I would rather bend over and have my range with the broiler under my hood when I broil fish or anything else with an odor in the oven I turn on my vent. In my opinion a gas range and an electric wall oven is the best of both worlds. Good luck.

I think you will have the best of both worlds with a range and a separate wall oven.

I see many posts where Electric ovens are better for cakes, cookies, while Gas ovens are better for meats alto if you had to, you could "Improvise" with either.

Single ovens, regardless of brand, tend to be more reliable than double ovens, and some double ovens will not allow you to go over 350F on both ovens at the same time.

Also you get the great infrared broiler with the BS or Capitol and those are really worth having. I have one outside (infrared broiler on my bbq) and there's nothing like it for doing steaks, fish, pork etc etc.

In fact, I can't recall the poster now, (sorry) but he said "Grill marks are an indication of too low a heat".
I've been grilling on my bbq for years,but never noticed that!, so I grilled some steaks on the regular bbq grill----yep grill marks, then I tried it with the infrared grill---no grill marks and the steak had a much nicer char on the outside whist still being (red)--(yea I like them rare)on the inside.(Who says ya can't teach an old dog new tricks?
So the infrared broiler is a "Must Have" for me.

Good luck on your decision, if I did not live in Calif, I would go with a "hot range" with an infrared broiler, alto to be honest, I sure would miss my induction cooktop--but
fortunately, I don't have to in Calif.

Gary

"...people are telling me that bending over to remove the food from a oven that is below your stove (a range) is not fun or recommended."

Just to qualify that statement, it is quite OK for poor people who cannot afford separate cooktops and wall ovens to bend over to access an oven. My mother did it until her 93rd year, when she finally gave up baking.

If you have the $$ and the space (wall ovens really cut down on your counter space, unless you have a large kitchen), get what you like.

I don't really like double ovens either because one is too high and one too low, and the range oven is way too low. I've avoided using the oven when I've had a range because I hated standing in front of a warm oven and hated bending to tend to it and all. My ideal is two separate single ovens at waist level. Definitely separate cooktop.

Why is this relevant? Have you never used a range? If you haven't it would be worth doing some cooking at a friend or relative's house, and seeing what it's like. Some ranges also have lower ovens than others. Play with them in the store. Do you like it? That's all that's relevant!!! Function comes before looks. If it functions for you, go ahead and get the look you like!

plllog, I like your idea. Very practical and also gives flexibility about oven sizes as well. It clearly solves the reliability issue that Gary brings up. What do you have for ovens?

I have always had a range as well as an electric wall oven. I have never had a problem with bending over....I love the look and heft of a range. I think with both you get the best of both worlds.

I'm 68, don't particulary care for bending over either.
I like Pillog's idea of 2 waste high ovens (ya know when we are in our late 90's). (LOL).

Our countertops are 36" tall and all the appliances are about 6 inches from the floor. The Elux Oven has huge door glass, and those fully gliding out racks---we usually use the top or middle racks so we don't do all then bending but still not as handy as what Pillog suggests.

Only problem "I would have" (If I did not have the infrared broiler outside) and can use it most of the year in Calif---How could I have one of those without the range?

Well hangs on there!!!!! Why not a wall gas oven with the rotesserie and the infrared broiler as well as an Electric oven????---That would do it, and if I designed that, I would also design some kinda vent somewhere close to the oven to catch most the smoke!!!

Gary

Something else to consider, perhaps. I have had double wall ovens and my problem is that I am 5'3 and when using the top oven and lifting large pans and pots from the oven I have burnt my forearms on more than one occasion. Usually the top oven is the more full featured oven so it gets more use. While it is nice to have the oven at eye level, it is much easier to lift heavy pots from knee level than to do so from shoulder height. And, while two waist high ovens sounds good, I can't spare the horizontal real estate but if you can, that could do the trick. Just a thought

Carol

When we started to plan our reno 6 yrs ago - I really wanted cook top & separate wall ovens - I had to forgo the idea due to space constraints & budget on cabs & separate cook top & ovens -

We ended up w/36" Viking open burner - 5 yrs later I can say I am quite happy with our choices. I was always a cook, baked just a few times a year. LOVE to bake now, so reliable - cakes, cookies, pies even some bread - oh la, la come out beautifully - so I proved the "electric ovens are better for baking" folks incorrect.
Further with wall ovens you need more cabinetry and loose counter space. Since we weren't expanding foot print in our modest 1930 home I did not want to loose counter space and pay additional money for built in cabinetry for ovens.

BTW - I don't mind at all about bending over for goodness sakes - bending is good - unless of course you have a significant ailment/disability that prevents you from doing so. But ask again when I am aged - that may be a different story ;)

We'll check back with you in a year or 2 Carol

59Dodge slips out "Quietly & Expediously"

it's psychology. I have a 2-drawer fridge and a waist high fridge also (bottom freezer). I have a wall oven which I use a lot.

I have no other oven or heating appliance or thingie. No toaster oven. No microwave. No toaster. No coffeemaker. No rice cooker. No bread maker. No waffle iron. I do have a fondue set but never used in the last 20 years.

Here is a link that might be useful: Future of Counter Top Cooker Appliances. Toaster Oven, Roaster

I don't see the big difference here--you say you'll still have one wall oven even if you get the range. If you have two wall ovens, you'll be bending for one of them--if you get the commercial range, you'll still be bending over for one of your ovens. It's a wash in my book, except that you've been dreaming of that commercial style range, AND you could have one gas and one electric if you so choose, which would be very cool. Most of us don't get a second chance to build our dream kitchen. If a commercial range is what makes your socks roll up and down, then do it and don't look back. And don't forget to post pictures afterwards. :-)

Have a great time building your kitchen,

Cj
(Who replaced her range with double wall ovens and a cooktop.. LOL!)

Thank you everyone for your posts! I love reading all of your opinions and your ideas. PLLLOG: It's weird but no one in my family, or any of my friends have a range so I can't try one out. One of the things I'm concerned about (and you said it also) is the oven putting out too much heat while your using the stove. Are there any Bluestar or Capital owners out there that can share their experience with that? I'm sure the insulation on some brands are worse than others so this could cause some people to have bad experiences with ranges and others, not at all. So far, the majority of you have had good experiences with ranges, it sounds like most of you think bending over and lifting heavy things out is not a big deal. That's good to hear since that's what I've always wanted! I have to admit that I'm not in my thirties or forties anymore, I'm 55 and having hot flashes, so being hot while standing by my stove doesn't sound so great (LOL) and yes sometimes my knees hurt when I bend down and come back up, but like JEJVTR said "bending is good"! Maybe I just need to get in better shape! CJ47 I get your point that one way or another (if your using two ovens at the same time) you have to bend over, but haven't you found that some ranges are really really low?! Or at least lower than a bottom wall oven is? But I love what you said about the fact that if I get a range and a single electric wall oven I can fulfill my dream of a commercial style range and this is my last chance to do that! Seriously, that's what I want but I just wanted to see if there was a lot of people out there who agree with my family/friends and the sales people who think a stove and two wall ovens are more convenient and just the smarter thing to do. Sometimes you just have to get what you want and stop worrying about it! I suppose when I get even older and all arthiritic (sp?) I won't be cooking for as many people and probably not as often as I do now so then I'll just use the wall oven! But I'll still have a beautiful range! Please keep your opinions coming!

Carol, I went from a wall oven to a 36" Capital Culinarian range for the same reason - I wanted a pro type range, and also I didn't want to sacrifice storage/counter space.

First, let me alleviate your fears of too much heat output. The Capital's oven door stays so cool that you can lean against it and not feel any heat.

As far as bending down to get the stuff out of it, I find that it is not that big of a deal, and I have a bad back. I do have a Breville toaster oven on the counter that I use for smaller baking needs, but I'd say I use both right about equally. If you are thinking of a 2nd wall oven, you really are getting the best of both worlds. Good luck with your decision.

I suppose when I get even older and all arthiritic (sp?) I won't be cooking for as many people and probably not as often as I do now so then I'll just use the wall oven!

gee Carol, that's a looong time off!

if you'll be fine with the bending for now, and since you have the space and budget for the range and wall oven, you should get what you want! :)

Another option...I liked the look of a big range, but wanted ovens/baking separate from cooking at the stove. ...So I designed the cabinets around the rangetop to create a hearthlike area or a the appearance of a big range area, but without the range. Not exactly the same, but the 'flavor' of what I liked about a nice range. Maybe not what you had in mind, though.

I love the drawers under the rangetop for storing pots and pans. I too, dislike a hot oven in front of my legs. The door usually gets at least a little warm, and even if not, as soon as the door opens, the cooking area is heated up.

My lower oven is a little lower than I find perfectly convenient, but it's sure still higher than the oven in a pro range. I know you said that no one you know has one, but it only took a visit to the appliance store to show me I didn't want one. I am just over 5'3" and I haven't burned myself on the top oven, but I have burned myself getting pizzas out of the lower rack of the bottom oven, by raking by knuckles across the hot door, because it's not an angle I'm used to, and because I don't always get that door opened all the way down like I should.

The rendering of the rangetop area:

At 50, bending over to use the oven in a range doesn't bother me a bit. I'll let you know how I feel when I'm 70 . . . if I can.

Are you having problems now? With back trouble, you might really want to make allowances. If you're fine, however, keep in mind a fundamental difference between an oven and cooking on the top of the range: there's nothing you cook in an oven that's an analog to making polenta or risotto. You don't stand there hunched over for 20 minutes constantly stirring when you bake or roast or broil. Even something that needs to be basted from time to time over the course of a few hours . . . if your knees and back are ok, it's just not much to do.

As others have said, a second oven can always go wherever you want, space permitting.

David, I am curious and not sure if I understood -- do you have a cooktop or equivalent?

Carol, yes, some of the range ovens are really low. Guess you'd have to find one that fit the bill for you. :-)

With regard to the height of double wall ovens--I had mine placed so that the top one is at a very comfortable height, and the bottom one is just a little bit on the low side. I usually use the top one anyway, and if I need the bottom one I do not find it inconvenient. Besides, my daughter called dibs on the bottom oven even before it was installed, so I rarely even have to worry about it, as whatever's baking in there is HER problem. :-)

Still, do not let all your friends, family and the salesman talk you out of what you really want. I'd also do some research on Blue Stars--it seems to me that awhile back there were some complaints about the front getting hot. And Rhome is right, once you open the oven to check on something, it gets hot in the cooking area. Not to try and sway you, but that was a good point.

Cj

We too are going through the same dilemma. My wife is a professional quality baker and cooks probably 19 meals a week. No we don't go out much. But when I have prefessioanl grade meal waiting for me each night, it's not too much of a concession. That being said, my wife has worked with basic GE gas ranges- first when we were newlyweds and now for the last five years after finally depositing our Dacor in the garbage. She has never had a problem with the gas range. As a result of our horrific Dacor experience, we don't want to rely on an electric oven as a sole source oven. Originally my wife was going to go with a Blue Star cooktop- that's a definite- with the Blue Star double wall oven. However, she is only 5'1" and it appears the installed height of the double oven will be too tall for her. So we are leaning towards a 36" Blue Star rnb range and then a Wolf 30" electric wall oven. On balance, my wife wants the larger oven you can only get in the range as the extra width is critical to her baking needs. However, she is curious to try electric baking again, since everyone raves about it, although her experience is counter to the general population. Does anyone have experience with the Blue Star wall oven. Just wondering if electric is unnecessary.

Hey dodge59,

How high is your speed oven? What do you consider a reasonable range of height for installing it? DW is 5'5" and fighting severe back problems, I am 5'9".

Hi Rhome, Thank you for the rendering! That looks like stacked stone over your rangetop, I see what you mean about giving it more impact that way! I actually have a brick arched enclosure over my stove right now. I'm planning (after I learn how) on posting a picture of my kitchen showing the brick and asking for opinions on ripping it out or leaving the brick alone, it does give that "hearth" focal point look.

Hi djgl, Yes my knees, shoulder and back get a little stiff these days but I'm fine for now. My sister is 7 years older then me and my Mom is 85 so that's why they say they would never get a range. When your redoing your whole kitchen and spending huge amounts of money you tend to rethink everything because you can't afford (literally) to make a mistake. I'm beginning to see that there is equal pros and cons both ways and without seeing the future (to know my health) I'm not going to give up the range for a rangetop and have regrets, I'll deal with any physical problems as they arise. Boy, don't I sound all brave, guess I'm getting closer to decision time. Im still deciding, Bluestar or Capital?

Speaking of Bluestar... there was a rep from Bluestar at an appliance place by my house on Friday. I asked him lots of questions and I got to see the changes they've made on the body (I think it's called a V1 now). Anyway, there was also an older version there too so I could see the improvement right away. I was very happy with what I saw. The rep told me that the oven door insulation keeps it from getting too warm. As for what happens when you open the oven door and all that heat comes out, well I guess that's another something to think about.....and one of the cons.

Thanks CJ and everyone for your opinions and advice!

The bottom of our Speed Oven is 55 inches above the floor.
I think that would be too high for your wife.

What I would do is have DW stretch her arms "Straight Forward" measure that (from the floor), then "Shoot for a design" such that the center or the oven/speed oven would line up with the above measurement.

We could have done that, but we wanted a little display area in that area (below the speed oven) to kinda
"break up" some of the wood area. So the area below the speed oven is granite (both top, sides and backsplash) and lit with under cabinet lighting.

It would be easy to redo, should we ever develop back problems and wanted the Speed Oven lower.

HTH's!

Gary

Follykid--if your wife really did want a double wall oven, why not install it lower so that it's comfortable for her? I don't think that there is any hard and fast rule that those need to be installed at a certain height. I didn't think about this, and my contractor installed mine WAY too high to be comfortable for me, so I had them lower it to a comfortable level. It's your kitchen, you can have whatever you want in it. That said, if she really needs a 36 inch oven, then the range/wall oven combo sounds like a better deal for her. Wolf ovens are known to be terrific--I'm sure Rhome410 can give you more info on that if you post a new thread on it. :-)

Cj

Thanks Cj. The problem is the lowest it sets on the wall is still too high. The cutout for the blue star double wall oven is 65". Most double wall oven cutouts are 52" Plus Blue Star recommends the bottom of the ovens be set a minimum of 10" off the floor for circulation. So 10 plus 65 gets up to 75". Granted the top is just the control panel, but still for a 5' tall person, it seems you're reaching up to get something out of the top oven.

Carol500, that is stacked stone in the rendering...Just one of the software's choices. I ended up with rough-faced quartzite. (You can see pics in the link below...The corbels are still missing, as well as the trim at the tops of the uppers and on the island.) I love brick. I actually looked for brick pavers or veneers first, but couldn't find a good dark red or a nice gray color that I needed. Anyway, if it's a nice color, and fits the space you'll need when you re-do, I'd likely vote for the brick. :-)

65" is a lot of wall oven, Follykid! That would make it high. My dbl wall ovens are set so that the controls are at eye level....For me about 60" from the floor. But I love my Wolf, so if you go that way, I hope your wife likes hers, too.

Here is a link that might be useful: My Kitchen

I had lost track of this thread. Pasture, I have a Gaggenau combi-steam oven over a Gaggenau single convection oven because they're designed so specifically to be stacked that they look totally ridiculous side by side. I'm tall enough that the big oven is only a little too low, and the steam oven, while technically too high, works because it's quite small and isn't meant to have things tended in an oven.

The center of the big oven is more like hip level for me, and I really hate that. I still have to stoop to baste, lift up to counter level to bring things out, etc. I'm all for bending for bending's sake, but the stoop, bend, twist of using lower cabinets, rather than drawers, is magnified by dangerous heat with a lower oven.

Rollout shelves probably help lower ovens a lot. A drawer set-up would be even better, so one wouldn't be burning the legs on the door trying to reach over it. I grew up with two counter high ovens in different locations in a tiny kitchen, and if I could have done the same without it looking totally goofy I would have done it in my current kitchen. That's one thing I do love about my Advantium on the other side of the kitchen. It's at the right level!!

That said, lots of people love ranges! I think Follykid's wife's choice of the big gas range and 30" Wolf wall oven sounds like a great choice for her usage.

CAROL, if your friends and family don't have ranges, ask them if any of their friends and family do. Ask the neighbors whose kitchens you don't know. And, for sure, find showrooms where you can try out the Bluestar and Capital, preferably installed and cooking. If you're nowhere near a showroom, it might even be worth a little trip to Eurostoves or another place that has both installed. Just don't guess!! Approximating from whatever range you can get to plus user experience here is fine, but don't be so enamored of the look that you don't even check to see if you're compatible. :)

Thank you everyone for posting your opinions!

Rhome, Thank you for the link to your kitchen pictures! It's a beautiful kitchen and well thought out. How great to have such a big family to share it with!
Hey Plllog, I have seen Bluestars in two places by my house (there's no Capitols on display in Orange County,CA yet, I have to go to LA or San Diego to see one)and I of course have opened the oven doors and bent down to see what it would feel like, but they're not hooked up so you can't feel how hot the door is going to be, which of course is an issue when it's turned on and your using the stove. But one thing I can do is grab some of the sample cookware they have in the showroom and see what it will feel like removing it from the oven. So thanks for your words of wisdom. I'm still giving it a lot of thought!