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Culinarian and cooking rice

Posted by TonySak (My Page) on
Tue, Mar 8, 11 at 12:56

So I am leaning toward the Culinarian than the Thermador range top. Without seeing the Culinarian personally.

My only concern with the Culinarian is how the large burner does with smaller pots. In my mind, the simmer with smaller pots would be much hotter on a 23k burner than a 18k burner.

Has anyone had any trouble cooking (simmering) a single box of rice on the Culinarian with 5.5" pot? (thats what me and my wife always use).


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Tony

THis may well be dumb questions....

How much rice in oz are we talking about?


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

I cook Basmati rice in a 2qt pan, using only enough water to cover the rice. I bring it to a boil and then turn the heat down to the lowest possible simmer, seal the pan with foil and put a lid on top. I do this so that the rice is basically steamed. I tried this on my Culinarian (23K burners) and it didn't work. I am very disappointed with the simmer settings on the Culinarian. The rice burned on the bottom of the pan. Also, at the lowest simmer setting the ignitors are constantly firing. I think a lower BTU burner would be much better for this application. Another option that might work would be to raise the pan higher from the flame, using some sort of add-on grate that sits on the existing grate.


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RE: Culinarian Simmer - Rice, Pudding Ect. Questions

Trevor: Not a dumb question, you probably by rice by the 50lb bag. My wife buys the 5oz bags of rice at the supermarket.

Does anyone have any experience trying to make the following on a Culinarian:

* 1 x 3.4oz box of jello pudding
* Home made caramel or other candy (assuming it needs low simmer)
* Most manufacturers show chocolate being melted, but can it keep it melted without burning?

maybe there is a better low and slow simmer test? idk

Trevor, I'm not asking for you to try any or all this stuff. I'm hoping other people chime in with experience. I have a 8month old, so I see lots of different simmer cooking in the future. I like high end but i need practical too.

Ecranny:
thanks for chiming in. You basically mentioned my 2 concerns, which is basically "is it practical for small volume cooking?" and "how good is the simmer?" Which is what I'm trying to figure out. I wonder if a simmer plate would help? or double stacking a grate?


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

We have the new burners one our range and on Sunday a lady held a ver blanc sauce for over 35 mins with out splitting, I have spoken to ecranny and he has the old burners ( new ones will be shipping)


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

whats the difference between the new and old burners?


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

I can't comment on those burners, but I have gone to cooking rice in a pressure cooker, in a small stainless steel mixing bowl. White rice done in 5 minutes, brown in 10, wild rice a bit more. Before pressure cooking, I would never plan ahead far enough to cook brown rice.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Until Culinarian offers a distinct burner with fewer holes, and gas orifice, this is going to be a problem. The earliest introduction had such a burner, but they seem to have abandoned it for all burners the same size...


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Get a diffuser...it was good enough for Julia Child and it is good enough for anyone that wants a true simmer. Never worry about scorched anything ever again.

Get a Hitachi rice cooker...option 2....they work beautifully . We have used ours for over 20 years...same one and we never ever have to worry about whether it will be perfect. Hope this helps. c


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

The revised burner has been on all ranges manufactured this year. It cleared two issues

1) clicking on low setting.
2) flame could be set lower for simmering.

As I stated in a previous post above, according to a customer who cooked this weekend if you can hold a ver blanc sauce for 35 mins it will simmer anything. But everyone will have there own opinions about how well the range simmers and what a simmer is.

I also agree with Trailrunner a simmer plate / diffuser is not a bad idea for any range.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Our range has the new burners.

We've cooked white, brown, red and wild rice on it without any issue.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

thanks everyone. For the poster who suggested buying a rice cooker, its not just rice. Its any low simmer. When buying a $3k unit, you would think it could do the same job as a $500 unit on low.

Also Red Rice?

You would think instead of saying 140 degrees inside the pot, manufacturers would give the temp rating right at the grate. This would allow more apples to apples.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Tony,

Have you given consideration to a BlueStar? They have a dedicated simmer burner(which I simply adore), and I can tell you when the low flame is properly adjusted and you raise the cooking grate to the highest setting (on a bluestar you have 3 height settings for your burner grates) you will not be able to burn anything.

I was a bit disappointed to see Capital abandon their simmer burner. No matter what, you can not defy physics...the more ports you have on your burner the hotter the simmer will be(ceteris paribus).


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

I did, and i liked the ideas of just 2 x 22k burners. It seems much more practical. For about the same price though, I haven't heard 1 complaint about Capital, I have heard lots of complaints on Blue Star. I do like the igniters better on the capital too. Burners aside, and just judging by videos, the capital looks much better made.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Tony, it would be worth your while to see any range or rangetop that you are seriously considering working in real life before making a decision. Touching, handling, seeing the grates, disassembling them and putting them back together, seeing the flames, experiencing how much control you get on each burner, seeing the oven and the racks and how they work -- there are so many important things that you just cannot assess until you are actually hands-on.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

I have the CC with the new burners and the simmer is very low. Imagine tiny nubs of flames on each flame port. It did require an adjustment to get it that low but that's typical to get the lowest simmer. I've made sweet(round), jasmine, basmati, and others in both white and brown varieties with no issues. Get the new burners and readjust the simmer levels if you are having problems. It really does go pretty low. I do not find it any better or worse than the BS simmer burner was.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

as i read the first few posts i was going to say.. use a simmer plate... but as i read all the way down maybe one wont need the simmer plate with the new burners...

I cannot wait to get my hands on the culinarian.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

A customer sent me this today after i explained this thread to him, he seems to have a better grasp of english than myself as I was struggling to put this into words .....LOL, (his comparison is to the Wolf all gas simmer)

Customer Observations.

Compared to 500 BTU from a small burner, the Culinarian's 2000 BTU spread over a large area means less temperature but more heating potential. For a large pan, this means more heating. For a small pan (ie, equal or less than the burner diameter), it means less temperature, less heating. The 2" diameter flame at 500BTUs is much hotter (in temperature) than the 6" diameter flame at 2000BTU.

For example, with my 2" turkish coffe pot, the culinarian at 2000BTU is very gentle. I heat 1/4 cup of water to boiling in 10 minutes at medium heat. The 2" pot covers about 1/6th of the burner area, so I would guess that its seeing 300-400BTU at most. The remaining 1600-1700BTUs are simply going into the room.

For a large pan, eg steaming rice, the 2000 BTUs do get coupled into the pan. But since the heat is very distributed, you don't get hot-spots or burning, but a gentle, uniform heat.

The trick to using the burner effectively is to use a large diameter pan if you want all the BTUs, but a small diameter pan if you want less heat.

Also, compared to the advantage of having the 23K BTU when you need it, using a cast iron simmer plate is not a problem when the absolute minimum of heat is required.

I cook rice on the culinarian all the time. The trick is learning to turn the heat off earlier in the process and letting the steaming phase go a bit longer. If I'm using a high quality metal pan, I just offset the rice to the side of the burner. The thick metal pan distributes the heat.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

I think what my customer is saying above can be seen here in a visual format. While the Culinarian has a higher Btu heat on the simmer setting, said heat is spread out over an area 23 times larger than the wolf's simmer setting for instance, which granted has a lower btu rating, that is why the Culinarian low simmer works.

Did I agree with Capitals decision to move away from the 23k 15k and 8k burner configuration..NO I DID NOT AGREE... having said that since the change I have come to endorse the change because the simmer works...

Do I see it as a major problem or even a minor issue again NO I DO NOT. The only problem we had with the simmer burner was the clicking on it's lowest setting which is possibly one of the most irritating noises know to man.

To avoid the clicking people turned the burner up to stop the clicking which then burnt things like rice and such.

The new burners addressed this problem very successfully, the problem clicking has been resolved and the need to use a higher setting when simmering no longer exists.

Culinarian

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Wolf

Photobucket

If this does not explain what I mean, I just wasted 45 mins of my live......lol


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Thanks guys. It makes sense. Trevor, thanks for the visual, a better example would have been by making M&M cookies. The Culinarian could have had lots of M&Ms in it. The Wolf could have had 5 m&ms in the center. Then at least after 45 min you could eat cookies!

Thanks for everyone time. I am not a cook by any means, so I just want to make sure this doable for us.

We break ground in 2 weeks. Trevor once we get a little closer I'd like to come down to check it out. Its funny if they had 2 of the 6 burners smaller, this would be an easy decision.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Its funny, too bad Capital couldn't offer 1 smaller diameter burner assembly for the sake of not having to burn extra gas while cooking with smaller pots.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

These explanations given above are good salesmanship but really not logical. The small pan will just have hotter sides, and small pans of food will burn, compared to smaller burners. The outer circles of flames are close enough to the center to effect pan heat.

Only setting a high quality pan off center will (may) work. On many pans, the sides are thinner, and they will develop a hot spot. It is indeed true that a cheap gas range will simmer better than the Capitol Culinarian. That's the sad truth. And a dedicated small burner (like the 8K they had) is the answer-even the mid sized burner would be better.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Trevor: In light of the discussions above and the controversy of Capitol going to all 23K burners on the Culinarian I would recommend you have a SERIOUS discussion with Mr. Kalsi about building a dedicated, true low heat, simmer burner which would be an option on new Ranges/Range Tops and available for retrofit on the current all 23K units. I think this would resolve what some see as the biggest problem with the Culinarian - whether it actually is or not.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Curious, has anyone considered just picking a hob on the Culinarian to serve as a dedicated simmer burner? All you would have to do is identify which burner you wanted to derate. Then just plug all the outer rings of the burner with some potter's clay. Just be sure to leave the inner ring and the flame port adjacent to the flame sensor/ignitor unobstructed.

Plug the holes and it should make a nice little simmer burner. I sure do like having that smaller burner on my Bluestar. It makes Hollandaise making a heck of a lot less stressful and I can put a red sauce on it and leave it for as long as I want without having to worry about burning.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

IceMan.... I agree 100%, I will do all I can.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

mojavean,plugging the holes will make the gas flames turn into little jets on high, with certain problems, unless they change the amount of gas going to the burner (the orifice). IceMan and Trevor have the right idea, and perhaps with Trevor's influence, we'll see a smaller burner in the future.

These smaller burners shouldn't be called 'simmer' burners anyhow, their purpose is for smaller amounts of food, and smaller pots. Even Capital's 15K burner would be a good versatile choice as it would get rid of the outer ring of flames and reduce both the low and high output by a third at least.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Alexr, you are right, of course. Optimally, you would swap out the burner orifice to match the burner ports. But you could *get away* without that so long as you kept the gas dialed down.

As far as not calling it a simmer burner, I sort of disagree. The one on my Bluestar is perfect for simmers. Yes, it is ideal for smaller pots and so forth, but it works just as well on my 7.5 skillet when I just want to keep the chile at serving temp while I finish another dish.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

I have the replacement burners and they do fix the ignitors clicking at the low setting, but the burners still is to hot even when the flame is barely on. I think if they had a replacement burner with just the inner holes it would fix this. You can turn the burner down further with an ajustment screw inside the knob if to much gas is coming out. Until then I would suggest a simmer plate.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

I know this forum is filled with sealed burner haters, but I can tell you from personal experience that the simmer on the DCS dual stacked burners is phenomenal and every burner has it. I've also never had any issues with the high heat either - I stir fry regularly and have not had any problems with the 17.5K or 16K burners doing an excellent stir fry. Would it work better on an open 23K burner - maybe. I've been following the CC with interest in case I eventually need to replace the DCS but I'm a little disappointed by it's apparent lack of a great simmer - particularly since these are the same people who originially designed the DCS burner.

By the way, I use a rice cooker for doing rice and haven't tried it on the cooktop, but I'm fairly confident that the low simmer would do just fine - I've let metled butter on it by accident and it hasn't burned.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

I should note that my previous range was a Wolf dual fuel with sealed burners and the Culinarian is a much better range. I love the Culinarian!


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

I've also never had any issues with the high heat either - I stir fry regularly and have not had any problems with the 17.5K or 16K burners doing an excellent stir fry

To paraphrase an old Mexican saying--- Those that do not know God will kneel to any idol. lol


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

deeageaux - you're a real a$$hole - I've eaten in some of the best Chinese restaurants in Beijing and Hong Kong as well as in the United States and have been cooking Chinese food for years and I'll put my stir fry up against anything you can cook on an open burner.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Been lurking on this forum for a while during the decision making process on some remodeling, and just took delivery of a 30" Culinarian this past week and had it installed on Friday.

I've adjusted the air shutters in accordance with Trevor's videos, and while the high flame seems to be proper on most of the burners, the simmer on a couple of them seems a bit too hot and I experience intermittent ignitor clicking on all four burners during simmer.

I was wondering if anyone could tell me how to determine if I have the new or old burners, and if there's some adjustment to make other than the air valve? FWIW, my burners have the metal disc in the center of the burner below the ignitor.

Thanks!


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Trevor, having seen you and others recommend a simmer plate, I think it would be a useful demonstration to center one on BS's simmer burner at lowest setting for say 10 minutes and measure surface temp with an infrared thermometer, then do the same on a CC. No pots involved.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Been lurking on this forum for a while during the decision making process on some remodeling, and just took delivery of a 30" Culinarian this past week and had it installed on Friday.
I've adjusted the air shutters in accordance with Trevor's videos, and while the high flame seems to be proper on most of the burners, the simmer on a couple of them seems a bit too hot and I experience intermittent ignitor clicking on all four burners during simmer.

I was wondering if anyone could tell me how to determine if I have the new or old burners, and if there's some adjustment to make other than the air valve? FWIW, my burners have the metal disc in the center of the burner below the ignitor.

Thanks!

You have the new burners. If it's clicking you really can't go any lower. I would readjust the air shutters. I did it at high and also at simmer and tried to find a happy medium.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

"You have the new burners. If it's clicking you really can't go any lower. I would readjust the air shutters. I did it at high and also at simmer and tried to find a happy medium."

Thanks for the info. Do you find that it is easy to physically adjust your air shutters? In Trevor's videos, he's able to easily rotate the shutters while the burner sits in place, and he's able to lift and remove the burner without effort.

On my range, three of the four burners fit so snugly to the brass gas outlet that I'm unable to rotate the shutter without removing the burner, and the burner requires a good bit of effort to pull loose from the outlet.

It makes the adjustment process fairly difficult and time consuming to test, remove, adjust, test, wait to cool, remove, adjust, and repeat. The one burner that does turn and detach freely has a much higher flame than the rest and can't be adjusted down to the same level as the others.

Ultimately, the only adjustment that resulted in the tight blue flame that Trevor demonstrates in his video was opening the shutters as much as they would go, and I'm not sure what impact that has on the simmer ability.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

you can adjust the gas flow to the burners,

1) Turn the burner on to simmer
2) Pull the knob off
3) insert an optical screwdriver into the tiny hole between the two prongs that hold the knob on.
4) turn the screwdriver until you feel it slot into the straight head of the screw.
5) hold the prongs with your fingers to make sure they dont turn when you turn the screwdriver.
6) turn the screwdriver, watch for the flame go higher and lower,
7) turn the screwdriver unitl the flame goes really low and you see hear the burner continually click.
8) turn the screw VERY slowly until it stops clicking.

Try this with a pan on the burner on off.

Once the burner stops clicking that's as low as it will go.

Clearly this is done at your risk, having said that i have never know anyone damage anything by resetting the gas flow this way.

NEW BURNER (Disk in center)

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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Since the DCS was mentioned with the dual stack burners I can say multiple times I have made brown rice for 2 servings and keep it on simmer on my DCS for up to 1/2 hour. No further cooking or sticking. I have done the same with mashed potatoes. I love having dual stacked simmer on all of the burners of the DCS range. Not comparing it to the culinarian, it wasn't available 2 1/2 yrs ago. At the time I bought it I wanted a Wolf but it right in the middle of the major burner problem Wolf had.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

foodonastump... Test results you asked for.

Capital Culinarian 23k btu burner...Simmer plate temp after 15 mins 244.7 degrees

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Bluestar..... 8k btu simmer plate temp after 15 mins 206.5 degrees

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Part of our testing today included cooking rice which we filmed. We cooked

Jasmine Rice (1 cup rice to 2 cups of water)
Basmati Rice (1 cup rice to 2 cups of water)
Long Grain Rice (1 cup rice to 2 cups of water)
Brown Rice (1 cup rice to 2 1/2 cups of water)

All rice came out fine with no burning at all. While we did not have any problems today I have spoken to the factory and backed that conversation up with an email which included a link for this thread.

Should any of Eurostoves past, current or future customers have a particular problem with simmering on the Culinarian, please send me an email with name and address details and we will send you a simmer plate at no cost to you in an effort to alleviate a simmer problem you might be having.

It should be noted that simmering temps actually relate to the temp of the food not the pan. We did another test where we boiled 1 gallon of water then let it simmer for 5 hours if i recall correctly and the water sat at 157 degrees well within the accepted range for simmering.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

I should note that while I'm experiencing simmer clicking on the burners, and a couple of them seem to simmer hotter than the others, we cooked rice three times this weekend (brown, basmati, and calrose) and had no issues with burning.

We used Calphalon Commercial hard anodized pots and the rice came out perfectly every time, even on one of the burners that seems to have a hotter simmer.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Trevor - Thanks for the quick and forthcoming response, esp. considering you'd have probably preferred opposite results.

IMO out of top end, low end and heat distribution, the low end simmer would be my least concern on a gas range since there are several ways around it as long as it's within reason. America's Test Kitchen offers as simple a solution as roll up a ring of aluminum foil and place it on the grate in order to raise the pot. Hey, whatever works. But anyway, since many of these brands advertise their low simmer, I think this is useful information. Thanks again!


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Just as a matter of interest the Wolf all gas simmer was 221.4 degrees


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

I uploaded a video today to show the results of our rice cooking yesterday, for right now its on "You Tube" we will add it to the website for everyone to see later today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBUYj9yHy78

Foodonastump... I expected the test results to be what they were with Bluestar having a lower temperature on the simmer plate, having said that I hope we have proved you can simmer on the Culinarian. We are running more tests today.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

" * deeageaux (My Page) on
Sat, Mar 12, 11 at 18:07
To paraphrase an old Mexican saying--- Those that do not know God will kneel to any idol. lol"

Yes I suppose your saying is true. lol
Burners with 16-17.5---> 22-23 K BTU are generally in the same neighborhood in the scheme of things.
You need to look at a real wok burner if you want to see an appreciable difference. 100K+ some as high as 250K.

a fire breathing dragon-

Here is a link that might be useful: Wok Hei


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

"It should be noted that simmering temps actually relate to the temp of the food not the pan. We did another test where we boiled 1 gallon of water then let it simmer for 5 hours if i recall correctly and the water sat at 157 degrees well within the accepted range for simmering."

I am assuming the 157 is the cullinarian?---So about a difference of 87 degrees between the simmer plate and the gallon of hot water.

I lost the "simmer race" to Mojavean's Bluestar. I simmered 8 cups (half gallon)for several hours and the water was 119 degrees F (alto I chose a temp setting of
1 instead of 0, on the Elux Induction)

From Memory (dangerous), I think Mojavean did 112 F ,so we adds about 87 F to that and we come up with 199F hot plate temp, pretty close to your "206F" so this matches the data that Mojavean was able to obtain with his simmer burner.

I think you have more than proven that the "Cull can Simmer" but for the "Doubtin' Thomasses" here, I hope Mr Kalsi does take you up on your suggestion for a smaller burner, maybe optional---if for nothing else just to keep the "Flack Down'

Thanks for an honest and informative post, (I keep telling other "sales/service types" here on GW to read your post----They might learn something----Ya Thinks????

Gary


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Thanks trevor. it didn't look like the flames shot over the 6.5" pan either.


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Link help:

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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Trevor: Thanks for a posting the actual results of a "Real World" test which tend to bear out the concerns of several folks on the forum. My following remarks are meant to be constructive and in no way "Throwing bricks at you or Mr. Kalsi".

The Eurostove web site claims for the Culinarian include "Low Simmer 138". The Capitol website states "True Simmer of 145". Your latest test shows the Culinarian low simmer to actually be 244.7.

I disagree with your statement "It should be noted that simmering temps actually relate to the temp of the food not the pan." That would be entirely dependent on the size of the pan, thickness of the pan's bottom and sides and the amount of food in the pan. A heavy, thick stock pot with a gallon of water would yield a lower temp than a 4", thin bottom pan with 2 Oz of liquid . I would think and expect if the Culinarian is advertised to simmer at say 150 then that would be the maximum temperature a pan or simmer plate would get.

How important is this difference in the advertised capability of the Culinarian and its actual capability in daily cooking - I would think not much. Would it keep me from purchasing a Culinarian - absolutely not. However, and I am not an engineer, there is a very simple and inexpensive solution that would solve all of the actual and perceived problems with the Culinarian simmer.

Simply have a "Bonnet", or whatever the top of the burner is called, manufactured with ALL of the holes in the outer two rings filled or not drilled leaving only the inner ring of holes open and then match the burners orifice/jet to match the reduced number/area of the "Bonnets" holes to yield a 5K to 7K burner. I have never seen a Culinarian burner and I am assuming the orifice/jet is removable.

If this were done Capitol and/or Eurostove could offer a Culinarian customer one "Bonnet" and orifice/jet at no cost or very little cost. Any additional "Simmer Kits" could be sold at a reasonable cost to those what need/want more than one simmer burner. Making a "True" simmer burner is not rocket science or expensive.

Again, my comments are not meant to be malicious in any way and are provided to help improve the product.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Burners with 16-17.5---> 22-23 K BTU are generally in the same neighborhood in the scheme of things

Nonsense.

A sealed burner is about 28% efficient. The Culinarian 23K open burner is 52% efficient.

Not same neighborhood. Not same city.

If I could safely and within reasonable cost ventilate a 200k wok burner inside my house I would get one.

I grill outside. I don't want to do all my cooking outside.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Trevor,

Will you throw a bag (1lb)of chocolate chips on a burner to melt them and keep melted for about 30 min?

My wife makes a lot of chocolate dipped treats and melts a lot of chocolate. I have seen this test with all the other manufacturers just not capital. The dual ring sealed burners and the BS smaller burners have no issue with this. Since the CC burns hotter I'm not sure how this will turn out.

Also, sorry, when I originally started this post, I was just trying to get some real world experience input on the CC and not start a witch hunt. Thanks for your participation in the thread.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Tony,
You keep referring to the smaller burner wasting less gas but I honestly think that the amount of gas (if any) you would save is negligible.

I will admit that when I got the new burners, I left the old small burner I had on there for my smallest pans. This was more due to the diameter of heat rather than simmer. After reading this thread, I had a couple of chances to make rice and simmer some sauces and found that the properly adjusted new 23k burners maintained a lower simmer than the small burner. Next weekend, I plan on replacing that burner and orifice to the 23k as a result. Now, if they had a small burner that had the center plate and better positioned ignitor like the new 23k burners, I suspect my results would have been slightly different. As it stands however, the new 23k burners maintained a low enough simmer that it doesn't matter to me.

Frankly, I find that the the 23k burners when turned down about half way cover the bottom of my smallest pan (about 5") just fine with very little side heating. That's certainly more heat output than the small burner on high.

Finally, I'd just like to remind everyone that about 2-3 years ago this forum was filled with discussions comparing Wolf with BS. The key points were BS are open burners but Wolf has "more versatile" burners because they were the same all around. As with any other product "feature", it's only a feature if the consumer in question wants it. I think Capital has done a great job with their burner fix and the current 23k burners are almost as hot as a restaurant range and the simmer is lower than I was able to get on the small burner on my BS without clicking. In my book, that's pretty much perfect.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Thanks amcook. I only mentioned the waste of gas/space once. After seeing videos, i agree that the flame doesn't spill out over a smaller pan to much.

after trevor's temperature test its obvious the the CC burns 36 degrees hotter than a small BS burner, on the lowest setting. All I'm after is to make sure this range can do everything i would ever need it to do, as advertised.


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paper

or maybe 36 degrees doesn't matter since it doesn't burn paper.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice


" * Posted by deeageaux (My Page) on
Tue, Mar 15, 11 at 2:53

Burners with 16-17.5---> 22-23 K BTU are generally in the same neighborhood in the scheme of things

Nonsense.

A sealed burner is about 28% efficient. The Culinarian 23K open burner is 52% efficient.

Not same neighborhood. Not same city."


The burner rating is expressed in BTUs(shortened from BTUs/hour), and reflects the output of the burner. It is a unit of heat.
Generally, a BTU is defined as amount of heat required to raise the temperature of one 1 pound (0.454 kg) of liquid water by 1 degree F (0.556 degree C) at a constant pressure of one atmosphere.

Efficiency relates to percent of combustion to obtain that heat.
A 16K burner puts out 16K and a 23K puts out 23K assuming the ratings are accurate. If Culinarian has a higher efficiency then it requires less gas to produce a BTU.

In considering what heat actually makes it to your food, you would further consider
cooking vessel-heat conductivity,shape,thickness, how much is going around the pan?
cooking platform-height, shape, heat conductivity
shape/configuration of burner
personal cooking style
food you are cooking, shape size, fluids
fuel pressure

At any rate 16-23k BTUs is roughly 10 percent of what you can get with a real wok burner. They are limited by being residential ranges.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Ice man..... Can you tell me where you see the temp ratings on the website, these are the temps when the Culinarian had 8k and 15k burners.

TonySak.... I will do that test for you but I would say it is the wrong way to melt chocolate, chocolate should be double boiled. I would be very surprised if the Bluestar or wolf could hold chocolate for 30 mins without standing and stirring constantly. where as double boiled would sit for hours with no burning or stirring

At the end of the day this like all other ranges is not a perfect range, perfection is unobtainable for so many different people. Again like all other ranges this is a hunk of metal, YOU the consumer has to adapt your style of cooking what do I mean by that

1) If you want to melt chocolate do it with a double boiler.
2) If you want to simmer a very small amount of sauce in a 4" pan use a simmer plate
3) If you have a 3" coffee pot use a plate.
4) If you want 30lb of turkey... cook two 15lbs turkey at the same time.

And so on.



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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Trevor, though I hold you in high regard I am going to have to raise the bullshizzle flag on this one. I think I can do every single one of those things on my Bluestar without any problem except for the coffee pot thing. You see, I just don't have a 3" coffee pot. Although there is some disagreement in official circles as to exactly how big my coffee pot is:

Photobucket

I think my coffee pot is too large to qualify for the test. However, I can probably test everything else out except for maybe the 30lb Turkey.

Although I am sure I could fit one of those into my Bluestar, around here once a Turkey reaches 30 pounds it automatically wins the Republican Primary for our California Assembly slot and becomes ineligible for dinner.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Well, ya lucky Mojavean, The "Turkeys" that are in high positions in our state Govt as well as our State & US Senators & Now Minority Spokes person all are considerable over 30 lbs and they are all hens, If you think a 30Lb turkey "leaves a Mess"---just look at what these Bigger Things did to
"Fowl Us UP" !!!!!

Too bad the Republicans chose to run turkeys too for the
Senate, and Govenor!

I was really hoping , in my life time I would see Boxer go Down!!! I guess it's not to be! Well at least she came in handy Larning Chairman Mao, Castro, as well as Russian and
North Vietman & North Korea How to be Left.

Been following her since I was a young kid, and she to the Left of all of those!!!

To get back "On Point"!!!!!

hmmmmm, they have those Shrimp Boils or whatever ya calls them. Lets circle up all our Wolves, Cullies, BlueStars, what have ya and Let's Do a "Real Turkey Boil"!!!!!
Throw the turkeys in from both parties, and the cr--
that has "Risen to the top" along with it!

Gary


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

mojavean.... Not sure I said the bluestar could not do all the things listed above, if that is what came across I apologize for that.

The point I was trying to make was IF someone finds the CC won't do something, there is away around a problem. I have yet to come across any thing the CC can not do, but time will tell. Maybe the chocolate will burner to the base of the pan for tonight's video who knows.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

North Korea? Chairman Mao? Gary, I think you need to check your induction cooktop for gas leaks!


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Hold that chocolate.

Trevor, you said you would be surprised if a Bluestar could hold a pound of chocolate for 30 minutes. Since I can not only hold, but can probably devour a pound of chocolate in 30 minutes without the help of any range, I see no reason why my Bluestar cannot hold a pound for thirty minutes. In any case, when I get home I think I will run a test to see if I can do it. If nothing else, it might help you convince Kalsi to put a damned simmer burner on those ranges of his. Jeez, he's charging enough for them; it ought to at least be an option.

Lastly, I do hope you will realize that I hold Eurostoves, its owner, and the Capital Culinarian Range in the highest regard possible and I am only snooty about my Bluestar because I have confirmation-bias and it's happy hour in Fresno.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

This forum needs a like button so i can like Mojavean's last comments.

I know about double boilers. If you do it, make sure you compare it to BS smaller burner.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

mojavean.. I have absolutely no problem with anything you say at all, after reading your posts for years now i too hold you in high regard.

The reason I said that I doubt even a bluestar will hold chocolate for 30 mins is that everyone says tells me it's hard to melt chocolate without burning it, but having never melted chocolate before i haven no idea what will happen.


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RE: Trevor and Amcook question

Chocolate melting can be a difficult subject. Look up conching and tempering chocolate sometime. And be sure to raise the Bluestar grate to it's highest position.

Now, my question for Trevor and Amcook, concerning the Culinarian, why not install the new (non-clicking-better-lower simmer flame 23K burner) but just the lower half and use the older 8K burner top and brass orifice? I am guessing the flow of the gas in the lower half of the burner is designed the same.. if so, you should now be able to set the flames on low to be smaller and still have fewer flames and a lower simmer.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Chocolate should be melted in a double boiler. That is standard practice for any pastry chef. I don't care if you are trying to melt chocolate with a Culinarian, Bluestar, Wolf or a hotpoint.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Results are in .......Wolf vs BS vs CC melting chocolate useing the smallest burner on the lowest setting from beginning to end.

Method
1 x lbs Chocolate
1 x 7 1/2" fissler saucepan
Stirred once at 15 mins
End time 30 mins

The result... ALL ranges melted chocolate without burning of any kind to the base of the pan or chocolate.

As for the double broiling pan as you would expect no issues what so ever, took a little longer to melt but no burning.

Alexr...never tried it but sounds like it might work, I heard of a customer who told me he used the new burner with the 8k btu orifice and filled in the two outer set of holes with exhaust gunk, then blackened with something.

Eurostoves or Capital would NEVER recommend this and it would of course involve possible warranty issues down the road.

We made a video of the above test which will be posted on the Culinarian website tomorrow for future customers reference.

Again no problem with the Culinarian simmer abilities.

BTW... I am sick of eating rice and chocolate, anyone want me to simmer a nice juicy steak :) .......lol


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Trevor: The Low Simmer 138 degree temperature I quoted was from the Eurostove's Home Page http://www.eurostoves.com/ That temperature may have been for the Culinarian when it was originally produced with the 15K and 8K burners, but how do I as a consumer know that?

The True Simmer of 145 degree is from the 36" self cleaning range product info sheet on the Capitol Web Site: http://capital-cooking.com/product/382

I still say this simmer debate may be just an academic discussion that has very little impact on most Culinarian users, but it has sparked a heated discussion of what the real capabilities of the Culinarian are.

Can you work around this using things like a simmer plate -sure, but the info on both the Eurostove's and Capitol's web sites imply the Culinarian has a true simmer capability of 138 degrees or 145 degrees without any work a rounds including using a simmer plate.

138 or 145 is a long way from 244.7.

I for one appreciate your willingness to engage in conversations like this - Thanks.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

I just put about 1/8 tsp of water in a 1/4 tsp metal measuring spoon and held a cigarette lighter under it. 18 seconds to boil.

Does this mean my lighter boils water faster than any range discussed around here? Of course not. It means that any quote like this is meaningless marketing propaganda unless the test variables are spelled out so that we can make true comparisons.

I don't for a second doubt that a CC can hold water at 138 deg, even though Trevor's simmer plate got to 244.7. Just a matter of the pot, what's in it and how much.

I doubt that we're going to see Consumer Reports do side-by-sides of CC, BS, DCS, Wolf, etc. anytime soon, so Trevor's experimental data is probably the best apples to apples we can hope for. I say we should thank him for that.

p.s. Let's not lose sight of the fact that at sea level "true simmer" is in the 195 to 211 deg F range. Anything below that is "truly not yet at simmer" and anything above is "truly boiling."


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

"I just put about 1/8 tsp of water in a 1/4 tsp metal measuring spoon and held a cigarette lighter under it. 18 seconds to boil."

There appears to be a lot of that going on out here in Fresno judging by the number of shopping carts out on the corners.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

wekick,
Although your definition of BTU/h is accurate, I believe standard practice in the industry is to measure input gas volume and convert to BTU (about 1000 BTU per cubic foot). I do not believe a manufacturer is required to use an efficiency factor since that can vary due to numerous factors. AFAIK, no manufacturer actually uses a water temperature rise test to measure BTU/h output.

alexr,
I had the same thought but the new burners have ignitors that are very tightly fitted. That plus the fact that the small burners are all early/first production run burners which are actually slightly different than the current burner assemblies makes it unlikely it will fit. There is a risk if the fit is not perfect for there to be gas leakage from between the top and bottom halves of the burner assembly. I may attempt to adjust the ignitor on my small burner to see if I can get it closer to the ignition port. If so, then I'll be able to tune that to a lower level.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Thanks Trevor! See those results weren't so bad. I just wanted to find out what was fact and what was fiction (if any) compared to other units. I can't wait to get one.

Capital should give you a cut of gross sales just for putting up with us.

I would like to see how well the CC can cook a pancake when the batter is poured directly on the open burner. Can you do this test and compare the CC the BS and a traditional toaster oven?


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

TonySak.... Not sure what you mean by "poured directly on the open burner"

IceMan.... I will have the numbers on the Eurostoves home page removed as soon as possible, I never thought to look on that page, and I agree they are misleading in light of Capitals decision to change the burners.

The "real capabilities of the Culinarian" have now been established, the Culinarian can simmer, as of right now it has passed all tests without the use of a simmer plate, my point about using a simmer plate is, a customer has an option to use one if necessary, would I use one for rice, melting chocolate and such no i would just do it on the burner.

when the numbers for the simmer burner were done by the factory and myself they related to internal water temp "138 or 145".. "244.7." is the plate temp plate temp, two completely different temperature ratings.

I always enjoy these discussion and running tests, discussion like these push manufacturers and retailers to achieve, it also allows people who read the GW to have a much higher level of knowledge so they can help the sales person out in the appliance stores they visit......lol


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

I was kidding :)


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

oh duh... sorry, to eager to test i guess...lol


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

So much for the rice.

This, for many here, is the most important test:

The Culinarian cooks grits to perfection.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

amcook, So you are saying BTU rating is strictly a calculated value? I wonder where efficiencies come from? I'm sure anyone who claims high effeciency will utilize that to make their calculations. It would be interesting to see INDEPENDENT, scientific data vs any manufacturer's calculations and tests that can be manipulated to place their product in the best light. I have heard some cast aspersions on the Culinarian's numbers in particular, but there really is no way of knowing how accurate and claims of BTUs and efficiency are on any burners. I think all of it is smoke and mirrors.

In my case it is irrelevant to my argument because we are comparing God to idols, and the difference is huge.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Wekick, I think efficiency with a gas stove is a moot point. A burner mixes oxygen with gas and an igniter lights that on fire. You got blue flame, thats about as efficient as you can get. Some stoves direct the btu's to the bottom center of the pan, some direct the flame to and around the sides.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize that directing the flame directly upwards and towards the bottom of the pan is probably more efficient than directing the flame towards the side of the pan.
From the standpoint of which stove turns the most potential btu's from the gas into an actual flame, they are pretty much all the same.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Ribs1,
There are many factors as listed in my post above that affect the way heat gets to a pan besides the BTU rating. Directing heat to the middle of the pan may be "efficient" but may not best for cooking in all situations. You could have one heck of a hot spot on a large cast iron frying pan, not so much on a copper pan though. In directing heat, you want to consider the size and composition of your pan if you are cooking with high heat. If you are saying that a sealed burner sends all the heat around the pot/pan, that would be more of an issue with a very small pan. I make caramel/candy frequently in a pan(the oldest Revere ware with the most copper) that is 7 inches in diameter on sealed burners and have no trouble with the sides getting hot. You can tell this right away. I have noticed it on a 1 qt pan though and use the smallest burner for that. Simmering is also a time when you want to disperse heat and not concentrate it to the center of the pan, hence a simmer plate.
It's just interesting that so much is made over calculations and theory. I have cooked on sealed and unsealed burners and really was surprised how well the sealed burners performed after reading so many comments about them.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

This is a very interesting thread. I'm going to check the temp. of my Culinarian on simmer.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

OK so I put 1/2" water in an 11" ss pan. I let it sit on simmer for 30 min. The water temp. ranged from 158 - 162 degrees. This was with the new burners.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Trevor: I am absolutely outraged at the way my new CC sitting in the mothballed livingroom cannot hold a simmer underneath the 3 lb steak my vegetarian child has left on its open burner. I'm pretty sure you need to test why a trussed machine cannot hold a flame compared with your cooking school's.... Please report back when you have been richly rewarded. Thank you. ;)


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

A sealed burner is about 28% efficient. The Culinarian 23K open burner is 52% efficient.

deeageaux - Just wondering where you got those figures? In Trevor's boil test between Culinarian and Dacor he took a gallon (8.34 lbs) of water from 74 to 212. Unless my math is wrong...

If 100% efficient that would take 1151 BTUs.

CC - 9:48
.163333 hours * 23000BTU/hr = 3756.67 BTUs
1151/3756.67 = 30.06% efficient

Dacor - 16:08
.268889 hours * 18000BTU/hr = 4840 BTUs
1151/4840 = 23.78

That would make the CC 26% more efficient. That's certainly not negligible, but nowhere near the 86% you're claiming.

p.s. Just for kicks I replicated the experiment as closely as I could at home on my lowly 2500W (8536 BTU) ceramic electric. 8.34 lbs as measured with a Salter digital scale, temps measured with a Thermapen, 10" diameter anodized aluminum stock pot, from a cold start on my cooktop.

Frigidaire - 12:51
0.214167 hours * 8536 BTU/hr = 1828 BTUs
1151/1828 = 62.96% efficient


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

I was at the Architectural Digest Design show yesterday and asked about the simmer and "rice effect". The rep from Alma said the burners could be easily adjusted to 145 degrees and not burn parchment paper for 20 min.
I am considering the cc as well and my family LOVES rice. Big deal for me.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

I just got the new burners and wanted to test how they would perform on simmer. With the old burners, I had to adjust my timing a bit, but rice worked fine once I shortened the boil and lengthened the steaming time.

With the new burners, I did this: heat a 5" saucier to boiling (100C, measured). Then turned the burner down to simmer. At 3 minutes from boil, it had cooled to 93C and was bubbling intermittently. At 6 minutes from boil, it had cooled to 91C with no bubbles.

Photobucket

Photobucket

Photobucket

I'll cook rice tonight, but I can't imagine any problem given how quickly the temperature dropped.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Glad I logged back in to GW!

I've been absent from these boards for a long time. I received a Culinarian in November but due to construction I didn't move into my kitchen until the end of February. I didn't want to worry until I had lived with the burners for a while, but I've been unable to get anything close to low heat or simmer... plus I had much more urgent issues to deal with after gutting the entire first floor of our house. Now I'm ready to tackle the Culinarian issues.

Looks like the "new" new burners must be the answer... time to call Trevor.

Like many of you are saying, if I could have a "dream" rangetop on my 30" range, it would be 3 of these big burners that also would simmer well, plus 1 burner with a smaller flame pattern. I find that the flames spread too wide when I use small pans. Sometimes you want a bunch of heat but are using a small pan. I find that's really difficult and I am not comfortable with flames leaping all around the outside of a small pan.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

zillapgh, that is the same point I made on another thread. Thanks for expressing it so well.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

Just want you all to know that I did contact Trevor and I'll be getting the updated burners. I am so excited for the upgrade! We are huge basmati rice eaters here and we like it on the dry side.

I love this forum - I always find someone with the exact question here, and I am really glad I ordered everything from Eurostoves. They behave much more like what we're supposed to find in "local" businesses than any of our "local" appliance places.


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RE: Culinarian and cooking rice

I have the new burners and I've cooked rice twice now.

I've done so in an enameled dutch oven with a tight lid, and using this recipe (cooking the same medium grain sushi rice):

http://justhungry.com/2003/11/japanese_basics_1.html

And I have to tell you I have cooked the rice just a bit too much both times.

I think it might have to do with the recipe.

This is meant to be dry, sticky, true Japanese-style rice. Not much moisture in the pain after the 10 minute simmer.

I'm not sure if it has to do with the pot. Would a stainless pot do better?

Next time, I'm going to try sitting the pot on top of a double burner grate stack and try adjusting the heat.

I suppose I could also adjust up the amount of water in the recipe, but I'm more hesitant to do that (this is a really perfect recipe, with just the right kind of sushi stickiness to it).

Will report back.


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