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Viking D3 warning

Posted by kitmu (My Page) on
Tue, Apr 30, 13 at 12:19

Just finished my umpteenth phone call with the lovely but utterly incompetent customer service reps at Viking and thought I would pass along the problem I am having in hopes of at least saving someone else from running into the same thing.

Turns out when they published their specifications for the dual fuel range---and probably for the other ranges as well---they used dimensions from a prototype, not from the product they actually shipped. As a consequence, they state that the minimum height of the range with the island trim is 35-7/8" when in fact it is more like 37". I installed a large piece of Caesarstone as a backsplash based on these specifications, and now I have a range that will not fit. I do not want a range with a really visible gap in the back where it sticks out from the wall, and the Caesarstone color I used was discontinued, so I am not touching the stone.

After 3 weeks of phone calls and emails, they don't even understand what the problem is. (And, btw, I also had a weird problem w/ my Bosch dishwasher: the controls on the top of the door fell down inside the door panel during installation. One phone call to Bosch and the technician was right out here to fix the problem, which he had never heard of before. It was such a pleasure.)

This may sound cranky, and I'm sorry if it does. I try really, really hard to be reasonable and not to get too crazy about remodel details. I just find Viking's lack of interest in the fact that they screwed up their documentation to be unacceptable. Never mind the fact that they also seem completely uninterested in helping me solve this problem. I did outline the 3 possible outcomes that I could see in both a voicemail and an email, but no one listened to the voicemail or read the email, so that went exactly nowhere.

So, for the rest of you, be forewarned. The specs are wrong and the customer service is non-existent.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Viking D3 warning

What are you looking for Viking customer service to do for you? It doesn't sound like there is anything broken on it.


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RE: Viking D3 warning

Okay, I'm really confused. They say MINIMUM 35 7/8. Well 37 is certainly above the minimum. Also, I'm not sure what gap you're talking about. If you push your range all the way back to the wall, it sounds like your backsplash will extend an inch or so below the top of the range which is not a bad thing. I'm willing to believe that Viking has bad customer service but this doesn't demonstrate it to me.


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RE: Viking D3 warning

are you saying that this range with its legs wheeled all the way in stands 37" above the floor?

-or-

are you saying that when is leveled in your kitchen to your countertop that it is 37" ?

Why not take the trim off and have a custom one fabricated at a height to match what you have space wise?


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RE: Viking D3 warning

Sorry if this is confusing. The specs show the trim on the back of the range as being flush with the sides, as shown in the photo below. In fact, the trim is flush with the top of the burners. The idea of a minimum height means that you should be able to adjust the legs on the range enough to lower it to a specific height. The problem is that it does not go as low as they say it will.

To further complicate things, the backsplash does not come all the way down to the counter because my floor was so sloped that the cabinet installer lowered the cabinets slightly on the range wall and raised them on the opposite wall to try to keep them level. (If he hadn't done that, he would have had to create a really tall toekick on the low side of the room and it would have been weird.) So next to the range, the cabinets are only 35-1/2" tall and the backsplash starts 36" from the floor, so there is already a half inch vertical gap. I can live with that one because it is not really that noticable. But if the range doesn't slide under the slab on the wall, it will leave a horizontal gap as well. Which will be very visible from the seating right next to the range. And which I really don't want.

Since Viking screwed up and shipped a different product from the one described in their specs, I think they should help me modify the trim so that it can be lowered to the minimum height that they told me it could be lowered to.

Clear as mud now, I'm sure!


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RE: Viking D3 warning

Hi xedos, sorry our posts crossed.

I'm saying the first option. In the back the range stands at 37" from the floor with the legs adjusted to their lowest position. (Which also makes the max height of the unit wrong in the schematics as well.)

Dontcha think they should care that it's wrong??


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RE: Viking D3 warning

Is the following accurate?:

"To top of side trim �" 35-7/8” (91.1 cm) min. 37” (94.0 cm) max."


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RE: Viking D3 warning

Yes, eve72, that is in fact correct. Farther down the Specifications page, it also states, under "Additions to Overall Heights": "To top of island trim - add 0" (0.0cm)", which is not correct.

And therein lies the problem.


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RE: Viking D3 warning

Well, I sort of understand your issue now, but I still don't see the problem. Your range will be flush up against the backsplash rather than sliding under it so the "gap" from the back of the range to the wall would not be visible except for the fact that your backsplash does not meet up with your countertop, which personally I would be much more upset about - how are you filling that 1/2" gap - with caulk? In hindsight, you should have had the range on site before templating/installing the countertop and the backsplash. One other suggestion - can you remove the feet from the range entirely to lower it?


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RE: Viking D3 warning

My first thought also was to remove the feet, but that causes the sides of the range to be below the countertop, which both looks bad and is not how it is supposed to be installed. The sides should be proud of the countertop, not below.

I did actually have the unit on site. It was in a tent just outside the kitchen with the rest of the appliances. The island trim had not been installed before it was put in the tent (it was not a new unit; I had been using it for several months with the 6" backguard that came on the range), and it really didn't occur to me that their specs would just be so wrong. I thought that having their documentation would be enough. And it clearly wasn't.


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RE: Viking D3 warning

Well then I agree with xedos that you should have a local metal shop fabricate a new piece of trim for you. I understand your annoyance with Viking's specs but unfortunately specs are often approximate and quite frankly most people put their range flush up against the backsplash - it's somewhat uncommon to slide a range in under a backsplash - what if you need to replace the range at some point - you'd have a similar problem.


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RE: Viking D3 warning

I agree with just about everyone here.

Kitmu - I agree that Viking SHOULD have accurate specs and take better care in manufacturing. But, mistakes happen and this is Viking after all. Lots of flash, not much sizzle. That's why they were just bought on the cheap.

Are you sure the trim piece is installed correctly and cannot be pushed down any more ? You'll get nothing from Viking now, they have your money and have lost you as a customer no matter what so it doesn't make any sense to them to do anything.

Weismann - I agree with you that field verification should have taken place. If kitmu had hired a design firm, this error and assoc. cost would be on them.

Kitmu - get the piece cut down or a new one fabricated at a metal shop - or - drill holes in your floor to "sink" the legs into by 1 1/8" .

If you don't have anything better to do, you might try the dealer that sold you the range to see if they can leverage something with Viking , but don't hold your breath. You might also try contacting Selim Bassoul the CEO if Middleby , which bought Viking and ask if this is how he sees the "new viking" getting off the ground ? He might like to know that his new purchase can't even deliver product that jives with the specifications given to dealers and on their own website.


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RE: Viking D3 warning

Poking through the photos on Viking's website, it appears to me that they made 2 different "Island Caps". There is one that is clearly flush with the side panel and another that is "stubby." What that means in real terms, I do not know.


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RE: Viking D3 warning

Kitmu, I understand your frustration as I had a similar experience with Viking and their incorrect specifications.

We followed the specs to the letter regarding the placement of the gas and electrical connections. When our range arrived and the installers went to push it into the spot, it would not fit against the wall because the electrical plug was in the way! So, the installers collected their $180.00 payment for the installation, left the range sticking out from the wall, and went on their merry way. They agreed to come back again after we moved the electrical ... for an additional $180.00!

I called Viking, just like you did, in frustration, expecting that they would give a rats patootie that their mistake in the specs cost us $180.00. They didn't. I asked if they would be willing to split the cost for the installers to come back out, and they said our problem was an installation issue, not a warranty issue, and we were on our own. Did I really think they would agree to cover any portion of the cost? No, but I did think they would at least be apologetic and maybe agree to report the discrepancy in the specs to someone with the power to do something about correcting them. The attitude I got was, "Oh, well ..."

Bottom line is ... as paying customers, we should be able to rely on the specs provided by the manufactures. And when we call and report that the specs are incorrect, someone in customer service should CARE enough to do something about it. If not for me or Kitmu, how about for future customers? I mean, really, we cared enough to call and report the issue, why are the specs still EXACTLY THE SAME in the literature??? Are we supposed to have all our appliances on sight when we are doing our rough-ins, too? How hard can it be to match up the specs to the actual appliance?

Moving the electrical wasn't a huge deal, but it was a PITA involving multiple steps that included cutting the drywall, moving the box (NOT easy because of the type of box our electrician used), patching the drywall, and re-painting.

My installation issue was only the beginning of my problems with Viking, and frankly, IMHO, if they have a reputation for lousy customer service, it is because it is well deserved. The very best thing about getting rid of my Viking range was knowing that I wouldn't have to deal with their customer service department ever again.

So, to answer your question, Kitmu, yes I DO think they should care that it's wrong. Unfortunately, they don't.


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RE: Viking D3 warning

So well said, jellytoast! The main reason for posting this in the first place was to make sure others didn't get stuck in this position. Why would you ever have a company with high-end items like Viking and provide such bad customer service? I knew they were recently bought (thanks xedos for the new CEO's name) but really is it that hard to respond to a mistake and just correct it? To be straightforward and admit the mistake and pay the pittance (in bottom-line terms for their company) that it would cost to get it fixed? Honestly, I sourced a lot of stuff for this remodel off of the internet, and every website I bought from provided better service than Viking. The website where I bought my vanity sink sent me one w/o a faucet hole drilled in it (oops) and offered to pay whatever it cost for my plumber to do it on site. Ultimately I didn't even ask them to pay it because it wasn't very much and I was so positively disposed toward them because of their willingness to make it right.

In the end it really doesn't cost that much to buy customer good will.


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RE: Viking D3 warning

This is nothing new from them, which is why there are so many negative postings about their products and the consumer experience. One very old and intermittently active thread details dozens of negative experiences. Anyone doing research who took the time to read these threads would not buy Viking but, for better or worse, some of us did so feeling that the bad experiences would not happen to us. And some people do post good, long experience with the brand.

IME, with a former "Viking kitchen," it's been much worse than the installation specs. I stood there while a tech tried to repair my oven using a diagram that did not correspond to what he was seeing in the panel. He called the company and tried to get help with the repair. They acknowledged that the diagram didn't match the actual wiring but were unable to produce anyone to speak to him to correct the issue. I no longer own that oven.

I do still have their refrigerator, which was subject to a recall for a faulty door hinge. No one could be found to do the recall repair.

The one positive thing I can say is that the head of marketing at the time read this forum and contacted me. He personally arranged the fridge repair and was fantastic about replacing my cooktop again (the decals wiped off the control panel so it had been replaced once before while in waranty) and authorized the same tech to fix the vent hood so it would actually draw -- it had never worked properly. (Sadly, he no longer works for the company).

Every Viking appliance in my kitchen required repair or replacement. Currently, there is no one locally who will touch them. With this history, I know it's just a waiting game. The fridge is going on 10. Fortunately, a SZ will fit in the space.

Recently, I received a "last chance" letter from Viking telling me that the fridge door had been recalled and offering to sell me a new fridge at a deep discount if I wanted to replace, rather than repair, it. I thought it was a second recall. Turns out they were using the recall list to sell refrigerators they planned to discontinue. In my state, we call that chutzpah.

I called to verify that my fridge had already been repaired and this wasn't something new. They couldn't answer that question -- though I confirmed it by looking on line. Sigh.

This is an American-owned company that manufactures here. Their styling is lovely. It is such a da*n shame that the quality and service has been so poor. I'm a long-time owner now and all I can say about Viking products is that I wish I'd never bought them.


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RE: Viking D3 warning

This forum has warned people before about this outfit.

Their stuff looks great , but the behind the scenes stuff leaves a lot to be desired. I don't think everything is manufactured in the U.S. anymore.

Designing products to look good is one thing. Manufacturing is a whole different ball game.

Don't you find it a bit curious that this new line is a lot cheaper than the former one? How about the "new" name D3 ? Now consider that the former line wasn't all that great across the board quality wise and this new one is cheaper. Do you really expect the quality of this one to be any good?


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RE: Viking D3 warning

xedos, with all due respect, sometimes it is due to a problem that people find this forum. Many of the posts that I read about Viking (after the fact of my purchase) were years old, and some of the negative reviews are posted by people who don't even own them! Besides, there are horror stories here about every brand. Of course in hindsight we wish we'd chosen a different brand, but I certainly didn't purchase a Viking range EXPECTING it to be poor quality! Quality notwithstanding, it never occured to me that that I couldn't rely on the specs to be accurate. For pete's sake, customers NEED to rely on the specifications to prepare for the installation! I sometimes feel like Viking owners are made to feel like they "got what they deserved" by purchasing Viking.


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RE: Viking D3 warning

Jelly - I get where you are coming form , but this EXEMPLIFIES the issue with Viking, There are plenty of horror stories everywhere and you are correct that no one is perfect all the time.

Viking seems to have a PATTERN of poor quality control and service over the long haul and across different items. People want to believe their purchase will be different because : what are the odds. Sure there are owners out there with perfectly built and operating Viking gear, but a lot of people have issue - and this is my point - if you want to stack the odds in your favor of avoiding an issue DON"T GET CERTAIN BRANDS !

The service issue is another component to keep in mind. Should you need service - how does a company handle it? Even a co. with a great manuf. record will produce a lemon . How does their network from the telephone jockey who takes your call to the parts monkey who replaces your fried DW control panel handle the PROCESS ?

Getting no service AT ALL until climbing up the ladder to the #4 guy on the top of the organizational chart doesn't speak well to me. Especially when the issue is potentially one of life and limb.

This in no way means that the best firms won't have rogue employees or bad days too - IT"S ALL ABOUT PERCENTAGES though.

Re: the drawings. YES, they should be correct. But there is ALWAYS language stating that YOU should VERIFY the accuracy of said drawings with the actual appliance because these things change. Viking is not alone in this regard -all manuf. do this. What is telling is that their website has not been updated even for the electrical issue they've known about. Ditto with the oven schematic for rocco's oven. See the PATTERN yet jelly ?

We did a high rise project years ago, 70 units + / - and 20 had Gaggenau slide out vent units. Between our design of the units, production , delivery / install, ordering and install of appliances - there was a wholesale change to the hood that was not published anywhere. It was only when our installers couldn't fit the units in the custom cabinets that we discovered the problem. Did Gaggenau replace or pay for the units we couldn't use- NOPE ! Didn't pay for our 20 worthless cabinets from Germany either. We ended up using a Miele unit because the it could be used with a slight modification to the cabinets we had.

What I can tell you is the website was updated within two weeks of our discovery. SO, what's the point of that story ? Errors happen, drawings are wrong and the manufacturer will not be responsible. Doesn't mater if they are bottom of the quality chain or the top - or whether you buy a kitchen full of $$$ appliances or an entire skyscraper's worth.

My second point is - You'll have to deal with the solution. It stinks, is not fair, ect... but it's reality.

Lastly, you're right jelly, no one expects poor anything, it's human nature. But I think more people should be LESS SURPRISED when they have problems with things in today's bigger , cheaper, deliver it faster world. Efficiencies just don't keep up so quality suffers.


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RE: Viking D3 warning

xedos, your post makes me sad. Yes, of course I see the pattern, and it is quite disheartening. Many of us post about our problems out of frustration that the people who sold us our goods don't really care. My main frustration lies in the fact that I can remember when we bought things expecting them to be good. Now we buy them expecting the worst and hoping for "acceptable." And it is even more frustrating when mediocre, or even shoddy, is considered acceptable. I do agree that people are LESS SURPRISED when they buy things in "today's bigger, cheaper, and deliver it faster world." But there is nothing cheap about a Viking's price tage and therein lies the surprise ... you didn't get what you paid for.

I still hold to the idea that it should be the manufactures responsibility to get the specs right, regardless of any wording they might use in their disclaimers. Otherwise, what's the point in even printing them at all?


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RE: Viking D3 warning

Kitmu, there may be another problem... You are not supposed to push the D3 under a back splash or counter. The part you are trying to put under your countertop is the vent for the range and oven.

You only mention a D3 range so I'm guessing that it's a RDSCG, RDSCD, or RDSCE. The rear vents for these ranges are what you are trying to put under your counter.
Not a correct install and dangerous.


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RE: Viking D3 warning

Jakvis, what exactly would be the problem? The openings in the vent do not go all the way to the back, so they would not go under the backsplash; that part would just be solid stainless. Is that still a problem??


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RE: Viking D3 warning

Good point, jakvis!


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RE: Viking D3 warning

Posting a shot of what it would look like installed. You can see that the vents do not go underneath the backsplash, but they are pretty close. I really don't want to do anything dangerous, so I would love feedback on what you think.


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RE: Viking D3 warning

The vent holes on your configuration look very similar to how my Viking looked after installation, so it doesn't appear that you'd have a problem with proper venting.


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RE: Viking D3 warning

Kitmu - your stone backplash looks to be approx 3/4 in thick. If you went under the stone you may be blocking the venting. These vents are engineered to move a specific amount of air and ANY blockage / restriction could cause issues with the performance of your range.
The way your photo shows the vent under the backsplash also may cause more than the designed amount of heat to go to the stone and possibly cause it to crack.

Also any installation not following the manufacturers instruction may void your warranty.

1 more thing - you said the backsplash was Caesarstone. It's been reported that some of these manufactured stones don't hold up to high heat very well

This post was edited by jakvis on Wed, May 1, 13 at 21:11


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RE: Viking D3 warning

Kitmu - these guys are right, that vent is not designed to be covered up !
How about removing the splash and lowering it to the countertop and sliding the range in ??? The detail you planed is kinda unconventional anyway: countertop then range then backsplash ??? That and the fact the lone splash sticks off the wall 7/8" - 1 1/4" are the odd men out here design wise.

if the splash came down to the countertop the range's vent / guard would cover all of those intersections and no one will be the wiser. You probably have to lower your hood a bit too or add a trim piece to the cabinet above to make up the 1" +/- the splash will be lowered, but nothing too obvious or difficult.

Door # 3 is to ditch that splash all together and get a 1/2" or 3/4" thick stainless steel backsplash. Could have a warming shelf too.

"But there is nothing cheap about a Viking's price tage and therein lies the surprise ... you didn't get what you paid for. "

Ah.........except this is not Viking, it's D3 , and while peddled by Viking it's their "lower cost" or "more affordable" line.

And, while it it may be more expensive than say a Kenmore it's not the top line stuff that Viking would have you believe. Think of it this way. Stick with the companies that specialize. DOn't get a cheap , lower cost, affordable , ect... priced item from a co. that specializes in luxury or high quality things. Conversely, don't go to the low cost leader , high volume manuf. for that one of a kind or luxury item.

Jelly - yes, it is sad and pitiful, and a shame. But it's the world we live in now. Best to vote with your pocketbook and not your heart or emotions and let the marketplace punish these types. I agree it is the responsibility of manuf. to provide correct info, the REALITY is they will not do that ALL the time and when they are wrong they will take no responsibility for your added expense or unhappiness. It stinks, and you can talk , shout , complain , blog , or write your congressman about it till you expire - they industry is not going to change. It's unfortunate, but it's the way it is.


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RE: Viking D3 warning

Jakvis - Yes, the stone is about 3/4" thick, but the vents do not go underneath it, so they would not be blocked at all. The part of the trim that goes under the splash has no vents on it. The back of the range has to either go under the splash or pushed up against it, so it would be right up against the stone either way, so I'm not sure what the difference is. If it's not touching the stone, do you think there would still be a problem? And after the hideous customer service experience I've had with Viking, I don't expect any warranty service from them regardless of what happens to the range. At this point I expect to be completely on my own if any problems arise.

Xedos - The splash is not movable; it goes all the way up to the ceiling. Attaching a photo. There will be dark brown (to match the cabs) backpainted glass on either side of the Caesarstone, so the Caesarstone won't be out there all alone. It does stand somewhat proud of the glass, but I'm okay with that.

Jelly - Thanks for the photo!


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RE: Viking D3 warning

Is anyone concerned about painted drywall right beneath that vent? I would want to apply a sheet of stainless right to the drywall back there butting up to the top of the backsplash stone and down to the outlets. Or is that unnecessary?


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RE: Viking D3 warning

"Never mind the fact that they also seem completely uninterested in helping me solve this problem." - Why should they? What you want to do appears to be entirely against code, is just bizarre looking as well. I wouldn't want anything to do with it either.


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RE: Viking D3 warning

Kitmu- It doesn't matter that you are not actually covering the vent holes. These vents are designed with a specific air movemet in mind. When you cover any part of the back vent you are changing the air flow dynamics.
This oven had a self clean feature that gets up to around 850F. With your design you will be putting this heat right up the front surface of your stone instead of allowing some fresh air mix to disipate some of the heat. This is a VERY large stone that except for a small area over the oven vent will be room temperature. IF you heat a small area and the rest of the surface is cool it has the potential to crack the stone.
Let's say that you had the right measurements, you never posted your problem and you put it in the way you wanted. Who would you blame when your stone broke? Would you blame Caeserstone for giving you a product with an obvious defect??
Or would you blame Viking for putting too much heat out of their oven and never warning you that you shouldn't put any edge of the vent under the stone??

Ok Viking didn't provide you with the right height specs for the vent. This is really probably a blessing because it prevented you from installing the range in a non-conforming way.

By the way it's my understanding that these are called "Island Trims" because they are really designed to be used with an island install and not against the wall. There may be a good chance that your code inforcement officer won't sign off on your install because even though you have stone you are still not the required 12" away from a combustable surface when using this style trim.( National Fire Code) Many inpectors consider the drywall and the studs as being with-in the No-Zone even when covered with a non-cumbustable surface. Been there and seen it happen.


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RE: Viking D3 warning

If the stone is 3/4" thick then part of that vent will be partially covered if your stove were 35 7/8" tall and pushed back to the wall.

You have two issues here:

1. The Viking stove + trim is not as stated in their literature.

we can talk all day and year about it, but they are going to do zilch for you , and we all feel that is crappy (well maybe not oceangirl) but Viking is a dead end I feel.

2. The detail designed for your backsplash is not that great from the start. That splash should have come down all the way to the countertop, period. This would have given you more options and looked better also. DOn't pay attn. to og as there are no code issues here.

Sure that splash is movable ! Will it be a royal pain in the arse ? You bet. But it's doable.

Will the glass adjacent go all the way to the ceiling ?

At this point , if you don't want to move the splash, or remove it and get another type, your path of least resistance is to get the trim piece to a machine shop for a haircut.
Well, doing nothing is even easier , but you get my point.


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RE: Viking D3 warning

I'd consider removing the stone, having it cut to fit a table or prep cart top so it will be used and tiling the entire wall as part of the backsplash over the range and maybe even down behind it.


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RE: Viking D3 warning

Here is an important part of the D3 install copied and pasted straight from the Clearence and dimensions page of the manual.

Important: This range comes standard
with an Island Trim. There must be a
minimum of 6” (15.2 cm) clearance from
rear of range to a combustible wall.
Clearances from non-combustible
materials are not part of the ANSI Z21.1
scope and are not certified by CSA.
Clearances to non-combustible materials
must be approved by the authority having
jurisdiction.


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RE: Viking D3 warning

It looks like your backsplash is cut too short as it doesn't drop behind the range, am I right?

Also, aren't island trims supposed to be for island installations? Is there a different one for wall installations?


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RE: Viking D3 warning

Yes, there is a different one for installing where your slide-in stove is butted directly up against an unprotected, combustible wall surface. If you want to have an island trim (no backgruard) then you can butt it up against a wall covered in a non-combustible surface: a sheet of stainless steel, ceramic tiles, tempered glass, stone, etc Either that, or you have the range sitting six inches out from the combustible wall surface. Which is what jkavis quoted. . There were a couple of recent threads about this topic with Blue Star ranges if you want to research it further.

This post was edited by JWVideo on Fri, May 3, 13 at 4:23


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Viking D3 discontinued!

I bought a Viking D3 range, dishwasher and refrigerator in May 2013. The dishwasher rusted inside, I cleaned it several times and now needs replacing.
The model has been discontinued (RDDB301SS), as has all the D3 line but replaced with the new "designer" models (DDB325ESS)
But now THAT model has been discontinued too!
Now I will have a dishwasher that does not match in a brand new kitchen.
Terrible products! DO NOT BUY!


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RE: Viking D3 warning

Hi,
I have some additional information which may not be helpful however it will shed some light on the subject. I had the same problem with the D3 of thinking that the vent would be flush with the countertop (for an island) and then being disappointed with the fact that the vent is about 1" higher than the countertop when installed properly. However I had a picture(included from an online seller) where the vent is flush... When I called Viking they informed me that it was a picture of the D2. So I guess those are just the dimensions from the D2 as well.

So there you have it.


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