Return to the Appliances Forum | Post a Follow-Up

 o
Induction help

Posted by Noctua (My Page) on
Sat, Mar 30, 13 at 12:50

Look for the *** if you want the short version of my post.

Soon doing a major remodel/home reno.

I have been reading a lot about appliances here and on the web.

Have down loaded a few Owner manuals from manufacture sites. Have made my way to as many retailer/ showrooms as i can find. Review sites, youtube, forums ect.

I started looking at induction and in between watching water boil and eggs half cook the James bond like Seimans commercial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI_iP9gHdGc) catches my eye and i fall in love with zoneless hobs.

Naturally, i can not find a Siemens in Canada. Googling Zonless i get the Thermador the Gagganeau and the De Dietrich.

Of course the Therm and Gag are both the Same if you look closely. Just a little difference in the display items. Both have cool pot moving/sensing features and timers for each pot but both have the same 4 pot limit and the same power regulation issues across the "zones". The biggest difference seems to be the Gag does not try to pretend its a 36"

The Piano is sweet though, the 1 2 3 Zoning looks like a great easy mode and it can do 5 pots at once. The triangular induction coils look neat-o. Whats more i can't find any reviews on it so even it has issues i am blissfully unaware. Keeping it at my top spot even now. After seeing this http://www.graysonline.com/retail/BN-DTIM1000C/appliances-and-whitegoods/new-de-dietrich-90cm-zoneless-induction-cooktop-the-piano-dtim1000c Start thinking at that price i could live without house insurance, but even if that is true, I missed out as they are sold out.

So once reality starts to settle in about price, international certifications, property value and insurance coverage (being honest price was enough) start to realize that the thing I like most about these is the ability to run a set of 13" x 21" Teppan Yaki pans at the same time. And though the Zoneless thing is neat it even takes a back seat to the timers, timers that even though i am not certain i can live without are not why I love the device. Ahead of timers is also 5 "burners" and though i have never had a stove with 5 burners this is now the defacto minimum i can have and all time that has pasted before this can only be deemed a mistake that i should be punished for.

So, armed with knowledge about my own wants the hunt starts again. I find the KitchenAid/GenAir model with the Bridging Elements, The Wolf ,Meile, Viking, Windcrest with out bridge as well as many Euro units i can't have even if i want them.

The Wolf is definitely not Balanced enough, i like my controls in the center.

The Viking Has 6 zones but again not centered and big knobs will ruin the look. (I did think about this one for a while though)

Windcrest, besides never having heard of them, say they do not do any power sharing between elements.

*** I am leaning toward the KitchenAid 36 induction. I know it has only 1 timer that does not turn off the heat. I know it can not handle pots smaller than 6.5". Over all i am not enthralled with the Hob but it has my number one feature, the ability to do double griddles.

Does it matter if these are bridged? If i put a cast iron griddle over 2 elements with the Hob shutdown? I know some of my radiant elements do not like over-sized pots on the burner and shut down. I also know that the Hob does not like small diameters.

I like the Miele also but i don't know if it can run a 13" x 21" griddle on both(or either) the left and right sides. I read here many people like it and seems to not breakdown. The burners on the left are different sizes (looks like 6" and 9") With a thin pan this would be worse for heat distribution than cast iron, but may still be serviceable.

The Miele manual says "The cooking zone will not work
�" if there is no cookware, or unsuitable
cookware (items without a
magnetizable bottom) being used
�" if the bottom diameter of the
cookware being used is too small
�" if the cookware is removed from a
cooking zone that is on."

So it seems it should at least do a faux bridge mode. Which could be very acceptable. The only thing i dislike is the lack of symmetry, but function over form is mainly how i roll, if it was hot pink that may change but this is minor.

Could heating the top over such a large area be damaging to the unit? I read that the electronics inside need to be cooled well too.

Does anyone have experience with this cook-top for these purposes?

Any info/thoughts on this matter are appreciated.


Follow-Up Postings:

 o
RE: Induction help

There have been posts here that KitchenAid's induction is very noisy. Try to search for these threads before you settle on getting KitchenAid's induction.

More generally, it would be very good if you are able to actually see and use some of these units at a store somewhere, so you can see, hear, and experience what its like to actually cook stuff on various induction hobs.

I'm not clear why you need to have five hobs. You may want to re-think how imperative that really is. How many mouths are you feeding there?

As for bridging, the main concern is heating the top of a cooktop over a large area for a long time, and thus overheating / damaging the electronics below. So it will depend on what you are cooking on the bridged hobs. It is one thing to poach salmon over two hobs for a few minutes; that's probably fine. Very different to sear meat on power boost for an extended period. What are you looking to cook here?

The information you quoted from the Miele manual is typical for most other induction units as well.

As for Gagg and Thermador zoneless units, my understanding is that this was developed by Gagg, and they let Thermador use the technology provided that Thermadore put it in the larger size so as not to compete with Gagg's 30" product. In other words, Thermador sells a 30" induction unit packed into a 36" size.

Zoneless may be what you want, but that does appear to mean giving up on this nonsense about having to have 5 hobs.

Hope this helps...


 o
RE: Induction help

Don't get a KA unless you don't mind annoying repetitive noises. Please see my old post on this, and a more recent agreement from another KA owner. There's also a You Tube Video of a poor guy who has an incredibly noisy KA induction cooktop - way worse than mine.

I do like the bridge burner. I use it for pan gravy and with my fish poacher, so not very often. I can't find a lightweight nonstick double burner griddle that is induction capable. When I was looking in 2011, I found a few discussions of whether two hobs on other units could be bridged. Some can, some can't.

I got the KA because of the bridge burner and also because it didn't have much in the way of required clearances - I could install it where I needed it to be with a drawer right under it. I also considered the Miele, which looks like a great unit.

Have you considered the AEG zoneless, which is not as zoneless as the Thermador, but I think it will work with a griddle. You can get AEG in Canada.

Here is a link that might be useful: My new Kitchenaid Induction is really noisy


 o
RE: Induction help

Have you seen these prior threads? If not, there may be some useful info in them for you.

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/appl/msg0220010115106.html

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/appl/msg1001331814460.html

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/appl/msg0111420223081.html


 o
RE: Induction help

Siemens and Bosch are one company now so it's quite possible that Siemens ranges sold elsewhere in the world are labelled Bosch here in Canada

As well Bosch recently acquired Thermador so no doubt those will soon be resembling each other.


 o
RE: Induction help

Electrolux owns AEG which has zoneless units CE certified to include US/CA electrical system values. 220-240/50-60hz. Look on UK sites or do a price search at pricerunner.uk. Vat refundable Fedex shipping about $150.
I would consider these at the top of a zoneless list because of the $20k commercial zoneless units Electrolux offers.
80cm has 4 equal power, equal size down to 5" pan size and two can be linked for grill pan use.

This post was edited by dan1888 on Sun, Mar 31, 13 at 16:44


 o
RE: Induction help

The 36" Miele has two 8" burners on the right side (front and rear). I do not have an magnetic pan big enough to try and see how the bridging works, but I suggest you take your griddle down to an appliance store with a working Miele cook top and try it out. It is a great appliance.
To answer your 3 questions: if you don't have an induction capable pot or pan on a burner, the burner doesn't work. My smallest pot (5" base) works on the 6", 8" and 9" burners but not on the 11" one.
Carol


 o
RE: Induction help

I have a 36" Thermador induction cooktop, the zoned version with 5 hobs, all with timers. See link for descriptions and specs. The two hobs on the left are the same size. I've used a cast iron griddle across these two to make pancakes, and haven't had a problem yet. We don't run the hobs for very long or at very high power, I would guess a whole batch takes 15-20 minutes to cook at power level 5 (on a scale of 1-10). During that time the cooktop doesn't shut down so the temperature maximum isn't reached. We haven't seen any bad after-effects. I don't know how long you would be using the griddle. Also, our griddle is a bit smaller than yours, ours is around 10" x 20". But you could take your griddle to a showroom to see how it fits.

Cheryl

Here is a link that might be useful: Thermador induction cooktops


 o
RE: Induction help

I talked with Wolf about bridging - the Wolf doesn't have a true bridge - the rep said it wouldn't hurt anything as long as you don't go over the controls and wires - but I have not tried it as my griddle was All Clad but was aluminum...


 o
RE: Induction help

@chac - I do want to see them but in my area its had to find induction hobs to look at...never mind working models. So far the only live demo was the Elux slide-in. Planing a trip to a larger center soon to see others (i hope)

Not 5 cooktops... 5 Elements/burners. That would be fairly excessive.

As to bridging I would like to have the option of using two gridles for Pancakes, french toast, bacon, eggs, Burgers, veggies, meat ect. In short ,cooking. I do not think i would be doing any marathon cooking but i usually do larger (15 people+) meals at least 5 or 6 times a year.

I know the Miele info is standard for most, but what it does not tell me is what happens if my cooking surface is too large. Some inductions have an issue with small...does that go both ways?

I thought the Gagg and Thermo were both Siemens induction coils.

Zoneless is nice, very nice even. Just not sure i can justify the cost, maybe i can justify the value if i try hard enough.

@Ginny - Sorry about your bad experience with whirlpool...I read that thread and am glad to know that going in. Luckily I never had my heart set on that unit, I was sort of settling.

As to the pan i think i will be using i was looking at these
http://www.gaggenau.com/ca/product/Teppan_Yaki?sourceCat=cooking#product These are designed for induction so i would hope they work on all brands/models.

I had looked at AEG but the Canadian site only had a few and the HK953400FB Zone-Free Induction Cooktop is just too small.

@JWVideo - Thanks, the more info i have the more informed my choice can be.

@pkguy - Always good to know that stuff.

@dan - I found this http://www.aeg.co.uk/Products/Cooking/Hobs/Induction_hobs/HK874400FB one on their site but not in Canada. If this is not the unit you are talking about can you give me a model number?

It was also not on the PriceRunner Site, but i can poke about some UK sites.

How can i tell if something is CE certified?

Would Units bought this way still have warranty through the Canadian AEG?

@carolml - I was thinking about the Miele. I don't have a Gridle yet, and i plan on visiting showrooms soon... just all the places i have been don't have working displays...and i have seen only a Miele vacuum so far.

Nice to know Miele does not have much of an issue with pan size.

Can I ask you what happens if you put a 11' pan on a 6' burner? This is essentially what i would be doing to run a griddle...over size pan on small burner. Don't do it if it may damage your equipment of course.

@Jadite - I have seen the Thermador unit online before, it has the same set up as many 36" units. By that i mean to equal burners on one side two lopsided ones on the other and a large one in the center. Units i have seen like this include the Miele, Bosch, Bertazzoni, GE, Fisher paykal, and of course the Thermador. Then Fagor and Windcrest who are lopside on both sides. The Whirlpool and GenAir are balanced both sides.

It great to know that someone is using a griddle on at least half their unit. Have you ever tried the griddle on the other side?

Have you ever had your unit shut down from overheating during use ever?

@a2gemini - That may be the best solution, talk to the manufacturers. Unfortunately i have already discounted the wolf because it is not balanced enough (lookswise). I have been considering their steam oven...but I will leave that for another thread.

@EVERYONE - Thank you for replying, this would be an impossible choice with out people like you to assist.


 o
RE: Induction help

Noctua- I did remember that you had ruled out the wolf but forgot to put that piece in my post. Mostly I wanted to point out that it might be ok but a good idea to talk to the company - I was surprised that wolf did not say no outright.
The other thing to think about is the conduction property of the griddle material.
Iron gets hot but is not a very good conductor of heat so the areas that are not directly over the burner may not reach and maintain the temperature needed.
I know what you mean about the price of the zone less. They came out in Europe shortly after I ordered my appliances. I looked and ogled but zowie! In time, the prices will come down so that us mere mortals can enjoy the technology - but something new will be out there again.
I will be watching to see your final decision.


 o
RE: Induction help

Noctua, I haven't tried using 2 griddles simultaneously, we would never make that many pancakes! But I see no reason you couldn't. The fit on the right side would be more awkward than on the left because of the different sizes and powers of the asymmetric hobs, but I'm sure it can be done.

Or you could use a large (14+" diameter) round griddle on the middle hob. Remember that you can use a pot which extends beyond the active area of the hob. Last summer when I was making preserves and canning big quantities, I had pots going on at least 4 hobs simultaneously. To make them fit, I arranged them any way I could as long as a major portion of the bottom was on the hob. I would think you could use a rectangular griddle over the two symmetric hobs at left, a circular griddle over the large central hob, and another 2 skillets on the right.

No, the cooktop has never shut down for any reason, even during my canning marathon.

Cheryl


 o
RE: Induction help

I just tried my 12" stock pot on the 6" Miele burner and it works. I do suspect though, that you won't get uniform heating on the griddle - over the burner will be hotter than the edges which would only be heated by radiant heat.


 o
RE: Induction help

carolml - you don't get uniform heating over the entire griddle, or any large pot, since only the hob delivers heat. But conduction diffuses heat across the entire surface, assuming your griddle or pot has decent thermal conductivity. It might take a few minutes, but eventually you have fairly even heat across the entire surface. If you don't, return the griddle!

We heat our cast iron griddle across two hobs, allowing it to heat slowly. Cast iron has large thermal mass so it always heats slowly regardless of how it is heated. I would estimate that we leave the griddle for about 5-6 minutes while mixing pancake batter. By the time the batter is ready, the griddle is hot. If I were making pancakes in a skillet over one hob, I would make the batter before turning the cooktop on.

Cheryl


 o
RE: Induction help

You can look at the different AEG model Maxisense(zoneless) hobs on their UK website to get the model number you want. These are in their fourth generation at least. The totally blacked out versions are the newest I've seen.
The CE certification info is found in the Owner's Manual download.
Some have said this is acceptable to their insurer with installation by a certified electrician.

This post was edited by dan1888 on Mon, Apr 1, 13 at 14:00


 o
RE: Induction help

@ a2gemini - After everything that has been said here I am thinking that the pans i selected, while made for induction, would not be well suited to bridging and are designed for zoneless hobs (thin metal).

@Jadite - I probably would not make that many either but the second one would be useful for bacon and eggs while the cakes cook :P . Good to hear you have no over heats.

@carolml - Thanks for testing it for me, the manuals are not clear it would work.

@Cheryl - Thinking cast is the way to go... at least with out zoneless.

@dan1888 - I found that model (http://www.aeg.co.uk/Products/Cooking/Hobs/Induction_hobs/HK874400FB) and i found it at a phenomenal price (compared to zoneless here). The manual says they will warranty in a ton of countries, none of them is my country. So if i did get one I would be riding dirty at least as far as warranty would carry me.

I need to look into import fees a little closer. Would it help if i had someone willing to pick up in that country for me? LOL, cause i might. Well not the UK but i have found it in Australia too. The site says good for all 50hz service...but the manual still says 50 and 60. It should be the same unit I would think. Only 4 pots at once and the same 7.4Kw that the Gagg and thermo use, wonder if these are Siemens coils too.

Now i need to find some operational videos for that unit and see the menus and talk to my insurance guy.

Edit: found a site that has the AEG but also has a Electrolux that looks to be the same thing, only cheaper. Not sure i can believe the prices, going to look into the site a bit more.

http://euappliances.com/webshop/product/aeg_hk874400fb/704

http://euappliances.com/webshop/product/electrolux_ehd8740fok/959

No Warranty in Canada/USA according to manuals.

Any one heard of this place?

Edit 2: also found this. http://www.dutycalculator.com/new-import-duty-and-tax-calculation/saved_calculations/view_details/184991758/

This post was edited by Noctua on Tue, Apr 2, 13 at 1:19


 o
RE: Induction help

Great find. 20% vat comes off that price or is refundable or deleted from the UK.
The much better pricing reflects the broad and extensive induction range available in the UK.

Here is a link that might be useful: Electrolux induction Maxisense hob


 o
RE: Induction help

One little question: if it breaks down, who will fix it, where will they get spare parts from, and how long will it take?


 o
RE: Induction help

@Dan - Have you imported before? It seems there is alot to find out. I have spent the better part of my day email companies and departments about this, so far no responses.

I did find some good resources to start my search though.
For one ieCanada has tons of stuff. I am more worried about the electrical certifications than anything. I could get it here and then not be able to install it.

Weird thing i noticed, the AEG models available in Canada do not have manuals available for download but the Eurozone English manuals for the same models only show CE certification, no North American certs at all.

I also found out that a CE certification is the manufacturer saying they meet all the Req while a UL certification actually involves tests by third party.

I will talk to my inspector about it before i order. I did find in the Electrical code that Provincial Governments can do one time certifications for specialty items...no idea who would do that yet. Calling the power company tomorrow for leads.

Incidentally i am off Zoneless now, moved on to bigger and better things, LOL.

I also found out that because of NAFTA i should be able to Order SubZero/Wolf products Duty free because they are made in the US. So maybe that fridge is not out of reach ;D
(I don't know what it cost there but i was quoted 23700 on the SZ PRO48 and Wolf steam this monday)

@Caliente63 - I have little trust in most warranties in the first place. The worse that could happen is it arrives dead or dies in 2-3 months, that can happen with any electronics. I will have to look into what could happen in that case...the company i posted about talks about damaged in transit but that is a different issue. All they say about warranty is it has a standard Euro one, ie no warranty in Canada.

The way I justify it is that for the price i am looking at i could almost buy 3 units in Canada (2 in the US). So if push comes to shove i could order a second one. Hopefully, before that I could repair it, ordering the parts direct if i need to. So just as long as i don't get a dud i think i will be fine.


 o
RE: Induction help

Almost. I have a friend who can bring one back the next time he goes to the UK(not when with his wife) as the extra piece of free return luggage. Last time they sold out at Christmas when he went because of impending vat change
I would check into Liebherr as a frig choice..


 o
RE: Induction help

@Noctua replied to my questions: " I have little trust in most warranties in the first place"

I said nothing about the warranty.

I was pointing out that you will have trouble finding a technician in NA that has the documentation or training to diagnose and repair an imported cooktop. I doubt that you would be able to do that yourself either with no documentation to work from. I don't think the manufacturer in Europe will be especially interested in talking you through diagnosis and repair over the phone, or supplying you with technical manuals.

Bottom line: if your cooktop quits working after a few weeks, you will be all out of luck.


 o
RE: Induction help

It is nice to know a qualified technician. And there are such people. Electrolux supplies induction products to NA in both their residential and commercial product lines. People qualified to work on those existing lines would be the first I would contact if some help was needed. It is also useful to learn as much as possible about the product and make any contact smoother.


 o
RE: Induction help

@Caliente - Sorry, i misinterpreted your question. I may attempt a Electrolux repair person if i needed to, more than likely i would not call them though. I have repaired appliances and electrical equipment in the past. I own a decent volt meter and am not afraid to get my hands dirty. Most of the parts are available online for purchases i believe

@Dan - Probably would be nice to know someone like that, would be nicer to have my stuff not break down though...unless that person was very pleasant, then it may be a toss up.

As to my Importing, I was quite busy today working on it while neglecting my day job.
Turns out Canadian electrical code allows for importer certifications on a one time basis. The person i talked to gave me a list of Companies that perform the service in North America and a good lead for a semi-local company.

I hope to talk to some one there about cost and time frames tomorrow. The ordeal is not with out its own risk, if i import it and the certification company says no I could be left with a $2000 paper weight. I am not sure if I could just keep trying new companies till i find one that says yes.

I asked about if i could possible inquire with those companies about items that had passed before, I was told I could ask but that even if the same brand model had passed before every unit certified this way undergoes the tests.

As far a i know AEG units brought in to Canada receive their certification from CSA, but I was told so long as it is a Canadian approved electrical testing certification that label would be fine and it could not be denied hook up or insurance.

What piece were you thinking about getting brought back to you?


 o
RE: Induction help

Noctua, I was in EXACTLY your same situation a year ago. I was leaning toward the Kitchenaid because of the bridge, for exactly the same reason - pancakes, french toast, etc. Then I read about the noise issue, and went with the Wolf. I've never looked back. My advice: don't worry so much. You'll love the induction so much you'll be happy with any of them. Personally, I would reconsider the decision to rule out the 36" Wolf (attractive, low noise, two 8.5" burners AND an 11" burner, the framed version sits ON TOP of the stainless trim for super easy cleanup, integrated touch controls) and I bet the Chef King steel griddle would work fine over the middle two burners since there's only about 2" separating them.
(I just make one 11" pancake in a skillet and cut it in half then stack the halves. Kids are perfectly happy.)
But as you decide... it's true that heat drops off drastically at the edge of the burner, so a pancake hanging off the heat won't cook evenly. But I think you'll find ways to make it work. :-) Good Luck, and relax. I think you're asking for trouble with the importing issues, when the models here will make you really happy. Now go worry about picking the right frig. UGH. :-)


 o
RE: Induction help

Also, I've never found a cast iron double griddle that isn't raised on the bottom. Most of them have a lip around the bottom that keeps it from making contact with enough of the burner. If you've located one, please post the link!
Chef King makes a steel griddle, but I haven't tried it. Anyone know how it works?


 o
RE: Induction help

Noctua - all of my vessels are heavy duty and work well -
I have the most eclectic collection out there. I think I have at least one-2 of each brand but not a whole set of anything - mostly I bought samples
All Clad
DeMeyere
Calphalon - yes they have some that work
Staub
Scan pan IQ
CIA - my DH loves the name - Culinary Institute of America
LeCreuset (My most recent purchase at the outlet and haven't even tried them)
but have not tried thinner pans to verify -
Induction pans don't have to touch the surface but it helps.


 o
RE: Induction help

@ jchcwh2624 - Thank you for your concern. I am really not that strung out about this...just following a thought through to completion. Even if i end up not Importing maybe someone else will find this info useful.

I saw the wolf in person and it is beautiful, the patterning is very nice. I was not live so i could not play with the controls but they look easy enough.

Its just, i am seeing this other cooktop right now, and well, she's really cute and we could be getting serious, i don't know, but i want to see where this takes us.

As to the actual cookware, if i get true bridging or zoneless i am looking at the Gaggeneau 13" x 21" Teppan Yaki pans. If i don't go that way i guess i am searching for cast.

@ a2gemini - i would take a collection of hand selected pans vs complete set of and brand any day. I have a few favorite pans that i will lose to my induction (no matter what model i get). You probably have a few favorites depending on the job, i am envious but also excited to take the same journey.

@Anyone importing or thinking about it.

So to get the info i needed i talked to the same place that issues permits for electrical work... the person i talked to first did not know and sent my up the line. I was given a list of North American companies that do certifications. I was also given a phone number for one the inspector know was local to my area and had done this sort of thing in the past.

I was not able to talk to anyone at Inertek, sort of. Inertek is a multinational and contracts out to many different companies in many countries for testing. I did talk to 3 companies that do certifications on inerteks behalf.

Basically certification is $175/hour with a 2 hour minimum... they charge for driving time so you may be better off to bring the items to them, i am. You also pay a $10 fee for each sticker (one per device certified) . You also pay federal tax. I was told they take credit card only (MC or Visa). This is for Canada, but i was told the prices are set by a regulatory board or something, so he price should not very from one company to the next, at least on a per country basis.

The test is standardized and it is a pass every part or fail.
The bad news is that as part of the testing they upload you serial number in to their system so there are no retakes. Your cooktop either can or can not...there is no try.

The good news for me is AEG has products in Canada, and most of the products i looked at are built to use both electrical circuits.

This post was edited by Noctua on Thu, Apr 4, 13 at 23:09


 o
RE: Induction help

Yes - I miss my all clad grill - I gave it to my DSIL and she hasn't tried it yet...
I live close to the border but didn't think about importing from Canada - but i think it is advantageous the other way at this time.


 o
RE: Induction help

Now I would choose an Electrolux model. My location in a mini peninsula with two triangular wings(wood counter) bringing the now installed slide-in forward from the straight counter run. This creates three side access and two "edy" spaces for chefs out of the traffic flow across the kitchen space. The cooktop is always used from each side so the unit I was choosing and will choose includes control placement based on side usage.


 o Post a Follow-Up

Please Note: Only registered members are able to post messages to this forum.

    If you are a member, please log in.

    If you aren't yet a member, join now!


Return to the Appliances Forum

Information about Posting

  • You must be logged in to post a message. Once you are logged in, a posting window will appear at the bottom of the messages. If you are not a member, please register for an account.
  • Posting is a two-step process. Once you have composed your message, you will be taken to the preview page. You will then have a chance to review your post, make changes and upload photos.
  • After posting your message, you may need to refresh the forum page in order to see it.
  • Before posting copyrighted material, please read about Copyright and Fair Use.
  • We have a strict no-advertising policy!
  • If you would like to practice posting or uploading photos, please visit our Test forum.
  • If you need assistance, please Contact Us and we will be happy to help.


Learn more about in-text links on this page here