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Capital Simmer Service Call

Posted by aliris19 (My Page) on
Tue, Mar 6, 12 at 19:51

Sorry for the repeat; I've posted this elsewhere but I don't think anyone noticed it at the end of a long, boring thread:

Hi all -- Permit me to report here some results of a morning get-together with the head engineer at Capital, Joey Kitabayashi, and a service tech (whose name I'm blanking on).

It seems my simmer can definitely be turned lower. Not necessarily at the fine-tuning screw level behind the knobs, but upstream, at the black funnel-shaped air intake valve located underneath the drip pans. A clue to this is that the blue flames coming out of the ports on my burners were "lifting" - they didn't erupt from the burner at the metal, but there was a air gap between ignited flame and metal burner. This was made to go away by adjusting the air mix and *then* the flame was adjustable downward with the little screwdriver.

And guess what: Mr Joey gave me an adorable little long-shank 3/32" slotted screwdriver branded with the Capital logo that fits. How cool is that? ;) (Sorry, I know this is trivial, but I just love that little thing. It's snuggled in a drawer next to my range. It works, it's easy to adjust the flame (they watched me do it), and ... I dont have to trudge out to a sixth hardware store looking for this thing ... except that I do have to go back to the third to return the driver I bought that doesn't work. :( )

Now, Mr Joey and I chatted for many long hours, principally about customer relations. He's working on getting that adorable to screwdriver to anyone who wants it. Mind you, I'm not Capital and I'm not promising, but it's my understanding that they're definitely sitting up straight and about to launch into Remedial Customer Relations 101.

In their defense, among many other interesting things I learned today, is that Capital has received very, very few calls complaining about the simmer. There have been a lot of complaints on here about it. But they aren't getting translated to the folks who need to know and can do something about it.

As a personal matter, I am culpable, doubly in some sense because I happen to live near their factory. They are endearingly desperate to be introduced to problems in their backyard so that they can at least get things perfect here before tackling, say, Maryland. It's a long plane trip to New York, and they've indeed been undertaking service calls that far away.

So that's another interesting point: Capital is a smaller endeavor than some may realize. I tried to make the point to Joey that the size of the operation is measured to we consumers in some sense in terms of reputation of product quality, not, say, gross profit or units produced. But from their point of view, it's just a bunch of guys in a warehouse south of here. They don't have a sales army of distributors to relay customer information to them; they need to hear it from you, personally, on the phone. Joey answers customer service calls sometimes.

On to the substantive issue, the simmer. It is Joey's hope, belief and contention that they can actually adjust all the people's machines with "simmering problems" downward. However, what that means practically, is another matter. Not in terms of doing the adjustment, but what will constitute a good-enough simmer.

He told me and I believe him, that he's committed to trying to work on each and every simmer problem presented to them on a case by case basis. More out there may be remedied in the same manner as my machine's. There may be different solutions as well. I got quite an earful about the myriad parameters affecting gas flow and ultimately temperature. While that machine may be essentially simple, the focusing of its flame is not.

So - back to my service call. They managed to get the temperature way lower and then we set on to "simmer" a panful of canned baked beans. They appeared to simmer lowly very nicely for a while. Most definitely better than had been; possibly enough low that I might not be complaining. With time however the glop did continue to heat up and eventually started to scorch. So I know that this was all very interesting to Mr Joey. In some sense the jury's still a little bit out about whether my machine, then, has achieved a "true simmer"; the definition of that elusive quality has yet to be nailed down.

But at least I believe in the course of my conversation with Joey we were quite agreed that a practical definition is most important, that is one relevant to a home cook, involving home-cooked items and a homecook's needs (e.g., all-day simmering without constant monitoring, no scorching, thick and thin, etc).

He is, BTW, extremely desirous of developing real-life, practical feedback about all of this. He recognizes (now) that boiling water is all well and good for a factory/lab test but that translating results to a more practical milieu matters. I think this is an important step for us CC owners (personally).

What else?...drat; forgot to ask about the cooling fan.

Other interesting tidbits: the convection necessarily draws air around through the middle of the oven's interior cavity, hence the temperature there is necessarily, always lower. They're going to undertake some more, practical, experiments on this in the factory.

Oh yes -- the bottom line is that, as I understand it, Capital believes it quite possible that each and every simmer problem out there can be addressed and improved. Whether it will be improvable enough is still a little unclear. So in the meantime, they are indeed in the process of developing a simmering plate for their machine. How that will be distributed, cost, etc, is entirely unknown as of now.

However, most important was also this information about the actual engineering. The paradigm, if you will, of how the burner varies from low flame to high, is not like, say, turning a light bulb dimmer from low to high. It's more like, um, well -- don't know if this is a good analogy for all, but more like on my stereo's receiver there's a large "volume" dial, and then a smaller "loudness" dial. The loudness kicks in its particular sound spectrum at the lower end of volume; after a certain volume the 'volume' knob takes over.

With these burners it seems there's a main, basically a cylinder like it sounds to me, a car's cylinder. This adjusts the flow of gas on a large scale and affects the blast furnace end of things, the 23K BTU part. Then at the bottom end of things is this adjustment screw that controls the low-end simmering part. It's not particularly related to the gross adjustment. And hence, it is, theoretically, possible to "have it all", a burner that ranges from low-end simmer to blast furnace. Still in discussion, however, is just how low a simmer capability needs to be from a practical, home-cook's standpoint.

And I'm going to have to go in a second here, possibly before conveying all. But let me just say that this bit, the discussion of what is low-enough practically, is something that was made clear to me Capital is very willing to hear from its customers (and potential customers) regarding. They have a website, with contact information on it. I urge sundry to contact them (even if I myself am utterly chicken about doing so).

gotta run, sorry .... more later if it occurs.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Thanks aliris!

Here's one test point from us.

I made a batch of chili today and it stews in an iron pot for a couple hours. I set it on the lowest CC setting and covered the pot.

After an hour or so I opened the lid and it was bubbling at a good rate and here's the temp:

This is fine for chili, but I suspect we might not be able to use our pressure cooker properly (since except when the safety release is triggered, it is more of a closed system than the iron pot with its imperfect lid and as a shiny pot may radiate less than the dark iron pot). I'm going to see if I can get my hands on a good quality one sooner than waiting for all our gear to come from back from storage.

Note that I had already tuned that burner down to just above clicking with the front screw, but did not adjust the air shutter or do other adjustments which might help lower it further. I also tried putting one of our stove cover plates in between as a makeshift 'simmer plate'. It was unlikely to help, and didn't.

We regularly use a pressure cooker and being able to hold it at the appropriate level (including the lower pressure mark) is a very important cooking task for us.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Yowzer.

That's hot! I never took a temperature of mine when it was boiling away, but I can believe it was up there as well.

Please call Joey tomorrow morning, first thing. Or if you contact me offlist I can give you his email. I'm not comfortable posting it publiclly without permission but I imagine it's OK one-on-one.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

We do plan to call, but would really like to have the pressure cooker on hand to make sure if it is adjusted it is adjusted to handle that case. It would be a bummer to get it 'good enough' for now and then still not have it 'good enough' to handle the far more important cooking task to us.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

That's a long way from the touted low simmer of 138. I hope they get a handle on this. I think all this attention is going to result in a positive change for all.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Are we sure that 6 threads on the CC simmer are enough? Perhaps someone should start a 7th thread, to ask.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Sorry, Marcolo-- I was wanting this last to be noticed, and it wasn't being noticed, located as it was at the bottom of an incorrectly-named thread.

Zartemis -- I think low is low; as low as it can get is the point. I don't think you're going to want it above the lowest available point, so even without the pressure cooker, your request will be the same.

I think - and I didn't have a reading before, but I could guess my pre-fiddling temp was around zartemis'. Post fiddling it was about 140 without lid. The thermometer I used is unlikely to be very accurate. After it had been simmering a while a crust formed and that raised the temperature.

I think Joey was convinced this isn't ideal, still. But there's no question it's better, way better. Within range, in fact, in my opinion, of someone claiming this is a "simmer". That term is still not nailed down, not here or anywhere, I don't think. But whereas previously I just didn't really believe folks who were saying they had a fine simmer or I thought they must have some special pipeline to knowledge of how to attain one, I can see that this might be achievable to one and all. That is, I would have thought -- as you've implied, that the disparity between claim and reality was too great to overcome with fiddling. I think it may, in fact, not be.

Call please.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

aliris: That is very good news that your simmer issue seems to be alleviated, at least mostly. It sounds like you are much happier. Hopefully this will translate to others having issues in being able to achieve the necessary adjustment. And, congratulations on the screwdriver!


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little

Oh thank you thank you. Indeed it's the little things in life... ;)

But of course what matters is the big things: getting people to speak with the engineer directly and convey their own, personal experience.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Yes, you are lucky you are within striking distance of the Capital HQ and it is great they gave you such attention. Hopefully your experience/efforts will forge the way ahead for CC owners near and far.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Great news, aliris. Hopefully, the simmer will be more manageable to you now, at least until Capital comes back with something else. Good thing you're in their neck of the woods. Maybe you can be the official GW beta tester.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

That's a long way from the touted low simmer of 138.

Capital claims a true simmer of 145 degrees for the Culinarian.

Human skin burns after 5 seconds at 145 degrees.

"all-day simmering without constant monitoring"

starts to sound a lot like a warming plate.

I will post more once my Culinarian is installed,calibrated,and I am cooking on it every day.

But from my limited cooking experience on the Culinarian and the info I am reading is the Culinarian will "cook" or "simmer" anything you might wish to make and you will need a heat diffuser(one with ridges that allows heat to escape like the Ilse)to achieve warming plate temperatures to fondue all day long.

This is starting to turn into a "how many angles can dance on the head of a pin" debate.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Sorry if I got the temp wrong - took it from the Eurostoves site.

Photobucket

Guess it doesn't really matter what they tout - 138 or 145 - neither seem to be happening.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Excellent fit and finish?


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

"all-day simmering without constant monitoring"

starts to sound a lot like a warming plate.

Take a cooking class.

If you cannot, off the top of your head, think of ten important recipes that require long unsupervised simmering, then you are simply reinforcing the stereotype of the Appliances forum not as a haven for good cooks looking for good tools, but a dank refuging for aging boomers looking for rigid metal substitutes for their sagging pudenda.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Michelle -- I think mine actually is now happening at around 140. I'm really surprised, too. I bought the arguments that inherently, you can't have it all, that a single burner, with all those jets, simply will not get way down there in temperature if it's also going to be up there in the jet-engine 23K BTU realm. But it turns out the controls for these reaches are separate and unrelated.

That said, it may yet be the case that the CC might not yet get down there *enough*. But mine is actually down there in the 138-degree range now I think. And it sure wasn't this morning.

It's a whole nother ballpark -- I put a small pot with milk tea on just now to heat and it heated without incinerating the pot all around it -- it heated too slowly in fact, I had to turn it up. When I held my hand out flat near the top of the pot, which would be about 5 inches above the grate I think, I could keep my hand there for several seconds. Probably not that full 5 seconds, but there were a few beats possible before I had to withdraw my hand. That, I can assure you, I would never have done this morning.

Let me repeat, it's not turning down the simmer adjust on the front that made the difference for me. The bigger-bore adjustment, if you will, needed ratcheting down first.

Whether that's another's problem, I don't know. I had the impression that there could be convergent problems; that another might have a *different* underlying problem from mine. But probably at least a few of the people experiencing "simmer problems" will be helped by adjusting the air mixture of the inflowing gas prior to readjusting the simmer screw. (BTW, I think this is probably something a technician has to do ("kids, don't try this at home"), though I'm not sure; maybe you can be talked through the fix on the phone).

This readjustment of the air mixture resulted in a significantly different appearance of the flame. It appears to leave the metal ring in the middle at a greater angle now. And the blue flame is a much tighter cylinder - this is at higher temperatures I'm talking about now. It also sounds quite different. Kind of more focused.

Another interesting thing I learned regarding the ignitor. I relayed the story presented by I-cant-remember-who regarding their trick of squeezing together the ignitor and metal disk after cleaning. (jscout?) Apparently -- and I'm sure I'll not get this completely right but someone with a better physics understanding than I can correct what I've got wrong -- there's a current across the flames -- geesh I thought I was sort of understanding this but now I don't think I can spit it back out. But something about there being essentially like a circuit across the whole ring of flames from the electricity sparked in the ignitor. Or maybe not from that spark -- there's a current flowing from the ignitor I think, across the flames. When they're all going they're completing the circuit. If the flame closest to the ignitor dies down, the circuit is broken and hence the spark jumps the gap, completing the circuit. Thus if, say, you were to put your hand in the flame not only would you get burned but you'd get a small electrical shock as well, too. So.... don't fiddle with the ignitors -- that's the take-home message I got. It's important not to have too close or too far a gap between ignitor and flame because it will interfere with the current -- in slightly different ways if too close or too far, and I can't now quite work out how. But again, my instinct of staying away from this fiddley part may be advisable.

Anyway, point of all this is not to say 'look how lucky I am' or 'my range is perfect now', but to say 'there is in fact hope that this -- your -- simmer problem can be resolved; it is not a hopeless situation. So call the people who hold the potential solution. That might well not be your local technician, but as Capital tackles these problematic ranges one by one, they'll grow a library of experiences that will help diagnose your particular problem. And they will instruct your local technician in getting to the bottom of it.

Recall, it has taken Capital two tries to get mine down there in the 140-degree range. First time they said all was well but it wasn't. They looked more closely this time.

Also, it bears repeating that I was told they were in the process of developing a simmer plate specifically for this range. It's far from done, but the ball is moving on getting this going. I'm led to believe that could potentially broach that last little distance in achieving an all-day, scorchless simmer.

Mind you this isn't the official word, but I was not prohibited from passing along what I was told, and this simmer plate, it seems, is in the pipeline.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Aliris, I'm glad your simmer issues are resolved (mostly?)! It's making me more hopeful of a good experience with my planned CC.

I'm personally of the belief that a true simmer SHOULD bubble. (Disclaimer: I am not a culinary school graduate. But I have a chemistry degree.) Cooking happens faster at higher temperatures, but does happen at lower temps. But too low and you're just keeping warm, and there are better, safer tools for that. So if you're gently bubbling, then you should be at or close to 212 F. I don't think anyone should feel bad that their simmer doesn't hold 1 oz of water in a 1/2 qt pot at 100 degrees Fahrenheit.

David


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Good morning Aliris. I am very happy that the simmer was able to come down to 140 degrees. I will call Joey this morning and introduce myself. Hopefully we can get the same attention on this side of the Canadian border!

I will have this post ready to show the service tech.



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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Thanks for the caution about "fiddling" with the igniters. That's why I tried to point out that what I was suggesting was nothing more than lining things up and as part of routine maintenance like when you clean the burner caps. I wanted to dispel the perception that it was a workaround or a trick because it is anything but. I may have called it a tip, but never a trick. Everything I suggested is within the natural tolerances and prescribed usage of the appliance. It was also good that you pointed out the electrical considerations. As long as the knob is set to off, which it typically is when putting the burner caps back on, there should be no worries of the electrical charge. But it is worth cautioning because just leaning into the knob could cause sparking.


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@Michelle

@Michelle - Et tu, Michelle? LOL


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

darn it I am 2 degrees off on the simmer, which is now what aliris19 is now getting after the service call.......lol

As I have said all along while the CC might not need a dedicated simmer burner, it would benefit from one for customer piece of mind if nothing else, a goal i will continue to work towards.

I just hope that people who are looking at this and other threads actually get the bottom of this and other recent threads to read that it was fixed by a service call, just a shame it was the second service call :(.

Also people should realize that calling the factory to ask questions or request service about a possible issue might be time well spent, as opposed to posting for a week bad things about ANY range then finding out it fixable.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

@jscout - Let me be clear - I am not bashing the CC. No betrayal at all. I selected a different range based on my needs.

@trevorlawson - I posted your banner because Dee felt the need to call out the 145 measurement. Your banner says 138. I don't really care if it is 145, 138, 220, 221 - whatever. I think the CC is a great range. Didn't work work for us as the primary kitchen tool but I have never bashed the CC or you. I am following the threads to see how Capital addresses the issue as it continues to bubble up every week or so.

I am also still looking for a range for the prep kitchen. While the preference is an induction range (Viking or American), I have not 100% ruled out a CC for that area. Maybe I can have two of the best ranges out there in my new build.

@aliris - I commend you for your diligence in finding a solution that works for you. You are pushing Capital to acknowledge there is an issue and find a fix (adjustment, simmer plate or other) for the other owners who may not be so vocal. Bravo to you!


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Michelle -- I'm not so good about sticking up for myself but doing so for others comes naturally. It's a happy confluence when both intersect!

I can see why, if you're going to have two separate stoves within spitting distance, you'd want one to be qualitatively different. There's also an AGA type stove out there as a different paradigm. Don't know your cooking needs, but I would *love* to have one of those "hearths". Not so fine for southern California though, I think! :)


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

@Michelle - I know, I was just kidding. I, for one, appreciate how much you agonized over your decision.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Aliris said: "I think mine actually is now happening at around 140." Have you actually measured it with a good thermometer? If not you should � I think you will find it is higher.

Trevor said: "darn it I am 2 degrees off on the simmer, which is now what aliris19 is now getting after the service call.......lol" Let�s not jump to conclusions until Aliris actually measures what her temperature actually is at the minimum setting.

I have no doubts that her CC is operating much better after Joey worked on it � but I still am very skeptical of a CC being able to achieve either the Eurostoves 138F or Capitals 145F claim with the current burner/orifice configuration.

One of my burners is adjusted significantly lower than any pictured on any of the "Simmer" threads i.e. only the two inner rings with flame and I can assure you it won�t go as low as 138F or 145F. Last night I cooked a dish with 64 Oz of Clamato juice, 2 pounds of hamburger, a can of beans and some onions and other stuff in a 10" diameter X 3" deep commercial aluminum pan. At the lowest setting I was getting an almost perfect simmer � that being only a few bubbles � but the temperature was an almost constant 199F.

While I can�t get my CC anywhere near the claimed 138f/145F it is doing a fairly good job of simmering what we cook. I still think Capital has more work to do and I applaud them for working on the "Issue". I will repeat it for the umpteenth time - I love my CC and would buy another one if this one died.

My comments here are directed more at "Truth in Advertising" than toward the performance of the CC.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

It is more important that we get a smaller simmer on the CC, i just hope this and other threads achieves that goal. I am 100% sure its doable even more sure its needed to settle this whole issue once and for all to everyone's benefit.

fingers crossed


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Good afternoon everyone

I just got off the phone with Joey. The conversation was very informative for both of us. We discussed the simmer, the way the flame looks, the fan on the oven, the reason why sometimes the oven range door locks, the whoosh when I turn the burner too low. Also he was interested in the types of foods I am trying to simmer and for how long I would want to simmer any given recipe.

He did ask me whether I would prefer a dedicated simmer burner or a simmer plate. For me personally, because of the types of things I cook, pasta sauces, stews, thick soups, I would prefer to have simmer plates. I can then control where I want them, and how many I need at any given time. When I don't need them then I remove them and have 23,000 BTU to sear or wok in any configuration I want. This is important to me if I have more than one person cooking at the same time.

I realize that they are some GWers who would prefer a dedicated burner. I trust they will try to meet everyone's needs somehow. If you feel strongly about having a dedicated simmer then you may want to consider calling the factory and letting them know.

I will follow up when the service technician comes back to adjust my air flow.

It is going to be the Canadian March Break (kids off school) so it will probably not be until after the 23rd of March which is when we are back.

Thank you to everyone on this forum. You are a dedicated group of genuinely helpful individuals with a wealth of information that you are always willing to share. Kudos to you all.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Hi everyone. Sorry I forgot to thank Capital for taking my call, answering all my questions, asking my opinion and trying to ensure that the range will function properly in all CC homes.

Joey said that Capital sets the simmer at the factory but sometimes variables in situ affect the proper functioning of the unit.

I trust my range will be serviced to simmer as best as it can. With this level of customer care I would not hesitate to recommend Capital. The range may not be perfect but my interaction with this individual was.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Aliris--can you please email Joey's email addy to me? I still haven't heard back from Bob at Capital. I might not be in a position to call today given the kids' schedules, but I can fire off an email to Joey when things settle after dark.

Thank you! More later....


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

I totally agree with IceMan. For what it's worth, I don't doubt the CC advertising one bit. Why? Because they probably hit 138 degrees with plain water in a controlled environment at their shop. But as we all know by now, in the real world with food in a pot that 138 is probably just a pipe dream. Practically speaking, with food in the pot, the floor of the simmer is probably 15-30 degrees higher. Still good enough for a simmer, but not the low simmer many are expecting. I think Capital should at least put an asterisk beside the number and note the test somewhere. That way potential customers could at least have some frame of reference.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Aliris, this is excellent news! Congrats!

Davidahn, from a cook's point of view, such low temperatures are necessary. The word "simmer" does mean bubbling slightly, but it has been taken over by the range industry to cover all lower than boiling temperatures (e.g., "simmer burner" "simmer ring" "simmer plate"). Ultra low temperatures are used for melting, bathing, and other tasks, as well as slowly reducing sauces that would break at bubbling temperatures, and similar tasks. Also, foods will cook at warming temperatures, just very slowly for most. Vegetables will scorch at bubbling temperatures.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Well, thanks to all the posters here , all they gotta do is read GW, to gets the "Real Deal"--don'tcha thinks, jscout?

Gary


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

I do, dodge. But life could have been so much easier. :)


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

> totally agree with IceMan. For what it's worth, I don't doubt the CC advertising one bit. Why? Because they probably hit 138 degrees with plain water in a controlled environment at their shop. But as we all know by now, in the real world with food in a pot that 138 is probably just a pipe dream. Practically speaking, with food in the pot, the floor of the simmer is probably 15-30 degrees higher. Still good enough for a simmer, but not the low simmer many are expecting. I think Capital should at least put an asterisk beside the number and note the test somewhere. That way potential customers could at least have some frame of reference.

I agree with this post on all accounts. On a perefctly calibrated lab machine using water it may be possible to get close to their claim. In real world probably closer to 150-160 degrees would be as good as it gets which will be adequate for some not so for others. Still gonna scorch that spaghetti sauce if left to "simmer" unattended for an hour or more. That "to me" is what I always considered a "true" simmer. I guess the real term for that is "low simmer".


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Aliris--Apologies for not getting to this thread sooner with enough time to respond to your great news! I've seen here and elsewhere that you've had good simmering luck today. The photo of your oats makes my mouth water.

Mangiamo--I wish the same good fortune to you up north.

I don't think, IMHO, that we as a collective can push back in our chairs and congratulate ourselves on a job well done. No offense to you, Aliris, but ONE person's simmer has been taken care of and only as a result of two tech visits, one of which was with the HEAD ENGINEER of Capital. I suspect that if Joey hadn't been present at Aliris's second visit, her range still wouldn't be simmering properly. I think the standard "did the best we could" bs would have been tossed out again. The issue still needs to be pushed by all CC owners who feel their simmer is an inferno and by those who are considering a future purchase.

What I do hope, however, is that Joey's visit to Aliris's starts Capital thinking about how the range gets set up in the homeowner's residence (white glove service?) if the thing is that uber particular with install settings. IF this is even the true issue at the heart of all the matter. Maybe a simmer burner still needs to be engineered? Maybe a simmer plate that actually lessens heat? Something else?

I gotta stop posting at the end of the day with only a few hours of sleep under my eyes. I sound grouchy.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

OK, fair enough - or at least, as I'm on the receiving end, I'm happy to accept that my jubilation is not really appropriate.

Let me say this: in my conversation with Joey, his point to me was that (a) he wanted and needed to hear from all owners who experience troubles in order that he can know to fix them. You can't get fixed if you're not on a list for fixing. (b) he especially appreciated hearing from owners in his geographical neighborhood because he needs to accumulate a library of experience of where settings and service calls have gone wrong so as to be able to help pinpoint bad situations from afar.

This tells me they're poised to go the distance with everyone they know about's range. Time will tell of course, but I never heard a single word that suggested otherwise.

How to actually operationalize this commitment may be a different matter.

Also, the point of this ONE simmer resolution is not so much 'look what they have done' as 'look what can be done'. I felt because there were so many complaints about simmering posted and because I had had a visit already and many had opined that achieving better was technically, even theoretically impossible; for these reasons I had thought it was a chimera, this simmer: it was not going to be possible to make good on the advertising claims.

So the extent to which I feel giddy is the extent to which I have been proven - I and my cynicism - wrong. At least this one, supposedly fixed machine actually can, it turns out, be made to go lower. And not by fiddling with the knobs either - it was more complicated than that.

So that's the point. It is not the case that this cannot be done. In at least one instance, with rarefied customer support, it can be. Again, how to operationalize that for everyone far afield is another matter. But at the very least, it is very good to know the whole exercise is not inherently futile.

Because, truthfully, that's what I was thinking: 'Trevor can get his flame down. Jscout can, but they're technical elites - they're representatives of end-member performance'.

But what I think this solitary small success shows is that it is not just a few customers who can hope to see this situation.

That's the point, I think.

And BTW - it's absurd that I'm saying this and not CC. They should step up to the plate and start explaining all of this themselves. They need to be louder in the CS department. I said as much to Joey several, several times. That's a communications matter, as opposed to a technical one. But - but what; I don't know what more to say. Let's keep at it until everyone here is satisfied. I'll advocate as loudly as I can, as loudly as necessary. (I just thought everyone would be sick of my posts on this subject by now!!). There were 16 (73%) people on that survey who expressed dismay with the performance of their simmer. The matter needs resolving for all 16.

BTW - the technician who accompanied Joey (and who had been present at the first visit) makes housecalls across the country.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

@tyguy - I usually don't like to leave my red sauce totally unattended. I always like to give it an occasional stir to blend everything. I think it makes a better sauce. I posted this in the other thread, but if I had to leave it unattended such as working in the yard, I'd throw it in the oven. This has nothing to do with the CC. I did this before my kitchen reno and I'd do it the same way even with the CC. It's just a better technique.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Thank you all for your thorough explanations, and especially Aliris for the play by play. I didn't see your post about Joey before I called Capital and spoke to Ever yesterday. Ever arranged for a service tech to come and apparently they will call me today to schedule a visit today or tomorrow. We will see about that - I am in NYC and have never had a tech visit so promptly.

This is my first service call since getting the range in mid January. I am hoping to get the burners calibrated for simmering and for consistency. I bought the griddle JScout and Billy have and have noticed that the burners on the lowest setting are not matched, so one end is always hotter (haven't bought the surface thermometer yet, need to do that pronto). I also want to have the oven temp and seal checked as I have noticed some inconsistencies there.

My question is - What should I test the simmer with when the tech comes? Would a pot of water be enough? Or as some have mentioned, the boiling water to a simmer test may not be sufficient? Should I have stews, sauces or soups ready?


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

I'd say for something quick that you can save and reuse later, how about a jar of red sauce? If you make your own, then have a small batch ready that you can just bring to heat and simmer.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Elisamama - I think that's really considerate of you to think of how to test things before the service guys come calling! And to think about having something on hand for testing. Hadn't occurred to me, and I sure wish it had!

I propose that folks use Trevor's suggestion of - I think it was Campbells' broccoli and cheese soup, two tins thereof? Someone please correct me if I have this wrong. I've never eaten this stuff and it sounds poisonous to me, but I'm sure it's readily available and consistent. I'm presuming it's thick and this would be helpful for the test?

Other tests are simply that the ignitors aren't clicking of course, on the lowest level. And while you may well have some novel problem, I can tell you what was visible on my range as a problem, obvious once it was pointed out. The little blue flames that come out of the metal ring's holes, should become visible as they are leaving the metal ring. Mine were "lifting", meaning they became visible with a little distance from the metal ring. This was a result of too much or too little (I think too much) air in the fuel. Hmmm... maybe too little; dunno - someone will chime in though I'm sure. Maybe too little air meaning more fuel so when it came time to lower the fuel at the simmer end, there remained too much for burning and it was too hot; it couldn't get lower.

Anyway, this is readily observable. It *sounded* different, too.

You may have some different problem, but this is something to check -- you can check it right now too.

I think we've established testing with water isn't very rigorous. OTOH, it might be interesting comparatively. You could take a pan filled with a set volume of water and see how it boils on simmer; maybe time it although that could be too time-consuming for comparison with when the techs are present. But with this "pre" data you could compare it "post" visit?

I would suggest, personally, calling Joey and asking whether he might be available for a phone consult at the time of visit if necessary. Just a thought...

Actually, now that I think of it when we were discussing the myriad things that can affect gas flow, Joey mentioned folks with water in the gas line in a neighborhood, I think in NYC, that affected things (a municipal problem, or at least one beyond your immediate control). I think it can be tricky to diagnose the problem properly. I would strongly urge a phone call to him if you can manage it (it's possible he's being inundated with calls at the moment!)...

What thermometers do people use? I have a candy thermometer -- is that sufficiently accurate? The one I used the other day was a meat thermometer and I'm pretty sure that isn't. But it may be that something specialized is needed. Certainly it would be nice to know what the "+/-" value is....


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

@Jscout--I am not a Blue Star dealer. Don't be so paranoid, petty. I won't be responding to anymore of your posts so you might as well act in kind.

@CADdidaddy55--you're right (smarmy, condescending tone aside) concerning the simmer adjustment screw, I was thinking about it backwards. Yes, the simmer inside the valve is the limiting factor in the system, not the orifice size, as the simmer is the smaller of the two.

Almost everything you said was right, but let me ask you this: how could you state that Trevor and the Capital engineers reduced the size of the orifice and produced an 8000 BTU burner that had a lower simmer temp? This contradicts what you said me; namely, reducing the size of the orifice has nothing to do with the simmer. By your own accord, a lesser simmer can only be achieved by lessening the simmer hole inside the valve (or put in a very small orifice). Remember, the rate is the rate, so blocking some ports has little or no effect on the overall BTU--only the spread or height of the flames. It doesn't matter if you have 40 or 55 ports the max BTU of the burner, and the simmer, are going to be the same with the same orifice, valve.

You are right about this: the burner on the Culinarian has too many ports to support a simmer with the current valve.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Kist1 - on this thread no one has accused you of being a BS dealer.

But on other threads - many of them - they have.

What, then, accounts for your naked hostility in the face of different evidence? This thread documents how a simmer has been achieved, definition notwithstanding, and how it was achieved on one range by a different avenue; something different from what you are talking about was wrong.

So this vituperative spluttering amounts to a non-sequitor, I think ... I admit that I am having difficulty following the technicalities, though. But it seems like this is just sort of throwing up a Big Lie in case some sort of dirt sticks, somewhere. It amounts not to helpfulness for distressed appliance owners, but vindictive name-bashing.

If I have you wrong, then please accept my apology. Please set us right by dropping a little bit of information about yourself, where you live, what you do do, your interest in all of this. Everyone else on here has, at least somewhere, once, on this forum. Even the most hard-bitten have let drop occasional glimmers into their, um, "essence", if you will. When the record is sterile of any sense of motivation, then it all seems suspicious, especially in light of a possible 'economic-warfare' interpretation.

Thanks for your generosity in allowing a little bit of "where you're coming from" to shine through.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

kist1, I didn't even reply to this thread, but if you read my post completly I also said that Trevor and the engineer plugged the two outside rows of holes. The reason they changed the orifice was to compensate for the smaller amount of fuel in the max open position. The lesser amount of holes provided the lower btu and the lower simmer. The simmer screw still controls the amount of fuel at simmer.
a1iris 19, I don't think jscout ment BS to stand for Bluestar.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

>@tyguy - I usually don't like to leave my red sauce totally unattended.

I wouldn't on a cc either.

> I always like to give it an occasional stir to blend everything. I think it makes a better sauce.

Of course. I think everyone does that for a certain amount of time but then many recipes, (some of which come from amazing old italian cooks) call for simmering on its own for 3 hours or more. What you like to do is irrelevent to what other (in many cases better) cooks like to do. Because this can not be done on a cc doesn't make it a bad tool, I'm simply pointing out that some peoples vision or interpretation of a simmer can not be achieved on a cc, and it never will with the current set up.

> I posted this in the other thread, but if I had to leave it unattended such as working in the yard, I'd throw it in the oven.

An acceptable but cumbersome work around for the cc's shortcomming.

>This has nothing to do with the CC.

It has everything to do with the cc cause one would not be able to do so without risking scortching. For me having the ability to do so is important.

> I did this before my kitchen reno and I'd do it the same way even with the CC. It's just a better technique.

Oh yes your technique of course is the best. There simply could not be a shortcomming to the cc. To say that your technique is "better" without an "IMO" is simply wrong and arrogant (sorry, I really didn't like saying that).


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Thank you for responding, kist1. First off, please accept my apology. I thought I read a post from you somewhere here on GW where you said you were a Bluestar dealer. Perhaps I might have misunderstood your post. But I did mention this and asked to be corrected. You didn't answer though I think you did respond later in the thread. In a separate thread I inferred about your role based on you ignoring me the first time. Again, you ignored that point yet addressed others. Your obviously biased posts against the CC and discouraging posts against Trevor didn't help but at least they were consistent. So is it safe to say you are a Bluestar owner? Most new readers to these threads come here looking for information so they can be educated and make the decision to purchase the right range for themselves. It would only be fair that these new readers know who the players are so that they can decide for themselves. I hope we can move past this and at least have respectful discourse here on the forum. Again, sorry.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Man, if I had one of those Culinarians and simmer was that important to me, I would take that darned burner cap down to a welding shop and have them braze 2 beads around the underside of those two outer rings of gas ports, sealing them permanently. Next, I'd find a smaller orifice (or plug and redrill the existing one to a smaller orifice size) voila, bonafide simmer burner. I would call it the Culinarian Coolrod.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Now I get where Marcolo is coming from in regards to the Appliance forum.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

If the CC cannot properly simmer meat sauce for three hours, unattended except for occasional checking and stirring, then I will exclude it from consideration. I am not going to change my mother's recipe, heat up my kitchen with a hot oven or keep lugging a heavy pot out of it simply because an expensive stove can't perform the way I need it to.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call 2

marcolo, I simmered 5 quarts of Bolognese for 4 hours and 4 quarts of garden vegetable sauce for two hours for Christmas and all they each required was an occasional stir, maybe a couple of times an hour. I was home cooking for the family so I was around the stove. A week later, I combined the leftovers from each and made a chili with it. That simmered for two hours with an occasional stir. On all cases, zero scorching, full stomachs and smiling faces.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Mojavean,

I may try something like that with one of my burners. I thought someone said the proper orifice would be 0.055 with only the inner ring open to make an 8K low simmer burner.

Billy


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

>If the CC cannot properly simmer meat sauce for three hours, unattended except for occasional checking and stirring, then I will exclude it from consideration. I am not going to change my mother's recipe, heat up my kitchen with a hot oven or keep lugging a heavy pot out of it simply because an expensive stove can't perform the way I need it to.

If I had a cc I would do what mojo said. Easy.

>each required was an occasional stir, maybe a couple of times an hour.

Not everyones idea of a true simmer

> I was home cooking for the family so I was around the stove

And if were not? The oven right? Fair enough.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

No, I needed the oven and rotisserie to make the Porchetta.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

"take that darned burner cap down to a welding shop and have them braze 2 beads around the underside of those two outer rings of gas ports, sealing them permanently. Next, I'd find a smaller orifice (or plug and redrill the existing one to a smaller orifice size) voila, bonafide simmer burner."

It's a good plan (one I might have to implement myself if Capital doesn't provide a solution in the next 3 months and we don't go for the BS instead). HOWEVER, THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT DANGER INVOLVED. If the orifice is too large for the burner cap, surplus and potentially explosive air/gas mixture will spill out around the burner cap. There is a risk this could pool in the base of the range top and then explode.

If you do go down this path, start with an orifice that is too small, and enlarge it in tiny increments (invest in a set of "number drills"). Always err on the too small side - you may lose the last few percent of output on full, but it is guaranteed to be safe.

The other question to consider is whether a valve designed for 1,000 - 23,000 BTU/Hr will work nicely with an orifice that is much smaller. You might find that all the adjustment is in the first 1/3 of the valve's travel, which would be tiresome.

All that said, easier options for blocking holes include plugging them with JB Weld epoxy (rated to 500F, which should be plenty), or plugging them with brads (somewhere around 16g would probably do the job).


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

billy g, I saw a posting by Trevor on that and he stated that he thought it was a #55 orifice. That is actually a drill size in this case close .052" but as #s get larger holes get smaller a # 60 for instance is .040" and a #50 is .070"
mojavean, I have thought about purchasing an extra burner cap and doing just that, although cast iron is tricky to weld. Still I would like to play around with the air shutter and simmer screw a little more first. I have it to the point where it is at least ok with a simmer plate now.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Geez you guys are scaring me. We are talking about combustible gas here -- and potentially a lot of it if you screw up. No pun intended.

Hopefully you-all know what you're about. But personally, I'd check in with an engineer first, and even though I don't know you personally, I know enough of you to really, really hope that you take care should you set down this path of personal gerry-rigging. Please don't blow yourself up. More to the point, please don't blow up collateral innocents in the next room or house over...

I know it's a free country, but still...


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

>If you do go down this path, start with an orifice that is too small, and enlarge it in tiny increments (invest in a set of "number drills"). Always err on the too small side - you may lose the last few percent of output on full, but it is guaranteed to be safe

Solid advise.

>although cast iron is tricky to weld.

I think iactually go the jb weld route.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Yikes....I am with Aliris...I would be scared of blowing the place up.

I think I would wait for the 2012 CC Simmer Tour Bus to make it to my town and let Joey and the cross country tech handle the adjustment.

But that's just me - a scared girl around flammable things. I won't even relight the pilot light on my gas fireplace. I called for service.

Please be careful!


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

A lot trickier than just buying a different range.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Billy, you are certainly going to be close with that hole size. My 8K burner orifice is, for some inconvenient reason, not stamped with the gauge size.

The smallest drillbit I have around here is 1/16" (.0625) and it is too big to insert into the orifice for the 8K. I would estimate it at around .050 to .055.

The orifice really comes into play only when the gas valve is fully open. You want the orifice to be small enough to prevent "jetting" at the burner ports which could result in improper mixture and extinguishment of the fire. You would certainly want whatever orifice you chose to allow a blue flame and a good, reliable, ignition every time.

If you decide to do the fix, you might give Trevor or one of the techs at Capital a call to see what size orifices they have used and would recommend. But if they can't talk about it due to lawyer-induced laryngitis then I would start with a 55 gauge, (.052). You can always drill it out if you need a bigger fire. (Assuming you have a bunch of tiny drillbits sitting around.)


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RE: Stove Mods

We are big boys and girls around here. I make bullets and shoot them all of the time, and that includes working up loads of my own design that I then purposely explode in any of several large guns that I own. It is a blast, literally. I make modifications to high powered motorcycles and then ride them all over the country. Dodge (Gary) takes his life in his hands every time he hops in one of those old beasts he drives around in.

A stove is a simple device; an enterprising person can make the simple modifications we are talking about here with little to no risk assuming they understand the interconnecting variables at play. If you are blocking gas ports at the burner, you need to neck down the gas orifice so that you don't end up with too high a volume of gas trying to escape through fewer holes. You do this by changing the orifice and then adjusting the mixture shutters and, finally, the low burner setting on the valve.

Remember, the valve is still there. If something doesn't look right, shut the burner off and fix it.

And if you are not comfortable turning a wrench on your stove, don't! No big deal! But there are some of us on here with both the resourcefulness and technical chops to pull this job off in our sleep.

BTW, Billy, that reminds me, the orifice sizes discussed assume Natural Gas, not LP.


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Sorry for so many posts, but ...

I would think twice about JB Weld, though. It is an epoxy, a resin. It is flammable. It is subject to chemical decomp in a fire. You are putting it just below an active fire, one you purposely intend to be able to walk away from for hours at a time. Yeah, it might work, but why have to worry about it? Metal filling won't burn. Potter's clay won't burn either, if you are looking for something less difficult to use.

Heck, if welding or brazing is too tough, go find some nails with a taper that will wedge tightly in the gas ports, drive them in securely and cut them off with a grinder or Dremel.

Yeah, I would really think twice about JB weld, but that's just me. YMMV. Best of luck!


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Mojavean: I take your advise in this field. Just say NO to jb weld. :)


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

FWIW, the chili in the picture I posted above (this is a meat chili, no beans: chuck, bacon, onions, garlic and multiple types of freshly ground toasted dried chilis (this one was mulato, new mexico, and ancho) never burned or scorched over two and a half hours (or even threatened to do so). It was stirred a couple times, but otherwise unattended. Prior to the long cook, the meat was seared in batches in bacon oil in the pot, and the onions deglazed the result of that searing. Pot is a well-seasoned cast iron. It was cooked covered (lid fully in place) since it did not need to be reduced (I prefer to thicken this chili with pre-hydrated harina at the end for the last 15 minutes/half hour), so the listed temp is higher than it would be for open pot simmering and reducing. So meat stews of this consistency will likely be fine for long cooking in the appropriate pot.

The last bit of cooking was done uncovered, too bad I didn't take a temp.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

You guys are right -- he said a #55, not a .055. Thanks for the reminder.

There are some cements made for high temperature, like for muffler repair. I suspect they may not be epoxies. If that doesn't work I spill roux on them like already did once. That clogs up the ports f'sure!

Billy


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

I don't know if someone addressed this before, but has anyone who has a satisfactory simmer checked to make sure their max BTU is unaffected? Still boiling a gallon of water in 6-7 minutes? (I think those are the figures I've seen on a website that I can't seem to find now comparing various ranges including induction and measuring boil times.)

David


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

David, according the the engineer at Capital, it is not affected. Personally, I have also not noticed any difference. But I haven't tested it, so I have no empirical evidence.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Hi jscout

i'm sorry if this is the wrong forum to ask on but I would really like your porchetta recipe on the rotisserie. Do you use fennel powder and did it require self clean afterwards?

Please, if there is a recipe forum or a better forum for this question, let me know.

tyguy and marcolo, I am one of those old Italian cooks (I don't know how amazing but I seem to please). When I had my conversation with Joey, one of the things we talked about was the long, slow, simmer. He told me out right that the capital simmer was not really set up for simmering past 30-40 minutes and they will have to address what they might be able to suggest for those of us who require simmering for much longer. This is when we started discussing a simmer plate.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

That is extremely important to know, mangiamo, That would make a CC a no-go for me.

BTW porchetta means all kinds of things, different things here than in Italy. You should try our family recipe--dead simple. Get a picnic shoulder and slice through the skin and fat in a harlequin pattern. Rub with S&P, rosemary and fennel powder (I grind my own; I never see it in the store) as well as oil and chopped garlic. Use a sharp knife to make little holes, and lard the meat with the garlic and rub. Pour a bit of white wine and water in the pan (helps with the smoking, makes good juice); pop it into a hot oven and immediately turn it down to whatever low temp you're comfortable with and have time for--no more than around 300. Just leave it in for many hours. You don't want it quite as tender as pulled pork--you should be able to cut it with a sharp knife but still keep it in chunks. This is the only preparation in which pork still tastes like pork to me. Aroma is to die for.

For the Italian recipes I am totally unable to name times, quantities etc. It's the way I learned them.

Sorry for the digression. Back to our programming.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Hi marcolo, that is my recipe almost exactly ( I also use sage). Please reconsider the CC. I have not had my simmer adjusted properly yet. Joey said it was a function how much solid stuff (meat, beans, etc) is in the simmer mixture. When this solid matter achieved a certain internal temperature then the more rapid bubbling would ensue. But this may not mean a vigorous bubbling that wouldn't allow for a properly formed sauce. Let us get our simmers adjusted, do some long slow simmers, and report back. I am happy to prepare any thing that you generally cook, providing you share your recipe with me. I am very happy with the range and would hate to think that our collective simmer issues have caused you to totally rule out the culinarian. I do a lot of pan searing with a finish in the oven and the culinarian has performed beautifully.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Sorry, mangiamo, I don't have a recipe, per se. I cook off the top of my head. But I did not have fennel pollen, so I cheated and used some ground fennel. If you do a search for "jscout zartimis" you should be able to see the CC accessories or something like that thread where I wrote out all the steps I used. There's even a picture of the finished product.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Appreciated, mangiamo. I delayed a kitchen reno two years, and now may be targeting next year for actual work assuming the Mayans were wrong. But I just restarted the planning and budgeting phase so I am a little more focused on cooking tools than I was. So there's still plenty of time for CC to win me back.

I have to say, I do know that no one machine is ever going to be a good fit for me. It's always a compromise. I would prefer a vintage enamel stove with open burners (or maybe induction) that simmers like a dream but boils water fast. Not made. So you have to weigh the pros and cons of everything.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

>tyguy and marcolo, I am one of those old Italian cooks (I don't know how amazing but I seem to please).

Don't know what it is about you ol italian birds, but I think you are born to please the taste buds! :)

>When I had my conversation with Joey, one of the things we talked about was the long, slow, simmer. He told me out right that the capital simmer was not really set up for simmering past 30-40 minutes

Whew!!! A voice of reason!!! And coming from (head?) Engineer to boot.
> and they will have to address what they might be able to suggest for those of us who require simmering for much longer. This is when we started discussing a simmer plate.

I'm 100% positive they will come up with a solution. A specially designed simmer plate maybe?


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Really?? 30-40 minutes?? Didn't they ask any cooks? Or their own mamas? I'm not Italian, but learned to make the meat sauce (what, in the East, they call "gravy") from one...it doesn't even start getting good until it's been simmering 3-4 hours! Matzah balls take at least four hours to get fluffy (I don't believe in the super ball kind). Stock takes 4-5 hours to cook down completely. And that's just the basics!


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Numbers, Numbers and more Numbers.

Disclaimer - I am not an engineer but have been working on, repairing and modifying all things mechanical for a lot of years. I am also a certified welder so working with flammable gasses is second nature to me. My calculations are for academic discussions only � the numbers presented have not been tested or confirmed.

This post will attempt to put some logic to some of the numbers which have been battered about concerning the CC burner and it�s simmer capabilities � or lack thereof. My contention, as well as that of others, has been that Capital needs to design a much smaller "Simmer Burner" or a modification to the existing burner needs to be done to get a low simmer. I have advocated and Trevor has stated that one of the options would be to block the ports in the outer and middle rings. In fact I believe Trevor has stated that one of the Capital engineers came to Eurostoves, blocked the outer and middle rings, changed the orifice to a # 55, adjusted the air shutter and they achieved about an 8K burner. Let�s look at these numbers. For the purpose of this exercise I am assuming all of the ports are essentially equal in diameter and output.

The stock CC burner has 93 ports. 36 in the outer ring, 36 in the middle ring and 21 in the inner ring (I am counting the port nearest the igniter in these figures), uses a #45 orifice (Which measures .0820" in diameter) and puts out 23,000 Btu.

If we were to block the outer and middle rings with only the inner ring open to gas flow we would have .2258064% of the original gas port area. In a linear equation this would mean the inner ring would only have an output of 5,193 Btu (Might be good for simmering). If we take the area of the original #45 orifice (.0820" diameter) and reduce it to .2258064% (The same reduction as the number of ports) and then we calculate the diameter of the orifice necessary to achieve this reduced area I came up with .03896" which is between a # 61 (.0390") and a #62 (.0380"). Therefore if my calculations are not too far off if you block off the outer and middle rings I think you will need to use either a #61 or #62 orifice.

Since Trevor indicated he and the Capital engineer blocked the outer and middle rings and achieved an 8K burner I did some more calculations. It appears that it would take about 32 ports to achieve this 8K rating. But interesting enough my calculations indicates an 8K burner would need an orifice with a diameter of .4835" which is very close to a # 55 which is what Trevor used.

If any of you BS folks actually read this � What is the size of the orifice in you BS 8K burner?

Bottom line for me - IF I were to modify one of my burners by blocking the outer and middle rings I would start with a # 61 orifice and go from there.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

>Really?? 30-40 minutes?? Didn't they ask any cooks?

I'm certain he meant 30-40 minutes unattended, which is fine for some, not for others.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

mojavean, I agree, I wouldn't use JB weld either. I am a gear head like you, and have successfully welded the spyder shafts ia place in a differential, so I am not really worried if I can do it. Getting the tig torch inside would probbably be the issue, but I could blast off the coating from the outside. As this isn't for strength I would probbly use silicon bronze rod as it sticks to just about anything.
aliris 19, something clicked when you mentioned the flames dancing above the ports, so I readjusted the air shutters to get the flame better seated, then re adjusted the simmer. I then brought the 2qt Emeril sauce pan 3/4 full of water up to a boil, then reduced the flame to a simmer and after an hour it was down to 131 deg. Now I have to try it with a sauce without the simmer plate, and then with it. If I really can't maintain a low enough simmer even with the simmer plate for 4-5 hours, then I think I will weld up one of the burners.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Hey Daddy -- good work. I didn't watch as they adjusted the air mixture but wish I had. I imagine that's a matter of loosening screws and rotating the metal plate that sits over the venturi until the jets erupt at the right place and intensity and shape. I'd been thinking, I guess sort of in squealy-girl mode, that I'd leave that to the professionals. Or maybe it's in overpaying-consumer mode. Whatever.

My question: do you also now feel a difference in responsiveness and hear a difference too? It wasn't so dramatic at the time of the fix but when I went to use the range, it is clearly present, this change, somewhere in ones unconscious. I'm wondering if you notice that too?

I am leery of using a thermometer, to tell you the truth - leery about succumbing to the false sense of objectivity the presence of numbers gives. Since at the end of the day the bottom line is how the machine performs practically, in terms of the recipes we want to cook, the numbers will lead to a false sense of security in awareness of the issues and problems. We've seen this already as the engineers define the parameters of testing and overlook -- as plllog so nicely puts it -- their mamas.

Yet of course numbers are relatively comparable, sort of, if they are. Problem is, I don't know the error term on these thermometers, and they're all different and user-differences are likely to be huge as well too. That is, where the probe is inserted relative to the pan, type of pan, size, shape, intensity of flame, etc. Then there's a "boil" - as in when is it? So... I've been reluctant to wade into the false-security-numbers-game.

That said, I am also, it is true, beginning to get a better feel for what these number might mean anyway. Caddi's figure in concert with an explanation of how it got lower like that, has a little meaning in that it sounds like with proper air-mixture tuning and *then* simmer-screw adjustment, the ranges may perform rather similarly. If that's true, then, at last, we could start to pull into the realm where it makes sense to discuss whether the configuration is inherently incapable of providing what a cook might want, that long, slow blending of flavors given by an all-day simmer.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Eurostoves has a video of the air shutter adjustment on its website or on YouTube.

http://capital-culinarian.com/Eurostoves_Capital_Culinarian/Video_1.html

Billy

Here is a link that might be useful: Culinarian Air Shutter Adjustment


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

billy g, watching the video there is too much air going to the burner, notice how the flames lift off the ports. You need to adjust the air shutter to keep the flame tips as sharp as possible while not lifting off the ports, mine were too open. If you close the air shutters too far the inner cones will become fuzzy and yello flame tips will apppear. The correct adjustment is somewhere between.
aliris 19, on the thermometer it is digital with a probe that can be clipped to the edge of the pot without touching the side or bottom. At full boil it read 210 deg. The boiling point of water drops 1 deg.C for every 1000 feet above sea level. I am at 900 ft above sea level so water should boil at 99.1 deg.C or 210.38 deg.F so I think that is pretty accurate, but we'll see what happens when I try a sauce or chile or something next time. As far as responsiveness, what I did notice was that the flame was less likely to go out when rapidly adjusting it. The sauce pan I used is 8.5" in diameter with a thick copper and stainless bottom.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Ooooh -- sorry; ditz-mode -- I absolutely didn't understand that this is what was meant by "air shutter". I was picturing some sort of two-way shuttering valve, not this venturi. Which makes no sense of course.

And .... now I really have to apologize. Because if I hadn't been so defeatest about thinking that just because Capital had been out here it meant the machine must have been adjusted correctly -- if I had watched some of Trevor's videos I would have understood otherwise. What he shows and explains in the video referenced above is exactly what was wrong with my stove. It wasn't as bad as the worst case scenario he depicts, but the first one, where it looks good, kinda, if you don't know better -- that was mine.

Course, it is true that Capital's guys left it that way ...

Actually, looking carefully at Trevor's example of a perfect flame seems a little off to me. I see some of that "lifting" of the flame up off the burner on some of the jets. Whatever -- could be that with time the burners get gunky and you can't sustain a perfect jet on every single one of them, or maybe the gas mixture isn't even, maybe the gas comes from the "company" - or wherever it comes from - with impurities.

This is so much more than I ever wanted to think about...

OTOH, it's my 4K, so it's probably worth it to invest a couple grey cells to better understand how and what makes it work well and how to keep it that way.

I'm not one to watch videos, but it seems Trevor's helpful videos are worth watching, others who may not yet have bit the bullet to do so.

I guess ... I don't really know how to find these videos. If there is already, I don't see where this is a folder's worth of technical videos. You should be able to click on a Capital section which has a box for "technical videos" or some-such and then you click and see an array of the available videos that will help you tune and understand the thing. It's probably all there, I just don't see it. Others are forever giving links; I can't find the videos to browse them. Pointers appreciated....


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

I'm going to re-adjust my range this weekend too. It think it would be worthwhile for us CC owners to at least be on the same or similar page so we can all compare notes.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

jscout, I'm thinking about re-adjusting mine too. I also may experiment with a burner modification.

Caddi-daddy-o, I think you're right about the adjustment in the video. Should the air shutter adjustment be made with the gas cranked all the way up?

Billy


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call-Putty

I may use muffler and tailpipe putty to fill the holes -- good up to 2000 degrees (hotter than the Bluestar gets and almost as hot as the CC). Oops, there goes a flame war.

Billy

Here is a link that might be useful: High Temerature Putty


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

billy g,
Caddi-daddy-o, I think you're right about the adjustment in the video. Should the air shutter adjustment be made with the gas cranked all the way up? --yup
2000 deg. ay...better not use any aluminum cookware there.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

"Should the air shutter adjustment be made with the gas cranked all the way up?"

Start at full gas, then check at low gas. As others have said, the goal is for the flames to appear to be attached to the ports, but without yellow tips. If you needed to adjust at low gas, check again at full gas. Check the effects of different-sized pans. Adjust the simmer setting and check again. Rinse and repeat to find the happy medium. Check again when the weather is different, because air pressure and density varies from one day to another.

If you can't get it "just so" at both ends of the scale, your jet is the wrong size (not likely at 900', but very likely at much higher elevations).

If this all sounds like a lot of work, you have understood why BS went with different-sized burners. IOW, it's the price you pay for wanting a single simple burner to be "all things to all men".

The ideal solution is a stacked burner with two-stage valves. But that would be a difficult and expensive thing to provide, especially x6


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Just watched that video. You can see the burner orifices themselves and they look easy to get to and swap. And though I can't be certain, I think I recognize them:

If I am correct, the orifices are the Garland small hood style affairs, just like the Bluestar, only easier to get to and replace.

Here is a link to a #55 replacement orifice.

You can get other sizes by doing a search on Google for "Garland M8-XX" where the XX is the orifice drill size you are looking for.

Well, if anybody wants to do a temporary test to see how a modified burner arrangement would work, get some pottery clay. (this will be a temporary fix for testing purposes) Use the clay to block the outer two rings of the burner cap, install the smaller orifice and see if it will work through the full range of valve adjustment. If you see jetting on high, or flame extinguishment on high, then the orifice you selected is too big.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Re: the suitability (or otherwise) of JB Weld for this purpose, to those of you who have a CC and an infrared thermometer, please try running a burner on full for 15 minutes under a large pan, then turn the burner off and immediately check its temperature with the IR gun. My guess is 350F, tops, but that number really is plucked out of my nether regions.

As much as others here doubt the suitability of JB Weld, I really don't like the idea of any sealing technique that requires making the burner cap red hot - I think the finish will be marred and the cap may even warp. If the cap temperature is too near to JB Weld's 500F limit, I'd be looking for a mechanical plug solution (small brads tapped into the holes).


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Spicy food?

"My guess is 350F, tops, but that number really is plucked out of my nether regions."

Reading that back, I decided to be the first person to mention Mexican food... :)


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Surely I am not the only person to remember way back 2 or so years ago reading with anticipation about the coming Culinarian and one feature under discussion then was a single ring simmer, a double ring mid-power,and of course the triple ring high power burners if I remember correctly. Since some are now talking of sealing up a ring of ports by way of muffler cement or nails or welding, Capital needs to consider offering a lower output optional burner to those who prepare foods requiring a lower heat simmer since these ranges are intended not just for those who only boil pasta water and heat tinned soup. I am not trying to add to the mine is better than yours saga,I LIKE the Culinarian, but come on, muffler cement?


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Can you say .... warranty violation?


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Can you say ... Magnuson-Moss Act. That act says a manufacturer can only refuse warranty service on the grounds of unauthorized modification if the modification is the cause of the failure. IOW, modifying a burner in the way discussed here doe not void the warranty on the rest of the range.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Wow; amazing what a little true knowledge gets you. I had zero idea of this -- so interesting!

Plug away boys. ;) And let us see the pictures please!

As a well-gone-over aside, I am compelled, yet again, to remark on how totally neat it is to have on a single forum together such a diversity of knowledge and experience and "comfort levels". Thanks for putting up with those of us waiting for the -- what did Michelle say? "the 2012 CC Simmer Tour Bus ...", guys. We may be appalled by all the testosterishness, but speaking for myself, it's appalled in a fascinated, beneficial way. Sort of floats the boats of all knowing what a non-intimidated, knowledgeable person can get away with. Makes me very comfortable, truthfully, about tackling the air flow in the future. Seems a whole lot more tame than, say, welding the burners shut! Everything's relative ;)


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Iceman, I did some counting on my Bluestar and it has 35 gas ports around the inner hub of the 8K burner (There are no gas ports out on the arms of the "star")

This would align rather nicely with the number of ports in the center ring rather than the inner ring. (if one were seeking to mimic the output of the Bluestar "simmer" burner)

Regarding your calcs for the #61 orifice, I used your method and came up with the same ratio. The only thing would be how the density, or rather, viscosity, of NG behaves across the universe of possible orifice sizes. Anyway, if you were going to use the inner ring, it might be better to start smaller than larger, unless we can get someone who has done it (meaning you, Trevor) to weigh in with experimental evidence.

But it occurs to me that it might be better to see if it were possible to plug only the outer ring, then plug a staggered pattern of holes in the inner and middle rings of ports to allow something close to the total of 35 open ports.

You ask if I could measure the orifice on my range (the Bluestar). I would like to, but I do not have a drill bit small enough to clear the hole in the jet. My smallest drill bit is 1/16" and it won't clear the jet. Also, the drill size is not stamped on it either, but just an eyeball wag tells me that it is probably around a 55 gauge. It certainly is not very far off from that. If I were going to go with a 35 gas port array, then I would go with the 55#.

I did not realize, until you posted the counts, that we were talking about far fewer ports in the inner ring. Thanks for posting.

Peter, I don't have my infrared with me right now as I am down in the city for the next few days. But if nobody responds I'll check it out when I get home (as well as I can -- I don't have the fancy Fluke scanner, my infrared reader is a little thing that came with my Thermapen thermometer -- not sure how accurate it is)


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Aliris, LOL!! I'm enjoying the discussion from afar too. ;) Maybe, though, now they'll know why some people just prefer Wolf. My teeny tiny, modestly powered Wolf closed burner cooktop boils fast enough for me, and simmers like the dickens, with no fuss or bother at all. :)


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Yeah, I'm beginning to get the impression this is not the Macintosh of kitchen ranges. Not sure whether BS is either, but perhaps Wolf is -- as in "it just works".

Though ... that aside, it is hard to tell what is teething pains, what is sensitivity to initial conditions, and what is likely to be ongoing temperamentalness. Before getting too sniffy about it, I think it fair to remind myself that I did walk into the purchase of a new product on the market wide-eyed. I didn't *want* to take on such problems, but their having surfaced doesn't make it the product's or purchase's fault. No fair knowing the risks of the gamble, losing, and blaming the gamble.

Not that I've lost - I'm happy with the range overall, increasingly more so every day, for sure. The gamble was that there would be no issues out-of-the-box, like your Wolf. On that, well, there's been more drama than is ideal. :)


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

Mojavean: Interesting thought to block the outer and inner rings or some combination to achieve the diameter of fire you deserve as well as the desired Btu output. After a little more mental gymnastics and research here is what I have discovered.


I contacted our natural gas supplier and was told our NG has an energy content of 1050 Btu per cubic foot (at sea level) and it is delivered to into the home (after the meter/regulator) at an average pressure of 7" WC. I then discovered a reference chart which identifies the Btu available by fuel type (NG or LP), pressure and orifice size. The values for NG at 7" WC are very close to the figures I have been using. This chart can be found at http://www.andersonforrester.com/orifice_capacities/default.html.

If you take the 93 ports in a CC burner and divide this into the claimed 23,000 Btu you get 247.31 Btu available at each port. This would give the inner ring (21 ports) a capacity of 5193 Btu and would require a #61 office. If you used the middle ring only (36 ports) this would give you a rating of 8903 Btu and would require a # 55 orifice. If you knew how many BTUs and diameter of fire you wanted I think it would be possible to get about any combination you could desire IF you were willing to modify the burner.

Another interesting thing I discovered from the chart is a #45 orifice has a capacity of 24,144 Btu. The CC burner is rated at 23,000 Btu and it uses a #45 orifice. All things considered I think the 23,000 Btu claim by Capital for the CC burner is pretty darn close.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

To avoid increasing the diameter of the flame by using some of the middle ring ports, it might be possible to enlarge the inner ring ports a little. But I suspect that using a few of the middle ring ports to get up to 8K would not be an issue.

Of course, since the primary goal here is to get a low simmer, the best approach would be to progressively block middle ring ports until the simmer is low enough, and let the maximum be defined by that.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

I noticed the cook of the family had a pot of fava beans sitting on simmer for the last hour or so, so it was a good chance to get an updated temp of a Culinarian simmer (this is a burner that I did a minor adjustment on to improve the simmer). The chili photo above was from a closed-pot cooking session and not really all that helpful. This one had been sitting open and had been going at least an hour before I grabbed a temp reading:

It's not a thick sauce (and I also don't know if such a sauce properly simmers at a higher or lower temp than a pot of dried beans in water), but the simmer temp here is a serviceable (tho not ultra low) 176F.

Capital did arrange for someone to come adjust our simmer and they should be out in the next week or so. [I was late in responding to their request for info, so the delay in having this adjustment made is all due to me].

We still don't have all our equipment in (we are redoing some cabinetry so have continued to leave items in storage). I still consider the real test to be whether it can control a modern pressure cooker appropriately.


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RE: Capital Simmer Service Call

My appt is set for this Wed to change the ignitors. I'll report back shortly after.


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