miele for less than what the market price is. With that, comes risk. I've bought on eBay many times, and most of the time, the item is fine, but also I've had many purchases where the item is a little less than what it would have been had I bought it at a regular retail store--whether it be that the packaging was damaged, or a book's binding was spotted, or something had a small scratch, whatever. That's what comes with buying something for less than market value.

I just don't think you can blame Miele for this one. I know you said the item came in original packaging, etc., but nevertheless, many returned appliances, or product "seconds" come with original packaging. Have you ever bought a refurbished appliance or computer or other electronic item? They come beautifully packaged; you wouldn't know they're not new. But still, they're not. I think the crux of this is why was your Coffee System priced several hundred below market. Just like a stock or a bond, if the price is lower, the risk is higher.

At the end of the day, it sounds like you have a wonderfully made highly-engineered machine that you repaired, and will have for years to come. Give kudos to Miele for making that machine better than any other residential built-in coffee maker on the market. I have several Miele appliances. My experience with Miele customer service has been of the highest order. I just don't think it's fair or justified to blast Miele the way you have for not wanting to provide free repair for an eBay item. Also, as others have pointed out, no other manufacturer would provide free repair for an eBay item bought below market price, so why single out Miele? I remember a thread on the Kitchens Forum about KWC faucets where the discussion was that KWC says on their website specifically that eBay items are not warrantied.

It has been pointed out often on this forum that every appliance brand has complaints on this forum about poor quality, repair rates, sloppy manufacturing, stupid engineering, etc. But Miele complaints are rare. As to complaints about their customer service--sorry, but I have found them to be the best customer service of any brand of appliance, electronics, auto, fixtures, etc. etc. that I have owned.

The purpose of my post, in addition to my everlasting goal of entertaining and amusing you, the Gardenweb reader, was to point out that Miele will not stand behind any piece of gear you buy on ebay. Contrary to what one knucklehead on here asserts, I did NOT know that I would not have any warranty coverage on the unit. Yes, I imagined I might have trouble, but NO, I was not certain of it. I had looked on the Miele website for ANY mention of ebay sales and could not find anything prohibiting ebay, specifically. I still cannot find anything about ebay sales on there now.

But I do feel a bit sheepish because one thing I did NOT see was that there is a page on the site that says you are not covered by warranty unless you purchase from an authorized dealer. I missed that, but then it occurred to me that the only people Miele will sell their gear to are, you got it, authorized dealers! Nobody else has, or should have, the machines for sale. If they do, Miele is dealing from a stacked deck.

Whatever.

Caveat Emptor, my Gardenweb pals. Do not buy Miele ANYTHING on ebay unless you determine that the seller is on the Miele Authorized list AND they agree to provide you a store receipt indistinguishable from that of a retail sale with NO numbers on it that will spill the beans to Miele that you been ebayin' their wares.

Now, there should be NOTHING in the above objectionable to anyone. Even Antss, who is pretty touchy, should not have a beef with the above. Do not buy Miele on ebay unless you are willing to risk your warranty.

BTW, Antss. You ask if I would do it again. Well, here is my take on it. At the time, the cheapest I could find the plumbed in model (CVA-4066) was 3250 or thereabouts. I paid 2750, no tax, and free shipping. For 500 bucks I will put up with quite a bit of crap, which should be patently obvious to regular readers on here who see what I'll put up with on Gardenweb at no cost.

So yes, I probably would do it again. Especially since I get the satisfaction of disobeying, flaunting, mocking, and generally desecrating Miele's holy dealer arrangements and the notion that corporations can market in any way they want without governmental oversight.

In Europe, at least until they get a few more fat tories in office, it is illegal for manufacturers to use price fixing in their retail agreements. It used to be illegal here until our laissez faire-loving supreme court erased that rule. It is up to Congress to deal with whether it is okay for powerful manufacturers to choke the market and prevent competition in retail. Hint: don't hold your breath waiting for action on that one.

Oh, and as a parting thought for Antss. The "health care" bill, from the top to bottom, is a PERFECT illustration of the fact that we are a plutocracy. There should be NO private health insurance in this country any longer. It should have been completely overhauled, the insurance companies turned into non-profits or bought out as public domain entities, and a system set up that mirrors the scientifically demonstrated success of true, universal, care provided in every other industrialized nation on earth save the US. The reason we do not have that is the donor class of the United States simply own too many Congressmen.

That is plutocracy in action.

But I am sorry to have offended Antss or anyone else with my spicy opinions on the attributes of unchecked corporatism and laissez faire. I got a little hot and I should have just cooled off and made my case. Sorry Antss.

I have not read all this thread, so forgive me if i am going over old ground.

Miele has two types of authorized dealers Store and Internet. It could be your retailer is store only?.

I think the saving grace here is that mojavean is capable to fix the problem.

But it is a warning to us all buyer beware when it comes buying ANYTHING from ebay of value.

Who knew this thread was going to be a propaganda piece for Euro-style socialism (which, by the way, hasn't been working out so well for many of the European countries lately)? And here I thought it would be about whether I could get a really good cup of coffee at home. Oh, well, guess it's back to Coffee Geek.

moja - your ideas don't offend me, America was built on dissention. You did offend when you called me a poof.

"scientifically demonstrated success of true, universal, care provided in every other industrialized nation ."

Moja- this is simply not the case, it's something that people would like to be true but it's just not. Especially when you dig deeply into the economics of those systems. I know what I'm talking about when I say this also. I spent two years studying the system in the UK back in the 80's. Sure everyone has access to the the system but care is rationed in an almost un-navigable way. It's not EQUAL access either, despite what the public is told. What makes it palatable is that the drones don't directly see the money they pay for the systems and nothing comes outa pocket for the office visit or the cast for Johnny's broken arm so it appears to be "free". Those individuals that bust hump to get ahead and can process risk / reward at high levels opt to get private insurance and or pay out of pocket to jump in line and get better care for their ailments in the private sector. Many even come to the USA - and not just to the the 90210 plastic surgeons. So, at the end of the day you still have stratification and class division pretty much along the lines that you do now. The only thing that changes is that it costs the end user more money and things move at a slower pace because there is little accountability or market driven incentive.

Just like your Miele problem - take some responsibility. Vote with your wallet, and if enough people feel the same way Miele will change - OR - they will perish. The American appliance industry is littered with brands that didn't adapt and they are now gone.

Additionally , I have lived in France and Germany and have participated in their systems too. Rationing happens there too, and the systems are not very solvent their either.

It's easy to pick on big insurance, and sure, they screw people everyday. But let's be rational about the alternative. You want big government to run the show because they don't screw anyone- ever. And, they are very good managing businesses. And, their track record with large medical programs is stellar. Medicaid and Medicare are poster children for programs. An lets not forget how well they manage Social Security. You still want them to administer a business that's conservatively 5x that size and actually deals with life and death situations with management that turns over every 4 years? That borders on insanity. Yes the current system is flawed, and maybe even broken, but you wouldn't take your car to a blind repair shop that has new mechanics every other week and pays too much for parts and labor ..................would you?

I find it interesting and concerning that there are so many people that have experience (good or bad) with Miele customer service. The 14 year old appliances that came with the house I bought 11 years ago are all GE and Whirlpool. I know some of you are gagging at the thought of those ghastly things being in your kitchen! The point is, I could not tell you anything about their customer service because I have never needed a repair on any of them!
Aside from that, I would be very careful with anything bought on Ebay or CL, and really would not expect that any company would honor a warranty for items bought there. I would be highly suspicious, especially with such a price reduction, and if any company did honor their warranty, I would consider it a bonus and feel very lucky.
As far as their being no tax on your purchase, I do believe that in most states, if not all, you are still responsible for paying taxes on items bought via internet or phone when tax time comes. Wouldn't want people thinking that not paying the tax now, doesn't mean you don't pay it at all.

Kmsparty - actually most of the Appliance Forum "regulars" feel the best-equipped kitchen is a mix of high-end, mid-range and low-end brands depending upon the individual's preferences and cooking needs and of course budget. Your reverse snobbism over an imagined snobbism (of which there is no hint on this thread) is out of left field. Don't know what your finger-shaking over taxes is doing here either. This is the Appliances Forum where like-minded people enjoy discussing, and debating, various appliances and their experiences with them. So, this thread is about the Miele built-in coffee system. Whirlpool and GE don't make one; if they did, I'm certain they'd come up in this thread for discussion, comparisons, pros and cons, etc. No one would be "gagging" as you put it. Meanwhile, I am perfectly happy with my countertop coffee maker, and while I wholly disagree with Mojavean's criticism of Miele's customer service, I am quite interested to hear about Mojavean's experience making coffee on the Miele system.

While it is nice that your 14-year-old appliances do not need repair--and that is something commonly reported on this forum--it would be naive to think that if you bought GE and Whirlpool appliances today, you'd get 14 years out of them. Those two manufacturers are completely different companies than they were 14 years ago.

It is not surprising that laissez fairests accrue anecdotal condemnation of the rest of the industrialized world's successes like lint. Maggie Thatcher tried her hardest to cripple and kill the PHS during her tenure, and there is never a drought of Tory hatred for any and everything undertaken by government to ease the plight of the middle classes. Tory displeasure notwithstanding, the people of the UK would rather lose Her Majesty and all her jugheaded progeny than the PHS.

There is a difference between science and anecdote. You want anecdote, get in your car and drive up to British Columbia and ask any cocktail waitress what she does if she gets sick. She will tell you she goes to the clinic. She waits for less time than in your average emergency room here and her outcome will be better, on average, than what you get here in the USA with our average cost per person double that of the rest of the world. It will cost a tenth of what it does here when she goes, too.

You want science, then look to the studies done by the World Health Organization, or the Centers for Disease Control, or any other reputable organization that does science, not anecdote, and you will find out we pay twice what we should, our government is actually paying MORE of a percentage of its budget in health care than nations with true, universal, care, we wait longer, get rationed more either through insurance company scamming or or people simply staying home and getting too sick to fix out of fear of medical bankruptcy. The rationing is happening here all the time.

All of this nonsense WE, meaning you and me and everyone else, are paying twice the going rate for over here, is the direct result of a legislative system that is infected with corruption. Everybody now knows that the way you keep your piece of the pie and screw everyone else is by buying and owning your very own legislator. That is why we have laws that actually pay tax benefits to companies who close their manufacturing operations here and move them offshore. There is no logical reason to retain tax policies like this. The only reason is that there are wealthy segments of our society that can maximize return if the laws are crafted just so. So they pay a tiny percentage of their incomes to buy legislators.

And if the European democracies are running into trouble, welcome to the real world, because the USA is right there with them. Our financial system collapsed in the fall of 2008 and the plutocrats came running to Washington with pockets full of blank checks they wanted signed. We are in debt up to our eyeballs to, what? A frickin Communist economy? Our regulatory system has been systematically destroyed by 30 years of laissez faire philosophy let loose upon us. The moral high ground of consumer protection and buyers rights and job protecting policies has been abandoned to a system where the corrupt or weakened regulators let the corporations sign off on themselves. Any mention of possibly reversing this trend, standing up and saying to the corporations that, NO, they cannot do anything and everything they want is dismissed by numbskull Fox News viewers as "socialist."

Well, keep it up, righties. It is making democratic socialism sound better and better all the time.

Lastly, there is no such thing as a perfect system. Period. Every single endeavor of man, whether it be business, government, or anything else, is loaded with built-in error modes and things that simply will not work. This laissez faire dream of the modern Rush Limbaugh listener, where you can do anything in the marketplace and supply and demand will fix it is pure anarchist fantasy.

Also, I have completely wandered off the Miele/Coffee System as subject while chasing the rabbit of philosophy. I will be happy to debate regulatory policy and practice in another forum if somebody would like to suggest one by name, but think I will stick with the Miele CVA-4066 here.

Ah, and now I think it is time for me to go grab a cup of delicious espresso with some hot milk foam on top! YUM!

Shannon, I completely agree that when I do buy new appliances the chances of them lasting 14 years without repair is highly unlikely and makes me a bit apprehensive about purchasing. In general, I don't think appliances are made to last like they used to be, partly because the energy star compliance involves newer components.
As far as the tax issue, I only meant for that to be informative and not a finger-shaking at anyone. I often see it mentioned on these forums about when purchasing on line there is no tax and that is not completely true. Whether they pay or not is up to them, they should just check into the laws in their state. Some states are very aggressive about this issue and ignorance of this could be costly.
Now, let's get back to the health care issue. Ohhhhh, I forgot, we were discussing the Miele coffee system! Or were we! While reading this thread, parts of the "I'm so over high end appliances" thread kept coming to mind along with another thread about Miele's customer service. My so called "reverse snobbery" just depends on how you look at it. I don't think of it that way at all. I think anyone should spend their money anyway they like and would truely never want a GE or Whirlpool appliance in their kitchen, and that is just a reality, not snobbery. Whether it is because they are chefs/cooks that feel that these are the best appliances for the job, or their home is higher priced, therefore calls for higher end ammenities or because they just want them. That is for each of us to decide.

" I think it is time for me to go grab a cup of delicious espresso "

Think you've already had too much today!

Mojave-man, hear! hear! on the health-care position. But may I just say, you are casting pearls before swine.

The trouble with almost any debate on this forum as in much of the media is that a proper weighting of the pros and cons cannot be done because ANY change to the status-quo which includes capital waste, protectionism (of industrialist rather than industry), utter disdain of regulation or hatred of regulatory reform gets dismissed as socialism. And chants like shannon+2's above that "this (without actually knowing what "this" is) is capitalism and we all just love it".

Anyhow, I just wanted to make 2 points.

Regarding ebay, because I'm not much of an ebayer, I went to the ebay-appliances-xxx page over the long weekend and looked up new items for sale to verify this no-ebay-warranty-thank-you-very-much data that everyone here but mojavean and I seem to be informed on. Well, just about every other item on sale - especially those selling a brand new item and even some selling an open box never-used items claimed that it came with a manufacturers warranty. So at what juncture does that warranty disappear? Or is that claim a bait and switch tactic?

Finally, Antss, the problem I have in comprehending you is that you blow the way of the prevailing winds. When one points out the high price of German goods, you sneer that most Yanks are too penny-wise to know a good product and that they should just be prepared to pay for superior product. When it is pointed out that these same items sell for a lot less and in less annointed environs in ze fahterland, you sneer that "but this isn't the fahterlund and Miele has chosen to arbitrarily price themselves handsomely here. If don't like it, let the market do the talking". Well, old chum, Mojavaean's expedition here to ebay here, despite the constipation it is giving you, is just that - the market talking, darling.

Look, I'm as much a fan of Miele, Kuppersbusch, Poggenpohl or the next up-market German Turbo-charged brand as the next chap. But as the progeny of people who've owned these brands longer than I've ever cared about dishwashers, kitchens or furniture, I also know how much they cost "back home", know roughly just how rare is the air at which they actually live. So, unlike you who will fall over genuflecting to their marketing dictats, I fall over guffawing at their wish to be able to position themselves as supreme simply because they want it to be so.

Finally, to bring it all back to coffee, ol' DH is oddly unperturbed that Mojavean thinks he has a coffee-snobbery malady OR that I had to come here to verify it. (Its that darned Weissman's approbation of the same, I tell you.) So it looks like I shall have to deal with the mess. Still don't get the coffee fetish but I suppose I have my own foibles when it comes to tea so will have to suffer with the royal mess and no cool in-built coffee-maker - ebay or no ebay ;-)

"claimed that it came with a manufacturers warranty"

sellers can claim anything.

it's called a manufacturer's warranty , and the contract is with the manufacturer - a third party cannot alter the contract without the manuf. written consent which will never happen.

storm - let me try and clarify the winds for you.

I don't think moja's problem quite meets the vote the free market I was/am talking about. He should not have bought a product from Miele in the first place. By telling people about this he brings the debate forward and can shape the market if he convinces enough people to to not buy Miele gear because they do this or that. Look at the aforementioned Maytag. They used to make superior washers, and no they don't really exist anymore. Enough people vote with their wallets by nit buying their washers because they turned to crap.

Re: the Gaggenau / Miele fatherland thing. Gaggenau is highline- high quality - high price everywhere. Miele USA is really a different business than Miele Germany and what I'm saying is they have chosen to position themselves here as ONLY a high quality make. They don't import even half of their offerings to this market, and like I've mentioned to dodge before they are not simply putting a NA plug on their units, shipping them here and jacking up the price over the German/Euro markets. If a product is available both places the prices are very similar after currency variables are considered. Miele simply doesn't offer mid to entry products here. Because they offer a more broad range in Europe their rep. is slightly lower simply because of exclusivity.

Benz does the same thing here. You couldn't get a SMART here until they figured out how to distance that brand from MBenz so as not to dilute the mark. They did the same thing with their vans via Freightliner and Dodge.

I take exception at your assertion that I bow to the marketing chants or the winds of corp. top floors. I make no bones about being a Miele fan. But I also rec. lots of other makes. It's all dependent on the customer's need/wants.

What I really have a problem with is what's moja's complaining about: I tried to save a few bucks by not buying through an authorized distribution channel and now the manuf. won't help me free of charge.

The (my) problem is not that he's complaining per se, but that he seems to feel he has no responsibility in this and that it's totally Miele's fault because they are bad or that the system is bad because big government has allowed companies to set prices for their own products and say where they are sold by upholding a decades old practice.

My problem with him over the health care thing is his math. Sure an office visit for the flu is cheaper in Canada than walking into the ER here in the USA. No one will rally debate this. ER's are set up for trauma and critical care and that care is very expensive to deliver. My tummy hurts or I have a cough don't really qualify but the public doesn't really feel like waiting because they are soft and or lazy. I saw it in the UK as I worked in an ER for 8 months. Care was no cost out of pocket and people would still come to the ER for sore knees, headaches, whatever instead of making an appointment with their family doctor which was also no cost, simply because they's have to wait several weeks to see him. They wait at the ER too sometimes a whole day while serious stuff like guys that got shot with a nail gun, or wrecked a motorcycle, or broke they arm playing soccer were attended to.

Anyway the overall total cost of socialized system is more than a private one and the numbers bear that out. Oh and the CDC doesn't really keep that info, or didn't . It's not in their pervue. If they do now, please point me to the hard data.