I have the Wolf rangetop and the black enamel pretty much wipes out. I don't have the stainless surface, obviously, available on others, but am not convinced it wouldn't get things baked onto it that would be hard to clean off. Are you considering the open (what we have) or their sealed burners if you get Wolf? The open burner Wolf has a dbl ring of flames, so there is absolutely no problem for smaller pans and lower heat. I went for Wolf because of its reputation for quality (couldn't find one complaint in searches here) and for the company's quick and thorough support of their products.

After using the Wolf, I can see why people might prefer the BlueStar for cleaning, since the more open burners allow crumbs and dropped pieces of food to fall through to the tray underneath, and the cast iron pieces on top will eventually show less from spatters, etc....My cast iron grates are more forgiving that way than the shiny black. They look fine without the wiping down the black enamel needs.

I wish I could remember all the reasons we decided against Thermador. I just wasn't all that impressed, and the service situation was concerning. Its star burners are not BlueStar's star burners. Our appliance salesman (whom we've been able to trust for years and who is very knowledgeable) felt the only reason to go for Thermador was if we liked their stainless electric griddle.

I haven't heard anything bad about DCS, but we have propane and it has enough lower BTU ratings with propane that it fell out of the running. I wanted to stick with a manufacturer that made appliances specific to the fuel we have.

We have the F&P dbl ovens. I never felt any need to match, but felt I wanted the best value (performance, cooking options, and customer service) for my money.

With both I wanted to make sure I wasn't in my kitchen, after spending thousands on the 2 appliances, wishing I would have gone with my gut and gotten something else. After all my research, these were the ones I kept coming back to and wishing I could afford. A great buy on the ovens from an Ebay seller allowed me to afford both.

We're unique in that we have the Thermador 36" star-burner cooktop and a Wolf double-oven. I can't speak for the comparable Wolf cooktop as I never priced it, but when we bought the Wolf double-oven, its price was $5600 while the comparable Thermador double-oven was $3900. They are not comparable items at the same price point. We made an excellent buy on the Wolf for $3,200 on ebay.

The oven does not clean up so well on the inside, but the star burners are not easy to clean around, either. After using the cooktop 5 years and the oven 2 years, I'd say these 2 companies have equal quality. IMO, Wolf is positioned as a premium product above Thermador in cooking. Our oven certainly looks good from the outside.

Thanks for your comments and advice! Glad to hear the F&P ovens are working well for you, rhome410.

We are looking primarily and sealed-burner rangetops or cooktops, as we rarely cook for 30+ guests and don't want to have to remove and clean a drip pan every time something spills. It makes sense for restaurant kitchens, since they have to cook for hours and then clean at the end of the day, with a ton of grease and spills down on the drip pan. For us, it seems like a simple wipe-up of the rangetop surface and burners is more practical.

We are now also considering either of the 5-burner Gaggenau cooktops (model KG491 or KG291). They have two and three-ring burners, with a power burner of 18,000 BTUs. It seems that these might work well for a wide range of pot and pan sizes. Does anyone have experience with these units? How is the quality control? Cooking power? Ease of use? Quality and reliability of service?

Actually, I've been told that Wolf makes the Gaggenau burners. If you look real close at the 2, you'll see the similarity.

OK,but the mutil-ring burners are not available on the Wolf sealed burner models (only the open burner models), and we want to have the easiest and quickest possible clean-up without a messy drip tray. The Gaggenau offers 2 and 3 ring burners with a sealed cooktop, but only 5 burners instead of 6.

We are finding that despite all the brands and models, and even if we're willing to pay $2k - $3k for a range top or cooktop, one still must make many compromises in either quality, convenience, cooking power, or serviceability.

We have had a Wolf open burner Rangetop for over a year and I think I have cleaned the drip pan twice-mostly crumbs. Next to nothing ever gets down there the way the burner trays are designed. Boilovers stay in the burner tray-I have never had one leak down to the drip pan. I don't know if this is true with other open burner ranges like Viking, but boilovers are as easy to clean up as on the old sealed burner range we had before-easier because they are confined to one burner pan and the pan itself is much cooler since the burner doesn't mount right on top of it. So nothing burns onto the pan like it did on our sealed burner stove top. As rhome said, cleanup is usually a spritz of windex and a quick wipe with a paper towel. On the whole this rangetop cleans up much better and far faster than the gas-on-glass sealed burner range it replaced.

We also have the FP ovens and just love them.

Our rangetop is the Bluestar, and this may surprize you, but we chose it because it was the easiest for us to keep clean! We line the the drip tray with foil and have only had to swap it out twice since we got it installed last May. Once for a boil over, and once to rid it of accumulated crumbs. The best was the boilover...just swap out the aluminum and clean one burner bowl in the DW. If it had sealed burners, we'd have had to clean a lot of the surface.

Open and closed burners aside, the matte black grates hide a multitude of sins and don't show any fingerprints and hides smudges. This means it always looks nice, even if I haven't wiped it down for a week or more. Yes, I can admit it, I am a slob.

The Bluestar cooks like a dream, but to be honest, you're looking at all good options (except maybe the thermodore) and I'd bet you'd be happy with whichever you end up choosing. Especially if you choose the one that fits your cooking style and your family's needs the best.

I'll be kind of repeating what capecodcook has said, but I'm a little confused. To clean up a spill or grab something dropped on a sealed burner rangetop, don't you have to pull up the grate and wipe it out? (And I've found that with sealed burners, the grates are often hooked 2 together...HEAVY) Anyway, to clean up a spill or dropped item on my open burner Wolf, I pick up the grate (1), and wipe out underneath. I don't know why the open burner approach would be any more difficult, but you have the option of taking the piece to the sink or over the waste basket if the spill is bad enough. Like Alku, I can't imagine that the drip tray, which slides out so easily and is like cleaning off a cookie sheet, will get cleaned/need cleaning very often. But, also like Alku, I believe you have to get what works best for you.

While I'm here, have you looked at Capital's new Precision series ranges? That was one of my top contenders when I was still considering the sealed burners.

Just about the sealed burner cleaning question - I have sealed gas burners. I regret not getting the unsealed open burners. I have a permanent ring around each burner of stains that I can't get out. It's probably 1/16-1/8 of an inch, but it's unsightly, and evidently permanent. If I had an open burner, nothing would have gotten caught there and become permanent. I also understand that the open burners are better for cooking, cause the oxygen flow under the burners from the open design enhances the flame and the flame pattern. I don't have personal experience with that, but I KNOW that I don't like my sealed burners, and for my next kitchen (likely years from now) I will get open burners.

I have the Wolf cooktop - not the rangetop. This is a sealed burner model and i don't understand how or where the "permanent ring of stains around each burner" could possibly come from? What is causing the stains in the first place, let alone keeping you from wiping them up? I don't have any sort of ring whatsoever. Cleaning up involves removing the grates and wiping down the surface. Much of the time, I don't even use any sort of soap at all - just a damp sponge. Once a month or more likely every two months, I give it a more thorough cleaning with the paste that Wolf gives with the cooktop (meant for stainless steel).

Also, I really really like my Wolf cooktop, but seriously, Wolf is not making Gagg's burners for them! The entire unit is built in France (if I recall right) at a Gagg factory. It is not a Wolf contract. Quadman, if you're interested in the Gaggenau 36", Jamesk has one and has written here on it. Perhaps you could do a search for some of his posts on it.

Mindstorm, AK described the problem I had exactly. I didn't want to get into lengthy descriptions above, but here goes:
This is what happened with my GE gas on glass: you are busily sauteing on one burner, spattering grease everywhere; then it it is time to heat the veggies or something on a second burner. Now you can stop cooking and wipe everything down or keep on cooking. So now the second burner has grease spattered all around it and you turn it on to heat a second pot. The burner gets hot, it heats the surrounding surface into which it is embedded and to which it is very close, and the bottom of the pot reflects heat back onto the surface. The result is the grease around this burner now gets burned onto the stove top. This can be exacerbated if you have two pans going, one on each side and have the double burner grates rhome mentioned like the GE range we had, and you need to use a third burner. Now you if you want to tidy up you have to take one pot off the burner to clean up after spattering. Anyway after a while, you end up with the ring of burned-on grease around each burner that only scraping with a razor blade will remove-big fun; glad we were not neatnicks. (You can't wipe it all up mindstorm because the range is hot, you have pans in the way, there are open flames around and you are busy cooking dinner! Wrestling with the grates on one side of a 30" stove while someone else is cooking on the other side is no fun, but I occasionally tried to mop the grease up if it was getting really bad. Now if you don't saute, this is probably not a problem; certainly what and how you cook make a difference. And we always used spatter screens on the pans-still messy. Maybe we are just messy cooks.)

I have had this experience twice-once with the range above and with its predecessor a electric stainless steel sealed top with the cast iron disc that gets hot. Even uglier because the burned on ring really stands out on a stainless steel top and razors don't work well there.

Now, both of these ranges were low end products. In both cases the burner was mounted very close to the range surface so perhaps it heated the surface better than some of the higher end ranges that seem to have the burner mounted a little higher. E.G. the dual stacked burner arrangement might put the high flame far enough away from the range surface to mitigate this problem somewhat. All I know is those ranges were never clean because it was just too much work and my Wolf rangetop is always clean (at least to my standards) with no sign of anything burning on anywhere.

And in closing I will add we never bothered with aluminum foil on the drip tray because it never gets dirty.

CCC, Ok, but this I do know - my wolf cooktop - sealed burner model - doesn't have such a problem and I operate it just as you describe: Cook on one burner and sure it creates a mess. Then start up or already have going, a second, a third and sometimes a fourth. I certainly don't stop and clean anything until all cooking is done and the unit is COLD! I don't have a ring on the unit. I used to have a Bosch cooktop also with the sealed burners. Didn't have any dirty rings around the burners there either and I didn't stop-cool-clean before turning on new burners, either. All messes (on the cool cooktop) clean right up.

The flange on the wolf burners are of a different material and perhaps even reasonably well thermally isolated, than the top of t he cooktop (for lack of a better word). Perhaps this keeps the cooktop from getting so hot that it thermally bonds any grease or food droppings to the cooktop? I don't know. I just know that neither of the two cooktops I've had in the past 3 years have had this burner ring.

That said, my old stove - a Kenmore or a GE or something with a porcelain top DID used to get dirty and to have gunk and spatters thermally bond to the porcelain around the burner from the heat of the flame. Perhaps that is what you and AKchicago are referring to? If so, sure and I can affirm that the sealed Wolf burner depicts no such behaviour while my old stove (which was certainly *not* capable of the higher 15K BTU output of the current stove) did give me that dreaded burnt on ring.

Thanks to all of you for enlightening us about open burners from Wolf and Blue Star. The Nova and multi-ring burners would appear to work better than a large diameter sealed burner when cooking with small diameter pots or pans.

We are also looking at Dacor,which offers only sealed burner range tops but produces one of the most aesthetically pleasing lines of range tops and ovens. They are popular here in Southern California, but they are pretty expensive. I've searched this forum and found various opinions, but has anyone bought a Dacor range top since they added the blue "on" indicator light rings? They are beautiful and practical, but our main need is for a bullet proof range top that won't require lots of service. Any thoughts?

They are gorgeous, but I have to say I never see people write about Dacor rangetops here. Looking at the website, it might have to do with the range of power on the burners. Wolf fans prefer the same power capability on all burners, choosing location by what works best for the situation (how many pots, pot sizes, and the amount of attention a dish needs while cooking, etc.), rather than having to choose the burner by the amount of power it offers. I think Capital offers the same power on all burners, too. The BlueStar people would like the higher overall power, and, especially the availablity of 22K BTUs. I'm assuming it's about the same price as the others?

There was quite a bit of discussion about problems with the lower end Dacor ovens awhile back. The high end ones get positive comments, but a lot of people seem to think they're a new try at a that kind of technology for Dacor, and are a copy of the highly successful Miele ovens. This makes the Mieles a less risky investment with their long-standing, very positive history with the similar technology, and their usually smaller price tag.

So not necessarily bad choices, but might cost you more for the same or less you might find in the other brands. When you're considering appliances that give such similar options, maybe if you like the look that much better, it's enough to help you decide.

OK. After much research, we've narrowed down the range top choices to (1) Blue Star 36" 6-burner or (2) Wolf 36" 6-burner, both with an open-burner design. I like the idea of flame on pan bottom, good build quality, and long-term durability.

What is the best oven I can buy with knobs intead of buttons? Setting aside Thermador because of their terrible customer service reputation, we are looking at the 30" Fisher & Paykel, Viking Professional Ultra-Premium Select, and GE Monogram ZET2PLSS Professional. Are there any other great quality knob-controlled double ovens out there?

Read the thread on Viking before you consider that one. Not a lot of Viking oven fans here. Also go to the bottom of the forum page and do a search for the Monogram. Lots of user raves, but a couple of recent problems now that the model is about a year and a half old. They may not be a big deal, but you might as well read and see what you think. The only problem I've read with F&P was some bad fuses that needed replacing after self-clean, but were fixed by F&P promptly. You can do a search for those, too.

I prefer knobs myself, so had a time deciding between F&P and the Monogram. Those ball-bearing full-extension glide racks that stay in while you self-clean were hard to pass up, but I preferred the cooking mode options on the F&P, the ability to set the temp by 5 degree increments instead of 25, and I found a great deal on Ebay that sealed the decision.

I bet you'll love your rangetop, whichever of those you choose.

quadman -- are you considering GE Mono. trivection at all (or just convection)?

Good question re trivection or convection. I am getting the advantium and was going to put a trivection under it, but then decided it was just to unconventional and that I would want an oven that just used basic convection. So I am saving some money and going with a GE mono convection 30 inch. instead. My concern was that I might notice a difference in taste and texture since the trivection used microwave technology. The advantium will be giving be the speed cooking ability. I also need to decide on a 2nd oven. Any Thermador or Viking convection oven owners that would like to comment on either?

avignon -- we are having a similar debate and are also concerned about trivection technology (though we love gadgets). i wish there was a way to just run it as a regular ocnvection oven when you wanted to. where are you putting your other oven, and what rangetop do you have?

starfish--I am doing a new kitchen and the rangetop is another area where I am having problems. I know what I want..the 6 burner open burner Viking rangetop. I love the way it looks and I think it is right for me. I have a family of 5 and need the 6 burner. I don't think I need to go crazy and get something with 22 BTU's. It kind of scares me actually. I really am concerned with all the Viking bashing that I read about. So I also am considering the 6 burner GE monogram professional (only sealed burners). Prices are similar especially since GEMONO just had a price increase. The oven is going under a counter to the right of the cooktop and left of my sink. I like having drawers under the rangetop and a counter over the oven. For the second oven I am considering a Thermador and/or a Viking. Again price and size. Both ( at least here are less expensive than the Dacors Miele's and Wolfs.

After a few crazy work weeks, I went out appliance shopping again today to show my brother (an extremely detail-oriented engineer type) a Blue Star range. We looked at a 30" 4-burner with single oven (the only Blue Star item on display). We both like the overall heft and simplicity of this machine. I think the rough cast iron grates and drip pans will actually be easier to keep clean than the shiny black porcelainized enamel of the Viking/Wolf/Monogram alternatives. My wife saw the Blue Star last week and really liked it as well (we are leaning toward a 6-burner 36" range top unit). My number 2 choice is the Wolf open-burner range. Question: Is there any reason to go for the 48" version with 6 burners plus a griddle? We think we need another 12" of counter and cabinet space more than a griddle. In addition, we are looking at a 42" Vent-A-Hood with 900 CFM dual magic lungs.

For ovens, it is down to the Fisher & Paykel (the best features and the best knob-type non-touchpad unit available at the best price) or the GE Professional (with knobs), with the Wolf coming in just behind (because it has buttons, but is otherwise a beautiful unit). My only disappointment is that the F&P timer is ridiculously quiet (hard to hear across the kitchen, let alone in the room next door).

I still think the best looking range top and oven are the Thermador (oven with knobs), but I would kick myself if we got a lemon and were stuck with the horrible Thermador/Bosch/Siemens customer service we've read about on this forum. We both work, so the last thing we need is to take time off work to meet a repairman who either doesn't show up or takes 4-5 visits to correct a problem. No matter how gorgeous or functional an appliance is, if it breaks and the manufacturer doesn't have its servicing act together, we don't want it in our house.

We are leaning toward the GE Monogram Professional 48" side-by-side refrigerator/freezer with dispenser (ZISP480DTSS) based on value for price. We love the Sub-Zero 648PRO but it really is too much for our house.

Does anyone have comparitive repair/service comments for Blue Star vs. Wolf? If Wolf service and reliability are truly superior, we might have to go with them. Thanks!

I have the 36" 6-burner Bluestar rangetop and it has been perfect for almost a year now. We passed up a built in griddle or grill, but have a cast-iron griddle pan from Lodge that fits very nicely over 2 burners. To us, this gives us the most flexibility.

We never have trouble hearing the FP oven timer, even across the house with the TV on. Things always sound quieter in the showroom than in your house... Perhaps you should record the timer and play it in your house to see if it is loud enough for you.

We do have trouble hearing our FP oven timer and wish we could turn it up, or, better yet, trade it with the LOUD timer on our Krups toaster oven! :-) But I like the ovens enough so I'm not disappointed in my choice over that issue.

are the Fisher paykel ovens quiet? do you reccommend double or 2 singles

Thanks

I think the F&P ovens are very quiet. I haven't had a lot of convection ovens to compare to, but the fan noise sure doesn't bother me. I don't notice it when it's on (it doesn't bother conversation, drown out music playing, or anything like that), although it is audible if I pay attention, and everything else is quiet.

I don't know how to answer the 2 singles vs a double question. Why would you want 2 singles instead of a double? Do you have space issues, or want to separate them for some reason? They would be quite a bit more expensive. You can mount them undercounter, but one reason I wanted wall ovens was to have them higher.

After reading about the various poor experiences with Blue Star initial quality (perhaps due to poor packing and untrained installers) and somewhat slow response time for service, would we be buying trouble if going with a 36" 6-burner Blue Star range top? Would an open-burner Wolf offer better product backing by the factory/dealer/servicing firm? There are only two Blue Star dealers in the L.A. area, and each one only has a one unit on display. The one closest to us really pushes Viking and Wolf and really downplayed Blue Star (my guess is that Viking offers incentives to salespersons). It just seems to me that nothing else cooks like a Blue Star, so we'd like to go with them, as long as the company offers strong quality control and product backing. What would you do?

Quadman, our rangetop was shipped cross country from Eurostoves, and it's been perfect. I'm on CA's central coast a couple hours north of you (if you're in the LA area). When we were looking at Bluestar, there weren't any dealers in LA yet, so we stopped in King City to look at a few.

The biggest thing that Bluestar's got going for it is that it is very simple engineering, especially for the rangetops. Any experienced range service person should be able to work with it.

Feel free to email me through my page if you'd like to road trip up to see and cook on my rangetop in person.

Thanks for the offer, alku05.

We now are questioning the choice of the 30" F&P double wall ovens as my brother's 4 year old unit just had the top oven die this week. We really love the features and cooking ability of the F&P (two temparature probes, fantastic ergonomic touch and feel of the controls, 5 degree increment temperature setting, gorgeous blue interior, powerful broiler), but we want a bullet-proof unit that will last 40 years, not just 4 years. We like knob controls the best, instead of fingerprint-laden shiny black pushbutton controls. However, we are willing to trade knobs for buttons if it means getting a great, long-lasting, trouble free oven.

Miele seems so popular on this forum. What about the GE Monogram Professional ovens with knobs? I'm searching the forums for reports on these ovens, but if anyone can post their experiences here, that would be great. I still love the look and feel of the Thermador Professional Deluxe double oven but am concerned about quality control, service hassles, and occasional slow heat-up problems, etc. that seem to plague Thermador. We would consider Wolf but have read about slow heating with those also. Too bad there is no Miele oven with knobs! We would appreciate any guidance here. Thanks!

yeah...a miele with knobs and racks (the telescopic ones) would be really nice....

I would also like everything to last 40 years, but is there a way to know? Seems like everyone comes out with new models every once in awhile, with enough changes so that the clock starts over on figuring out how long they may last. The Monograms are pretty new to guess anything like that...only out since 2006, and an entirely new model from what they offered before. Lots of good reports from people with their initial experiences, and a couple bad ones about the time the model hit its 1st anniversary. I suppose Miele would be a good bet for longevity, with the care Miele seems to put into their quality control, and I think they've been making the MasterChef model for quite awhile now? Since they do all of their own manufacturing (I was told, anyway), at least you don't have to worry that they'll start getting a part from a different supplier that will affect the oven's quality and reliability. I think I could've talked myself into spending for one of theirs if it had knobs and full-extension racks, too, Starfish! :-)

Thanks for all the great advice from this board! We have finally selected our appliances:

Kitchenaid 48" Panel Ready Refrigerator w/ dispenser
Kitchenaid 30" Warming Drawer
Fisher & Paykel 30" Double Oven
Blue Star 36" Range Top (6 burners) w/ 8" backguard
Vent-A-Hood NPH18-342 Range Hood (w/ 900 CFM Blower)
Fisher & Paykel 24" Double Drawer Dishwasher
GE Monogram 24" Winge Refrigerator w/ modesty panel

We are keeping our existing Kenmore Elite microwave oven (works great) and placing it in a shelf (similar to built-on but with greater flexibility).

The posters here have a been a great help. Thanks again!

You'll be pleased! We have 4/7 of the same choices, so I'm speaking from experience.

Isn't it wonderful to have the decisions made? Best wishes Quadman. Enjoy that new kitchen, your choices sound great.

Congratulations, quadman! Best of luck to you. I have 12 hours left to decide on appliances . . . am mad about this GE sell-off thing (has messed up my Advantium decision, which impacts whether to get double oven, warming drawer, and placement). Can't wait to have it all decided and installed. Will we get to have Thanksgiving at home??!

How is the FP double oven working out? Any observations about its pros/cons after living with it?

avignon & starfish24...Trivection ovens can be run in any one of the following different modes:

1. Speed Cook (Trivection...Convection + MW)

• Speed Bake
• Speed Broil

2. Convection

• 1-rack
• Multi-rack
• Convection Roast

3. Bake (a.k.a., thermal or traditional)

4. Broil

• Lo
• Hi
• Speed Broil

5. Warm

6. Proof

7. Defrost

8. Selfclean

I don't know where you got the idea that you can only use the Trivection mode....