gibby3000,

What are using in your water softener, potassium, or salt? We had the same symptoms that you mentioned with our Asko. We ceased putting any dishwasher salt in the DW and reduced the amount of detergent, plus changed detergent to Cascade Complete; so far we have had excellent results. We also switched to potassium in our redundant water softener system, and we would never go back to salt.

I have the Bosch with a child lock and top controls. On the positive side it is an attractive machine and blissfully quiet. It can also accommodate large pots well which was a big selling point for me.

It is true that the plastic and tops of mugs are always wet (understand that, comes with that type of machine so doesn't bother me).

For my personal requirements, the drying rack system has not been great. I have deep bowls without a wide plate edge and Bosch puts the racks close together so that you can get more place settings in. My bowls won't stack securely on the bottom rack unless I move the rack tines to a more horizontal position and inefficiently impale a single bowl completely face down on an individual tine. The other option is to put them in the top rack where there is never enough room to accommodate both them and the many cups and glasses we use.

On the negative sides, all of my glasses are now etched despite following all directions to the letter about water and detergent. Several pieces of cutlery have also been gouged in the silverware tray. I have never completely filled the individual cutlery holes in the tray and certainly don't double them up so I would think that shouldn't happen. Never had it happen in the "throw everything in together cheapo cutlery baskets I have had in the past". Also need to run the machine everyday or I get the Bosch smell.

I have also found that I need to pre-rinse pretty heavily as compared to other machines. Now, not long into ownership, the bottom rack has completely stopped working. The kind folks on this board are trying to help me as the repairman agreed it wasn't working but couldn't identify what was wrong.

Maybe a new tech can fix mine. I would so love to be happy with it. I know that others love theirs, that is why I bought mine.

You may be pre-rinsing too much and that may be why your glasses are etching. Enzyme detergents require dirt on the dishes in order to work properly - otherwise they'll etch the dishes. You need to scrape but not rinse. Also, are you using rinse aid - it's need in a Bosch. A friend of mine hated her Bosch - she thought rinse aid was too expensive - but I convinced her to use it and now she's a lot happier.

I'm currently in the market for a DW and have been looking at both the Bosch and Miele. The salesman said that etching is due to the higher temperature of the water now being used in most dishwashers. This is because they no longer have a drying cycle, and use the heat of the water to dry the dishes. The combination of very hot water and hard water causes the etching.

Does this make sense to any of you who have these DWers?

Thanks

Weissman, thanks for your thoughts about the possible reasons. Wish that was it. Have always used rinse aid, have never pre-rinsed the glasses and have followed all other advice about avoiding etching re detergent and water types.

Started out scraping plates. Kept on doggedly scraping plates. Kept on getting specks of glued on food and a mess in the case of oatmeal. And my stacking was definitely good. Found that pre-rinsing regular dishes and pots was the only thing that helped, but still had to check every item for cleanliness before putting it away. Assumed the Bosch just didn't work as well as my previous machines. Perhaps mine has been faulty from the get go in addition to the most recent lower rack failure. I wish Guadelupe well with the new Miele.

Wow!!! I thought picking out a range was difficult. This DW thing seems worse. Now I have to worry about which DW works better with hard or soft water and whether or not to use a rinse aid? I'm about to jump off a cliff.

Very happy w/the Miele Advanta - 2yrs now - runs everyday - the very few times things did not come out spotless had to do w/the way things were loaded -

Had the same problem as gibby and previously posted about it.

It definitely has to do with the whole house softener. We have one as well. They disabled the salt dispenser on my machine and upped the final rinse water temp. The high temp and powder detergent and soft water combo is what created the etching in my case. One set of my glasses is etched but they are the heavy Duralux so it's not as noticeable as it would be on finer glasses. You can see the swirl marks and cloudiness on them but they are faceted.

Since I switched to the Miele tabs I haven't had additional etching. I use 1/2 tab and when I have a very light load I run it without any tab and let the residual detergent do the job. Everything gets clean and it clears out the machine so I don't ever get too much detergent in there.

If glasses are filmed then can be cleared with vinegar. Etching is said to be irreversible but I expect we'll find something that could resurface glass eventually.
When I wash wine glasses I use half tab and my china/crystal cycle. I use a whole tab only for heavy duty pot and pan loads.

Those who have whole house softeners (we are also on well water that has destroyed the shower and every faucet in the house pre-reno) should be aware of the issue and perhaps consider a dw that doesn't have a built-in softener.

rococogurl,

If people look for only those dishwashers without the additional water softener feature, then they may also be reducing the amount of dishwasher features, just as it is true with Miele DWs. Simply do not load the water softener compartment with salt, as we chose not to do in our Asko; the DW will operate just fine, but there will be no salt to further soften the water.

In regards to etching, you can purchase glass polish at automotive stores and simply polish out the etching. The more etching, the more manual polishing to return the glassware to its original state. However, because it is glass polish you typically have a better result that is a good as new. It is also good for the removal of various logos or emblems on glassware that the dishwasher detergent has slowly faded away, but left enough to be an eyesore.

Okay - rococogurl - I do need to try the Miele tabs. You mentioned before that you were having good luck with those. Of course today I just bought some Cascade complete - at above recommendation - says helps prevent etching. I also switched to a different rinse aid that supposedly does that. I need to get the Miele tablets though - maybe they are "overengineered" to perfectly match the overengineered dishwasher!!

fahrenheit - it's not a matter of not loading the compartment with salt. Mine has never had salt in it. I was told by Miele that the problem was that it had to be "disabled" - that it still softened without salt. The salt was just to "regenerate" if you will. In any case "disabling" didn't resolve the problem either.

gibby -- I finally sprang for a new set of wine glasses when homeclick had a good discount. 0 problem.

I've been using the tabs for several months and am very satisfied. I'll also continue doing my mini loads with the residual soap -- less seems to be more with the softener. Have used both rinse aid brands with little difference.

Will be interested to see how it goes for you.

Has anyone had a problem with an oily/tar like odor coming from the exterior top of their Bosch DW.????
Bosch has replaced mine 3 times (it's only one month old!!!) and there still is a odor.
They are now just going to remove the machine. They know there is a problem accoding to their service reps.
Model SHE55MO

Mindstorm's wise words of many months back actually helped me make this decision. The bottom line was that I wanted clean dishes, done quietly. Bosch had done that for me before, and getting mid-line Bosch dishwashers (we needed 2) meant saving hundreds of dollars over 2 lowest end Mieles. We're now perfectly happy with our Bosch dishwashers. The Miele cutlery rack did look cool, but since I've never had it, I don't miss it.

I have an 18 inch Bosch dishwasher on order, but haven't made a final decision on whether to order their stainless door (extra $300) or attach a matching panel from my cabinetry, which requires (according to Bosch) an accessory hinge kit ($150). I can not find ANY information on how to determine what size panel is needed or how to attach it. My appliance store said that I should get that information from wherever I ordered the cabinets but the cabinet place is telling me that the door length I need to make everything line up is over an inch longer than the maximum door length recommended by Bosch. Very frustrating. Does anyone have any information about this? I even called Bosch, and they couldn't give me an answer. They said they don't let their tech people talk to customers, which would be fine if someone else there was able to answer the question. I don't even have the dishwasher yet and I'm starting to hate it....

I have owned a Bosch dishwasher for 10 years and have only had to have it serviced once (and the problem was largely my own doing). AND it's quiet and get's your dishes clean. Highly recommend.

Renee

I have a Bosch that is about 5 years old. I've found that if I crack the door open as soon as I hear the beep, the dishes dry much better. If I don't open the door and the DW cools down, some items are wet, usually plastic type stuff, but things like plates and glasses are mostly dry. The DW is incredibly quiet - sometimes I have trouble telling if it's on- and we've never had any problems with it. My friend has a Miele (don't know which one) and she is also very happy with hers. Neither of us had installation problems.

I've never had a Miele but heard such great things about them here and planned on them for our new house build (a few years ago now) but when I went to test them--not available locally--I couldn't put a LOT of my pots, pans or cookie sheets in them. Even salespeople tried--and they tried hard--but no luck. I ended up with two top-of-the-line Boschs and am reasonably happy. I put EVERYTHING in the dishwasher (HATE washing dishes by hand) and 8 or 9 times of 10 they come out clean and no problem. Yes, plastic stuff doesn't get dry (not an issue for me, as I hate plastic and never used it, until we had a toddler; now plastic cups, etc. are a necessary evil) and occasionally a load will have to be run twice because the dish soap dispenser didn't open. Also glad I got them locally, since I had LOTS of problems with other "out of area" appliances I purchased. One of the Bosch's arrived non-working and the (local) dealer/company exchanged it for me within 72 hours with a brand new, working unit, installed. Both run very quiet (barely hear them in our great room--only during the drain cycle).

So, not perfect, but pretty damn good is my assessment of the Bosch and, cost-wise, they were a tiny bit less expensive than the comparable, top-of-the-line Miele.

-Susan W.

I just stumbled upon this post when doing a dishwasher search; I was at a showroom, looking at a Miele and a KitchenAid today. The salesgirl told me the European-styled dishwashers (she put Miele, Bosch, and Dacor in this category) didn't have the heat coils in the bottom like the American-styled ones (KitchenAid). So, plastic stuff never gets totally dried (but on the other hand, never gets melted on a coil, either). She also said the European style doesn't have a food grinder, like the KitchenAid would. This makes them much quieter, but then also means there's a food trap to clean, plus a higher potential for food residue on dishes.

Does this sound familiar to anyone? I wasn't too caught up in a particular brand for our dishwasher, but of course, liked the idea of a Miele. Now after looking at them and talking to her, I'm starting to think a nice KitchenAid might be the solution for me!

Here's our miele dishwasher we love it, and it was an easy install

Cleaned a Miele Excella after 40 washes and found basiclly nothing except a small grity specs. The plastics seem dry and have no fear of putting plastics in the bottom. Like the cutlery tray on the top. Very quiet

"She also said the European style doesn't have a food grinder, like the KitchenAid would. This makes them much quieter, but then also means there's a food trap to clean, plus a higher potential for food residue on dishes.
Does this sound familiar to anyone? "

Yes, very much so. This is the standard line given by salespeople. But after having a Bosch for 6 years, I can say that it is a non-issue.

I LOVE Miele DW's also. Much better than any other brand I have ever owned, although it was my first European brand. So I guess it would be fair to say that with my experience Miele is much better than any domestic brand I have owned. Just do a search on here and find how many people actually have problems/complaints with their Miele's. The percentage is VERY low(other than plastic not totally drying). Probably the lowest of any brand on here. Bosch also seems to not have a lot of complaints. The most common being an odor and plastic not drying.

Right now in my house I have installed the Kenmore dishwasher that came with the house. Not sure of the model but it is a cheap domestic one with a coil, and the plastic doesn't dry totally in it either. Can't wait to pick up my new(second Miele) from my appliance dealer after I am done my reno's.

To summarize. One vote for Miele.

trying for the picture again, I had panels made up so that they look like 3 drawers with the knobs, when it's shut it doesn't even look like a dishwasher, that's the look I was going for, I love my Miele dishwasher.

MIELE....you won't be sorry! I have Diamante going on 3 years now.

Have had no problems with my 2 Bosch Integras for three years. I use very little detergent and do glassware on the delicate cycle. I don't rinse, but I do brush globby stuff off before loading. Plastics are often damp after the wash cycle completes. I let them air dry. Love the quiet! So far, no odor issues. I have a whole house water softener. Non-negotiable in this region.

I have a Kitchenaid and love it. My neighbor bought a Miele during a kitchen redo and used it a week and hated it. She was able to return it for Kitchenaid. Her complaint was the lack of drying her glasses. I also had a GE before the KA and loved that too.

To each his own...

So interesting...I had been so focused on other appliances for our build that I just figured I'd take "whatever" for the dishwasher. I definitely don't need top of the line, but I do want something that will get the job done.

Any chance anyone has a Dacor dishwasher? That is my builder's brand du jour, so he naturally thinks it's a great brand to install. So far, I have no Dacor on my list, but I had thought maybe I'd just go w/it for the dishwashers.

I'm not sure what I would like better, getting back to the topic at hand: a European model like Miele, or what I'm used to (currently have Kenmore Elite, which is so-so).

I am wowed by how many people love their Miele. I'm glad you like your Kitchenaid, too, jane_ny! I looked at a model that had neat features like a bag for sippy cup inserts (highly used items at my house) and that silverware rack that was similar to Miele's line.

We are putting in two dishwashers, each flanking the sink, so I'm wondering if I could actually afford two of the expensive Mieles. Are they worth breaking the bank?

I have to ask, whats with the TWO dishwashers?

Are these commercial kitchens?

joepy- If you've got the space and the $, two DW's is a great way to go. My wife wanted it, I didn't, we got it, and now I'm glad we did. Makes life really simple.

I don't have space. My house is tiny. I don't have a dishwasher now. I'd like to install a dishwasher... but I'm not sure I have room for one dishwasher, let alone two. ;-)

I was thinking about getting a Bosch. But I haven't made up my mind yet. I know I can get a Bosch at the local appliance store. And my husband's buddy used to work as an appliance installer / repair man and he recommended Bosch too. So that's probably the route we will go, but I like reading about all the pros and cons on this site. Great information here.

My entry level Bosch does a wonderful cleaning job; dries thoroughly except for dimples in the bottom of mugs, etc. I'm delighted to get such performance for the price. (It's quiet, too!)
Good luck with your choice. Kate.

jencjudd, I too looked at the Dacor DW. I was told that it is a new Dacor design, and that their previous attempt was recalled and all models were pulled off the market due to leaking issues. I stayed away and bought a Bosch. For the cheapest Dacor, you can buy a Miele Excella machine. If you want to spend that much,)and do not need a 30" DW) with out a doubt, go with the Miele. If you need the 30" width, then I would consider the Dacor, if there is local service.

We have a slowly dying Bosch (13 years old) and recently started looking to replace, and are torn between low-end but not lowest-end Bosch (SHE45M02) for $700 + 200 install and cheapest Miele with the cutlery tray (G2142SC) for $1100 + 300 install. So I have some comments about our old Bosch and some Qs for all of you. Old Bosch seems to have a heating coil so maybe that is why we did not have many drying problems but it worked great for many years and is very quiet. (Current slow death is due to several age-related problems I won't go into.) We like the idea of the cutlery tray on the Miele and are wrestling with whether it is worth the extra cost since except for that feature, we figure they are about equal. But we heard that Miele gives local monopolies to service providers so that fixing out of warranty is a small fortune since there is no competition. And info on that would be helpful. Also am considering trying to install myself to save that extra expense. But I have not been able to find the installation instructions on line to see how easy they are to follow, etc. Comments appreciated.

Get Miele. I love the Miele. It is silent. It holds an incredible amount. The flat cutlery tray rocks.

When I chose the Miele my rather animated appliance salesperson said that the Bosch was nice too and he sells both, but "I might as well fall into a black hole as try to get service for it!" (He added a few choice four-letter adjectives too, but the meat of the quote is as above).

He also said that "other dishwashers are quiet, but Miele dishwashers are silent."

Have a 4 y.o. Miele Incognito (now Excella) in our house (see my posts above) and having resolved initial drying issues & glass etching connected with whole house water softener it has been an excellent choice. The softener in the machine has never been used and it was disabled by programming via a Miele tech who knew his business. It is connected to cold water (previously was connected to hot) and while they say it's optional, best to go with the cold IME.

I'm about to upgrade the DW in our apartment and would not consider a different brand -- if that helps anyone. I wouldn't buy a model without cutlery tray as it increases capacity.

Undecided as to models because those have changed since my last purchase. Later this week there's a home show with a huge Miele display and plan to thoroughly check out all the models to see differences and pick the reps brains.

Installation can affect sound level of this DW so I'd read any install instructions very carefully and call them with any questions.

We have a Miele and love it. Mother has Bosch and the dishes do not get dry. We were unable to find a solution to the drying issue, except to open the door and let them air dry or use a dish towel. Bosch customer service was not helpful either. I definitely prefer the Miele for the drying, interior color, interior design, silverware tray and customer service. No doubt we would pick the Miele. I hope you do too.

I have a question about the Miele cutlery tray. Will cooking utensils fit? Say spatula or ladle?

Most spatulas will fit.

Most ladles will not.

The upper rack has fold down racks on the upper portion for lids and big utinsels.

Try ASKO. It's a wonderful dishwasher.

LOL about the two dishwashers question from joepyeweed, AND the fact I posted my question six months ago and still haven't picked my dishwashers out yet!

joe, to answer your question as to why I'm putting in two dishwashers, I have five kiddos (one is a bottle drinkin' infant ;)), and we like to entertain friends and family. Just this past Sunday, we had loaded our dishwasher (no joke) THREE times that day and still had two sinkfuls of dishes leftover. I am beside myself with excitement for two dishwashers in our new house! :)

As far as the dishwasher hunt goes, it seems like I can't go wrong with Miele. I want to do overlay panels...so, I am wondering, what's the best model? Anyone out there have an overlay-panel Miele? On a tangent (probably worth another post, so forgive me)...is there anyone who's NOT happy with an overlay on their dishwasher (like, does it come off after time?).

Thanks!
Jen

I have a 4-year old high-end KitchenAid (Architect series) and I can't wait to get rid of it.

I'm looking forward to the Miele Optima I just ordered but after reading this thread I now am concerned about installing it ourselves. I hope someone can respond to sklarewp about ease of installation.

I'm also interested in the comments by rococogurl about her whole house water softener and disabling the dishwasher's water softener. I'm wondering if we can disable it ourselves. Also, does everyone agree with hooking up a Miele to cold water rather than hot?

Thanks for any additional information you can provide,

Laura

Laura, our softener gives us a water hardness of 0. As a result, I never had a grain of salt in the Incognito but it's programmed to accept salt (this may have changed in newer models). I called Miele and they walked me through disabling the softener component over the phone. It took about 3 mins.

Originally, the plumber hooked the dw up to the hot water but it had ongoing drying issues. We hooked it up to the cold water and they increased the length of the final rinse (again by programming over the phone) and it has worked perfectly ever since. I use very little detergent -- half a Miele tab -- and run small loads occasionally with no detergent to clear things out. I had etched glassware with powder detergent but that has stopped with the tabs. Adjustments are needed when you have a whole house softener but they need to be customized and newer machines may compensate. Mine is an older model.

I'm getting a new Optima very soon in our apartment. Spoke with the plumber yesterday and he asked me cold or hot hookup. I'm going with cold since Optima has the china/crystal cycle, which I use a lot, and heats the water to the right temp. For me, it's counterintuitive to go with hot water cookup if you have a dw that heats water to a low temperature. However, I've read here that others have done hot water hook ups without incident.

Thanks so much for your quick response and clarifications, rococogurl. I feel better now knowing we can get Miele on the phone when we have questions too.

I didn't order any Miele tabs yet. We currently use the ones we get at Costco - Cascade or Electrasol. On one of these threads I read Mieles require a liquid rinse aid even when you use a dishwasher tab with a rinse aid ball in it. Do we need to change over to Miele tabs?

The Mieles depend on using rinse aid to help with the drying. I began with the Miele Somat brand thinking it would be "better." I bought some Jet Dry when the Somat ran out (it requires a trip to the hardware store vs the market) and could see no difference. I've continued with the Jet Dry.

I cannot answer questions about the Cascade and Electrasol balls in the Miele as I've never used those. I went from powder to the 1/2 Miele tabs to stop glassware etching. That happens from a combo of too much soap, very soft water and heat -- and with my particular softener the Incognito need an extra long, higher heat final rinse for drying.

There are no "musts" except the ones each house requires. The 1/2 Miele tabs work well for me but the balls work for others. For me, with my softener, I'd worry that the power balls have too much detergent and there's no way to reduce their size. I haven't tried them since I tend to go by the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" rule. And we don't have a Costco anywhere nearby.

I buy the tabs online. They come into line cost wise because I use halves. Don't know where cat mom is these days but think she did some experimenting. It's whatever works best for you and there's a wide variation from what I've seen seen posted here on this subject.

I'll be in the same boat as you with the new DW but no house softener and different water. LOL!

We have both brands of dishwashers in our households. Total of four, two Miele and two Bosch. There are pros and cons with both of them. With the Bosch, which we use daily, I feel I can get more dishes in the dishwasher than the Miele. However to get the dishes completely dry you have to crack the dishwasher open yourself immediately after it is done washing. the Bosch gets things much cleaner than the Miele as far as caked on food. The Miele on the other hand is just as wonderful as the Bosch but has a few extra features that I wish the Bosch had. The Miele when it is done washing has an arm that automatically opens the dishwasher to allow the dishes to dry. I have found on some occasions trouble with this because the arm does not always go back in and it takes several tries to get it fixed and back in order to run another load. However I love the fact that it has the utensil shelf, I feel like I get more utensils in the dishwasher with the Miele than the Bosch utensil basket and with a family of 7 I need to get as much washed in one load as possible. The Miele also has a funky bottom rack on the left side and is hard to load pots and pans because it seems as if it is made for square dishes and a cookie sheet behind it. Whereas with the Bosch you can just keep loading and loading and also change the layout of the rack with a couple of clicks on the top and bottom. Either dishwasher you go with you will be absolutely happy with. Both dishwashers are the best you can buy and the one feature about these two brands are that they actually heat their own water up before putting it on the dishes which helps to get them cleaner compared to other brands. If you have never had one or the other you won't even notice the differences between them.

I am looking at both both Bosch and Miele.

I am replacing GE Profile dishwasher which is only 4 years old. It had etching problem with my glassware. The service guy told us to use less detergent. We do hava whole house dishwasher. The dishwasher broke a hinge and cannot be repaired.
I read on forums that Bosch has smaller interior as the walls are thicker and is awkward to load. I did not hear that in this thread.
It also seems to me that cold water hookup is the way to go.
I was considering getting Miele that had a built in softner. However most of the folks here actually disabling the water softner. Should I go with a cheaper model which does not have a water softner.

The model I am close to buying it is Miele G2183SCSF

Let me know if you have any suggestions.

Well..... I've had a mile G851 SC Plus for ten years. I've done everything by the book, and used only approved detergents, salts, etc. I've spent approximately $800 in repairs, and today I've decided to replace it with a Bosch. What a disappointment considering the purchase price. In my house and vacation house I have several top of the line name brand appliances. The only repairs I've made on any are the Miele. Furthermore, in our area only one guy repairs the thing so there's a problem right there. In addition, I've been waiting on a replacement part for two and a half months - thus the decision to tear the thing out of my kitchen.

Patsy - spatulas fit on the upper tray - but soup ladles won't - I just put in the main section.

Just be aware that Juliakate signed up today, and for her first post resurrected this thread from 2008-09 to bash Miele cause her 10-year-old DW has problems which she does not explain.

(A2gemini, Patsy asked that question in May-09, and it looks like Antss responded at that time)

"In my house and vacation house I have several top of the line name brand appliances." relevance ?
you are special, maybe have your maid do the clean up

I was curious as to why this old post is open again...