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Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

Posted by phillyfeet (My Page) on
Mon, Mar 17, 14 at 18:18

I am trying to finalize my decision on a 30 inch single electric wall oven. I like to bake and am looking for an oven with even baking and consistent temps. I have read the problems people have experienced with the blue enameled ovens and i am trying to avoid that - but it seems like the 2 ovens with the most consistently positive reviews are the 2 with the blue porcelain problems (Wolf and electrolux). I was leaning towards the DCS oven, but my husband isn't sure if he likes the styling with the other appliances that we are picking. So I feel like I am back to the drawing board.

Here's my question:
Am I being too paranoid by totally eliminating the possibility of getting the electrolux or the new Wolf (with the removable bottom)? Is the problem with the chipping, cracking, flaking only seen in the blue interior ovens, or has it been a problem in all ovens just maybe not noticed as much?
I would prefer not to go up in budget too much which may eliminate the Miele and definitely eliminates the Gagg.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

Sitting in a warehouse for the last four weeks is my 48 inch wolf black interior double oven. They are grumbling for me to commit to a delivery date. i still have inches of ice and snow for the oven to traverse and there is no way I am letting the home doors stay open for hours as they attempt to make the delivery.

Garden web has a plethora of posts, some biased, regarding all the available brands and issues surfacing. I was told that the enamel chipping has been rectified.
This old bat does not want to be beetching to service reps but cooking a rustique french cheesecake made with creme fraiche and mascarpone.
The blue enamel is only on the self cleaning ovens.
I opted for a wolf model that has black interior ovens with no self cleaning. Yes, I may be foolish but having lived in seven homes I still need to clean the oven with a self cleaning feature.

I spent Jan and February comparing wolf, Ge , Gagg, blue star, and Thermador. I compared the oven depths, the racks, and the range grates and measured the burner spaces.
Viking was about two grand more.
GE gas ranges were the least amount.
The difference between the Wolf and Blue Star was only five hundred.
All four appliance centers quoted the same cost for the viking model but the other brands did not have consistent numbers.

I love cooking on my 15 year old viking range. I absolutely love the burner space, the oven depth and the ease of cleaning the model but the ovens are shot.
The metal walls are frail and pitted.
I choose not to have any grill or pancake burner.
At the big family meals I am always juggling the burners and ovens wishing I had another burner. For my cooking style I need the two ovens and the 8 burners. I use iron skillets to fry my steaks.

I have friends who have all Gagg appliances including a wall unit espresso maker. They love their Gagg.


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

I had a Wolf oven with the blue enamel for a couple years until we moved and never had any issues with anything including enamel. I would buy one again in a heartbeat. A couple friends also have Wolf DF ranges with no issues. I have learned to take what you read online with a grain of salt. It is mostly always just the bad you read about. For every unhappy person there is probably 1000 happy people... Every product will have some unhappy people if you dig deep enough. Buy what you want/like and enjoy!

R


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

" Posted by chickadee4
Sitting in a warehouse for the last four weeks is my 48 inch wolf black interior double oven.

By double oven I guess you mean range. The OP is looking for a wall oven and I don't think they make a wall oven with a black interior unfortunately.

"I was told that the enamel chipping has been rectified."

Yes that is the company line but if you search blue chipping, on this forum, you will see recent issues.

"Posted by rentaltux
I had a Wolf oven with the blue enamel for a couple years until we moved and never had any issues with anything including enamel. I would buy one again in a heartbeat. A couple friends also have Wolf DF ranges with no issues."

That is exactly how I felt until at 4.5 years the Wolf DF started shedding blue glass shards. I went from a very happy owner who highly recommended my range on this forum to an owner who was very disappointed with the way Wolf did not stand behind their product with a known issue. They would not even give me a price to fix it--just that the labor would start at $800 and the part would only be guaranteed for a year.

" I have learned to take what you read online with a grain of salt. It is mostly always just the bad you read about. "

Many of us with the blue porcelain issues have been posting here a long time and we all started out loving our appliances. The telling thing for me is that the people here who have had blue porcelain issues have had as many as three ovens-all with the porcelain going bad. There are others in my area that have had the porcelain fail in their DF ranges.


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

Thanks for the replies.

Yes, I am looking for a wall oven. Already decided on an all gas range (36 inch BS) and want a smaller electric oven for nightly meals and baking.

I guess I was also hoping to hear if anyone had the problem on a non-blue interior. I was talking myself into the Electrolux yesterday because of so many great reviews and a good price point for the non-icon. I will just be so mad at myself for choosing it if a problem does arise with the porcelain. I know any appliance can have a problem, but I am having a hard time settling on something with a known issue.

Wekick - I was hoping to get your take on this issue since I have read about your problems with the enamel on both wolf and electrolux. If you had to buy a new oven today, do you know which one you would pick based on all the reading you've done here?

Based on all i've read, here's my thoughts on 4 potentials without blue interiors:
Bosch (500 or 800) - mixed reviews on here and on-line sellers regarding eveness of baking and keeping inside of glass on door clean
GE Cafe - mostly all good reviews on online retailers, but they are all sourced from GE website which has me a bit cynical (bad review on amazon) Not much posted on GW
DCS- again, few reviews and mixed on oven performance and F&P customer service
Miele - getting past the additional initial cost factor, mixed reviews on baking and high cost of repair

Wish there were a clear winner - looks like the winners on the performance end either have blue interior or are waaaayy out of budget

Thanks for letting me vent


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

Out of curiosity I last week I googled Bosch wall oven and I got a jaw dropping listing on ebay for a 30 inch Bosch 800. It was still in the original packing and being sold by a private owner who said he didn't need it and that it was last year's model. Check it out and if you are a gambler it could be a real winner.


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

phillyfeet,

I wish I knew what to tell you. My track record isn't very good! I don't feel I can recommend any oven that I haven't used. That said, here are my thoughts.

Another consideration for you might be the Kenmore Elite w/dual fans It is made by Electrolux but has gray enamel. It doesn't have any of the low heat functions like proofing or dehydration settings like Elux and the lowest temperature setting is 170, but does have Airguard, a catalytic air oven exhaust cleaner. It seems to get good reviews. In the one bad review, the person melted foil on the bottom, which the manual states clearly not to do. She also had a bad bottom heating element so not sure if it could be related. I am not a fan of Sears but they don't specifically exclude the enamel lining like Electrolux does in their extended warranty. I would carefully read the warranty/extended service plan and make sure they don't consider the lining a cosmetic issue. It seems that I have only heard one person reference second hand about someone having an issue with gray enamel and it was a while ago.

I think many of the glass doors of ovens made today are open and allow food to get in between the glass windows. Some are open on the inside of the door so when open, stuff can fall in. I guess it would be better to have the opening on the top of the door.

It does seem at least on this forum that most people like their Bosch ovens. It is a shame there is not more on the other ones. I have seen 10 year service plans but haven't read them but I might try to find something like that if not exorbitantly expensive. Some complained about the buttons but I think they require a very light touch.

I would not buy any oven with electronics that is not warrantied unless you can afford to lose the amount paid for the oven.


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

I went back on ebay yesterday to check and the cheap Bosch was gone. Someone was a gambler. Often, if you check there you can find new ovens for a lot less though. Probably without the manufacturer's warrantee. I get email ads from Goedeckers (sp.) which have lower prices and free shipping and they offer extended warrantees. Be sure you know how to get it into your kitchen in case the free shipping involves only curbside delivery.


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

If you read here about the Electrolux ovens, You will find there were only about 4 ovens, since maybe 2006 that had the porcelain problem, of those that were replaced, we did not hear of any new porcelain problems with the replacements, and in fact I do not think we have seen any posts about Electrolux porcelain problems except for Wekick's posts~~~now it's possible I missed one!

What ticked some of us off about the Elux ovens is that they "Speciafically exclude" the porcelain in their after market warranties, alto I'm not sure WHO, "They are", perhaps Wekick can elaborate? Is it actually Electrolux service, or some Non_Elux company that one would buy for after market warrant, (the warranty you can buy after one year)?

One of our posters here found out that some companies, DON"T even cover the porcelain during the regular one-year warranty.

So maybe we have "Singled out" Electrolux after market warranty, unfairly?~~~what is the competition doing?

Also how is the porcelain that was replaced in your oven doing now, Wekick?

As I stated previously, I don't like the fact that the porcelain is excluded in after market warranty, for any oven, but not sure this would be a "Deal Breaker for Me", as I've had mine over 7 years with no problems, and we do like the blue porcelain, couple that with a lack of "posted problems here", with their "newer ovens" (3 to 4 years old).

To me, Electrolux's biggest mistake was to take away the lift out bottom that mine has, (and that Wolf is going to).

To sum it up, there's still not an oven made that I (myself) would choose over the Electrolux, It bakes well, Is quiet, well lit, and I love the "Big Display" that hides away, when the oven is not in use.

I would google Electrolux Oven Reviews, then check the dates of the posts, that should help you decide if the porcelain problem was several years ago, when almost any manufacturer had the problem with the blue porcelain, or is it a "continuing problem",( ~a la Wolf).

Gary


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

I know someone who lined the floor of their Elux Pro oven with aluminum foil and it ruined the blue enamel. They did not read the owners manual before they did it.

We installed a 30" Elux Wave Touch 16 months ago. Have only used self-clean feature once. Blue porcelain is doing fine but a pain (impossible!) to manually clean per owners manual instructions. Even going beyond Elux's instructions, impossible without ruining the shiny enamel finish.
I try to not use self-clean for fear of ruining the computer electronics.


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

I could certainly understand someone might still want to buy an Electrolux oven. Very hard to beat the way it functions. Here are a few more comments to what Gary said.

" Posted by dodge59
If you read here about the Electrolux ovens, You will find there were only about 4 ovens, since maybe 2006 that had the porcelain problem

It is so hard to extrapolate the incidence of these problems based on how many report issues here. I think I am the only person who has reported issues with my Wolf DF here and yet there are others in my small market area that have had issues. People just paid for the repairs and haven't posted anywhere that I can see. The guys who repaired my Electrolux have also repaired other liners in our area and they are a smaller independent repair company.

"What ticked some of us off about the Elux ovens is that they "Speciafically exclude" the porcelain in their after market warranties, alto I'm not sure WHO, "They are", perhaps Wekick can elaborate? Is it actually Electrolux service

Yes. I linked to the Electrolux extended service plan and posted the wording in a couple of posts, but here it is.

"This Service Contract does not cover repairs which are necessary because of improper installation, cosmetic damage, negligence, misuse, abuse, alteration, rust of any kind, service or replacement of porcelain enamel, exterior and interior finishes, "
Electrolux/Icon terms and conditions of extended service plan

I also mentioned that you might be able to find a plan that will cover repairs. You have to look for language that does not exclude anything that is excluded in the original warranty.
Electrolux service, while you are under warranty, for me was pretty good. They replaced my oven when it was new for flaking blue. It did not flake again so I assumed it was one of the "fixed" ovens. The minute you are out of warranty, you become the red headed step child. I called to see if the liner could be replaced and they told me I had to a service tech call ($80 service charge) and they would tell them but not me. Luckily I had an extended warranty from the vendor and it was fixed.

"One of our posters here found out that some companies, DON"T even cover the porcelain during the regular one-year warranty. "

That was me that posted that. I have been reading a lot of warranties and that is American as I was considering the Performer to replace my Wolf. They are the only company that I have found so far with that exclusion.

"So maybe we have "Singled out" Electrolux after market warranty, unfairly?~~~what is the competition doing?

So far it is the only one that has excluded in in their own extended service plan. It does seem to be covered in the original one year warranty, page 43.

I will post as I come across anymore. American also does not cover broken glass but someone here recently had the window break and they sent them a new window. The only problem with that is there is nothing written so it is at their discretion and might be at the whim of the person answering the phone.

"Also how is the porcelain that was replaced in your oven doing now, Wekick? "

Not quite a year but so far so good, but no self cleaning.

"couple that with a lack of "posted problems here", with their "newer ovens" (3 to 4 years old). "

My issue took almost 5 years to show up this time. My oven is used almost daily.

These would be some of my considerations if you wish to buy an Electrolux oven.

Shop around on the extended warranty. You can get one from Costco(Square Trade) but not sure of the terms. Buy the longest extended warranty that you can. One online company has 10 years but I haven't read the terms and conditions. Read carefully and make sure that there are no exclusions for the interior enamel. Clarify what "cosmetic" means. Some exclude anything excluded on the original warranty. This is also good to have in case the computer boards go out. Look for any cap on the amount spent on repairs.

Don't run the self clean. Watch very carefully for any crazing to develop. This turns into chipping. Wipe periodically with a white paper towel to check for blue.

My repairs cost a little over $500. You might be able to do this a couple of times and still be ahead when you consider what you have to spend to get the same function as the Elux has.


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

I just want to thank everyone for your replies and thoughts on this topic. I'm still unsure what to do, but will give an update once a decision is made. What a shame that appliance manufacturers even put us in this position - it's not as if there aren't more important things to worry about in life. Picking an oven shouldn't be on the list of difficulties.


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

I can only report our Electrolux oven has been self-cleaned at least 3 times in our first year of ownership with no signs of enamel chipping-is that an accurate prediction of a trend for trouble free enamel? I don't know. We almost always use either convection bake or convection roast-these modes use all 3 elements, hidden bake, broiler, and convection fan elements in alternating short on off periods-does that equate to less oven liner stress, maybe, but I suspect self clean only uses bake element and maybe broiler, but 1 year in , so far so good. I hope whichever you choose keeps the enamel where it belongs for a long time. I did buy Sears 3 year warranty out of my concern re pricy electronic control boards-are there any residential wall ovens without control boards?

This post was edited by venmarfan on Sun, Mar 23, 14 at 21:29


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

I read all I could about double ovens. People kept telling all have problems, but you need to go with someone who will take care of them. Almost all said Wolf. I committed to Wolf in my cabinet layout, choosing to wait for the M series which should have been issued in Feb. 2014. The day after the cabinetry was install my rep called me to say the M is delayed until Dec. 2014, possibly Jan 2015 at the earliest. In trying to find a solution, I keep coming back to Miele (have their dishwasher and love it). I keep reading about heat/temp problems not as good a baker as Wolf. I do not want the enamel problem. Added to the confusion, Bosch has announced that on April 2014, they will issue their Benchmark line with side doors like the gags and no blue enamel.

Anyone else out there in the same boat? Please advise. Slowly losing my mind.


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

Salesman keeps trying push Wolf and claims no knowledge of the enamel issue. Seems too risky. I'm planning on going with Miele, 36" Induction, Steam-combi and 30" Convection ovens.


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

I am in the same situation - I can't find a wall oven without problems and don't know what to do. I just called Wolf to talk to them about the details of the warranty as it relates to the porcelain chipping. I could tell my question really stressed her out (even though I was not being particularly aggressive). She told me that the chipping is cosmetic unless you can show it was linked to another defect. As such it is only covered in within the first 60 days. This doesn't seem as it would help with a problem that typically show up later. I am starting to think I might explore not installing the oven now, but wait and for some of these new entrants (BS wall oven, Bosch side opening oven...) to develop track records. In the meantime, I'll at least have the combi steam oven. Just makes me a little nervous to rely on something with such a steep learning curve!


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

So Wolf now has even less of a warranty than Elux. on the oven interior?

This references the stainless steel but says interior surfaces.

from their website
"Stainless steel (doors, panels, handles, product frames and interior surfaces) are covered by a limited 60-day parts and labor warranty for cosmetic defects ."
http://www.subzero-wolf.com/resources/WolfWarranty.pdf

I can't believe that when you mix tiny glass shards with convection fans, they consider that cosmetic.


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

Wow! What a weasel move on the part of Wolf. Glad i wasn't considering their ovens anyway.
Pretty much decided on the DCS wall oven. Of course, no matter what i choose, I know it's always a gamble these days.


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

Phillyfeet-
I am interested in what made you lean towards the DCS in the end? I don't know why I eliminated them in the beginning (I am starting to go around and around), but I think it might have been the paucity of information. I was also not as worried about Wolf - my original choice- as I am now...

In looking again, I might consider DCS myself, but I agree that there is no risk-free choice.


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

I took into account price, features, looks and reviews while looking at all ovens.

The DCS doesn't have a lot of reviews online, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing since it sometimes seems people are more inclined to write a review when they have a bad experience. From what i understand, it is very similar if not identical inside as the fisher paykel and i've read good things about how that oven performs (see Rhome's experiences with all of her ovens)

The interior is not blue!!! And it has the telescopic sliding racks on all 3 racks.

Oven temp can be set at 100 for bread proofing and there is a warming function (165 degrees).

Price is within budget.

Doesn't appear to be too many electronics - i won't be running self clean just in case, though. Knobs and buttons instead of touch pad.

While at first I wasn't sure if i liked the handle and overall look, when i was watching America's Test Kitchen recently, I could see the ovens in the background. They actually did look nice.

I have read both good and bad about Fisher Paykel customer service which makes me nervous. Honestly, it seems like that is true of most appliance manufacturers these days.

HTH!!


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

First thing to do is see if there is F&P/DCS service in your area.
Next check out that service, Do they stock parts, ask for referrals.

You are correct, not many reviews, I only found 2 positive ones, (on several different sites), but by the same posters.
One had not had the oven long enough to make any determinations about its reliability.

Some discussion of them on Chow Hound (around 2012) as I recall, and some service problems, some quality problems, racks become gummed up, etc.

Well I gotta get off cmptr now, More "Shake and Bake".
I am about 6 miles for La Habra, the epicenter of the 5.1, Friday night at 9.09.

Gary


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

I know you want an upscale oven but I have a relatively low cost GE Profile oven with a blue enamel interior. I have used the self clean function many times. No damage to the interior. only had a problem with the electronics. That was due to oxidation of the cable contacts. Once in a while I have to bump the panel with the side of my hand to shake the connections and all works well. I wonder if one of the upscale GE ranges would serve your purpose.


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

I don't need upscale - just reliable and that seems to be a tall order! (and maybe not too loud which is a frequent complaint from the whirlpool brand oven owners). I really am a mid-range shopper, but if i need to spend a little more to get something that lasts, i'll do it. Cause i don't want to have to go through this hell every 5 years!

I was considering the GE cafe and some of the profile ovens. Then I started to read about uneven baking in the GE's and a few other complaints (can't remember what). the cafe had mostly positive reviews, but there really isn't much price difference between that and the DCS


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

Thanks. Makes a lot of sense!


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

Gardingnovice-
Just thought i'd give you a bit of an update. i still haven't pulled the trigger on my appliances yet, but i did ask my local appliance dealer about the wall ovens. He said he sells few of the DCS (more ranges than wall ovens) and he recommends the following based on service record and oven capacity (i also requested ovens with proof and warm modes since i am skipping the warming drawer):

GE Cafe
Bosch 800

I had been considering the GE, but i need to go look at it in person again.


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RE: Oven enamel problems - thoughts?

Well I finally made a decision and ordered the GE Cafe single wall oven. It won't be installed till the end of summer so i'll post a review once it's gotten some use.

Thanks again for everyone's thoughts on this topic.


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