jkom - There's a frequent contributor to this forum, whose name escapes me at the moment, who takes every opprortunity (and then some) to dispell the idea that induction is more efficient than gas due to the manufacturing process of electricity. After time and time again finding his/her posts, which tend to be even more annoying than the cliche claims that induction is more efficient, I did my own study as it pertains to energy costs where I live, on Long Island, NY. My intention was to show, under the assumption that we really don't care about efficiency of manufacture/delivery as much as we do about bottom line to our energy costs, that the argument was wrong.

Much to my annoyance, I came to the conclusion that that poster was right, at least where I live. But then, as I walked away from my computer feeling somewhat defeated, it dawned on me: My calculations were based on the assumption of the highest power burner (3.5 KW or 22K BTU)being on, full blast, for a full hour a day - probably more energy than the average household uses on their cooktop - and yet the annual difference was less than $200.

As a result, I say to anyone primarily concerned with saving on their energy bills, consult with your local utlilites to make comparisons that are meaningful to YOU. For everyone else here who is looking for cooking performance and isn't too concerned about an extra few bucks (literally) a month in energy costs, let's stay on topic.

From the OP:
"We're leaving induction out of the picture - although if pricing was similar and it was available in a range...."

Well, I don't know about price (probably high), but here's a range:
http://www.divainduction.com/products.php?product=11

Here is a link that might be useful: Induction range

Hi dpkform,
We have a 2 year old Bosch electric. Was $1800. We don't like it. (we use allclad cookware) All 4 stove top limiters turn the power on and off about every 10 seconds. Takes forever to boil water or brown stew meat. Bosch customer service said they have not changed those stove top limiters in the past two years. Good luck to you.

We recently went from an electric range with coil burners to a Bosch gas range (not top of the line). We did it for 2 reasons. Here in North Carolina we sometimes get power failures during an ice storm. They don't happen often, but we felt we need to be able to use the cooktop when the power is out. The second reason is that I don't trust the smooth surface electric tops. You can't move a pot from one place to another without a risk of scratching the surface. And some recipes call for shaking the pan while you're cooking. CAN'T DO THAT WITH SMOOTH TOP ELECTRIC. Besides, you need to get special cleaners to clean the tops. We are 100% pleased with our Bosch gas range. BTW, when you turn the gas heat to minimum, you can get superb control to simmer or keep a Hollandaise sauce just right until it's time to serve.

Haus_proud, if you'd gone with the ceramic cooktop, you'd have probably found how they are not so delicate to use, and the thing that worked best to clean the one we had was Barkeeper's Friend, which is pretty common and economical. We used ours, including having kids cook on it, for 8 or 9 years without scratching or breaking it, and with much easier cleaning than the coil ranges we've had. I didn't worry about sliding the pot back and forth a bit to shake popcorn while making it, for example. (I can't think of anything else I felt the need to shake...and maybe if I did and thought I might bang the cooktop, I'd hold it up off the surface a bit.) So I wouldn't let those reasons keep me from having another. However, there wouldn't be a favorable comparison to our 15K BTU burners when it comes to the quicker reaction to heat adjustment, the recovery time, or, certainly, the ability to operate it during a power outage. I can sear meat so nicely now, where it tended to want to leach moisture and boil when being prepared on the electric.

Wow - thanks for sharing your opinions and experiences everyone.

The "point" of my OP was questioned - well pretty much as explained - I was "surprised" based on what I had read here, and my own experience with a cheap GE builders grade gas range, that electric seemed to offer more advantages.

Since I don't have an opportunity to try both a Bosch top line electric and gas range side by side - I had to go by the above. That seemed to indicate gas did not trump electric. Nothing posted here yet seemed to challenge what I also felt - that gas SHOULD be better, but electric seemed to have more advantages. So glad to get all the feedback, especially from those who have used Bosch electric ranges and been underwhelmed.

Bluestar gas not in the budget, top line Bosch about the highest we could go - though a Bertazonni for a couple hundred more has temtping aesthetics.

My DW thinks cooking with the Bosch, would be easier than with the Bertazonni, especially given the top-line Bosch's meat probe. We seem to have a hard time not overcooking roasts in the oven.

And that takes us to a topic I won't rehash - but I have gathered here, that there is somewhat of a consensus that gas ovens are better for meat roasts. Of course we also broil a lot of fish and other items, and it seems with the Bosch, that an electric oven boiler would be nicer than a gas one.

Our electricity rates here in Toronto are very cheap - 5 cents per KWH for the first 1000KWH per month, and 5.9 cents per additional KWH.

Ya know, whichever way you end up going, you purchase a little remote thermometer thingy to help you not overcook your roast. Some have a thin metal cable to attach the probe to the thermometer base, others use radio signals to communicate between the two. You set a temperature (some have built-in settings so you don't have to look anything up) and an audible alarm goes off when the roast gets there. The gadget costs about $30 or $40 here in the US, depending on how fancy it is. Find the stove that pleases you the most overall. If it has a meat probe, fine. If not, one of these may be just the thing to help you not overcook your dinner.

By the way, the radio-controlled ones are really nice if you like to do traditional barbecue outdoors. You can have the base station indoors and avoid going outside to check the temperature, lifting the lid and letting out all the smoke and heat....

I've used both gas & electric, alternating between the two for 25 years as I went from apartment to apartment, then to a condo (electric 7 years) and finally the house I currently own (gas, now 7 years). We are remodeling with a new gas range, but in the meantime have moved out of the house into our basement apartment which has an electric range.

I'm a pretty good cook and I can honestly say that I can cook well on both gas & electric. They are certainly different and it takes some adjustment going from one to the other but once you get used to it, it's not a big problem. A good electric stove will give you very fast temperature adjustment, and you get used to moving pots on and off burners for immediate adjustment, rather than turning the flame up and down. (And unless you have very thin pots & pans, temperature adjustment on gas is less than instantaneous anyway.)

In fact, I'm surprised at how fast my "new" electric range boils pasta water--much faster than the gas range ever did, probably because all the heat is concentrated on the bottom of the pot. One thing I DON'T like about gas is that (unless you have a very large pot) at higher temperatures the heat comes up around the sides of the pot and is wasted.

fenworth, I should have clarified in my post about my friend's blog on electricity prices - he took the figure of 1,000 kilowatts because that is on average, what he uses every month. I am assuming he must have some electrical appliances, either range or WH, because mine averages half that amount: we use gas for cooking & clothes dryer/heating; electrical for lights, refrig, separate freezer, microwave, lots of fans in summer (nobody has AC in coastal Northern CA), and a 4-person computer network that's on 12/7.

As I specifically said in my posting, electrical ranges make little sense in our area, where electricity is more costly than gas. My friend Vivek found that one of his friends uses 4,000 kilowatts per month(!), but because the guy lives in a state with low electricity costs, his electrical cost is 9x less on the top tier of use than it would be in Northern CA.

Our local utility has its tiers set at very low baseline levels - I don't know any homeowners who aren't getting hit with at least some Tier III (most expensive) costs every month, no matter what conservation steps are taken. So switching from gas to electric might mean a noticeable increase in one's PG&E bill on a monthly basis.

If gas flames are so hot, why aren't there gas-fired self-cleaning ovens?

There are gas self-cleaning ovens - but they're not that common - DCS and Capital both have them.

I prefer electric. My three biggest annoyances with gas have been....

1) That curtain of hot air that comes up around each pot/pan being heated combined with the cool-spot in the middle.

2) Undependable control at lowest settings. As often as not, the lowest settings aren't low enough and/or the flame goes out. I don't like having to keep checking it out.

3) The long time to bring a big pot to a boil combined with the long time to return to boil after adding pasta. Only the high-end gas ranges offer any relief from this in my experience.

For me, being able to choose a number on the dial and being able to depend on it is a huge advantage over my experience with gas ranges.

As for many others, I can cook well with both. However, I much prefer electric.

I've used gas and electric, but not induction. I don't really have too much of a preference. The one thing I will agree with is the fact that the flame causes heat to flare all over the place no matter what size the flame is.

You can feel the heat escaping around the pan and into the kitchen and get more than one pan going and you can feel the heat leaving the kitchen. Really not good for Central air conditioning bills.

I appreciate this thread. Around here, saying you like electric is almost like saying you like laminate countertops. Or, since everything here seems to end up with a car analogy, saying you'd rather drive a Yugo.

Asolo, if I'd had your experience with gas, I'd much prefer electric in comparison, too! It really brings a different perspective to things when I've always heard that gas is 'always' better.

LOL, Sammi2...I completely agree. I was never unhappy with our electric, and was used to dealing with it...It was all I'd ever had, and was just happy to be rid of the coils when we went to ceramic top. I have to say that a downside of our amazing Wolf rangetop, is that in cleaning, it reminds me of the coils...One of my dd's still strongly misses the smooth top and 'no fire!'

Two things, I think that high end ranges are typically made to have a gas cooktop so you don't really see the highend electric cooktops much (if they even exist). I had an old electric range at my last house and it was different to cook on. You just had to learn what you needed to do (remove the pan instead of just turning the burner down).

One other thing to looka t is the reliability of your utility. Gas supplies rarely get turned off whereas electricity can and does go down (in some places frequently). So is the electricity down often enough to be a problem for you?

I'm glad to see this thread has evolved into a really good objective discussion.

I think we have proven one thing here - that gas is NOT better than electric - it is DIFFERENT.

Some people will prefer the objective differences that Gas DOES have some advantages over other fuels - you can use almost any type of pan with it, and the utility costs are typically lower, and gas supplies tend to be more reliable than electric supplies. It is somewhat more responsive to temperature changes - though again - a lot depends on range quality. It is perhaps the most visceral, romantic, way to cook - that goes for me too.

To claim gas is better - because a 22,000 BTU burner can boil water fast, is downright silly, when an induction range with a powerful element on powerboost would outright humiliate that high end gas range - and would not raise the room temperature by 20 degrees while doing so. It's perhaps only slighty less absurd that starting a large fire in a fireplace in the middle of your living room, so you can roast meat faster. But hey - it works - and it feels good - providing it is not already a hot day, and your air conditioner is up to the job.

Some people who choose gas do not truly do so objectively. If they made a list of all relevant criteria - they may find electric wins in their case - but it is not wrong to choose passion over function - we do it all the time.

For the factors that I consider important, electric seems to win the pros/cons analysis versus gas. That said, I enjoy cooking on gas - even though objectively, it is the inferior choice for me - it still has a lure - even for me. If not for this kind of allure - no one would ever buy a sports car, nor would people who want a safe vehicle actually purchase a typical SUV - sometimes the illusion, or lack of objective research is often more compelling than the reality.

Induction is yet another form of electric - which has its own pros and cons.

A good cook can do an equally good job with either type of fuel.

Superior cooktops/ranges of course will work better than inferior ranges - but this is NOT a direct function of the fuel they use.

The fact most high end ranges are gas is mostly due to a mindset created by marketing hype - a nearly unassailable mindset that pepople have passionately bought in to, together perhaps with the fact almost everyone loves a campfire. It is not because gas is unequivocally better. Again - I am NOT saying gas is undeniably worse for everyone, just that a lot of people would find their needs, rather than their wants and passions, are on the objective balance of all criteria, better served by electric.

Remember when microwaves started coming with rotating carousels? They were hailed as the most innovative design, and other microwaves were labelled inferior - as they could not heat food as evenly. Pretty soon no one wanted a microwave unless they could see it had a rotating tray.

Of course - the problem is - you could not longer use a large square dish anymore - as it would not fit when rotating. Panasonic introduced a breakthrough innovation - they started producing microwaves that rotated the waves themselves - not the foods - so consumers could have the best of both worlds. A brilliant idea - and far superior to the simplistic rotating dish.

Unfortunately, Panasonic's system was invisisble, so people thought of these microwaves as inferior - since they had no rotating tray. Despite Panasonics efforts, too much marketing of the benefits of a rotating tray had created an unassailable mindset that rotating trays were better. Panasonic eventually gave up and put in the rotating trays.

I think the problem is that your title seems to assert that unequivocally electric trumps gas while your "analysis" on it asserts that it is all about personal preference.

That said, I've had electric. I've had gas. I'll gladly concede that a low-end gas had detriments to a low-end electric - although it also had some attributes over the low-end & higher-end electrics, too.

I now have a high-end gas. I don't know that there is a high-end electric (leaving aside induction which I'll come back to) so I can say that a high-end gas trumps even the smooth-top ceramic I've had in the past. Whoever talks about gas heat flaring around their pots doesn't seem to realize that you turn down the flame as rhome said (at least, you can do so in the Wolf units) when you have a small diameter pot. I do this all the time. 99.5% of the time, you don't need a 15KBTU or a 22KBtu flame when you're cooking on a 6" pot. There is no "cool spot" in the center with a good hot flame. Why would a flame think to "flare" around the outside of the pot but not "flare" in? Anyhow, I have a nice uniformly hot bottom of the pan with slow or fast bubbles forming from all over the bottom of the pan when stuff is boiling or simmering.

Simmer - I have NEVER ever been able to simmer well in an electric. I was able to simmer better but not completely & comfortably well even in a mid-range gas. I am able to simmer wonderfully well in a high-end range. Blow out? Not at all. Whoever had that experience needs a better stove (I did, that's why I upgraded).

BTW, I have no cave-man tendencies and don't need to see flames, thanks. I just want good precision.

Now induction. Yes, it was very tempting. The reactive highs and lows were very tempting as was the ability to get a black top to disappear on a black counter (now *that* is passion, speaking). Its one disadvantage was a very big one for me. At 50KW or whatever the big honking power draw needed to be for induction, I was looking at either maxing out the breaker-box slots I had (the second breaker-box that is) or going to a new one - I don't recall which. And it isn't like I have a lot of power drawing equipment in my house - one laundry drier and one single electric oven. That's it. So this was a HUGE deterrent for me and an easy one for us to say no-thank-you to.

Ergo, without passion (well, a little bit for the "side" that lost, but I had to squelch it) or prejudice, gas turned out to be the superior choice chez moi.

"Whoever talks about gas heat flaring around their pots doesn't seem to realize that you turn down the flame"

And thereby are not using full power to get a small pot to boil. Perhaps not a major issue. But a valid claim. My experience with gas is limited, but I specifically recall once being frustrated with how low I needed to turn the flame in order to hit a saucier on a DCS range.

"Why would a flame think to "flare" around the outside of the pot but not "flare" in?"

The same reason you have to turn your heat down for small pots. Probably because on most burners (Bluestar a notable exception) the holes that the gas come out face outward.

You know, this discussion reminds me of the old open vs. sealed burner debates, or the granite/Corian wars on the kitchen forum. Guess what, there's no one objective answer. Much of it is personal preference and it's okay to like what you like!

And thereby are not using full power to get a small pot to boil.

True, but my point is also that when you're cooking a smaller volume of food that you generally don't need full power*. But the fact is that - barring the new diameter-sensing burners of some of the new inductions - that ceramics also have the same problem, no? Put a small pot on a big burner and you're heating an awful lot of dead air. You have to move to a smaller ring. And BTW, I don't think I've seen a ceramic stove with a smaller diameter than a larger diameter gas rings.

Sure, it is absolutely true that if you don't turn down the gas flame for a small pot that it will flare around it, but the fact is that the uncovered electric ring will also inefficiently conduct since your pot doesn't cover it.

*I am surprised that you've had to turn down the flame as much as you say you've had to for a small saucier. I haven't seen any sauciers that are too terribly small. I have a wolf (cooktop) and am usually able to use at least a high-medium on my smallest pots including those with straight sides.

Probably because on most burners (Bluestar a notable exception) the holes that the gas come out face outward
But the top of the grate itself is about 1-2 cm above the gas jets. Hot air rises and all that so frankly, by the time it hits the pan, the flame is almost entirely vertical anad isn't going sideways at all. The fact is that the presence of a pot causes the flame to "flatten" with some of the flame getting directed inwards and some outwards.

Actually, I'll confess I did write that tongue somewhat in cheek. The fact is that the flame will want to push outwards mostly because hot air wants to rise and equilibriate and it can't really "escape" from the center of the flame ring iwth the pot over it. But that said, some of the "flattening" does push towards the center of the pot although admittedly mostly out. Nevertheless, as I mentioned, you're getting a trapped center of very hot air in the center if you have a decent sized flame, and the net result is a very nicely heated bottom of pan.

Much of it is personal preference and it's okay to like what you like!
Amen.

This thread in general and the OP's various posts on it in particular make me chuckle. One gets the impression the OP is either an electric company lobbyist or has a serious axe to grind.

To the OP's last post:

I think we have proven one thing here - that gas is NOT better than electric - it is DIFFERENT

LOL - you haven't proven a thing here. What you have is a bunch of opinions. Nothing definitively factual.

The fact most high end ranges are gas is mostly due to a mindset created by marketing hype - a nearly unassailable mindset that pepople have passionately bought in to

Well since you want to be in the prove it mode - how about some facts to back up this statement of yours? Real facts - not your opinion. I find it laughable that you start out saying you want to focus the dicussion on low end electric vs low end gas - yet somehow jump to the conclusion the high end ranges are gas only due to marketing hype. I guess all the professional chef's and restaurants that overwhelmingly use professional gas ranges / etc. to cook with are victims of hype as well? Using your twsited logic, these chefs are too stupid to know their is no difference - and they are just deciding to use gas based on passion and not actual results. WOW. its amazing to me the steps some people (ie the OP) will go to convince themselves of what they want to hear.

berryberry

your post has me ROLFLMAO - relax - and take a look at BOTH of our posts.... don't worry - I am not saying that electric is always superior to gas - but we have in this thread dispelled the myth that gas is always superior to electric

Clearly you don't seem to understand how proving things work - or you would not have asked me to prove people no longer bought these Panasonic Microwaves because they had no turtable. Is this a disengenious way - of trying to trap me into something that can not be proven, and then attempting to jump on me, to claim that everything else I have posted - with objective criteria is now invalid?

It seems to spell the end of the universe as you know it - if gas is not the defacto superior cooking method - don't panic - gas may still be the right choice for you - or at least the choice you like better - and that's okay.

I did NOT state that gas was COMPLETELY inferior - yes - the catchy title INFERS that - and then my first post goes on to list reasons why - given a set of objective criteria, where electric appears to win.... and the resulting discussion has thankfully been quite objective - contrary to most of the religious fervor here over gas.

I DID say that I LIKE cooking with gas - and I went on in further posts to say that for some people given a set of criteria... that gas may indeed be the objective better choice for them..... but I also said, and this seems to be a sin to the religious zealots of gas - that gas is NOT ALWAYS the objectively better choice.

You have repeated the comment of last resort of the gas cooking religious fanatics... that if most professional kitchens use gas - it must be better... and if you bother to read the posts on this forum - you would see professional chefs weighing in saying they can cook equally well on both. Beyond that - it is subjective.

For restaurants, running as a business 7 days per week - utility costs are VERY important - and gas used on the scale can be a lot cheaper. Also - heating up a restaurant kitchen is less a concern that heating up an open concept living area in a home. Have you walked into such a kitchen and felt the heat - I mean literally? The figuratively stuff can be watched on hell's kitchen on TV - LOL. Professional chefs have other people to clean up the messes left behind.

Okay - have to add a car analogy here, since it is "du rigeur", - would you put racing slicks on your car in the summmer - because that is what professional race car drivers use? After all - they are the best for winning a race! Of course you would not - because for use by regular people - other important criteria must be considered.

Gas is a great way to cook - but it has MANY downsides that electric does not. Electric also has significant downsides compared to gas.

As said here - pick the one you like because you like it - and have evaluated it to be the best choice for you - there is no best choice for everyone under all circumstances. The only people who may be offended by this thread are those for whom gas cooking is some sort of religious identity.

SOME, certainly NOT all, of the people who bought professional gas ranges, are feeling very defensive because SOME people bought those ranges to show off - more than they did to cook. Let's face it - they are a status symbol - and those who purchased them for status will be particularly defensive.

And just to not get flamed - there are some very serious passionate cooks, who LOVE their professional gas ranges, and truly enjoy cooking on them more than on anything else, and feel they can cook better on those ranges - and don't give a crap what anyone thinks - and they are the ones who are chiming in to at least acknowledge electric can be better for certain reasons - but they prefer gas and for their reasons it is better for them.

just wanted to share a chuckle I just had....

I wonder how many people who are so emphatically convinced that gas cooktops are best, because they dominate professional kitchens, also decided to purchase dual fuel ranges, or electric ovens.... ;-)

I don't get the point of this discussion. I live in a cool climate (Bay Area) and use gas with copper pans. Works great. I guess I could put up solar panels to lower the price of electricity. (as mentioned, we're on a multi-tier price system). Knock your bills down a tier or two that way. I know in a hot climate, induction would be better if you cook a lot on top. But an electric oven is going to be as bad as a gas oven for baking as far as air conditioning is concerned.

Electric cooktops are the worse for cooking. Often the pans don't make good contact. Wait wait wait to get hot, then remove the pan and wait wait wait for the coil to cool- meanwhile it's just red hot with no pan on it. Who wants that?

I don't get the comment about dual fuel ... what's your point? An oven is not a cook top.

alex, I'm not sure dpkform has a discernible point. He's "proven" stuff to himself - I don't know what he's proven, nor how he's proven it, but that's okay, 'coz he's the OP and he's gotten to his resolution. I think a few of us are left scratching our heads re: his proofs, but then we're not the ones with uncertainties on gas-electric theorems that needed proving.

It's all good, man!

Making a decision of what's best for one's self is the point to this...Not a debate over semantics and the definition of 'proof,'...or even that 'electric trumps gas' for anyone other than dpkform. The OP decided not all gas appliances are equal and so gas may not be the best for everyone, including himself, but was a bit surprised to find this after believing there is a general consensus that 'gas is best'...period. These types of claims are rarely qualified into types of units or any other categories of 'proof', just generalized. I know that I, personally, have been told many times that I will 'love' gas, and that it is 'so much better than electric.' This is from different people owning all different levels of cooktops...Also some who have never owned an electric range.

I cringe when people try to 'catch' others with their words and throw them back at them. It's not always easy to communicate in writing and guarantee that everyone will take what you've said for what you really mean. It gets old, trying to cover your behind from attacks when you just want to share something with the group. Do we really need to keep saying, "For me" or "For my family" or "Only in my opinion" to be safe from this?

We don't all make these decisions using identical criteria or priorities. I am glad that dpkform has been able to conclude what's best for their household, and can feel good about the factors that led to that decision. That's a big accomplishment, and much better than 2nd guessing or having doubts about the brand new kitchen. It also may be a big help to others going over some of the same issues.

Enjoy your electric stove, dpkform! I am loving playing with my new gas rangetop, I would have loved to be able to try induction, but know I would have more than survived just fine, and fed my family quite well on radiant electric. It was never about fuel source for me, since I didn't even want to have to deal with gas or install the LP, but cooktop size and configuration mattered a great deal, and higher end gas was where I found what I needed. The other benefits we gained are a bonus, but we did give up some things, too.

rhome, I hardly think this is a fair to extrapolate *anything* from the schizophrenic "gas xxx trumps electric xxx trumps gas" dialog the OP is having with himself. And that "what's best for oneself" hardly seems to be the thesis of the OP's original post. As a matter of fact, the fact that "what is best for oneself is best determined by self" is more the conclusion of the respondents.

You say: "I, personally, have been told many times that I will 'love' gas, and that it is 'so much better than electric."
But this is hardly a valid complaint. You have bought a wolf rangetop. As best I recall, induction wasn't part of your list of considerations. Therefore, it is safe to say that Wolf and that ilk of gas appliances are unequivocally - I dare say - more responsive than any of the ceramics you may have acquired. We're not talking about Hotpoint or Kenmore gas to Hotpoint or Kenmore electric.

It gets old, trying to cover your behind from attacks when you just want to share something with the group. Do we really need to keep saying, "For me" or "For my family" or "Only in my opinion" to be safe from this?
Well, if you don't say as much, you're declaring a global optimal solution and then position yourself to be a target to all the individual case-studies for which your "proof" or "conclusion" or opinion was not optimal. If it isn't a explicitly an optimum solution for just you or your particular list of parameters then it must be a globally optimum solution, mustn't it?

I wish you good luck with whatever ceramic stovetop which I suspect you'd be most comfortably end up with. I seem to recall your extreme displeasure with your Wolf gas rangetop.

Like I mentioned before I really don't care what I am cooking with and have used both. Grew up with electric, then moved out into gas. It took me 2 or 3 weeks before I new what size flame would produce the result of the prior electric range setting of the number 3.

Next I had electric. It took me 2 or 3 weeks before I knew what setting would produce an the equivalent of XXX size gas flame. ON and ON and now I have gas again.

I do know about turning down the flame for smaller pots and quantities, but just to make sure, I just put a 2 qt tea kettle on the stove and turned it on to medium low flame. The flame is contained in the small area of the center of the kettle. Next I raised my hand and bare arm 4 inches over the kettle. Five seconds elapsed between the time I turned the burner on and when I raised my hand. Within those seconds I could feel the heat rising up over my hand and arm. This just did not happen with any electric range I've used - the heat went first into the pan. I would never be able to get this kettle to a boil with this size of flame and still there was heat rising almost at once.

One more thing I forgot. If there is one thing I don't particularly care for in my gas range is the fact that I cannot wear anything slightly loose(loose sleeves, shirts etc) for fear of it hitting around the flame and catching on fire. You can catch on fire using electric but there is no open flame present to get things going quicker. In the end I can cook on whatever is present...the two types are just different with characteristics that must be learned.

I have moved more times than I can count and have used both the high end models and lowest end models of both gas and electric. Imo, I have never had an electric cooktop that I could just leave it to cook anything, I have never been able to simmer, without constant stirring and there is always something a little burned on the bottom. I also find that boiling is also a challenge without having to keep moving the pot. With even the cheapest gas cooktop, ( and I know it was the cheapest because I went in and asked for the cheapest one they had since I only needed it for 6 months) I can simmer and when bringing to a boil just adjusting the flame and no boil overs. Also no constant babysitting of whatever I am cooking. You may be able to deal with that and enjoy it, to each his own but I now am settled and I bought a high end gas rangetop and all is well in my world. Enjoy your electric cooktop but I really don't think you convinced anyone of your findings.

An example of being taken wrongly, since I simply agreed with you, mindstorm, that he'd proven things to himself...and your statement that "it's all good." That's the way I read what he'd been through.

You are entirely wrong that I never considered induction. After initially planning to have two 30" electric ranges, and as happens when introduced to new and sometimes better ideas through these forums, my plan evolved to include a dbl oven and single, but wider induction cooktop. The induction plan was in place for about a year and a half, and was noted our building and wiring plans before we started building.

I have never had gas in my life and it was NOT a consideration AT ALL until well into the construction of our house (this past summer). It was when I realized I'd neglected my priority in wanting larger burners that I reluctantly, and with some fearfulness, turned to even look at gas. I was able to do that after reassurances from wonderful folks like cpovey and others who had experiences I hadn't. The fear lingered, though, and was the basis of my initial disappointment with and panic about my rangetop, and why I shared it on the kitchen forum, and was so grateful for some handholding through an emotional reaction to my doubts, and major adjustments by me and my family to an appliance fairly foreign to us. Thankfully, I wasn't attacked at that time for those negative feelings.

I'm in the midst of a major cleaning of that rangetop, the likes of which was never necessary with my ceramic range, nor, I believe would ever been a possibility with induction...Something I gave up to have the powerful and plentiful burners I have with the gas. The bad with the good.

It was not a complaint at all, but a simple comment that people I've run into seem to believe in the blanket superiority of gas, no matter their cooking or appliance experience...or no matter which gas or electric appliance. I thought from what he said, the OP had experienced the same, leading him to a bit of surprise to find out that electric could have some definite benefits. But I thought I explained this before.

I have already talked in previous posts in this thread about the advantages I've found over my old electric, so I am completely not understanding your last statement at all. Clearly, you don't know or understand the path I've taken to get here, or my feelings about it...Or clearly, I have stated them, and my empathy for the OP, poorly.

I felt this thread had taken a turn the OP never expected, which when it happens, I think is sad for someone wanting to share.

I've always valued and respected your objective input. I really hope I've done better with my explanation this time, because your comments don't speak to what I was attempting to get across. I feel like a person who thought I was going to get 2 arguing friends to see each other's viewpoints, but instead stepped in and just in time to take the punch.

BINGO!

rhome gets it right!

those complaining about being confused - are perhaps trying to come to a conclusion over which is always better - when the point is neither is always better - it depends on your criteria and personal prefences.

I suppose I should not be so hard on such people - since a recent study found that people in general - actually hate having too many choices - because it causes them to worry they might make the wrong choice. That pretty much describes all of us here at least some of the time, right?

unitl this thread, there was a misconception on this forum that gas is ALWAYS better - and this thread has brought together a set of criteria and experiences to show that this is not the case

now in this thread - when someone does a search on gas vs electric - they will find not just "gasmatic dogma" but actual pros and cons to both - that can help them evaluate what is best for them and/or which they prefer - and can make a more intelligent decision.

THAT IS THE OP'S decision to - for anyone who actually read the posts - not just the conclusion of other posters.

Happy indecisions ! :-) By the way - just read another negative to not gas specifically, but ceramic cooktops, in a review comment by a Bosch electric range user on sears.com. The reviewer there did not criticize the fuel, but criticised how pans slide around on the glass surface, whereas they stay more firmly planted on gas grates (and would on electric coil tops too). The reviewer claimed it was often impossible to stir a dish with one hand, and add ingredients with the other, as the non-stirring hand has to be used to keep the pot from sliding on the smooth coooktop.

In terms of the Bosch line of ranges - there are two major disadvantages to the slideins. The Bosch slide in lacks the optimal burner spacing, and the stainless steel surface on the freestanding range. Aesthetically for us, in terms of the Bosch ranges - for gas cooktops we also prefer the look of the all stainless freestanding. For Bosch electric cooktop ranges we prefer the look of the slideins.

Ok dpkform - I think someone nailed it when they refered to your schizophrenic posts and conclusions. The whole thread is pointless. I think you simply enjoy bloviating about something you want so hard to prove yet can't. Unfortunately for you, as is clear and as numeorus others have pointed out, you've proven nothing except in your own mind and anyone who reads this thread will see so.

I also find it laughable that you respond to my post with a long rambling diatribe but yet refused to answer the questions I posed. To refresh your memory, you said

The fact most high end ranges are gas is mostly due to a mindset created by marketing hype - a nearly unassailable mindset that pepople have passionately bought in to

Again, since you want to be in the prove it mode - how about some facts to back up this statement of yours? Real facts - not your opinion please.

Ahh, never mind - no need to post an answer as I know you have none.

rhome, I'm sorry you feel I punched you. I'd like to reverse that injury, so this is a two-parter for you.

I find the OP's didactic posts of discovery annoying because he claims, in his schizophrenic way, to have "proven" something to the world at large that I do not believe was ever in doubt - that personal preference governs which cooking medium rules. Actually his title asserts that he's proven that "electric trumps gas" although does go on to subsequently say that it is nebulous which one trumps which one - again stated (first) by several posters on this thread and by thousands on *other* posts. I tend to have a similar reaction of annoyance when people claim to have "proven" or "discovered" that F=m.a.

That gas cannot be the universal, unassailable superior should be evident by one fact and one fact alone - that of all the cooking media out there, it is the least efficient. Unless the OP has been doing his extensive research in his own mind - much as his contorting reasoning here - I cannot believe he has not stumbled on this. If he was truly searching for the universal leader - as he claims to have been doing - surely any such hunt would eliminate a gas cooktop from contention at realization of this rather indisputable truth. The heat transfer efficiency of an open gas flame is about 35-40%. That of electric is claimed to be 50% while induction is supposedly better than 95%. This data is widely available on this forum. How the OP could "read every post on gas vs. electric" and surmise that the universal consensus was that the most inefficient cooking mechanism could possibly be projected to be superior-most is plum baffling.

Perhaps it is that numerics don't register as well with people. When Jerrod says that he can show that heat rises and that it rises more over his gas stove than over his older ceramics, well, that is an illustration of this relative heat transfer inefficiency.

You stated in a prior post that a huge gas contingent was urging you that way; I find at least equal fervour amongst induction devotees. You mentioned cpovey - a pro chef. He has both gas and induction installed in his kitchen - so how do you all perceive that the universal perception is that gas is the undisputed king? Perhaps people perceive what we want to perceive - i.e. that others are out to mock, belittle and undermine our preferences and thus discount all those other voices lending support to our own point of view. Perhaps that is why you and the OP each feel that there is an element of discovery that personal preference trumps a choral argument - even when the reality is that the chorus is actually singing many different hymns! ;-)

That said, I'd never consider a ceramic cooktop on par with a decent gas one - the thermal transfer efficiency, although almost 33% more than gas, it is not enough to offset its many disadvantages. Not the least, Jerrod and others is this: here is the teapot I like to boil water for tea in. On my gas stove, I turn the flame to something between mid and high on my smaller burner and I have water boiling for about 2+ cups (fairly large) of tea in about 3-7 minutes - have not timed it but it is usually far faster than I was hoping to have to stir to make my tea. The small bottom is excellent for getting ALL the water boiling prodigiously and uniformly - better than my flat bottom kettles which can "whistle" faster. I can not use this kettle on any ceramic top as it has a little footprint although a big undercarriage ;-). (Note for clarity: this is anecdotal, incidental and t-i-c and by no means do I consider it a "proof" of gas's superiority to ceramic cooking).

One last post to rhome only:
The fear lingered, though, and was the basis of my initial disappointment with and panic about my rangetop, and why I shared it on the kitchen forum, and was so grateful for some handholding through an emotional reaction to my doubts, and major adjustments by me and my family to an appliance fairly foreign to us. Thankfully, I wasn't attacked at that time for those negative feelings.

I presume this note about being attacked is directed to me in response to my prediction that you'd go back to an electric.

First off, why would you consider that an attack? Do you really think that I (or anyone) would despise/fear or otherwise attack you for not liking a stove? From your posts, I do sense a note of missing something in your new gas stove, of ruing your selection, and/or of some misgivings about it. My statement spoke to that perception - it was not stated as a pejorative. BTW: When I first picked a stove, for various reasons I disregarded my #1 choice and went with my #2. While it was a great unit, for 2 years I regretted having bypassed my leading contender (mostly 'coz it was not DH's first choice which we didn't get either). Well, after 2 years of regrets, I did go ahead and get my #1 and am now the happier for it. THIS backstory is the reason I made both the prediction as well as offered a nudge to you to go ahead and consider making the switch back to a configuration you'd be more comfortable with.

If you are happy with the new gas stove (or if you will be happy with the new electric) then I will be happy. Like many others, I've walked the remodel path with you for the past many months and really, the truth is that NONE of us really remembers what the other one installed, just whether or not they are contented in their new space. I'd like you to be thrilled about your remodel regardless what you cook or don't cook with. There was no attack levied.

Sorry to prolong this discussion but...

"If gas flames are so hot, why aren't there gas-fired self-cleaning ovens?"

Are self-cleaning gas ovens really that unusual? My old range (just ripped out) was a fairly low-end GE gas range and had a self-cleaning oven. My new range will be a Jenn-Air gas range, and also has a self-cleaning oven.

Some day when I'm rich and famous (I'll settle for just rich!) I'm going to have a kitchen with gas and electric ranges in it. Anybody can use whatever they want. Then we can all sit around a table and argue about which is best pausing only for practical demonstrations. I'll be the one who stays in his chair and eats whatever is prepared.

I will try once more, Mindstorm, because I was trying to calm things down, not stir them up.

Cpovey helped calm my fears about having gas in the house and helped me be more positive about giving gas a chance. For that, as I said, I am GRATEFUL.

I have to repeat that you are misconstruing some of my experiences as complaints. I never claimed any large contingent was 'urging' me to gas (only that I've met quite a number of gas fans who have a particular 'blanket' zeal for all gas over all electric), and certainly am not trying to blame anyone that I made the choice to have it. I never even said I agree with everything the OP concluded, only that I could understand his initial perception, and that his viewpoints/opinions/conclusions could be of interest to others who share his concerns.

Not every value can be measured numerically. I don't spend my day measuring exact temperatures or seconds of difference in types of fuel...Not that performance isn't a high priority, but my appliances impact my life in so many other ways, and those criteria must also be used in forming an opinion and making the best choices. I don't expect our experiences/opinions/decisions to be the same, because of the big differences in our daily lives and households. It doesn't make either of us right or wrong, which was my whole point in writing last night in the first place.

The OP's "proof" (American Heritage Dictionary definition: "The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true") doesn't work for you, but it does for him. We can all give countering evidence or opinion, but if it doesn't 'compel his mind' to a new belief or conclusion, he still holds his original 'proof'. What I didn't get was people getting angry because he wasn't 'seeing the light'...their light. If he was the only one to see things this way and if he was 'wrong,' no one would willingly buy electric ranges.

I hope this helps, because otherwise, it's 3 strikes, and I'm out. :-) Thanks.

FINALLY!!! I've been waiting for mindstorm's mind storm for a while now. LOL!

;)

rhome, I truly do not know what to say ...

You tell me that I am misconstruing your experiences and that there was never a large contingent of gas zealots, just a large number - but presumably a small percentage minority - of such blanket zealots. There is a small minority of zealots for beach thongs! and three pronged forks! There are minorities with zealous likes and zealous dislikes for anything in the world that there is a choice available on. If humans could combust with a different gas than oxygen, you'd have people who HATE oxygen. What is the discussion about if it is a small percentage of people who passionately believe that gas is king? Why dismiss the many more level headed folks? Weren't the gas zealots matched by the induction zealots?

BTW, your early post in response to mine spoke of "a general consensus that 'gas is best' ... period". I don't know if that was supposed to say that it was YOUR surmise or the OP's surmise that such was the "general consensus" but it sounded to me like it was one you shared and that therefore it was indeed a "large contingent of people urging you to gas". Hence such were my responses.

It doesn't make either of us right or wrong, which was my whole point in writing last night in the first place.
As it was mine and about a half a dozen others who preceded both of us.

What I didn't get was people getting angry because he wasn't 'seeing the light'...their light.

Proof that we all see what we want to see. Here's what I see when I look back over the posts: I see an awful lot of people saying "do what works for you", and I see an awful lot of people asking about these UNIVERSAL proofs (he asserts that this thread has contributed some real proofs for the community at large - not his own personal a-ha! moment). Even guadalupe, berryberry, breezy and other high-BTU gas proponents have stated starting really early on that you have to pick what works best for you, that no self-justification is required. ::shrug::

Asolo: Mind if I share that esteemed seat at the confection-ladle table at your kingly abode?

Fenworth, Hmmm, I'm not sure if I should take a bow or slink off into the underground. ;-)

I'm getting whiplash. I think I'm going to go home and stick a very small pan on a very large gas burner ... no wait! large pan on small burner. D'oh!

This is thread is well--- interesting. I just wanted to say that the electric stoves I mentioned in previous posts have all been the old style coil ranges. My mom went from gas, to electric coil, to ceramic cook top, to electric coil. I was too young to use the ceramic cook top and out on my own I had coil,so cheapy electric coil is all I have ever used. I don't know anything about how a ceramic cook top would work.

Well gotta go boil some water for my afternoon tea-- with gas :)

"Some day when I'm rich and famous (I'll settle for just rich!) I'm going to have a kitchen with gas and electric ranges in it. Anybody can use whatever they want. "

Well, you don't need to be rich or famous to get there, but maybe a bit crazy :). And do like we are: a gas cooktop with a single induction hob. Or get a multi-hob and one or two gas burners. Then there is no way you can loose. The cost is a bigger hood and the extra appliance. In a major kitchen remodel, it is probably a 5% hit to the budget.

I said: It doesn't make either of us right or wrong, which was my whole point in writing last night in the first place.
Mindstorm: As it was mine and about a half a dozen others who preceded both of us.

!!EXACTLY!! Which is why I didn't understand why you had such a problem with my post in the first place. Excuse me for saying the same thing one too many times.

For now I'll have to stay with my smooth-top...which works wonderfully for me. My gas friends can bring a can of sterno and set up in the sink. As long as I get to eat, I'm fine.

berryberry

have you been using the gas range again - without the gas actually burning ;-)... there's one benefit to electric - never any fumes to create a cheap high - LOL

you certainly seem to be quite "hyped" up :-)

a set of pros and cons - think of them as criteria, was listed, some things gas had an advantage, and some things electric had an advantage....home environmental factors were among the criteria - which are not among the criteria in restaurants.... the majority of these criteria appear to favour electric - though some people give greater weight to criterias that are more important to them - making gas their better choice..

or perhaps I need to be more simplistic... and you need to stop reading defensively - and start reading for insight - which is they only way you, myself, or anyone, will get any value out of reading anything

think about this....

If electric ovens are soooo much better, then why are they almost entirely absent from any commercial kitchen, but considered du rigeur for the home? Could it be at least in large part "hype"?

Since you are so into "proving" things - why don't you go out and find statistics as to how many high end ranges sold in Europe are gas vs electric/indudction?

The problem with this topic is that the O.P. is being patronizing and condescending from the start. His humor is insulting and his pseudo criteria- 'pro' and 'con' stated as facts are merely his opinion. Only part of what he says makes any sense. I don't think you can get any more simplistic. "More powerful- more gentle" It ain't necessarily so. Then he 'tells' people they need to "start reading for insight" Excuse me?

I don't get this threatening tone about electric vs. gas ovens either. Gas is better for bread crusts and roasts. Some folks prefer wood fired brick for pizzas. Electric is better for dry heat- pastries. Just generalities.. I like to roast my peppers over a gas flame.

rhome - I hope you don't think I was angry in my postings about the OP. Amused - yes. Angry - no. I just find his patronizing style and intent to mislead others wrong. As noted in my very first post on this thread, I said Let me put it this way - no one here has a vested interest in what you choose. Choose what you want. No need to look for self-validation of your decision

People need to choose what is right for them and different people have different needs - but for the OP to persist with this, IN HIS MIND ONLY, great uncovering of heretofor untold facts trying to proclaim he has proven something is indeed quite laughable.

dpkform - There you go again. This time turning to insults and once again refusing to answer the questions posed. I think your act has worn thin and most people have seen that.

Just get what you love. I know everyone wants to get what they think is the best, but I think there is way too much analyzing about the whole decision. I live in the hot, hot south, but have never noticed that my gas stove gives off that much heat. Everthing simmers and boils just fine. I love cooking on it just because I do! I've ordered a duel fuel for my new house. However, I did just fine on my electric stove for 15 years. This forum has been hugely helpful in planning my new kithchen, but it makes me uncomfortable when things start to sound argumentative. This thread seemed to get a little testy!

A lot of the absurd tirades here (mine included) could probably be avoided - if people actually took the time to comprehend what I wrote, especially my initial post.

In my very first post I wrote "electric SEEMS to trump gas". Notice I did NOT write "this PROVES electric trumps gas". I carefully chose to use the word SEEMS, and avoided using the words PROVES, as I was looking for dicussion - not looking to start a "flame" war (hey - that's actually a pun - LOL).

Many of the tirades here go on and on working themselves into a tizzy over the word "proven", and derivatives thereof, ranting and raving about how I have proven nothing, etc, when "proves" is an initial word of THEIR choosing, not MINE.

Now I could choose to be nice to such posts, - but THAT WOULD BE PATRONIZING. I prefer to be condescending - it is far more honest response.

The majority of posters have demonstrated their ability to read and comprehend, and have no problem seeing the value in this thread, and adding value of their own. Many of them do not agree with me on specific points - yet I do not attack them. They actually contribute points of discussion. When they say something constructive that seems to refute a point I have made - I welcome it - it adds real value to the thread. That is not being patronizing.

This thread should have been entitled 'Why I prefer electric to gas in the Bosch range of appliances'.

Far harder to pick a winner if you actually consider all the major brands.