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Need everything for a new kitchen...

Posted by NolaRenovator (My Page) on
Fri, May 24, 13 at 13:01

I am building a new house and would like to have a high functioning kitchen. While I'm not a professional chef, I enjoy cooking and PROPERLY FUNCTIONING APPLIANCES.

I’m looking for the following items:
--36” Rangetop with some 15k BTU burners (Considering BlueStar, Thermador, DCS)
--Dual Wall ovens with at least 1 convection (Considering Thermador, DCS, KA, Whirlpool)
--French door, bottom freezer refrigerator with internal filtered water dispenser; no door dispensary. (Considering Whirlpool Gold)
--Dishwasher that cleans dishes and dries them (considering Thermador, Bosch, Kenmore Elite; I’ve read FPaykel have high repair counts)
--Rangehood with external fan / output (considering Thermador, Vent A Hood, Blue Star)

On our secondary list are the following items (these may not make it in due to budget):
--Warming drawer
--Wine chiller
--Ice maker

One of my primary requirements is an oven that has an input device (knob or buttons) that allows me to set a desired temperature. Once I set the temperature, I want the oven to uniformly heat to that temperature in a reasonable amount of time (5-10 minutes?).

I had a KitchenAid dual convection wall oven that simply didn't get to the assigned temperature even after a control board replacement.

While this seems like a basic requirement for a wall oven, the comments on GW and the internet make this functionality seem about as popular as a unicorn.

I've had a regular appliance sales rep tell me DCS wall ovens are within 2-3 degrees F of their set temp. Anyone have experience with this?

I’ve looked at the Thermador promotion and it seems attractive given their dishwashers (I think) are made by Bosch (which is consistently highly rated).

I like the ideas of all burners going to 18k BTU as in the Thermador; but I’m also intrigued by the 22k BlueStar.

I don’t know much about dishwashers, but again, please clean and dry my dishes. I don’t need the remaining time broadcast onto the floor.

I’m eager to hear what the forum has to say about this project as I trust the responses are from avid and engaged contributors.

Please post back any questions and I’ll try to reply.

Thanks!


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Need everything for a new kitchen...

--36” Rangetop with some 15k BTU burners

Bluestar. It is not just the extra power but the evenness of the heat and that BS burners direct the heat to the bottom of the pan. The other rangetops you are considering with sealed burners direct much of the heat around the pan and up to the ceiling. Bluestar grates can also be used as wok rings and can elevate pots by simple lift and twist to lower simmer temps.

--Dual Wall ovens with at least 1 convection

I would look at Electrolux( Kenmore Pro also made by Electrolux has knobs instead of screen) , Wolf and Gaggenau. These all have excellent heat evenness with Gagg being tops but also most expensive.

--French door, bottom freezer refrigerator with internal filtered water dispenser; no door dispensary.

Whirlpool Gold is a good option a better one is GE Café made by Samsung(consistently rated tops for freestanding French Doors)

--Dishwasher that cleans dishes and dries them

Thermador and most Kenmore Elite are made by Bosch. A few models are made by Whirlpool.

If you are looking at dishwashers under $1300 I would get the Bosch if looking at those above this price point I would get Miele.

--Rangehood with external fan / output

Bluestar is a very good option they also made Prizer hoods which come in more styles. They also make the hoods for Prestige hoods but they come with their own blowers.

Another good options is Modern Aire. Of the less expensive options Best is the one to get.

--Warming drawer

I would get one that matches your double wall ovens. Not a huge difference between brands. If getting a paneled drawer or if placing away from ovens then maybe something on sale.

--Wine chiller

Best is Perlick. They have seconds for a good discount on their website. Also good is Liebherr(if noise is priority) and Marvel(if maintaining temps is priority).

--Ice maker

A good one cost as much as your refrigerator and is an electricity and water hog. A cheap one is a PITA.


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RE: Need everything for a new kitchen...

"The other rangetops you are considering with sealed burners direct much of the heat around the pan and up to the ceiling."

I only have experience with the DCS, and its flames will heat the bottoms of your pans, unless you use teeny weeny sizes. You can use a 6" dia pan on the smaller 12.5K BTU burner, and an 8" one on the 17.5K BTU one and the flames will stay under the bases, even on max. Because the burners are sealed, and the deck is a brushed-type stainless steel, clean-up is a breeze. Spills do not burn onto the deck, as the heat is directed upwards at the cookware. Your ceiling won't get any hotter than it would with a Bluestar, but clean-up will be wayyyyyyyy easier.


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RE: Need everything for a new kitchen...

its flames will heat the bottoms of your pans

All cooktops will heat pans, never claimed otherwise, but open burners will do it more efficiently as a greater percentage of the heat is directed at the bottom of the pan. And you will have the option of higher temps.

the flames will stay under the bases

The flames are directed across the cooktop not at the bottom of the pan. If you have a very large pan then most of the heat will hit the pan but will have cold spots in the center of the pan.

Your ceiling won't get any hotter than it would with a Bluestar,

No kidding.

but clean-up will be wayyyyyyyy easier

Absolute and totaoooool nonsense.


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RE: Need everything for a new kitchen...

deeageaux is there a way to tell by the model number of a kenmore elite who it is made by? I am replacing a kenmore elite dishwasher and just curious what type it is.


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RE: Need everything for a new kitchen...

Obviously the open-burner fanboys who dominate the cooktop conversations on this board have never cooked on, nor cleaned a DCS, or I wouldn't be accused of lying about the performance of my range.

To the OP - take your fav pots/pans with you to the appliance dealer and test drive the items on your short list. You are the one who will have to live with your choices.


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RE: Need everything for a new kitchen...

NolaRenovator,
The three rangetops you have chosen are very different. They appeal to different types of cooks. If you can find live demo units, you can see for yourself. Look at the shape of the flame, put your pans on it and see what would be easier for you to clean. If you search the brands, here, you can get an idea of how the appliances function and I would weight more heavily the validity of reviews from actual owners who have experience with the appliances you are considering.

Posted by deeageaux
The flames are directed across the cooktop not at the bottom of the pan.

What do you mean by this? I am wondering what brand you are talking about. I've never anything like this. Please post a picture. That would be scary.
Would this provide more even heat though if you were using a griddle primarily :-J ?

If you have a very large pan then most of the heat will hit the pan but will have cold spots in the center of the pan.

But if you have the heat in the center of that pan you have, you will have cold outsides. If you are having that problem, the pan does not conduct heat well. The solution is to get a more heat conductive pan, something in adequate amounts of copper or aluminum is best. You will find this will conduct your heat more effectively on all burner configurations. Actually silver is best but $$$$. Stainless is only a moderate conductor of heat and steel and cast iron are relatively poor conductors of heat. There are pans with layers of aluminum or copper encapsulated in stainless but it is difficult to determine the thickness of these layers and the function of the core is diminished by the stainless. You can put them in the dishwasher though and some want that feature in cookware. Cookware is the most important thing in determining the evenness of heat to food. Whatever burner you buy, you can't change it, and if you have the interest in cooking to consider these types of rangetops, it is critical to understand cookware and use what will enhance the performance of your range. Many have seen this but for a new poster, I am reposting.
Cookware for engineers

"I would look at Electrolux( Kenmore Pro also made by Electrolux has knobs instead of screen) , Wolf and Gaggenau. These all have excellent heat evenness with Gagg being tops but also most expensive.

How did you reach that conclusion? What in using them have you found to be the differences? What types of items and how many racks did you use at a time to compare the three?

I own an Electrolux and Wolf oven(36 inch), in a range, and they both work great and have heated evenly over the last 41/2 years. I bake layer/tiered cakes and half sheets of appetizers, several quiches at a time or pies using all the racks sometimes and things cook very evenly We entertain fairly often so I will often have my ovens filled. The Elux does preheat in about 7 minutes to 350, but if you are baking cakes or something that requires very even heat, you will need to let any oven preheat for at least 30 minutes after it comes to temperature. The Wolf has dual fans which are a benefit in keeping the temperature even especially on the 36 inch oven. I can't recommend either at present though because the blue enamel is pitting on the bottom of both over the element after less than five years. I also had another brand with blue enamel that failed as well. I personally would avoid blue enamel. My Elux "shed" enamel when it was new and they replaced it. There are instances with Wolf as well.

Posted by rikerk
deeageaux is there a way to tell by the model number of a kenmore elite who it is made by? I am replacing a kenmore elite dishwasher and just curious what type it is.

I'm not deeageaux but here is one source for that info.

Here is a link that might be useful: Who makes Sears appliances?


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RE: Need everything for a new kitchen...

There is NO oven that will preheat in 10 minutes AND be perfectly equilibrated across the whole oven in 10 minutes, even thou the beeper or light has told you so. It just takes about 30 minutes as Wekick says for the whole oven to "even out".Now for foods that aren't that fussy, roasts, meatloafs, etc, 10 minutes is fine and in fact I've yet to cook anything in my Elux oven that has baked uneven, BUT we do not bake cakes, or 3 shelves of cookies,pizzas, etc where such performance would be necessary.

I do have a DCS cooktop outside, they are open kind of star like burners, maybe different from wekicks, but I have to continuously stir that which is in the pot pan from the outside to the center, otherwise that which is on the outside of the pan would be burned and that which is toward the center of the pan would not be done,---so maybe that's the reason there are fans of the Blue Star and Capital Cullinarian stye burners. To me it's "No Biggie", I know I need to stir and I don't mind the exercise---Your Mileage may vary!

Gary
I


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RE: Need everything for a new kitchen...

Thank you all for the generous and informative replies. Does anyone have feedback on pros / cons of the following two approaches:
1. Best of breed approach (e.g. top quality dishwasher from brand A; top quality ovens from brand B; top quality rangetop from brand C)
2. Buying several from a single brand to obtain "deal" pricing / rebates, etc.
(e.g. Thermador 1-2-free promotion)

Thank you very much for the feedback so far.


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RE: Need everything for a new kitchen...

Best of breed approach, all the way! I can't imagine saving enough on a single brand deal to make up for the compromises inherent in that approach. I'd rather choose for myself where to economize - I paid mucho for my range and vent system, but had no problem choosing a much cheaper fridge, and an extremely cheapo microwave.

Others may have different priorities for ranking their appliances, but most would rather do it for themselves than delegate such expensive decisions to an impersonal multi-national manufacturer.


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RE: Need everything for a new kitchen...

Things I would consider:

- Induction cooktops are more efficient than gas and will give you a better result with a high sear and low simmer and everything in between. Effective BTU on the burners is over 20k.
- Ovens obey the laws of physics. It takes time for an oven to get to temp. When the oven says it is at the set temp, that is the air temp. If the thermal mass of the oven has not yet reached the set temp (this will take over 30mins) when you open the door, the temp will plummet. Even when the thermal mass is at the set temp, when you open the door the temp will drop at least 25F, assuming you are quick. The mere act of putting cold food in the oven lowers the temp.
- What the oven is set at and what the oven temp is, are very loosely correlated. Read the section in Modernist Cuisine (2.101) or The Science of Good Cooking to see how wildly ovens vary from their set temp - +/- 75F is not shocking. The sensors in the oven are not accurate enough to read the 2-3 degrees your salesman (likely on commission) states.
- Ovens work by the heating element heating the air. When the sensor detects the air temp is above the set temp the heating element is turned off and the oven cools. When the sensor detects the air temp is below the set temp it turns the heating element on. A graph of the temp over time is a saw tooth shape. The size of the saw tooth depends on the quality of the sensors.
- Go best of breed when buying appliances. A kitchen is about function not looks.


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RE: Need everything for a new kitchen...

I would just chime in that I would recommend a Miele DW. It's p what I picked on the advice of the Forum ten years ago. And. We. Loved it. Sold house and. Now with crappy Kitchen Aid. Can't wait to replace! Good luck. House sounds beautiful!


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RE: Need everything for a new kitchen...

Nolarenovator:

Here's what I would summarize from having read waaaayyy too many of these threads...

The cooking enthusiasts will generally recommend a best in breed approach:
Pros: no one manufacturer makes the best in every category. Obviously, you get the best performance by mixing and matching. You can save money by mixing splurge and saves, and take advantage of specials and floor model discounts.
Cons: Truly selecting best in breed can be expensive and it can result in a mishmash of styles and color shades. Blending a Lacanche range next to a Gaggeneu wall oven can be a challenging.

Choosing one manufacturer:
Pros: Can result in a good deal. Everything matches (if you care)
Cons: No one manufacturer makes the best in anything. Some make a great oven and a so-so refrigerator.

Many advocate the middle ground:
a. make a priority on what you value most (function vs. style vs price vs ?) on each appliance. Most people view a microwave as a "don't care" for function but will break into fisticuffs over a range.
b. Consider your layout, and make sure items next to each other (or nearby) blend well, including their handles. One saleswoman I dealt with would develop proposal slides based on my wishlist, selecting the model variations within a mixture of manufacturers to provide stylistic options while still hitting the "must haves", and then put together a kitted price that provided substantial savings.

just my 2cents


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RE: Need everything for a new kitchen...

Of the items you mentioned I have a Bosch DW, F&P refrig and DCS range. 5 plus yrs now and all have worked perfectly. I especially love the simmer on the DCS burners. I have never had a range with all dual stacked burners for simmer and I use them a lot.


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