Doubt anyone but a dog could hear the sound difference between the 2 models. Looks to me like the extra is for the split cutlery tray and drying sensor.

Since you say you saw the integrated model only I'd mention that the two models you cited have the control panel on the outside -- exposed rather than hidden at the top of the door -- just to be sure that's what you expect. Also, they are prefinished, meaning they don't accept a door panel that would match your cabinets, f.ex.

Someone else might have opinion between the 2. Looks to me like major difference is cutlery tray. I went with an Optima and it's just superb. Very happy with it. Majority good reports here too.

Don't have extended waranty on either or ours (our excella is 5 y.o. with no problems and we just got the Optima last summer). But with Miele, if you're going with an extended waranty, I'd go with theirs no other.

Our kitchen was remodeled 3 years ago with new cabinets, granite counters and new appliances. At that time we purchased a GE Profile dishwasher which lasted about 1.5 years and had about 6 service calls, so Lowes gave us an in-store credit that we used for an Electrolux. It was garbage and had it serviced 4 times in 1 month, so Lowes refunded us back. Since then, about 16 months we've had no dishwasher.

I'm aware the two models (G2143SC & G2432SC) are prefinished in Stainless and have the control panel on the front. The reason we are doing that is 1) Because we can no longer get this wood cabinet design and color and 2) The handle on the integrated SCSF sticks out way to far and may interfere with the fridge door when fully opened. The two with the control panels on the front don't have the large handle that sticks out and instead has a hidden grip handle.

The Miele Showroom in Boca Raton, FL has most of the models on display, but the Diamante was not "live" so we could not hear it run. We did try the Optima-II with the hidden controls and wood-cabinet door since it was "live" and could hardly hear it running.

Servicing a Miele requires the use of a laptop with Miele's proprietary software to perform diagnostics (like a car). If you go with a third party service plan, you should make sure their service people have access to and experience with Miele's computer program. If not, I would go with Miele's warranty.

I agree with rococogurl. Both machines are extremely quiet. I had a 43dB Miele in my last house. I traded down a notch to a 46dB model in the current house because I never used all the bells and whistles on the top-of-the-line model. I don't notice any difference in noise. I still have to look at the lights to see if I've turned the machine on. As for the value of the turbidity sensor and the drying sensor, I don't have them, and don't miss them. I don't have the split cutlery tray either, but it might come in handy if you wash tall champagne flutes or other tall glasses. I usually wash really tall glasses in the bottom rack.

I'd say you could skip the extended warranty all together. I've owned three Miele dishwashers and have never had any trouble. The one in the last house was 7 years old when I moved. I'm coming up on 5 years with the current machine. But, if you do think you need the extended warranty, go with the one from Miele. Who knows what sort of repair service you'd get with "Brand X", or if they'll even be around a few years from now.

Can you remove the top silverware tray from the Diamante if you have a lot of tall items? I wasn't clear from the brochure and didn't remember to try it in the store.

over the long haul, warranties are a financial loser. If you feel you must have one to help you sleep better at nite , then purchase one from the manufacturer. Third party ones are a lawyers dream.

Regarding the cutlery tray, the one that comes with the Diamante can come out, but you have to remove the entire tray. The Optima has a split tray, where you can remove either the left or right side independently of each other. So if you have something like a very tall glass in the top basket, you can remove part of the tray above it so there would be more room.

I did try to contact the Bankers Warranty Group of Florida the past two days to find out how their warranty works and who they use in my area to do service for Miele dishwashers. Both times the person had to put me on hold to check with a supervisor, and I was told that once a claim is submitted, that it goes to the claims department and they setup the appointment and decides who comes out to do the servicing. But no one there could tell me who they use in my area. Both days I was told they would "look into it" and call me back....which never happened. So that does not give me any faith in their company.

Because of this, I decided to call the Miele Warranty directly and find out how theirs works. I was told that Miele has their own trained service staff and that they do not contract them out to other third-party warranty companies to use. They informed me independent repair companies can get Miele certified to work on Miele appliances, so they looked up my area and found 2. They said that there's a possibility that Bankers Warranty may use those two, but you'd have to get that info from Bankers....which I wasn't able to do.

So at this point I'm not placing any faith in the Bankers warranty since they can't even tell me who they use for service in my area and can't even call me back. Which leave me with buying the factory Miele warranty within a year of installation.

But I still need to decided as to which model to go with, either the Diamante G2143SC at $1400 or the Optima-II G2432SC at $1700, and which dealer to buy it from. The one dealer closest to me (which sells the Bankers warranty) charges $150 for delivery and installation, and another dealer 10 miles north of here charges $210 for delivery and installation. The 2nd dealer did say that I get the 2-year Miele warranty with their installation, since they use certified installers. I haven't found out yet if the 1st dealer also users certified installers to get the 2-year warranty.

If you're even moderately handy and can read directions, you can do your own dishwasher installation in around an hour. If your not confident enough to do it yourself, I'd recommend the Miele certified installation, which will double your warranty.

I'm pretty sure that you'll conclude you don't need any extended warranty after your machine has been in service for a while. The build and quality of Miele machines is superior and reliable. I currently have Miele appliances in two homes; dishwashers, laundry appliances, a rotary iron, ovens, warming drawers, and vacuum cleaners. I've never had any problems. Miele appliances just work. Several of my appliances are more than ten years old, and work just as well as the day they were delivered. I have every confidence that they'll still be providing reliable service for years to come.

"did try to contact the Bankers Warranty Group of Florida the past two days"

"Both times the person had to put me on hold"

"no one there could tell me who they use in my area."

""look into it" and call me back....which never happened"

WOW . what do you think is gonna happen when you call them to actually fix something? Remember at that point they have to pay out money, SO...... if they aren't even very good at getting you to give them money what do you think is the upside?

If you entertain a lot or have a large household take the "Best", because it has the turbo option (cuts whatever cycle time up to an hour).

If this is not your case the "Diamond" fits yor needs. Can't catch this need to use italian/latin words to market german products *LOL* It's not only Miele, also AEG does it

As for the cutlery tray you can remove it **totally** (meaning also the frame) just by opening the guides as a regular dishwasher rack.

Otherwise, as Fauguy wrote, you can lift away the whole tray (Diamante) or the two split parts (Optima).

But in this case BE CAREFUL : THE TRAY FRAME IS STILL PRESENT !!
In case you load very tall items this mean you have to pull/push the upper rack and the tray frame in the meanwhile, otherwise you can damage for example that very high stemware that protrudes the upper rack

Actually, both the Diamante Plus G2143SC and Optima-II G2432SC have the "Turbo" function on them.

>"I'm aware the two models (G2143SC & G2432SC) are prefinished in Stainless and have the control panel on the front"

Be aware what you're actually looking for are G 2143 SCU and G 2432 SCU

That U means "unterbau"=undercounter. If you miss it, you'll miss the stainless finish and you'll have a machine that needs a custom cabinet door

After what the OP's been through I can see why he'd want to make a very careful and well considered choice. He seems to have the Miele thing down pat -- no small thing and it is maddeningly tough to choose. Both his style #s are fine hidroman.

Hidroman, I haven't seen anything about a "U" in the product code, but I'll ask. I was told the full model # would be G2143SCSS for the Diamante Plus and G2432SCSS for the Optima-II, both Prefinished with front in-door controls and stainless front.

Regarding the choice between the two units, I've talked to a few dealers (including Miele) and the differences are so minor it doesn't really seem worth the extra $300 in price. Every place I've talked to or been to have said both units are almost equally as quite and you'd have to get right next to it to maybe hear a slight difference. The turbidity sensor is good if you run a lot of small loads, so the sensor tell its not too dirty and will run for less time....but our loads are always full by the end of night. The split tray on the top doesn't look like we'd have anything that tall that we'd have to remove it. And the extra drying sensor doesn't make much of a difference, because with rinse-aid and them sitting there overnight, the dishes would be dry the next working. So based on all this, I'm 95% sure I'll go with the Diamante Plus and not the Optima.

As far as the warranty....I got a call this afternoon from that Bankers Warranty Group of Florida (I was shocked). The lady looked in her system and could not find or provide any list of service providers. All she could say was "once a claim is submitted, we have an factory-authorized servicer come out to do the work." But they can't tell me who they use in the area??? Sorry, but that doesn't sound right to me. Because of this, I've decided not to go with the Bankers Warranty and possibly get the 4-year Miele factory warranty before the 1st year is up....but the installation is done by a certified installer, which would extend it from 1 to 2 years regardless.

You're right, sorry. I checked the canadian site, cause it's faster than mieleusa.com : they actually use the U as in the european Undercounter versions of the same models.
Once you say "G 2XXX SCSS" you're sure to get the cutlery tray and the stainless door/control panel

A clue of what I meant, the very same machine in 4 different versions :

G 1143 SC

G 1143 SCU

G 1143 SCi

G 1173 SCVi

the major mechanical different between Diamante G2143 and Optima G2432 model is the spray arm alternation which use different pump design...

that's mean Diamante pump supply water to all 3 arms all the time while Optima alternate water between middle arm and upper + lower arms...

Both unit have turbidity sensor, but Optima get a better one...

so your $300 is actually pay for some other things other than those fancy racks! :)

Somonica, your the first person to say anything about a spray arm alternation and different pump design between the Diamante Plus and Optima-II. Where did you hear this from? I haven't seen it listed in any specs.

Hi fauguy...

I first learn about this from the Miele Australia website...

and than I got my hand on the service manual... ;)

ps: they actually move on to the G1004/G2004 series, but same are true for G1000/G2000 and G1002/G2002 series...

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele Australia Dishwasher brochure

Also on the british website. This G 2343 is a newer (with salt refill in the door) BUT lower model than the optima G 2432, yet it has the Profi Power pump (brushless motor) with load size detection, variable pressure depending on the cycle, and alternating spray action.

check "specifications" and scroll down

Here is a link that might be useful: Brit Miele G 2343 SCi

It's my understanding that the products made for other countries do have a different feature-set than ones made for the US market. Just because a model for the UK or AU might have a feature, doesn't mean the US will. With the $300 price difference in play between the Diamante Plus G2143SC and Optima-II G2432SC, I'm going to go with the Diamante.

That's your money, no need to be mean....

here it is the service manual for North America market and confirmed by my local (real) Miele tech...

Somonica, wasn't trying to sound mean at all. Just was pointing out that similar products in different markets may have different specifications. Such as the ones overseas with the salt container in the door in more models. What exactly is the purpose of having the spray-arms alternate? Is it to concentrate more water pressure into one area at a time?

I ended up ordering the Diamante Plus G2143SC this morning and went on-line at 11am to file for the Florida Energy Star 20% rebate program.
https://www.rebates.com/florida
The site was crashed for almost an hour, but was finally able to register and get a priority number. The rebate amount will be $280 on the Diamante ($1400). Everyone at Miele and the stores (and on here) have said how good it is, so I'm sure I'll be satisfied with the unit. Hopefully I'll get the Diamante in here next week, as I need to serial number from the unit to send in with the rebate form.

Next month is the Microwave replacement, which when out last month after 8 years. That is $400 for a new one...which is one of the reason I didn't want to spend the extra $300 on the Optima.

ok fauguy...

spray-arms alternate does clean better, and can use more water to saturate the load more effectively...

The actual reason is to save water.

Indeed the funny thing about this system (that was first introduced by A.E.G. in late seventies) is that at those times both Miele and Bosch/Siemens claimed their machines had all spray arms working in the meanwhile, as opposed to the AEG Vario Spruehsystem.

Today both B.S.H. and Miele use that very same "Vario Spruehsystem" they have denigrated in the past :)

That's interesting, but even more so is that no one even mentioned the alternating spray arms on any of the Miele models.

fauguy,
I just bought a Diamante plus (not Optima). I could not justify the cost differential for us. Diamante had everything I needed. The only thing it did not have was the delayed start, which I decided was NOT that important since we do not have varying electric rates throughout the day. On my last DW, I rarely used the delayed start. I like having the DW start while I finish cleaning the kitchen. I think they (DW) all last about 10 years. We run ours about 1 to 2 times per day. In 10 years time, I will be ready to have a new DW, and will have fun replacing it with a new fancy DW with other bells and whistles that will become available then. Why not! If you amortize the cost over 10 years, it's only $140 per year. That is a great cost for a DW that works well without hassle!

I am sorry that you had a rough go around with the other DWs.

BTW, 10 years ago, I bought a DW (Asko) for a $1000 and a change. Miele cost about the same because I was trying to decide between Asko and Miele at the time. So accounting for inflation, a "good" DW prices have not really gone up that much.

Kaismom, your point of view makes a great sense : BOL and MOL Miele models cost round the same (sometimes less) than competitors TOL models. Actually one doesn't need all the bells and whistles of a La Perla, that cost twice a regular Miele basic model (that cleans and dryes as well)

Fauguy, here are some interesting vids [thanks to Loreality ;) ]

Siemens (BOSCH) DW alternating spray arms

Miele La Perla while alternating spray arms

AEG Oeko Favorit - Vario Spruehsystem

Kaismom, which model Diamante did you purchase that didn't have the delay start? I guess it must of been an Integrated model like the G2183SCSF or SCVi. The one I purchased was the G2143SC with the controls on the front and with the delay start. I have always liked to use the delay start so the dishwasher will run automatically in the middle of the night. The electric isn't any less, just a preference.

So what do you think about your Diamante so far.
Clean well? Quite? Anything you don't like?

Because of our kitchen design, paneled integrated European model was our only option. I did not want the DW stick out 1/2 inch.

I like the Miele rack layout much better than the Bosch that I rejected after 6 months of use. The cutlery tray makes the flatware much cleaner without pre scrubbing. In the past, we had to soak small egg spoons that we use for soft boiled eggs before putting them in the cultray basket in the Asko and Bosch. The egg spoons seemed to be the worst in terms of what the DW could handle.
IMHO, all three (Asko, Bosch, Miele) are similarly quiet and similarly wash well. It really comes down to rack design and the features that you are willing to pay for. I have not noticed much difference in the washing difference in all three. Since I have had really good quality DW in many years, it is hard for me to say that there is a huge improvement in any of them.
I used 1/2 Finish tabs on the Asko and am using 1/2 tab on Miele. For some reason, I could not do that with Bosch. Bosch seems to need more detergent,ie full tab. When I first got the Bosch, I needed to learn that it needed more detergent....

My old Asko had a heating element, so that is the major difference I see.

We just pulled out the Bosch and installed the Miele ourselves. The Miele has stainless box all around the DW. Even the side panel that will be in the cabinet box is stainless. The other DWs do not have that. There is just the insulation wrap. There are more cheaper looking plastic parts in Bosch when compared to the Miele.

We figured that you pay for the construction quality with Miele and additional features on the Bosch at the same price point.

The Miele Diamante G2143SC is being installed in a day...will report back. The install is being done by "New York Minute" which is certified and increases the factory 1-year warranty to a 2-year. But I still have a year to decided if I want to purchase the Miele extended warranty at $250.

So I got the Miele Diamante Plus G2143SC installed yesterday.
I ran it through two Rinse & Hold cycles first and then did a Pot Scrubber with detergent added so that the inside was clean of any manufacturing residue.

I loaded it up with lunch and dinner dishes and pans that evening and ran it on the Normal program (the Turbo mode was off).
I stayed near the kitchen the entire time and it sounded like it filled with water, pre-washed, drained, filled, pre-washed again (why?), drained, filled, washed (heard detergent door open), drained, filled, rinsed, drained, dried.
Also, during the end rinse (which took about 30 minutes total), the last 15 minutes it sounded louder, like it was using higher water pressure.

The entire time using the Normal cycle from start to end when it drained the final rinse water was 2 hours! The original GE Profile I had 3 years ago took about an hour using Normal, and the Electrolux from 2 years ago was about 1.5 hours. Tonight I going to use Normal again, but also with the Turbo mode turned on and see if there is any difference.

Whenever it starts to fill with water, there is a slight is slight gurgling sound, but it only last for about 5 seconds and then fills pretty quite. During the pre-wash, wash, and rinse, it was very quite while running (more so than the GE and Electrolux I owned). I did hear (at the local Miele showroom) a Optima in use a few weeks ago (it has Q3 noise level) and I think it was a tad bit quieter than this Diamante (Q2 noise level) but not by much.

When we checked it this morning, everything was perfectly clean (dishes, posts, pans, plastic cups (we don't use real glass glasses too often), and silverware. The plastic cups were dry except on a few that concave on the top where there was some water puddle. There was also a plastic storage container that was used to store left-overs. It was clean, but also has some water on the top part. Everything else was dry and spotless.

So with only 1 use down, we're relatively happy with our purchase, and baring any problems down the road, I'd consider buying Miele again.

A few other nice things about the way it's made, unlike most other dishwashers (including the GE and Electrolux we had), is that the exterior has it's own sealed enclosure on the sides and top, where most other brands you can see the fiber-insulation on the sides and top.
This unit was side mounted (due to granite counters). The way it works is there's two screws on each side top and bottom, right before the water-seal. But instead of it drilling into the sides of the cabinet, they instead push a piece of metal onto the side of the cabinet that hold the dishwasher in place. This is nice, as it eliminates any drilling into the wood, but still holds it very firmly.

Last night we did the Normal wash program again, but this time turned the Turbo mode on.
It it a pre-wash, wash, and rinse. Total time (not including drying) was 1 hour 15 minutes.
This is compared to the 2 hours it took the night before to run the Normal program without the Turbo, where it did 2 pre-washes, wash, and rinse.
The wash and rinse times were reduced by using the Turbo mode.

This morning I inspected everything (after using the Normal with Turbo) and the only thing that wasn't removed was some egg that was left on a skillet. But that area was somewhat blocked by another pan, so I'm guessing the water jets we're able to get to that area. But everything else was perfectly clean using the Turbo mode.

I still need to try the other wash programs (pots/pans, express, sanitize) to see how long they go for.

Bankers Warranty Group only uses factory authorized servicers, so the same people will be fixing your dishwasher either way. Why pay more?

Fauguy (or anyone else) ... I'm so curious :

what happens if you run Express + Turbo ? will you have the 12 minute rinse&hold cycle ?

Anyway these 2 hours and that are the same of the european 230 V 2200 W versions, while the 1h 15 min ("automatic/sensor" + turbo, we've no more "normal") euro ones does include drying time

dipique,

Here's the crux of the matter. The Bankers Warranty does say they only use factory authorized service providers, but they can't tell me who they are contracted with to use in my area. Miele says that there is only one 3rd party authorized servicer in my area and gave me their name, but Bankers can't even confirm if they use them or tell me who they do use. Furthermore, Miele says that they have their own internal warranty technicians, so if I were to buy the warranty directly from Miele, it would be their own service people who would do the work, not a 3rd party "authorized service provider".

But I have a year to decided to buy the Miele factory warranty for $250, which is $100 more than the Bankers.
Since the unit was installed by a authorized installer, the standard 1-year warranty is extended to 2-years. But the Miele extended 4-year warranty starts after the 1st year (for a total of 5 years coverage). It would be nice if it started after the 2-year extension, which would give it 6 years of coverage.

So far after using the dishwasher for a week, we haven't had any problems and everything is coming out clean. With each passing day I glad that I purchased it and can tell that it's a quality product.

Last night the dishwasher was fairly empty, so I loaded it up with our standard dishes (not china), bowls, saucers, cups, glasses (not crystal) saucers, silverware, etc, and used the SaniWash program. It started by doing the main wash for about 45 minutes, then 2 rinses (about 20 min each), and then the final rinse (about 30 min). So the total time was about 2 hours, plus the drying.

Everything came out clean this morning and looked good, but couldn't visually tell the difference between using the SaniWash and the Normal or Pots/Pans program, as everything comes out clean. I know with my last dishwashers, the Sanitized Wash would rinse a few times at a real high temp, like 160-180 for 20 minutes to kill any bacteria, so I guess the Miele does the same thing, even though it doesn't explain it much.

Saturday we had some friends take us out to dinner, so all that was loaded in the dishwasher was three dishes, silverware, and a few plastic cups from lunch. So since there was such a small load and no cookware, we ran the Express Wash program. It washed for 10 minutes and then did two quick 5 minute rinses. So in 20 minutes it was done and started the drying cycle. I checked it an hour later and the unit was off and everything was clean and dry, but there was a little bit of a chemical smell in the dishwasher. This is the first time I've smelled it, so I guess the short cycled maybe don't rinse long enough to get rid of any detergent or rinse-aid smell. But like I said it was just a light chemical smell and after a few minutes it went away, but the dishes and cups didn't have any chemical smell.

hidroman,

I have only used the Turbo option with the Normal and Pots/Pans program. In both cases it reduced the standard 2 hour wash/rinse time down to 1 hr 15 min (so about 45 min less overall), but this is NOT including the drying time. The Express program does a 10 min wash and then two 5 min rinses, so that's 20 min total (again not including drying time). I haven't yet tried the Turbo mode with the Express program to see what the run time would be, but I'm interested to see how long it would take.

Ok hidroman,

I tried out the Express Program last night with the Turbo mode turned on. Instead of doing a 10 min wash and two 5 min rinses, it did a 7 min wash an two 4 min rinses. So it took 15 minutes total with the Turbo instead of 20 minutes. The only thing I noticed was that there was more of a detergent smell on the glasses, and when filled with water, I could taste it slightly.

I did not experience this last weekend when I ran the Express Program, but that was without the Turbo mode. So it would appear that the Turbo mode with the Express program probably isn't good to use as it only saves about 5 minutes overall and you can smell and taste the detergent in glasses.

What I've been using most nights is the Normal program or the Pots/Pans program, both the Turbo mode, as that cuts the total run-time down from 2 hours to 1hr 15min and everything still comes out clean (no detergent smells or tastes).

For such a short cycle, is it recommended that less dishwasher detergent be used? I'm wondering if short cycle + full compliment of detergent = less than satisfactory rinse. Fauguy, if you are still listening, did you use less detergent or the normal amount with the Express program?

I too have been contemplating between Diamante and Optima, and will likely choose the Diamante thanks to some information in this post. (I will splurge on a Miele Speed Oven - need to save somewhere!)

Thanks,
Jon

I had a large 120 count of Cascade Action Packs, so those don't let you measure the amount of detergent used, as each pack is the same amount. I guess you could open them up and use less that way, but it would be a bit messy.
I've only got two of them left, so will be going by the Miele store this week to buy their detergent tabs. There are 60 in a box, but each Miele tab has a line in the middle, so you can break it in half to use (which would give 120 loads). The person at the store gave us a couple tabs a while back to try out, and we only used half in the Normal and Pots/Pans cycle, and they worked fine.

So to answer your question.....
When I used the Express Wash with or without the Turbo mode, I also used the pre-measured Cascade Action Packs. When the Turbo mode was off, everything was clean. With the Turbo Mode On, it lowered the total time from 20 min to 15 min, but there was some bubbly detergent left the bottom of the unit. I think this is because there might have been too much to begin with for such a short cycle, as the Cascade packs are all the same size, and that the short wash and rinse cycle didn't have enough time to rinse all the detergent away.
But when using the Normal and Pots/Pans cycle with or without the Turbo, it is fine when using the Cascade packs, as there is enough time for it to wash and rinse away at the end.

Just to add, I've noticed that over the 3 months using the Diamante with the Cascade packs, that a few of my 10-year-old steak knives are starting to wear down around the three rivets on the center (the rivets look like they are breaking apart on the sides), and that my very old cast iron skillet looks like there are now a few rust spots on it. I'm not sure if this is because of the Cascade detergent being too harsh, or because I use the Pots/Pans cycle most of the time since we do a lot of cooking. Once I get the Miele detergent tabs, I'm going to just try the Normal and China/Crystal cycles to see if that cleans my cookware as good.

It is my understanding that cast iron cookware should never be washed in a dishwasher. The very strong detergent removes the seasoning which leads to rusting.

You should also never put good knives in a DW. A few years ago I won a set of hand-forged Tuscan steak knives in a charity raffle. The man from the cutlery store who had donated the knives made me promise never to put them in the DW - in fact, he told me that the manufacturer in Tuscany was reluctant to allow them to be imported in the US because everyone in the US puts their knives into the DW!

Well, we stopped placing the cast iron skillet in the dishwasher last month when we noticed some of the black seasoning had come off and there was some small rust spots.
The knife set wasn't expensive (Tools of the Trade) that we got about 10 years ago. They are stainless steel blades, but the handles are some type of hard black plastic (or resin) with three rivets that go through them. I've noticed the black color of the handles have faded to a lighter black, and the metal around the rivets are cracking. I didn't know they weren't dishwasher safe.

I didn't make it up to the Miele store last week to get the dishwasher tabs, so now that I've ran out of the Cascade action packs, I'm using a small sample of Cascade powder I got in the mail last month. It works OK, everything is still coming out clean, and I'm using the China Chrystal mode so it won't be as harsh on my cutlery as the pots/pans mode.

I bought a small bag of the Cascade bombs and found them to be scary-harsh -- only used them in heavy soil loads for sani or Normal Plus. I use half a Miele tab max for express (turbo or regular). My older d/w doesn't have Express and I really miss it. Use it a lot.

Recently, the online sources for Miele tabs dried up -- no idea why. They now have Somat brand, which I've just ordered. Will compare and report. Since switching over to the Miele/Henkels brands for laundry, d/w and vac I just order from vacuum-direct.com which has me spoiled as it's so convenient.