They're not the most expensive models, but they weren't cheap either (they are Frigidaire Affinity front loaders) and they stink....literally!

My clothes smell musty and no matter how much I try to keep the rubber ring in the washer dry (it's just such a pain) and I swear the dryer puts in more wrinkles then it takes out somehow!

I've tried those bleach cleaning tabs in the washer, but they don't seem to do much good either.

Is it just me or just the brand/model I purchased or are others having these same annoying issues?

We've had our He3t/Kenmore front loader for 8 1/2 yrs and there is absolutely no mold, mildew, or musty smell.

I do leave the door open after each load but I haven't bothered to wipe out the gasket or any such thing. No mold, slime or stink.

-Stooxie

Have had 2 sets and loved both. No smell. I credit powdered detergent, no fabric softener and regular hot washes.

Since purchasing these machines, I switched to using powdered detergent, and I also add vinegar for the rinse, and when needed, borax and/or washing soda to the detergent to boost cleaning. I don't use fabric softeners, never liked the strong odor, and don't need them to soften my clothes. When I'm done, I leave the door open to let the machine air out. I have never wiped anything dry. I have taken out the detergent dispenser a few times to clean it, but that's it.

You might want to try running a sanitary or the hottest cycle you can with bleach to kill any mold that the water can reach.

After using the washer, I simply wipe the rubber door seal, remove the soap tray and rinse and leave the door ajar. SERIOUSLY, takes about 15 seconds!!! I have never had one smell, mold or slime issues ever, in any washer!

In regards to wrinkling, Miele dryers reverse tumble from the start of the dry cycle, to the end. Nothing, including sheets and large items have a chance to get tangled and wrinkle. I honestly, maybe iron once a month (or less). Miele dryers leave things fluffy, soft and virtually wrinkle free!!

Also, DO NOT just wash in cold water in any washing machine, especially a front loader. Once a week, do a wash on HOT or SANITIZE with POWDER detergent. It is essential. Good luck!!

One repair in 4.5 years, something like a water inlet or water level sensor...besides that, no problems except for the occasional sock getting stuck in the front part where the water drains out.

Mom and dad have front loaders w/o pedastals, b/c they need the additional counter space the tops of the units provide. It's a slight pain to load and unload while struggling to see into the washer/dryer.

Front-load has been the norm for decades in Europe (where we are from) - I never heard of anyone there having problems with funky odor/mold. When we arrived in the USA 12 years ago, we were first amused to see the primitive washers that Americans were using, then depressed when we found how much less efficient they were - both in terms of cleaning and water/energy use - and how much they beat up clothes.

We were pleased to see FL gain acceptance in the USA as the years went by, and delighted when a move from rented accommodation to our own house enabled us to buy an LG FL washer and dryer.

As others have mentioned, leaving the washer door ajar allows any residual moisture to dry out.

If you do mostly cold water washes with liquid detergent and fabric softener, then leave the doors shut when you're done, you're almost certain to have issues. People who do at least a couple of hot water washes a week with powdered detergent and no fabric softener and then leave the door open for the machine to dry out very very rarely have issues.

No issues, as mentioned above.

Front loaders will clean a load of clothing better than a top loader!
I have seen it with my own eyes.
When I was washing whites in my top loader, my wash clothes had gray blotches because of using liquid bath soap. But after using several washes in my Electrolux Wave Touch the stains came out.

Now with grease stains, I just treat with regular detergent, no rubbing and wait an hour or longer and add borax to the load and the stains washes out in most cases depending on fabric type and cycles used!

As for your washer problems, do what everyone recommends up above and if you have a sanitize cycle, use 3/4-1 cup of citric acid using the longest wash time but reduce your rinse cycle from three to two rinses to reduce water waste and no spin to save electric.

If you do not have Citric Acid, any Oxygen Bleach Detergent which is hard to find and Ammonia should remove this odor.
(DO NOT USE LIQUID BLEACH WITH AMMONIA, THIS COMBINATION WILL GIVE OFF GASES AND KILL YOU!)

Oxygen Bleach and Ammonia is safe used together and will remove musty odor and mold off clothing as well as the machine if used on a regular basis if mold is found in time.

http://www.chemistrystore.com/search.cgi?keywords=Sodium+Percarbonate& Click+to+Search.x=26&Click+to+Search.y=5

1/4-1/2 cup of Sodium Percarbonate with 3/4 Ammonia with one teasoon of your detergent should freshen your machine.

Give one of the three a try!

As for your drying problems, use fabric softener and a lower spin speed on your washer and use medium to low heat for drying and you will see an improvement in less wrinkling. The only clothing that needs high heat is towels, mens underware and cotton sox only. Jeans and colored T-shirts should be dried using medium to low and everything else except delicate is medium. Plus do not overload and fold clothing while are warm.

Sodium Percarbonate is Oxygen Bleach in pure form which can be found at the Chemistrystore.com

The main thing I didn't like about the front loaders was bending over so much but that was resolved when the pedestals went on sale for $99.

My new LG HE toploader has an enormous tub, cleans as well (or better) than my frontloaders did, and is easy to get in and out of (no crouching/bending or pedestal required). I put in a batch of clothes, add detergent, pull the clothes out when they're done, and close the lid. I don't have to wipe out a gasket, leave the door hanging open, rinse out the soap tray, run a load of baking soda and vinegar through it, replace the gasket when it finally gives out (it will), buy a new washer when the motor fails at an alarmingly premature time, bake it cookies, read it bedtime stories, or pray to the Laundry Gods that it won't be possessed by demons of an odoriferous nature. It just washes clothes. Just like the good old days.

I am very glad that I was not tempted to buy front loaders. I never have to dry, wipe, buy special detergents, rinse soap dispensers or baby my machines in any way. Sheesh. What FL owners go through is a prime example of people being slaves to material things. You pay a premium and must treat the object like it's made of glass. Is this really a labor saving device?

This is not to say that I don't love high performance appliances. A year ago, I purchased a top of the line Kitchen Aid three-rack dishwasher. It has been flawless and worth the $1500 price tag.

Must say, though, if shopping today I would have to start over. My German-made machine is already two generations obsolete and I know things have changed.

And no, I don't want to discuss what "I'm" doing wrong LOL.

We leave the door ajar. That's it. It's actually less effort than closing the door. We don't wipe and bleach. We don't have any issues with mold.

As I said in my previous post, TLs are basically non-existent in Europe. People there certainly do not handle their machines with kid gloves.

The (very) few here who have had issues with FL machines are blaming those issues on the fact the machines are FL, as if FL was an intrinsically poor concept. That ignores decades of positive experience with FL almost everywhere else on the planet (I think the US was the last bastion of TL washers).

If you got a dud TL washer, you'd just say "I got a dud washer", but because FL is unfamiliar to you, you assume that the problems you experienced apply to all FL machines. That's not reasonable - even if you don't believe there are hundreds of millions of happy FL users around the world (after all, they're not Americans, so what do they know?), how do you explain the numerous posters to this thread who have experience with both TL and FL, and prefer FL?

US machines adhere to different standards. Standards that are designed to maximize not only regulatory compliance but rebates and rewards. Not maximize cleaning performance. That is true now of a whole array of appliances and fixtures.

And this forum, above all others, is full of partisans for every kind of appliance, who are far too invested in their range or washer or whatever to ever admit they might have made a mistake. That's a known known.

Congratulations! You win the TL longevity on this thread! Isn't it great to have a machine that doesn't have a computer running it? It's amazing to think that with far less technology, America was cranking out washers that were designed to last decades only a generation ago. What has happened to our country? Europeans probably have better machines and or fewer expectations, plus they've doing this for a longer time. They seem to have less money to spend there, so something is out of kilter with the pricing of laundry appliances in our country.

About FLs, even leaving a door open seems inconvenient. But if you're happy with it, certainly I have nothing to say there. To me, FLs are unnecessarity large and showy. They look like little space capsules. Families are getting smaller but machines are getting bigger. Go figure!

The poster who listed 4 or 5 sets of washers/dryers, unless they are gifts or heavily discounted, is spending thousands and thousands of dollars. For what? Remember, when you spend the money it's gone forever. That money represents your time - your life. I'm not advocating that people buy cheap appliances and cross their fingers, but that consumers stop buying things based on glamour or prestige. No stove or pot cooks a meal better. There is no magic machine that makes laundering produce better outcomes. There are far too many factors involved to simply claim that "my machine does it better than any other does." Savvy marketing wants you to believe that these insignificant things really matter. I have really tried to convince myself to want a FL washer and dryer because I want to believe those ads, but alas I cannot part with my money for one.

And, once you get mold, you cannot remove it. Ever. I am loving my new LG 5170 top loader & matching dryer. NEVER going back to FL!

Absolutely untrue. Have no idea where you would get such an idea.

"...once you get mold, you cannot remove it."

That, likewise, would be news to the many who have.

However, glad you now have a machine that you like.

Does anyone have a recommendation for a High Efficiency front load powder detergent (preferably one without too many extra scents and chemicals)?

(Heretofore I've been using Tide liquid HE unscented for cold water washing.)

KitchenAid toploaders are Whirlpool direct-drive/transmission units in a slightly different exterior. IIRC, laundry products came under the KA brand around 1987, and were dropped from the line after Whirlpool bought Maytag in 2006-ish. From approx the early 1990s to the end, KA toploaders typically had 3-speed motors. Coupled with a larger agitator, they usually ran the medium motor speed for high agitation, which made for somewhat gentler action than their Whirlpool (and Kenmore and Roper and Estate) siblings.

Whirlpool is no longer producing machines of this mechanical design (introduced in 1982) except for some coin-op models and lower-end models on the consumer market under the Admiral, Amana, Estate, and Roper brands that likely will be discontinued soon (if not already). However, there are millions of them still in use so parts should be available for some years longer.

When I tried powder, not all of the powder would dissolve.

I don't know why, but my soap compartment always has water in it at the end.

It cleans fine, probably better that my top loader that had an agitator. I don't know what the new ones without the agitator are like. But I can't say that I love it.

And NO you cannot get everything clean in cold water no matter what kind of machine you use. Even our great ancestors figured that one out. LOL

Too many people try to play chemist with their silly homemade soap, avoidance of bleach and using too many unnecessary additives.

The only difference to using a front loader is to use a lesser amount of low sudsing detergent and avoid thick liquids like fabric softener and splashless bleach.

It's a no brainer but people overthink everything and get into trouble.

I now have nice clean, fresh smelling clothes, in a fraction of the time. Even my dirty gardening clothes are coming clean.

The hot water actually goes in hot.

It's interesting how a few of my aquaintances like to talk about how they are so "green" they are with their "green" appliances (that they grumble about), and yet they water a stupid lawn a couple of times a week. Now THAT's a major waste of water, in my opinion. Wanting to be clean is not.

Want to be "green" and save some electricity in the process? Use solar drying power when possible. In other words, put up a clothesline. Can't beat how nice the clothes smell when you bring them in.

If I ever get wind that Speed Queens won't be available at some point in the future I will buy a couple more to stockpile, because I will never go back to a front load or own a top load HE washer.

So this should give you courage to buy whichever pleases you for ancillary reasons, say, convenience or appearance. The general design-type may not be a critical parameter (perhaps -- jury's still out though. But it's certainly a possibility it isn't).

Pretty sure I know to which machine JanJan212 is referring ... Kenmore Calypso. I have the Whirlpool version (identical mechanism and action, different control panel) which I bought used in 2007, refurbished and have been using since Oct 2008. It's the BEST toploader I've ever used (thus far). So there's my opinion. I've never used a frontloader so can't make a comparison there.

Trying to baby my machine through to Memorial Day sales. Thanks.

This product will take all the mustiness and unpleasant odor out of your towels and clothes. AMAZING! It's about $4 and all you need is a capful whenever needed. I have done it twice in a year, but I do leave my door ajar.

When I get new machines for the new house, I will make sure they are front loaders, and have the clean cycle, as well as the sanitary/allergen cycle to kill dust mites.

There are products out on the market now that can clean your Front loader, if you do not have the clean cycle. Check out the laundry aisle in the grocery store. Also, use common sense and air it out!!!

Just to confuse the issue, we had an electrical walk through with our builder who swears by the top loader. A friend of ours in real estate came with his wife and she said she would get a top loader next time. They got a FL a few years ago and while it's okay, she's not thrilled with it. She says that the clothes get really stretched and twisted. I should have asked her what brand it was.

alexr; funny! our washing machine sounds like it's about to take off..(doing smaller, lighter loads to not stress the poor thing while I sort through the myriad of information that's out there.)

FL make up around 40% or less of the market, yet that 40% makes up probably 80+% of the complaints.
That should tell you all you need to know really.

They are more prone to Mildew and premature Bearing Failure.
Can you buy a FL and have no problems with it for 10+ years?

Absolutely!
But the odds are against you.

Before I bought, I was apprehensive about the top loader washer, especially about the very small amount of water it used to wash the clothes.

Well after having them for a couple of years now, I can really tell no difference in the way my clothes come out.
We rarely, if ever, wipe anything on the washer.
We just leave the door open as recommended by folks who have them. No odors, mold or any "bad things", whatsoever
out of the washer or the dryer.

Both appliances are on the optional stands, and that makes it very convenient for loading them.

So Yep, We had the top loader for 35 years, it worked great, but who says, "You can't teach an old dog, new tricks?

Now Nunya is not an Old Dog , so pay him no matter (LOL)!

Gary

I've used that detergent for about 15 years and loved my FL for about 12 of those. Same one, no odor, no bedtime stories. If I remember I leave the door open; this gets remembered about half the time I'd guess. Not the other half. This is not the first generation of HEs, it's the 3rd or 4th. There was a learning curve.

With both machines I mostly used sears powder detergent or Ariel powder and sometimes liquid. I always use softener in most loads that is diluted 50% with water
I have had to clean the drawers On both every few months too. Seems the softeners are to blame for that mess as its always more on the side where that cup is. The Samsung has a super hot cleaning cycle and I use that every few months as well.

I like my front loader and would never go back to traditional top load

However one thing you are stuck with is the inherent design flaw of the pressure on the bearings, the more you use it and the larger the average load the faster they wear out.
FL are notorious for blowing bearings out within 3-7 years.
The "average" life expectancy of a front load machine has always been about 25% less than top loaders.
Even though BOTH have gone down considerably over the past 30 years, a top loader 30 years ago was probably 20+ years life expectancy where as today it is only 14 years. Also and in a way more importantly is the "half life" and repair cost. If your front loader which on average cost more to buy to start with has bearing problems in 3-7 years it would cost about 50-75% of the cost of a new machine to repair it. Whereas the cost for repairing Top Loaders is less on average plus on average cost less to buy also. So a top loader is less likely to need repair within 10 years and if it does is more likely to be WORTH Repairing.

http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=1367&doc_id=236204&dfp PParams=ht_13,industry_consumer,bid_240,aid_236204&dfpLayout=blog

Nunyabiz points out that average life expectancy has gone down. If FL machines are having major problems (requiring replacement) within half as many years as older machines, then you have to buy a machine twice as often. Surely then energy and materials that go into manufacturing should be included in the analysis, but I have not seen them mentioned.

A complaint that I see mentioned again and again is the amount of time is takes to complete a load. If the electricity is running twice as long for the FL as for older machines, how can that be an energy savings?

Furthermore, if we take a holistic view of sustainability, we have to account for the materials included in the washer. The machines are large and look as if they take more steel, but I can't vouch for that. I am certain that they utilize more rare earths and hazardous materials, however, because the cycle and water-level controllers are electronic.

Even if I could be convinced (with clear and complete data) that FL machines save water and energy through their entire life-cycle, I would need to be convinced that they save money for the owner. From what I've read here and elsewhere, between the initial cost, the frequency of repairs, the cost of repairs and the shorter life of FL compared to TL (older ones in particular), the FL machines cost more.

I own a Maytag A606 that is about 40 years old. So far all I've ever had to replace are rubber items that have worn out. And the machine is so transparent, that I've been able to replace them myself. No training or anything. I just opened her up, saw what was leaking, bought the part and put it in. Now that's sustainability.

All this is nothing new to many of you. But I'd like to do something productive, other than rail against "intrusive government". Would anybody be interested in a forum topic such as "guidelines for energy star washers". Those with training in appropriate fields would contribute to a discussion of every factor that should realistically be considered before a washer can be considered energy efficient. The end result would be a report to EPA.

If there is a group outside of Gardenweb that's already working on a similar project, I would like to know about it.

Now ask me if I care about .75cents a month considering a FL would 'most likely" cost far more to buy and to maintain.
and doesn't clean any better.

Wow. You were paying attention to such matters in the mid-1930s?

"Nunyabiz points out that average life expectancy has gone down."

That is a statement that, in the medium run, at least, is true of all major appliances. Materials costs have gone up, and shipping costs from factory to dealer have gone up, so most manufacturers are using lighter gauges of steel, substituting nylon gears for sintered metal gears, etc. Fortunately, modern manufacturing techniques have allowed more precision in parts tolerances, and lubrication technology has advanced as well, so we may see a reverse of the trend, with longer-lived light weight machines. But there is no difference between front-loading washing machines and top-loading washing machines in the rate of change of longevity over the years.

"From what I've read here and elsewhere, between the initial cost, the frequency of repairs, the cost of repairs and the shorter life of FL compared to TL (older ones in particular), the FL machines cost more."

Such allegations are completely unsubstantiated, and quite probably are untrue. No reliable data supports either of the propositions that, (1) as a group, front-loading automatic washing machines, which have been around much longer than top-loading automatic washing machines, have shorter service lives than top-loading automatic washing machines built at the same time, or (2) as a group, front-loading automatic washing machines require more repairs during their service lives than top-loading machines.

http://knoji.com/pros-and-cons-of-front-loading-vs-top-loading-washing -machines/

http://www.allbrandservicenaperville.com/products-washer.html

http://fixitnow.com/wp/2009/10/28/front-loading-washer-corrosion-conta gion-a-menagerie-of-metallic-misery/

http://discussions.consumerreports.org/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=disp lay&webtag=cr-washers&tid=1042

http://www.everydaycheapskate.com/dear-mary/the-front-loader-debate-co ntinues/

=========================================================
""If all of this is not enough, recent studies of consumer-reviews posted across the Internet show a trend of U.S. front-loading washers to have problems with bearing failure usually within the first six years, with the repair costs close to a replacement cost.""
=========================================================

""Uses two bearings per shaft, supported on front and back, as opposed to just one bearing on the back of the tub. This provides greater durability over time and can prevent premature bearing failure which is more likely to occur with a front load design."
=======================================================

the only sideways drum design that I have seen that takes away this flaw is the Staber and it is one of their main selling points is that it takes away the design flaw of regular front loaders.
It is technically a top loader though.

http://www.staber.com/frontloadwashercomparison

Everywhere I look I see nothing but talk about design flaws with front loaders, been this way for decades.
Every repairmen I have ever asked either in person or online all say the same thing.
So to each his own, but personally i wouldn't have a front loader unless it was given to me.

What used to be called idle gossip or old wives' tales -- that is, unsubstantiated rumor, repeated over and over by those who lack knowledge and made "true" by its repetition -- now is called urban legend, and you have provided a textbook example of urban legend.

Neither "fact" matches the owners' reports of frequency of repair on Consumer Reports. The top loaders and front loaders have figures that are almost identical. The most reliable, among front loaders, are the LG and Whirlpool models (tied), followed closely by Frigidaire and Kenmore (tied). The most reliable, among top loaders, are the Roper models, followed by Frigidaire, then Kenmore, GE, and Whirlpool (tied). Maytag does poorly in both front and top loader categories. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=520941

Front-loading washers are mechanically simple compared to top-loaders, with the main motor normally being connected to the drum via a grooved pulley belt and large pulley wheel, without the need for a gearbox, clutch, or crank. ... A commercial washing machine is intended for more frequent use than a consumer washing machine. Durability and functionality is more important than style ... Most laundromat machines are horizontal-axis front-loading models, because of their lower operating costs (notably lower consumption of expensive hot water). ... Most large-scale industrial washers are horizontal-axis machines ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washing_machine

Among the claimants to being the maker of the first true washing machine, Miele, which introduced its washing machine to the market in 1899, is high on the list. For 114 years, Miele has been selling front-loading washing machines. An appliance maker with an unmatched reputation for quality and durability, surely Miele would have noticed by now if for over a century it had been making and selling washing machines with an inherent design flaw and an excellent warranty policy, don't you think?

The first "true" or modern automatic washing machine was the American Bendix, introduced in the mid-1930s; it was a front-loading design. It was an idea whose time had come, obviously, because by the start of World War II, 15,000,000 of them had been sold. Don't you think that, perhaps, if the horizontal axis was a design flaw, some of those millions of buyers might have noticed it? Or, when Bendix introduced its successor model in the early 1950s, that by then it would have seen the error of its ways and offered a top-loader instead? But the new Bendix, like the old one, kept on with the front-loading design.

In our environment, we see appliances with high speed of rotation horizontal axis designs every day: they are called "airplanes," and the drive mechanisms for the propellers (or, in turbojets or turbofan engines, impellers) share a lot in common with the mechanics of front-loading washers. Do you hear a lot of aircraft falling out of the sky because of bearing failures in their engines? Have you ever seen a top-loading airplane? (Well, yes, you have: it's called a "helicopter," and they crash a lot.)

Other than that they are great.

The above comments are so Michele Bachmann intelligence.

The above comments are so Michele Bachmann intelligence.""
=============================================================

ROTFL I was thinking about the same thing, I mean what can you say to such cretinistic acumen?

Plain common sense shows that if you have a drum lying on its side with only one contact point on just one end,(asymmetrical bearing load) then you put several pounds of water and clothing in that drum and spin it with the water and clothes going up to the top then falling to the bottom over and over and always slightly off balance then you have a recipe for bearing failure.

Think of this way, take your car tire/wheel & bearings.
The weight is directly over the bearing where it is supposed to be, (radial) or designed to take the load straight down from the side (thrust) and even then the tire must be balanced really well with those small weights around the wheel rim.
This is how bearings are designed to work, direct pressure straight down top or side.
Now just imagine if you took a wheel rim that was 3 feet deep and put the tire on the outside edge and then didn't balance the tire at all.
The weight is no longer over the top of the bearing it is being forced in a way that the bearing was never designed to function, the pressure would be super hard on the top and pushing sideways on the bottom and off balance.
Those bearings in that car would disintegrate in no time.

This is basically what happens in a Front Loader.

On top of that there are really several designs flaws.
Another blatant design flaw which you can see on every front loader more than 1 year old is if you take the drum out and look at the spider support, every one of them is made of aluminum or pot metal and every one of them is corroded due to the fact that they are in contact with water and most have "Stainless steel drums & Aluminum spiders" this is absolutely ridiculous as this will without question cause "galvanic corrosion" period.
and this corrosion eats away at the areas which are supposed to be sealed to keep water away from bearings.
So you will in a short period of time get the corrosion, which will cause water contact with your bearings.

it is really the stupidest thing I have ever seen, it is if they actually designed it to FAIL.

Top loaders do not suffer this malady.
No water comes in contact with anything like that, bearings are taking the load in a way they were designed to do and short of total tub failure the bearings do not get contaminated with water.

http://fixitnow.com/wp/2009/10/28/front-loading-washer-corrosion-conta gion-a-menagerie-of-metallic-misery/

Your link about corrosion mentions GE, Whirlpool, and Frigidaire. These are brands that traditionally do not have experience building front loaders. I can guess that indeed they might have design flaws...
We have a 20 year old Miele that runs great. No mold, no corrosion, the laundry smells fresh (and not the residual detergent).

Your 20 year old Miele probably has a cast iron or some other decent material for the spider arm.
From what I have seen even Miele has gone to a "aluminium and magnesium" cast material, although I do believe that they at least do coat them with some sort of black paint which certainly has to help.
But of course Miele cost quite a bit more.

There really is zero excuse for any manufacturer using aluminum spider arms connected to a stainless drum though, that is just insane.
Even if they were to add a rubber or plastic washer/plate to separate the two metals you still have the corrosion from the chemicals that will affect aluminum WAY more than stainless.
hell they would be better off probably using thick plastic, like polypropylene or something, rather impervious to chemicals, lighter and with the right catalyst can be very strong.
Then you still have the bearing problem.
I don't think that manufacturers actually care about anything that even resembles quality anymore.

A modern fad holds that everything is opinion, and that an opinion that is shouted loudly enough and repeated often enough becomes "truth." I do not follow that fad; instead, I subscribe to the old-fashioned theorem that there are such things as "facts."

"Front loaders are less reliable"

The fact is that the huge database (somewhat more than 300,000 responses) that is the Consumer Reports frequency of repair survey of washing machines does not support your opinion, and indeed suggests the opposite. Now, the Consumer Reports survey is not a "scientific" survey; the respondents were not randomly selected: they were self-selected. But it has a huge sample size, and that alone gives it very high credibility in my opinion. And a very high percentage of the Consumer Reports respondents -- approaching 100 percent -- were responding based upon each person's own direct experience with a specific washing machine; it is not an anecdotal repetition of a third hand rumor of some person who read something somewhere else that somebody's neighbor's cousin had such and such problem. The person who shouts the loudest and repeats most often the unsubstantiated rumors about front-loading washing machines in these forums proudly proclaims that he has never owned a front-loading washing machine and that he has no experience operating one; I accord his opinions a very low credibility.

I place great credibility in the history of Miele, which has been making perhaps the most highly regarded washing machines in the world for 114 years, front-loading washing machines -- that's a fact -- and continues to believe (as shown by its current model line up) that front-loading technology is superior for washing machines to top-loading technology.

I also stand by my own small sample size anecdotal history: my parents were among the earliest of the 15,000,000 early adopters of front-loading automatic washing machines before World War II (at that time, top-loading automatic washing machines did not exist), and I inherited their original Bendix -- still operating -- in the early 1970s. It never suffered a bearing failure in more than three decades of hard use. We bought our own new washing machine when we got married, a Westinghouse brand front-loader, and that machine served us faithfully through raising the next generation of our family, until we replaced it in 1995. It never suffered a bearing failure, either. Our 1995 replacement washing machine, a Frigidaire branded Electrolux front loader, served us until 2011, when we replaced it with our current Samsung. The Frigidaire never suffered a bearing failure, either.

Did we ever have repairs on those old front loading machines? Yes: the on/off valves on the two water supplies (especially the cold water supply) on the Westinghouse required a couple of service calls. I had to replace (DIY) the door interlock mechanism on the Frigidaire, and to the end, the Frigidaire would shut itself off when we tried to wash tennis shoes in it and a shoe would hit the door when it tumbled. But there were no bearing failures on either machine, and the spiders never gave out in either of those machines.

You undoubtedly have noted that the Frigidaire had a shorter life than the Westinghouse which in turn had a shorter life than the Bendix. Even our small sample illustrated that the durability of these major appliances declined in the six decades from the mid-1930s to the mid-1990s. But where the 1995 Frigidaire was much lighter than the early 1970s Westinghouse it replaced, the current Samsung is heavier than the Frigidaire, so perhaps the trend will reverse; we certainly hope so.

"This is how bearings are designed to work, direct pressure straight down top or side.
Now just imagine if you took a wheel rim that was 3 feet deep and put the tire on the outside edge"

As I have pointed out in an earlier post, the shafts for the propellers of propeller airplanes and for the impellers of turbojet airplanes are designed in exactly the way that you say bearings and NOT designed to work, with horizontal axes and the bearings at one end and a large rotating weight at the other. Yet every day, airplanes take off from New York to Tokyo and complete the round trip from Tokyo to New York the next day, and they often make ten such round trips within a month and go months between servicing. On every trip, the horizontal shafts inside each engine on those airplanes complete many more rotations than the horizontal shafts in any domestic washing machine will complete in their entire service lifetimes, and yet the bearings do not fail. How do you explain such an anomaly, if, as you say, horizontal axis designs with the bearings at one end only are an inherent design flaw and doomed to failure?

The (anonymous) author of the long Wikipedia "Washing Machine" entry disagrees:

"In most top-loading washers, if the motor spins in one direction, the gearbox drives the agitator; if the motor spins the other way, the gearbox locks the agitator and spins the basket and agitator together. Similarly if the pump motor rotates one way it recirculates the sudsy water; in the other direction it pumps water from the machine during the spin cycle. Because they usually incorporate a gearbox, clutch, crank, etc., top-loading washers are mechanically more complex than front loading machines."

""' I subscribe to the old-fashioned theorem that there are such things as "facts."""

Fox news facts maybe.

Oho. Now we are making progress. You have been asserting adamantly that a horizontal axis washing machine is a DESIGN error. Now you suggest that it is a matter of materials only. Progress.

Now, will you accept my anecdotal evidence, or, failing that, Consumers Union's overwhelming statistical evidence, that front-loading washing machines have been manufactured, sold, and used over three quarters of a century without an epidemic of bearing failures? In my family, we have had (serially) three front-load washing machines that have performed, on average, 25 years of service each without a single bearing failure. The frequency of repair records of Consumers Reports suggest that our family's experience is not an anomaly.

"Fox news facts maybe."

Our principal sources of news in writing are the New York Times and (on-line), http://www.earth.columbia.edu/articles/view/1804. For broadcast news, we rely primarily upon National Public Radio and Now with Alex Wagner on MSNBC. So far as I can recall, in the past dozen years, we have not watched or heard a single story on Fox News. Apparently, you are familiar with Fox News: am I missing something?

It is quite possible, in fact probable that the older machines were at least using the correct materials.

BUT in the past 15-20 years like virtually EVERYTHING else manufacturers main agenda is profit and not quality.
Prices of everything have gone up considerably but consumers WAGES have remained stagnant for at least 30+ years.
Thus the average consumer today could not afford a machine made as well as one 30 years ago.
So manufactures main goal is to make whatever appliance as cheaply as mechanically possible in order to stay within that 1970's stagnant wage in a 2013 world.

A front load machine needs to be over engineered, using much more expensive materials and bearings and coatings and seals etc. To just get them to work at all they are already more expensive than a HE Top Loader.
If they designed and built them properly it would cost twice or more what a top loader would.
The only ones that come close are ones like Miele, they cost more for a reason but even they are not that great either.

Because of the inherent flaws with the design of front loaders they must be built using WAY better bearings that should be designed to handle such a odd asymmetrical load bearing, (none are) need to use materials for the spider arm that can handle chemical exposure and galvanic corrosion (none are) and design a seal that doesn't promote mold and mildew growth (none do that I have seen).

IF a manufacturer did these things they would have a good machine built to last but with current material cost that machine would probably have to sell for about double the cost of the very best top loader.

As for fox news "facts" that refers to what they do, which is propaganda, make up opinions and keep saying it over & over until it becomes a fact to their minions that swallow such manure.

Miele is very nice but they don't hold as large a load as the Electrolux models.

Billy

It does not bother you, not one teensy bit, that the overwhelming weight of emperical evidence of front-loading washing machines in actual use over the past eleven decades is not consonant with your often repeated, often vehemently repeated, hypothesis?

> It takes me 2-3 cycles to get clothes clean.

Your machine must be faulty. Do you seriously imagine all the makers of front loaders would still be in business if their machines work as badly as you claim yours does?

If we have something to soak, we use a bucket, or the laundry sink.

Our experience was the opposite - when we moved here from Europe, we were appalled at how bad a job top loaders we encountered did of cleaning relative to the European front loaders we had owned previously. We were delighted when we were able to get a front loader, and we have been very happy with it for the past 4 1/2 years (LG).

I really wanted something that used less water.
I researched for hours, something that would be better
than top-load vis-a-vis water-use, cleaning abilities, use of electricity. I absolutely did my best to find something better. I didn't.

Is it my machine? Perhaps. But since I don't have the money to do a double-blinded "placebo-controlled" test on these machines, what else do I have to go on? Heresay and anecdotal evidence. Which is what this forum is.

I've spent a LOT of money on this thing. It underperforms and does not get my clothes as clean as a basic top-loader. That's all I ask for. Simple and clean.

I'm only telling my experience.

So there you have it. A case study.

You could take the proceeds , which should be considerable since yours is fairly new and can't be used that much, and buy a budget model top loader ??? They aren't that expensive and you might even make $$$ in the trade.

You'll then be much happier since you won't be walking around in soiled and smelly clothes everyday. That's enough to make anyone cranky.

Regarding the merits of FL vs. TL washers, it's so obvious from a technical p.o.v that a FL will clean better with less water (water, not energy is what's saved by a FL) than a TL that it boggles the mind so many would argue otherwise.

The main issue with a FL is that the whole drum is cantilevered and the bearing must withstand more pressure. This is solved by the TL that uses an horizontally-placed drum.

Unlike the FL, a TL machine can't get the gravity help in the washing process and must cover with water all the clothes, i.e. more water and less washing action.

7 years of great, clean clothes that have not been worn out by TL agitation, I have short drying times and great washes all round.
I use persil liquid and 7th generation HE liquid. For delicates, I use Perwool because I love how it smells and it cleans really well with very little. My Bosch Axis has been a workhorse that has performed really, really well.

I would NOT tolerate smelly, musty clothes but it is either your particular FL or you leave your clothes in the washer and do not put them in the dryer right away and probably wait over 2 hours to do so....that is what happens with any clothes left in a washing barrel for too long.

" Posted by homeimprovementmom
BUT if you leave clothes in ANY washer - FL or TL - like overnight, past a few hours - and then dry them or think you can just wear them without them smelling - you are mistaken.
My friend has a TL and she does this all the time and her clothes always smell musty. My sister has a FL and does this all the time and her clothes smell too."

This will depend on how much dirt and bacteria remain after the wash cycle, which will be dependent on chemicals and water temperature which increase the solubility of soiling and kill bacteria directly, turbulence (by tumbling or agitator) and effective dilution by the rinse. If you add bleach(chlorine or oxygen based) in sufficient amounts and use hot water(over 140-150 degrees F), especially with underwear loads you are cutting the bacteria count in your machine way down and contamination of subsequent loads.

"7 years of great, clean clothes that have not been worn out by TL agitation"

Or if you have a TL, you could say your clothes have not been worn out by a FL. Movement of the fibers of clothing in washing is part of the equation in determining how clean your clothes will get, whether it is tumbling or agitation. This can happen over a short time with agitation or a longer time with tumbling. I think this is minor when you consider your daily wear and you also get "wear" from chemicals used in washing and the dryer subjects laundry to heat and abrasion as well. Think about how much lint is in the dryer. Many machines, TL and FL have the ability to adjust the amount of movement you subject your clothing to both in strength and amount of time, by using handwash and gentle cycles so that you can use less agitation or tumbling for less soiled or more delicate clothes. I would use these settings if you are worried about wearing your clothes out no matter what the machine. I have washed very delicate antique linens by a good soak and short "hand wash" in a top load. I have also washed raw fibers like unspun wool that way, which would be ruined by too much agitation.