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Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on dialu

Posted by aliris19 (My Page) on
Wed, Feb 29, 12 at 23:41

OK, you asked for it amcook: how's *this* for TKO?!

Here are pictures of all six of my burners on simmer with the lights out, plus one of the homemade "comal" dh fashioned of scrap copper wire.

Clockwise, from upper left:
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Middle rear:
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Right rear, with comal:
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Right front:
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Middle front:
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Left front:
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And here's the cute homemade disperser, a thing of beauty, no?
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Because the disperser was on the right rear I think it couldn't be well seen so I snagged it again, this time with some light on it:
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So here's the thing - when my machine arrived its burners were all clicking with, as Trevor so aptly puts it, the most annoying sound known to man. For this and two other problems the factory folk visited me in my home for several hours; I live near-ish to the factory. They definitely fixed the clicking - there is still some residual but it's sporadic, usually when a breeze gets set up near the stove.

I know I could probably make these sporadic clicks go away, but only by cranking *up* the flame, and the problem is, the flame's too high already. I can't simmer anything. Soups, sauces - both delicate and not, rice - they all stick and burn and/or boil roilingly even at the lowest setting.

To compensate, I stack grates one on top of another, move the pot to the side, use the disperser or some combination of all of the above. And I have ruined one le creuset pan (my fault - I did as amcook cautions against, I turned my back on cranberries (actually, I let a kid be in charge and didn't supervise) and they just boiled dry and scorched big-time. My fault, but just for the record, the stove *was* on "simmer").

I hadn't quite appreciated earlier what a large portion of my stove usage is devoted to simmering. Consequently I am really more than a little disappointed in this stove, to tell the truth. That said, I have not pursued the problem to date. Therefore, my current unhappiness is my responsibility and my fault and should not be understood as a condemnation of the machine. The people from the factory who came out were very nice and tried to convey that they would be happy to return if I needed them. I have been reluctant to bother them to return, but for this they cannot be faulted. I have figured some large part of the problem was due to "operator-error" inasmuch as I had not been cooking for well nigh something like 1.5 years when my kitchen got back into swing (long story why).

And now, I think I'm back up to speed in the cooking department, so it's time to address this simmering issue. I was bemused to note the problem still being kicked about here on the appliance forum; I haven't visited here for a long while. But clearly operator-error or no, this continues to be an issue for some. Don't know the denominator -- maybe thousands out there have no problems at all. But when dh presented me, proudly, with his homemade copper-wire disperser I was just so *embarrassed* that the machine I'd garnered so many thousands of his hard-earned income for, needed that sort of fix. I hadn't even mentioned any problem to him whatsoever, but I guess it was sort of obvious.

So. Do these burners look too high? How can I turn them down without sparking the death-clicks? And why are some not having this problem and others are? This can't be a terribly complicated problem, and the metrics are pretty straight-forward: either the burner is clicking or it isn't. Either the soup is burning or it isn't.

Thanks for any help from you knowledgeable cooks and engineers. I'm happy to foist a thin screwdriver if needed, though I have not to date. Seemed to me the factory guys were going to have done all that could or needed to be done. But it's been long enough now that I'm up for fiddling if the doctor so-advises.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Aliris: I have been reading about the "Simmer" problem with the CC since it was first introduced and have not said anything until now. I have been using my 36" NG CC Range for 4 months. One of the first things I did was to adjust all six of the burners � an extremely easy thing to do.

Here is a picture of the burner I normally use for simmering. No fire in the outer ring, a few holes not lit in the middle ring and no clicking. I can get it a little lower but will have intermittent clicking. AT THIS SETTING IT IS STILL TOO HOT FOR A GOOD SIMMER! The burner has not been modified in any way.

With all due respect to Trevor and Mr. Kalsi, the CC, even when adjusted as low as possible, is still too hot for a true simmer. I have not purchased and used a simmer plate � my question is why should I have to? I should be able to turn at least one of the burners down to BELOW a good simmer.

I have personally spoken to Mr. Kalsi on several occasions and have specifically asked him about not putting a simmer burner on the CC, even as an option, and he refuses to acknowledge that low is not a true simmer.

I would propose that Trevor have a "serious, heart to heart talk" with Mr. Kalsi and between the two of them develop a "Simmer Kit" consisting of a top burner plate with most or all of the holes in the two outer rings blocked and an office sized for this reduction in the number of holes like tyguy has suggested. Capital or Eurostoves could market it as an aftermarket "Simmer Kit".

Please don�t get me wrong - I really love my CC and don�t not have a need for a low simmer capability very often but when I need it I want it. I think Mr. Kalsi and Capital is doing its customers a dis-service by not offering this capability. If this is not in the future when I get the time I may modify one of my burners and experiment with orifice sizes until I get a true simmer capability.

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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Thank you, IceMan - very informative post even if it concerns your nemesis! ;) (fire)

I'm actually completely unclear as to whether: (i) there are a few of us only who have simmer problems, or (ii) whether those who "don't" have just figured out a creative way to avoid or ignore or overcome the problem, or (iii) whether the rest who have no problems in fact have no data one way or another because they simply don't simmer. As it were....

i.e. -- am I wrong, is it me or am I unique? (...or is it just a banana?).

I'm willing to do more fiddling and adjusting, but the issue has been so long-remarked on that I do wonder whether it is inherent; attempting further adjustment might just be throwing good time after bad. When in fact it's possible that your suggesting of developing a "simmer kit" is what is going to be necessary to live up to the "true simmer" moniker?


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Aliris: I think you are spot on. I don't think that its a huge discrepancy between simmer performance on peoples individual ranges but more peoples cooking habits and expectations etc.

Now as for having a TRUE simmer, god himself could not convince me that a high output burner like that will be able to give a true simmer without somehow shutting down some of the ports (I think it was dodge59 that had the kinda cool idea of somehow rotating the burner and using less ports, but apparently there would be other issues with orifice size etc)

Those who have bought cc's have to understand and accept that you bought a new product based on marketing hype and no history to expose the products shortfalls, and ALL products have them. I love my bs, and it has issues but I knew them well in advance of buying the product cause the have been aroud a very long time. I'm not trying to say anything negative about peoples decision to buy a cc, I'm only trying to emphasize that without history, you are buying an unproven product. I say buy a simmer plate and you will be fine. I don't really think its a big deal.

Oh, and I was able to see a live cc today. The sales lady said that it was just hooked up last weekend as the interest in cc's seem to be increasing (she mentioned that historically people walked in looking for wolf, or viking). Anyway the simmer was pretty darn hot(using the ultra reliable hovering your hand over the brner test), but I don't think the flame was adjusted(not confirmed). I did however see some pretty large build quality/design faults that I even took pics of. I found the wolf's on the floor to be near perfect. They appeared to be made mostly by precision machines and robots. As well as the thermadore on the floor and even the vikings they had were a big improvement over the older one that I had. The build quality on a cc or bs looks more like a lot of it was done by hand. This is not a bad thing tho. I would take a hand made persian rug over a perfectly manufacturered machine rug.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Instead of speaking in generalities why don't we speak specifics.

What size and brand of pots are you using to simmer what amount of gravy or tomato sauce? And what specific temperatures are you getting that are not satisfactory?

Some generic definitions all may not agree to but

Simmering is just below boiling temperature 185-200 degrees

Poaching is cooking something in a low simmer of about 160-180 degrees.

I was tought to serve Beurre Blanc sauce at 150 degrees.

My ex GF said it should be never go past 135 degrees.

Raw foodist want to "cook" food at temps no higher than 110 degrees.

So what temperatures are we getting preparing what foods that are not satisfactory?


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Good morning Deeageaux

I have always enjoyed your input but I feel like your post is not understanding that our concern is not that technical.

I am not a professional chef, have however studied the sciences, done some lab work, and prefer to regard my cooking as a passion and not an exact science. If I need to adjust based on whatever is happening in the pot or oven I do so.

Aliris, thank you for your post. If you are a banana, then count me as part of the bunch.

I am not trying to challenge any one else's definition of simmer. Nor do I feel that my simmer should be so sensitive that I have to have an exact pot to flame ratio with a specific pot no less to make it work. It should just work, perhaps with another adjustment, or a spacer device.

Regards to all, your posts are always a pleasure and I enjoy reading them.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Here is a picture of the burner I normally use for simmering. No fire in the outer ring, a few holes not lit in the middle ring and no clicking.

I might be wrong on this but I would be very hesitant to operate a burner that had any unlit ports. To me that means you have unburned natural gas exiting the burner head. I don't know the exact count but from the picture it would seem you've got about 40 ports, or about 40% of your burner head, unlit!

I am not going to suggest that your house is going to blow up but, to me, that's as far from an appropriate solution as one can get. Would you simmer a stock for 8 hours like that? You're a better person than I.

-Stooxie


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

All this is silly. almost 2 years since its been out, you would think Capital would just make a smaller burner head available.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Mangiamo - we are cut from the same bunch, I think [for a while I thought GW was populated disproportionately with sciencey-mathy-engineer types but after asking, came to realize that instead I think folks of this predilection as opposed to, say, them what sport a humanities-bent, self-select the threads they participate in so it seems, sometimes, there are an inordinate number of science-types here to me].

I'm no chef either and deeageaux' numbers while interesting, don't help me much. With some experience at "the bench", I can follow a recipe fairly well in the kitchen (not that I often do) and mostly, have a family, love good food and spend a huge amount of time in service to it.

However, I don't know much about what I do do. For example, it's news to me that the amount of liquid being simmered matters. I thought that the volume would affect how quickly the liquid came up to temperature, but it can't really go above or much above the temperature of the flame, right? So in effect unless you're simmering massive quantities of something, in short order only, the volume will become irrelevant soon enough. That said, I confess to not understanding temperature much, ever. With red face I will admit to being very, very open for correction about this. For example, I do recall that PV=nRT so temperature and volume are related in some sense; just not clear that it matters functionally, in a kitchen with a too-hot burner and dinner-type quantities (as opposed to, say, institutional). Empirically, it is clear that the viscosity and composition of what you're simmering matters too -- thus letting cranberries go unattended on simmer resulted in a big sticky scorched disaster that I'm sure is related to the high sugar content of the mess. etc. Again, off-point, probably.

Nevertheless, for the record, I cook rice in le creuset pans (very heavy enameled cast iron). Much of what I simmer if it's a sauce, will be in that sort of pan, though sometimes not enameled. However, soups often get constructed in a large aluminum (I think?) canning pot (thus considerably thinner). My disperser seems to help a little, but not perfectly, thus I've been reluctant to shell out for a comal though perhaps they're not as expensive as I fear (I would head for a Mexican flea market).

But yeah - I agree this all seems sort of silly. There's been a long, steady chorus of dismay over this under/non-performing aspect of these otherwise exceptional machines.

I haven't spoken up earlier, shrunken by the sheepishness I do feel for having possibly bought into too much hype about an untried machine; my brand of taking responsibility for the problem. But also I hoped with a little patience and time and enough complaints from others, Capital would give in as suggested by Tony. It seems so many individuals have had so many of these conversations with Mr Kalsi -- why on earth is he so refractory about this?

At least, in wondering about this latter question that's also been some of my reason for staying silent now for a while -- it is still possible this is 'operator-error', and that's why Mr Kalsi is reluctant to give in to the many pleas for a smaller burner.

So I repeat: is it me, the burner or perception? There's no denying that I can't keep liquid, of any volume, composition or containment, from boiling while on "simmer".


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Stooxie: Interesting observation and comment � but I am not sure if it is correct or not.

With the simmer adjustment turned down to where it is in the picture with no flame in the outer ring there is absolutely no smell of gas anywhere near the stove. I am no gas flow expert but I think what happens is the gas moves first to the highest level of the burner with holes which is the middle ring, then to the inner ring and then finally the outer ring. If the volume and pressure of gas is very low as I have it adjusted I believe ALL of the gas is exiting the inner and middle rings and there is no gas exiting the outer ring.

IF the volume and pressure of the gas were greater, as in a 150K Btu fish cooker or wok burner, and all of the burner ports were not burning then I think it would be a concern. I guess I need to get my friends NG sniffer and see if there is any unburned gas that I can�t smell.

Aliris: I am with you � my wife and I are not chefs, not professional cooks just a couple of Joe Six Packs who enjoy cooking. Although my primary degree is in chemistry and I have a strong scientific background we both cook primarily by FEEL and taste. I don�t need to analyze the construction and material of the cooking vessel, don�t need to measure the size of the pot or consider the volume of soup or viscosity of the spaghetti sauce - if it is boiling I turn the heat DOWN. If the burner is turned all the way down and it stills boils then it is too hot - pretty simple.

We really love our CC and did not buy it for its simmer capability, but nothing, and I mean nothing, is perfect and EVERYTHING can be improved. Can I cook and live without a very low simmer on my CC � you betcha. Am I going to try to achieve a sub-simmer capability, even though I don�t use it often � you betcha. I guess it is the challenge of the problem that interests me.

Here are the solutions as I see them for resolving the simmer issue with the CC:

1. Mr. Kalsi and Capital need to develop and market a very low Btu simmer burner for those of us who want one.

2. An aftermarket outfit like Trevor and Eurostoves could modify a burner ring by blocking the ports in the two outer rings and supply it with an appropriately sized orifice and sell it as a post purchase product. (I don�t really think Trevor or any company for that matter would be willing to do this because of the lawyers who would get involved)

3. Someone needs to identify or make a simmer plate for the CC that actually works.

4. Don�t worry about it and be more attentive when you are cooking at low heat. (And no Stooxie buying a BS is not an option).

Just my thoughts - IceMan


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Numbers are objective and not subjective.

We can get away from "It is low enough for me" or "it is too high for me"

We can repeat in our own homes and see if experienes match up.

We can post if we are at high altitude or on propane.

We can then say objectivly "it works" and Capital does not need to change the burner or "it does not work" and Capital needs to change the burner or offer a dedicated simmer for people that want to get below "X" temperature.

If not it becomes endless inconclusive chatter.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Fair enough, deeageaux. But this is also the bottom line: "if it is boiling I turn the heat DOWN. If the burner is turned all the way down and it stills boils then it is too hot - pretty simple. "

All the same, the point of this sort of public forum is for we-consumers to be able to compare notes, and if comparisons aren't valid, the point is lost.

In this spirit:

I am at sea level. On NG (I think?). The burner is not working for me and this was after adjustment in-home by Capital itself. "Not working" is defined in the "IceMan sense" above.

I would love to get some handle on the scale of this problem out there. Please everyone, chime in for an informal poll. And double-please: that means you should chime in if you have no problems simmering as well. If you don't have enough data to know -- that is if you don't use the simmer much, then please say so and don't just say "no problem".

Thanks...


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

I'm happy to do a simmer challenge. PLease let me know which thermometer to buy. Also, if we can get specific recipes to follow that would be great. That way there is no bias in the results attributed to a poorly calibrated instrument or the steps taken in preparing the food.

However we do use different pots so maybe just the size can be stipulated. It may introduce some variability to the results but if we identify which company we used then we may be able to see a trend if only the people who use All Clad for example are the ones having the problem.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Why not all use an equal volume of water, in pots of equal capacity, and maybe weigh the pots if you can (prior to filling them) Figure out a consistent method--bring to boil, reduce to lowest simmer, measure temp after 1/2 hr or 1 hr. Report altitude, too.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

The only way this comparison testing will work is if everyone does the same thing with the same pan, same thermometer and same liquid. Just look at the results on the Appliance advisor's website.

http://applianceadvisor.com/content/peoples-cooktop-test

The above test failed to be conclusive because of the variations involved.

If we eliminate the thermostat from the equation it becomes easier, after all simmer is a form of cooking not a temperature. Water as a medium wont work sorry, nobody simmers water, just like nobody cooks on paper, some people will remember one of the dumbest videos ever made, and I can say that because it was my video.

So to that end if people want to do comparison testing I would say lets try to simmer 2 x tins of Campbell's Broccoil Cheese soup (condensed) mix with 2 x tins of water.

In the very rough video I uploaded to You Tube under "GW Simmer Comparison Test" I am using a Fissler Pan 8" wide at the base. Try this test and see what happens....

As for Icemans options.

1) Agreed.... Capital should be the ones to make a simmer burner if that's what people want.

2) Jail is not a nice place I understand.

3) Any simmer plate with ridges will work 8" would be a good size 6" will also work for small pan's.

4) Watching what you do is important when cooking, but you should not have to hover over the range to cook.

I also agree with Iceman if it boils on simmer it's to hot, now what is a boil 3 bubbles 5 bubbles 10 bubbles ?? I don't know what people are calling a boil.

Some people say the simmer on the CC is to hot and it wont simmer, this I don't doubt is correct for SOME people. Having said that, I don't recall a customer who has brought this issue to me and not been able resolve the problem by tweaking it themselves or calling in service or using a simmer plate when / if needed.

If you follow this comparison test and your soup boils more than mine did we can deduce the following

1) You burner is set to high, (Call for Service or tweak it yourself)

2) You are using poor quality pans.

Sorry but I don't see any other explanation as to what the cause could be.

All the above does not detract from the fact that I still think Capital should put a dedicated simmer burner on the Culinarian, nor does it detract from the fact that IMO the Capital Culinarian is an excellent all round range.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

I must have missed a communication or something in here: what "challenge test"? Anyway, doesn't really matter...

But what's the outcome to Trevor's "challenge" with the canned soup? As you say Trevor, "boiling" is a subjective call. [I'll just note that when I say "boil" it means bloops of material (or gas; whatever) come up to the surface and cause a bubble to break there and this process repeats; it is not possible to lower the temperature enough to stop it.]

As for the broccoli cheese soup (btw, is that even edible??), to recreate the way I cook at least, I would want to first bring the soup to a boil then turn it down, trying to get it to drop below boiling temperature and hold there. That's a fairly standard kitchen party trick I think?


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Options not yet suggested:

Gray market for trading one CC dragon's breath burner for one Contractor special candle breath burner.

Buy a portable induction cooktop and set it on an unused burner grate.

Use a high sided, highly conductive pan that will radiate excessive heat input as fast as it is input. Possibly sandblasted copper would work.

Fabricate a pair of air-gapped stainless steel plates that are larger than the pan or pot. Only a fraction of the heat will be conducted into the pan base. Some experimentation required for establishing the air gap.

kas


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

I can't understand why simmering issue can't be resolved. These ranges are not marketed to the masses so why can't the manufactures listen to the problems and fix them. If it cost more money to get the stove with the burners we want charge us
for it. When you get in the $6000.00 range who cares about a few hundred more. Put good sliding full extension oven racks and charge us for it. Put an assortment of BTU burners and charge us for it. The customer is suppose to be right and they will pay for it if that's what they want. Capital could be the best hands down if they would correct a few issues. If they don't then they are just up there with the top ranges and not number 1. No one is the clear front runner NOW. So the debate will go forever and concessions on our part on these ranges will continue. S__t or get off the pot and fix these issues.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

aliris... my post above was as a result of reading mangiamo and marcolo posts. I was just trying to suggest a comparison test that would work. If those who are having problems can not achieve the same results I show in the video something is wrong.

If you'd watched the video you would have seen my party trick is the same as yours when it comes to soup.

But you prove my point perfectly as can be seen from the descriptions of "what is a simmer" below from the first page of google. as you can see ALL mention bubble breaking the surface when simmering, where as you suggest that is boiling...

Definition: In the culinary arts, the word Simmer means to cook a food in liquid with a temperature ranging from 180�F to 205�F. Simmering is a cooking technique that's used when making stocks or soups, starchy items like potatoes or pastas, and many other culinary preparations.
Examples:
With simmering you'll see bubbles forming and gently rising to the surface of the water, but the water is not yet at a full rolling boil.

ANOTHER

Simmering is a food preparation technique in which foods are cooked in hot liquids kept at or just below the boiling point of water[1] (which is 100 �C or 212 �F at average sea level air pressure), but higher than poaching temperature. To keep a pot simmering, one brings it to a boil and then reduces the heat to a point where the formation of steam bubbles has all but ceased, typically a water temperature of about 94 �C (200 �F).

ANOTHER

But for most purposes, a simmer is the stage when the water is in motion but almost no bubbles break the surface; they're trying to, but the water's surface tension holds them in place. Boiling, though, refers to liquid that's in full motion, with bubbles rapidly rising to the surface.

ANOTHER

Simmering water is water just below the boiling point, say, between 200�F and 211�F (93�C and 99�C) at sea level, generally characterized by very small bubbles that rise to the surface. To simmer is to cook food in any simmering liquid, including water, wine, fruit juice, stock, beer, milk, cream, yogurt, etc.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

>I can't understand why simmering issue can't be resolved. These ranges are not marketed to the masses so why can't the manufactures listen to the problems and fix them. If it cost more money to get the stove with the burners we want charge us

Exactely! Bluestar does this, and kudos for them for such.

>Capital could be the best hands down if they would correct a few issues

Um ya....I wouldn't go that far. However you could say that about just about any product/company. "If brand x would only correct this and that and that and this they would be the best"

> If they don't then they are just up there with the top ranges and not number 1.

Sorry, but they never ever will be. Maybe number one to person a, but number 2 or 3 or 5 to person b, but a broad statement like that is untrue for many.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

I started out a couple of weeks ago to update our kitchen with
a few appliances and ended up caught up in this forum looking for users best picks. As a contractor I have been involved with small makeovers to kitchens that cost over $200,000.00.
I have installed most upper brands and seen them go from being the best to going to the bottom. In respect to ranges in this category you have pretty and you have functional. It is tough to be both and most don't succeed. Competition is what makes companies better. If BS and CC would listen to their customers and make changes they both would kill the other competition. Make them pretty for the customer or women and make them functional for the cook. Solve hot door issues, fit and finish, simmer issues, etc. and the other brands will lose more customers. Wolf, Viking, Thermador, have lost a lot of their customers do to service, costing more and giving less, and cooks wanting them. If you want a beautiful kitchen to look at then these are the best. If you want a workhorse kitchen then you have to look at these two. They make ranges not dishwashers, microwaves,steamers, etc. I finally realize that we will get what we get and not what we want even if we are willing to pay for it.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Lannie: I agree whole heartedly with most of the above that you say. However no product is going to be the best for every person. What is the best car? Who the heck knows? It depends. For me the best range is a bs 48" rnb and I happen to own one. I would certainly make improvements if I had my way, but it is the closest to perfect on the market for me. But everyone has different requirements. Recently there was a poster that bought a wolf because brand recognition was important to her. For me, I don't think that is as important as cooking performance, but to her the opposite is obviously true.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on di

Lannie: I forgot to ask...are you going to post your pics in the kitchen forum when done? I'd love to see what a fellow contractor(well ex contractor in my case) does to his own pad. :)


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Trevor says: "But you prove my point perfectly ..."

is the point you're refering to that, essentially, she says boil and he says roil? That is, one person's simmer is another person's boil? ... that there's just a semantic, definitional problem going on here?

Because let me assure you, the definitions you post of what constitutes a simmer are exactly what I've always understood it to be. And this is not what happens on my factory-set simmer. There are no slow bubbles, or small bubbles at the edges, there are large, constant, never-ending, rapid center-bubbles -- not what I would term a "roiling boil" - as in 'add pasta now', but definitely not a leave-this-soup-to-stew-all-day simmer.

Let me try to give a more concrete example. I recently made chicken soup in a large aluminum canning pot with three chicken carcasses, filled to the top with water and other goodies. I put the lid on. I raised the temperature to boil and turned it to simmer. I neglected to place the pot on my gerryrigged comal. I left the kitchen around 9:30pm. By 12:30am, 3 hours later, 2/3 of the water was all gone, boiled away.

By my understanding, one should be able to leave a large pot of water simmering, if covered, without fear of it boiling off so quickly. And when I say large, I mean, um -- dunno what the volume would be, but it's 10"h x 11"d

Another example: following the claim that someone at eurostoves held a hollandaise on the CC all afternoon, I made a hollandaise sauce in a le creuset skillet (yum -- I was so looking forward to eggs benedict!). DD was to return in 20 min and we were all going to pig out... but by the time she returned, the sauce had curdled. It was perfect when I turned away, set it on simmer as instructed by Julia Child .. and it just got too hot I guess. :( (Julia Child is right, though, it can be rescued, sort of). So: how did you hold that hollandaise on your CC all afternoon? In a pan of water? If that's necessary, then that's my bad: I didn't. But it was something of an experiment, I'll confess.

I may be no professional chef, but I do know the difference between a simmer and a boil, I think. And frankly, while I know 'the public' has all sorts of wacky claims and ideas, I personally believe the steady chorus of people here who say their machine does not simmer properly; there are just too many of us, too many good-enough cooks willing to shell out this much money who I believe are cognizant of the difference between a simmer and a boil. I don't think people learning to boil eggs are in the market for a Culinarian. And I do think those who sell one to us should have a little more trust in our words.

Other things I can't do: saute onions without constant attention; they scorch. Even with heavy pans and oil. This did not happen on my old stove, but I cannot get the flame low enough to gently cook the onions (needed for Indian food, for example). Frustrating.

Do we need to rise up in revolt to Capital? Do we need to demonstrate, say with surveymonkey, that there are a substantial number of people suffering this problem? What will it take to be believed? What will it take for then to care enough to fix the 'untrue simmer'?


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

>: following the claim that someone at eurostoves held a hollandaise on the CC all afternoon

that is a kitchen trick would like to eye witness :)

>Do we need to rise up in revolt to Capital? Do we need to demonstrate, say with surveymonkey, that there are a substantial number of people suffering this problem? What will it take to be believed? What will it take for then to care enough to fix the 'untrue simmer'?

My predictions are usually pretty good....Don't worry, you will be getting your simmer burner.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

>: following the claim that someone at eurostoves held a hollandaise on the CC all afternoon
that is a kitchen trick would like to eye witness :)

...well, I sure hope I haven't remembered the claim wrongly. Is this not a possibility? I don't really know but it was what I understood and took as inspiration. Maybe that's just asking too much. But I think JChild mentions the feat as well. Hmm... This entry suggests it's possible too. But maybe not on any stove if it's supposed to be kept just a mite above room temperature.

>Do we need to rise up in revolt to Capital? Do we need to demonstrate, say with surveymonkey, that there are a substantial number of people suffering this problem? What will it take to be believed? What will it take for then to care enough to fix the 'untrue simmer'?
My predictions are usually pretty good....Don't worry, you will be getting your simmer burner.

I thought as much too, which is why in part I've said nothing about this for so many months. I'm not so sure any longer.

Here's what I don't get. Does Capital: (a) not believe there's a problem? (b) not care even if there were? (c) think the number of affected users is minimal? (d) balk at the expense of fixing the (perceived) problem? (e) balk at introducing any diminution of the uber-high-powered burner? (f) favor the simplicity of the all-the-same burners? [design choice for status quo] (g) something else? (what?)

Is the GW chorus just noisy little ankle-biters or is this a de facto test-market?

Before some solution can be found, a problem must be agreed upon. I don't get the sense that it is acknowledged by the company that there really is a problem.

In fact, I have a pretty positive impression of the responsiveness of the company such that I believe were they to agree there were a problem, they would come through with a fix for it. So if this presumption is so, that pretty well implies this suspicion, that Capital does not believe there is a simmer problem.

I think I see a long, slim 3/16" screwdriver in my future... (I tried to use one I have designed for electronics, but it's too stubby). But if that's the only problem with my simmer, that means Capital's techs set mine wrong. And I'm gonna be some-suprised if this actually does turn out to be a fix because half my burners click sporadically as is; hard to see how they could be effectively set much lower.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Aliris,
I'm so glad you took up the sword for those of us unhappy with our simmer. I stand as one of the bananas in your bunch.

Altitude: 130 feet above sea level

Fuel: Natural gas 36" rangetop with 6 burners in use for 3+ months

Pans: DH works for a restaurant supply company so all my pots and pans come from him. Most are Vollrath 18-8 stainless. I also have a Le Creuset pan packed in the garage from our whole house reno.

Experience: Professional recipe follower with no formal training. Just a home cook to loves food and to cook, try new food, entertain, and dream of one day going to cooking school.

My definition of simmer: What Trevor said

Trouble: Lowest simmer produces vigorous and loud bubbles, popping rapidly on the surface in the middle and on the sides

Affected dishes thus far: 4 lb pot roast with all the veg, chili both turkey and traditional, soup, red beans with ham hock

Work-arounds found unsuccessful: Offsetting pot from flame, heavy simmer plate, tipping lid, removing lid, burner adjustment with screwdriver, double stacking grates

Burner pics: My front center burner on its lowest flame without any adjustments.

Lowest setting on front center CC rangetop burner

Lowest setting on front center CC rangetop burner, lights on

I adjusted the back center burner last Friday with a screw driver that was a tad too short so I couldn't really feel what I was doing. I adjusted it too low as it now clicks on the lowest knob setting. I have to turn the knob up about two knob markings from the bottom to alleviate the click.

My need to adjust came at my frustration to simmer red beans and ham hocks for the requisite 3-4 hours without the pot boiling heavily and loudly. Much of the water was gone within an hour so I added, and kept having to add, more to compensate. I've never had to do that until the CC.

Frustration rose. I again tried DH's grandfather's old fashioned, heavy simmer plate with no bubble diminution. In desperation, I pulled a grate off a neighboring burner and double stacked them like so and offset the lid as per Jscout's instruction. (Pan is a Vollrath 44731 Intrigue 9 qt sauce pot weighing in empty at 6lbs 9.5oz.)

Double stacking burner and offset lid still too hot for red beans and ham

All of this finagling didn't reduce the simmer. Many bubbles still rising rapidly from the middle and the sides.

None of this is from neglect as I attend to pans on long-term cooks every 15-20 minutes, rarely leave the kitchen or family room open to the kitchen, and never leave the house. In fact, I have to monitor and stir these problem dishes so often when I cook them that I find myself standing in the kitchen near the rangetop for those hours.

I'm afraid to try steel cut oats, that I adore and used to cook a few times a week, and rice (at least I have a rice cooker). I don't want to count on either of these as part of a meal and then have them fail miserably due to the high simmer and have my meal plans ruined.

Now that I'm writing this out, I realize how I'm jumping through hoops to cook something that needs less than fire-alarm flames and how my very expensive cooking equipment precludes me from cooking some things I'd like to.

In summary, my fairly heavy duty pots can't produce a defined simmer on any burner, including the one I adjusted as low as it could go without clicking, despite the work-arounds of this nearly sea level, NG-using, non-professional home cook who was so excited to purchase and cook on a CC rangetop.

I'd really like to simmer. Simmer. According to Trevor's definition. Simmer. Please.


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Trevor

Trevor--I appreciate that you stick around here and assist so many GWers, both customers and non. You mentioned that, to your memory, every customer who couldn't simmer has had it resolved with:
1. tweaking,
2. calling in service,
3. using a simmer plate.

Well,
1. I tried that using the screwdriver. Didn't work.
2. I think service will do exactly what I did--stick a screwdriver in the stem and twist. Didn't work.
3. I've used what I *think* is a simmer plate. Didn't work.

Perhaps you could provide a link to a simmer plate that would reduce my rapid boil on the lowest setting to a true low simmer?


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

breezygirl,

I've come to the conclusion that simmer plates do very little on the CC. I also think I know why.

Simmer plates help spread the heat and they slow the transfer of heat from the burner, but they CANNOT reduce the amount of heat coming from the burner. Some types of simmer plates (especially the double-layer ones) channel the heat away from the center of the burner, but if you are using a big pot the heat will hit the bottom of the pot anyway. This is why big pots with stews, beans, etc. that you want to simmer keep boiling over -- the wide bottom of the pot catches almost all the heat from the burner even if you put one or two or three simmer plates between the burner and the pot as I have tried.

I hope this helps explain why simmer plates don't work to reduce the heat from a simmer burner that is too hot. The heat is going straight up and the simmer plate slows the heat transfer at first, but once it gets hot so does the pot.

Almost all simmer plates are smaller than large pots, so simmer plates flatly don't work when the pot is much wider than the simmer plate. The simmer plate just diverts the heat to the edges of the pot (LOL, just like a closed burner) and the pot gets hot anyway.

A simmer plate with a small pot might work if the bottom of the pot is smaller than the simmer plate.

It might be possible to design a large simmer plate that diverts the heat away from the pot but (1) this would be a large and unwieldy simmer plate, and (2) this would cause the heat to be channeled toward other pots and pot handles on the stove -- which is hardly a good solution.

Billy


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

This is a rather absurd situation. If inexpensive brands can simmer satisfactorily then there's no reason that an expensive, highly touted brand can't simmer as well. These units should be factory calibrated and the owner shouldn't have to do anything providing they supply a decent pot, the proper volume of gas and know how to turn a knob.

We've cooked on everything from a camp stove to a Garland and never have had an issue with maintaining a decent simmer. Nearly every dinner we prepare involves using a simmer at some point even if it's just to keep something warm until everyone shows up. We're currently using a 6 year old Dacor Epicure 6 burner - all 15,000 BTUs and haven't had a simmer problem. We only use the simmer plate when using our 12 quart Macy's Dutch oven which is thinner than our Le Creuset, Calphalon and cast iron pieces.

I've been reading these threads with great interest because in our next home we're hoping to have a CC or a Blue Star or equivalent. Seeing how this issue is resolved will play into our decision on which brand to purchase.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

>Here's what I don't get. Does Capital: (a) not believe there's a problem? (b) not care even if there were? (c) think the number of affected users is minimal? (d) balk at the expense of fixing the (perceived) problem? (e) balk at introducing any diminution of the uber-high-powered burner? (f) favor the simplicity of the all-the-same burners? [design choice for status quo] (g) something else? (what?)

A) they know there is a problem but certain ego's make it hard to lose face. All these companies monitor these forum, and we know for sure capital does. Simmer issues have been floating around for some time on the net. It has recently really started to boil tho (pun intended) (see part b below)
B) they will only care when it affects sales
C) they know that is not the case and that will affect b) above so you WILL see a simmer burner in your future
D) that is definately a factor but probably not the factor. I wouldn't expect kalsi to send you the upgrade kits free tho. (Research him a bit)
E) this is a BIG issue. Because the cc was marketed as being so darn superior to a bs in part because of all burners apparently being high output AND simmer. Its never mentioned however that if you choose to have that same "feature" on a bs it can be yours if you spec that out (and pay for it)


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

This is a rather absurd situation. If inexpensive brands can simmer satisfactorily then there's no reason that an expensive, highly touted brand can't simmer as well. These units should be factory calibrated and the owner shouldn't have to do anything providing they supply a decent pot, the proper volume of gas and know how to turn a knob.

I think you are correct but this is the complexity of trying to be all things to all people. Capital has to make all sorts of trade-offs and one of them is which attributes will minimize initial service calls. Clearly the tolerances are too tight on the ignition system because the "clicking" seems to be the gating factor in reducing the simmer to acceptable levels for some. It also required an early "hack" which is that weird (sorry) metal disk around it. How many times have we read "I turned the screw until it started clicking."

So it is a choice for Capital: adjust these things down pretty low and risk having lots of people with the clicking or leave it higher and more tolerant of environmental variables. Initial service calls will be lower if they do the latter and they figure most people won't mind the output at the lowest setting.

Could Capital produce a simmer burner? Of course. Are they thinking about it? Probably. Is it a business decision? You bet. Having all burners be the same is a point of differentiation between Capital and Bluestar and one that they may not be so willing to let go of.

This is just one of the many compromises/trade-offs they had to make to get the CC to "beat" the BS on paper. What we are seeing is if it all works out in reality.

I am saying all this quite objectively, btw. The evidence is in the threads right here on GW. Point isn't that one is better than the other, but that those who bought CC should understand what they are buying and be happy with it!

There is no magic. 100 gas ports cannot somehow put out less heat than 35!!

-Stooxie


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Breezy: steelcut oats - exactly! For years I was desperate to have mine again. Then when the simmer problems were immediately evident, I held off a long while even after we had kitchen-liftoff. Eventually I tackled it all the same. It was a big mess as so much boiled out and away, but I stirred it a lot, set it on two racks and offset the pan and had sort of functional oatmeal. Once. It was a big pain and I haven't repeated it. Funny the ways we unconsciously shift our whole set of habits without really focusing on the reason or the culprit. I want my oats back! Actually -- you just said precisely that, didn't you! Thanks for the post ... ;)

Stooxie: spot on, well said. I guess. sigh. Except ... I did buy the CC for the simmer; I was swayed by the paper-video. I used to make yogurt just about daily and always wound up with a yucky pan-bottom; I was hoping I could get a true low-temperature simmer... as promised. I did also realize that buying a new product is risky, but it was my sense that as the seller and manufacturer were so heavily involved and invested in consumers' input, there would be ongoing tweaks and attention available. In truth, I think that latter presumption may still be true, but I am frankly surprised to still see the point having to be made that the simmer isn't working. There is a bit of a "blame the victim" tone going on that's a teensy bit hard to take. Though in fairness, there may be something to it: I am not a professional chef and I admit it is still possible I am somehow doing something wrong. I think, though I haven't counted, that the non-pros among us may be the ones having the most trouble. This may also, if true, be due to other, incidental reasons of course.

Anyway, I will definitely own up to the unwise wishful thinking of having too much at once, true simmer and high-power output all from all burners. The big lie aside, it just may be the case that this is a logical contradiction, a physical impossibility.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Breezy, right off the bat, your simmer pictured is too high and definitely can and should be adjusted lower. What kind of simmer plate do you have? A flat one? Or is it one that has raised bits that minimize contact with the pot? The flat ones are useless. Those are only useful for spreading heat evenly across the bottom of a pan, not reducing. The amount of contact is the key.

I guess I'm in the minority here so maybe I'm really the lone banana. I don't have any issues with the simmering. That doesn't mean it's not a problem for the general public. Just not me. But then again, I'm probably one of the few who really wanted a commercial range in my home. For me, the CC was the perfect compromise, since it is rated for residential use yet behaves most like a commercial range out of the box. When I was considering the BS, I definitely would have swapped out the midrange burners for the higher ones. But, I might have left the single simmer alone.

I'm not going to make any apologies for Capital, but I don't think they lied when they advertise "true simmer." They told the truth. The burner does do a true simmer as deeageaux describes according to the textbook definition. The problem is that it doesn't do a low simmer, which is what the target market is looking for and interprets, when they see "true simmer." Lie? No. Deceptive or misleading? I'd say yeah.

Hopefully, Capital will come up with a resolution that will enable everyone to have a happy cooking experience.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

tyguy.... Is a smart guy, especially point A.

Breezy the burner in the dark picture is WAY to high, it will go lower.

When the CC arrived in my store over 2 years ago it had 4 x 23k btu burners. When the engineer arrived about 4 weeks after the stove arrival I made him change two burners 1 x 15k btu 1 x 8 k btu which left 2 x 23k btu burner

We sold a good number of units with that configuration. at a later date the factory decided that the burners I changed were not needed, so they changed them back to all 23k btu.

I did all I could to change that decision with no success, and have been fighting a lonely battle now for 2 years. not because in general the range does not simmer but because it was a dumb ass thing to do from a customers perspective.

I would suggest that anyone with a simmer issue call capital and have them send a service tech, time spent on the phone with Capital will be worth your while, and may enforce my consistent crying to them. I am sure if Capital had a flurry of calls asking for service it would highlight the simmer issue even more than these threads.

The way I see it.....The main problem is when capital ENGINEERS including Mr Kalsi test the simmer they say it works and to be fair it does when they test it in the factory, I did explain that simmering water is dumb because nobody simmers water they should simmer food, second they need to stop looking at this from a ENGINEERS perspective and start to look at it from a customer satisfaction / marketing angle.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Trevor,

You summed it up as nicely as possible. Thank you.

Billy


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

I know a thing or two about working for an engineering led company versus a sales led company. The engineering led company (Sun) believed that our products were always great, no matter what the market thought or in what direction it went. It was swallowed up by the business led company (Oracle) that knows you don't develop a product without a good handle on your market.

Fascinating, thanks for that insight!

-Stooxie


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)!-2

Stooxie,

I agree this was a good insight from Trevor -- been there with a startup that was all engineers without enough business sense!

The sad thing is the CC burner, as good as it is, could use a little more engineering and a lot more business finesse.

Billy


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Here are some devices that really will reduce the heat reaching the pan:

Flame Tamer
Ilsa 7-Inch Cast Iron Heat Defuser [sic]
IMCG SMOC2 SimmerMat blue heat diffuser

I imagine a decent local appliance store might keep something similar.

They are all fairly cheap; it would be very helpful if one of the CC owners here would obtain one or more of them and report on their results.


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Links one at a time, #1

Oh good - the forums software doesn't let us post links within messages. I'll post them one-at-a-time.

Here is a link that might be useful: 8


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Links one at a time, #2

And it messed up the description in link #1 above. I do love "helpful" software...

Here is a link that might be useful: Ilsa 7-Inch Cast Iron Heat Defuser


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Links one at a time, #3

Last link...

Here is a link that might be useful: IMCG SMOC2 SimmerMat blue heat diffuser


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

PeterH2,

I bought two of the Flame Tamers (first link) and two of the SimmerMats (third link) and they don't work. If you read my explanation of why they don't work above, you might understand why.

To be more accurate, these items help a little bit but they do not prevent a larger pot from boiling on simmer even when two simmer plates are stacked underneath.

Billy


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

I can't comment since my CC rangetop is still strapped to the pallet awaiting countertop install.

Since there are those that say they don't have a problem, I am wondering if the gas supply could be a source of the problem as well. Not sure how many had new lines put in or new lines that run back to the meter for full gas flow. I would imagine that if the flow wasn't high/strong enough that one couldn't turn the orifice down enough before running into the clicking problem. Possible???

Obviously a solution is doable since As Trevor stated they had smaller burners offered at the start before going to all 23k. So it may not be possible to alter the current burner but a burner change is possible, assuming capital would again offer that option. Although I would imagine that isn't a DIY option.

The other side is once you have cabinets made and counters cut for a particular model, it's not so easy to just return it for a new model. Especially with the rangetop. Other costs involved so a solution to the problem is the best option.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Thanks, Trevor, for sticking by us-all, especially on this long, lonely vigil.

OK, Capital Culinarian Consumers: ball's in the court of the low simmerers (as opposed to the true simmerers, quite possibly a skill- and expectation-based difference. Which as consumers, may not be a propos; dunno, quite frankly.)

If you are having trouble with the simmer on your stove, please phone Capital and weigh in on your experience: Capital's website

Their phone number is: (562) 903-1168 or (866) 402-4600 Toll Free

You can email: customerservice@capital-cooking.com

I guess it would help to have in mind what you want when you call to complain -- always a good rule of thumb. ;) Me, what I want I don't know whether the consensus here would support... What I want is for Capital to retrofit one of the burners with one of those original 8K burners. I would justify this on the basis of my purchase made with the understanding that I would be receiving a machine that could perform a "true simmer" on any of all burners. And my experience is that this is not possible. Moreover I suspect it may not be possible, inherently.

I realize it's possible my understanding of "true simmer" may be faulty -- this had never occurred to me before today, frankly. And in my defense, Trevor's functional definition is what I have in mind when I look for a "true simmer", nomenclature aside. Deeageaux' original definitions with temperatures now have me really curious. I wonder how they gybe with jscout's professional's understanding. Which, BTW, sounds to me as if it is in conflict with Trevor's.

I understand that the jury's still out as to whether there is a semantic misunderstanding here or an engineering snafu or a customer-support issue, or whatever else, say, non-professional-mucking-about-ignorantly-in-a-pro's-world. Dunno. But as this is just one of three issues I've had that leave me feeling off-kilter in my affection for the beast, this is an "ecological unhappiness", if you will. This is just my 0.02 -- the point of these threads is for you to speak up about yours too!


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Hi All,

After 9 years of planning off and on, we're about to begin a full kitchen renovation next week. The range was a crucial decision for me since I've been cooking on (and periodically cursing) a Maytag glasstop for 10 years now -- but it does do an excellent low simmer!

We've spec'd a CC largely based on feedback from GW members, but being unable to simmer adequately is a real deal-killer. I'm close to calling the cabinet co. and switching to a BS before they finish the cabinets. I'm particularly concerned since we'll be using LP, which I understand burns hotter.

I've followed these simmer threads very closely, and can tell it's incredibly frustrating for everyone involved, but I still haven't been able to get a good feel for how pervasive the CC simmer problem is, or whether LP or NG makes a difference. Does anyone out there have a good feel for that? I don't know anyone personally with a CC, but based on the GW threads (and a general google search), it seems like jscout and trevor are almost the only ones who have been happily simmering away on a CC.

Thanks to all for all the incredibly helpful info. I've gleaned over the years from this forum -- I've never posted before, but I've enjoyed watching all of your kitchens come to life!


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

I am in almost the same situation as snowyct. We are building a house and have been meaning to call Trevor for the past 2 weeks to get a price on my 48" CC that I've been planning the kitchen around.
If I can't do a 5 hour low gentle simmer on my red beans for red beans and rice, a 3 hour simmer for my gumbo or etouffee then I'm going to have to reconsider. I'm at the critical point of having final cabinet dimensions worked on now.
The lack of a slow simmer is pretty frightening. If all I did was sear and wok cook then I wouldn't be so worried, but I do a lot of "long and slow" and don't want to give it up.
I had assumed that a diffuser plate would do the trick. If that isn't the case then I'm really unsure of what to do.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

I've had jambalaya and chicken sauce piquant boil over. My wife has been cooking the red beans and she hasn't had big problems but she stands around and stirs them (in an all-clad pot). I do the sauce piquant in a big cast iron pot and the jambalaya in a big heavy aluminum pot.

Billy


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Well, you KNOW you can simmer till the cows come home on the BS. Unless you have your heart set on the rotisserie... Haven't we disproved the theory yet that the CC is God's gift?

-Stooxie


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

How did Capital miss the simmer mark?
Well let's go back a couple of years in GW History.

Trevor was working with Capital to design a new range.
Folks on GW were asked for their inputs and what they wanted.

At the time, different sized burners were being considered, and that question was put to the GW folks.
The group of "Non-movers" won, they said they did not
like juggling around pots/pans to different burners and
indeed this group was in the majority, compared to those
that wanted different size burners, simmer burners, etc.

So the decision was made to go with all big burners.
If you go back, (assuming you can find those old posts), I don't recall a single post about "Simmer", unfortunately it has become "Super Afterthought".

So "Maybe" just maybe the folks at Capital,
(at this moment) are in a bit of a "State of Disbelief".
They, as well as Trevor, and the folks in GW who chimed in during the development stages, all tried to Develope
"The Perfect Range".

Don't you think it's strange that "Such A Low Down Thing" has now popped up to byte them in the Hiney???

There is hope, It would not be that hard to have a separate feed so just the very center of the burner is lit, and then we would have what "All the Good Folks",(Trevor, Capital and the GW'ers), had orignally hoped to design.!

And Yes TV Guy, It would be better than BS, (You Too Stooxie), is not 5 simmer burners better than one or maybe 2?

Gary


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

aliris19, could you update us when you get a response from Capital? Like others, I am beginning to have second thoughts about purchasing a CC if the simmer issue can't be resolved once and for all. I don't do that much high heat cooking, but low heat issues would be a deal-killer for me!


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

In the interest of helping the community any way I can, I'm going to try to make some red sauce this weekend and try to record my simmer. I made a Jambalaya for dinner on Mardi Gras and I had no problems whatsoever. When it was done and we finished dinner, the bottom of the pan had a nice pale gold crust in the shape of the burner. No burns, no boil-overs. I also made two portions of steel-cut oats for breakfast last week and didn't have any issues. Maybe I'll do it again, but record it on simmer.

I made a roasted chicken risotto for dinner tonight, and in order to keep the pot of chicken stock simmering at more than a gentle simmer, I actually had to turn the burner up slightly from my lowest simmer setting. I can say that the simmer is too low for risotto, but that's neither her nor there.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Snowyct - I think amcook, who is also a pro, has stated that he's OK with the simmering capability.

If this is a pro/non-pro difference, I don't really get how this could work -- just that the pros tweak their instruments all the time, are comfortable doing so and can somehow get the machines to put out less heat? Are the settings that finicky; do they go out really quickly?

Because there are multiple reports of things like stews boiling dry and the like - that sort of thing is what is not supposed to happen, as I understand it, on a simmer. I thought you were supposed to be able to cook something slowly for a long time letting flavors mingle, by not permitting the liquid to evaporate - that's what a simmer is I thought, by definition.

As has been noted, Capital does monitor these threads. It should be of concern to them to hear of so many who will be turned away from a future purchase by these reports. It should be of concern to them to hear of so many current customers who are not in some "deep" way, happy with their machines -- we are not crowing its praises to our neighbors, their next potential customers. I never did seriously consider a BS. I'm now almost ready to start beginning to wish that I had.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

jscout,

The jambalaya boiling over was not a big problem except for the mess (as the pot was almost full). I had a crust at the bottom of the pot.

Billy


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

BTW, I'm not a pro, in that I'm not a chef and I don't do it for a living. But I have cooked in a restaurant. I'm also ServSafe certified so I have cooked on commercial ranges in soup kitchens, church kitchens and function facilities. But honestly, that doesn't make me a better cook than anyone else.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! -2

jscout,

We do know you cook good food well... that's good enough for us!

Billy


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

And Yes TV Guy, It would be better than BS, (You Too Stooxie), is not 5 simmer burners better than one or maybe 2

If it works, sure! Seems, though, that is the question at hand from real CC owners.

I'm going to stick with my theory that the primary problem here is the ignition system. If the CC ignitors were different (ala the mysteriously crack-prone Bluestar ignitors that work flawlessly) then the burners could be adjusted down much more consistently without encountering the false re-ignition syndrome. I think they effed them up somehow. Honestly, what DOES that metal disk do?

-Stooxie


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Stooxie -- I hadn't read your theory before. I'm thinking it sounds plausible (not that I have any expertise whatsoever in this). I guess I'm liking this because though I haven't double-checked this, I really think my machine's burners are set just about as low as they can go without clicking inordinately. And yet I think my machine's burners are not as low as jscout's. Demonstrably this must be true as he gets simmers that I can't. So ... I'm wanting to find some other solution. Variability in the fidelity - or whatever it's called - of the ignitors could account for this discrepancy, I think?


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

stooxie,

I don't know whether or not the ignition system is a problem, but let's go down that path.

The ignitors are heated by that single burner port near them, so manufacturing variability in the burners, incorrect alignment of the burners with the ignitor, or a clogged ignitor gas port could cause false re-ignition (dare I say premature re-ignition?)

Yours is an interesting theory and it could contribute.

I wonder if reaming out the gas ignitor with a larger drill bit would help?

Billy


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

The ignitors are heated by that single burner port near them, so manufacturing variability in the burners, incorrect alignment of the burners with the ignitor, or a clogged ignitor gas port could cause false re-ignition (dare I say premature re-ignition?)

That could very well help, could be worth a try and since the burner head comes off it can be replaced if that doesn't end up making things better.

I think another factor is the ignitors themselves. There are two big differences between the Bluestar ignitor and the CC. First, the Bluestar contact/hook seems to be more directly in the line of fire. Second, it is not clad in metal.

Why those may matter is because of how the ignition sensor works. With auto-reigniting stoves it doesn't matter where the dial is, the ignition system will sense the lack of flame and kick in. There is no point on the dial where the ignitor will work no matter what, as it does with a typical stove.

The sensor works by making use of the slight electrical charge generated by the natural gas combustion. The ignitor module is essentially looking for a closed circuit which is created by the free electrons. When absent, it assumes there is no flame. When present, it assumes there is.

My theory is that the round head ignitor on the CC may not be as into the fire as it needs to be when the gas flow is adjusted very low. To Billy G's point, slight variances in the cast iron will affect that.

Next in line, and more abstract, is that I wonder if the metal cladding and retention clip actually ground the charge a little bit and prevent the ignitor module from sensing it at very low flame levels.

I believe I read here that this ignitor is actually an existing design so let's assume that in some application it works properly. I think what is different on the CC is the metal casing and the positioning.

The Bluestar ignitor is held in place my a smaller piece of metal that is very far away from the flame. There is nothing but totally non-conductive ceramic close to the flame. Again, the electrode is directly in the line of fire even on the smallest burner.

It is also interesting that in my hunt for CC pictures I have found several with the ignitor on the outside of the burner head:

Seems like there has been quite a bit of tweaking in this department.

-Stooxie


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

The picture of the above 4 burners was taken from the very first range made, it was decided to put the ingnitors in the center of the burner the same as the bluestar for more protection, but mainly it allowed us (me and the Visiting Engineer to make 23k btu into a 8k btu by using only the inner circle of holes.

From what I understand its all about gas flow and proximity to the first hole that makes all the difference, nothing to do with the actual style, shape of the ignitor unit. By lowering the gas flow but keeping the same amount of holes less gas goes to the first hole which can result in clicking, I maintain should capital reduce the holes and change the orifice the whole problem disappears as it did with the unit I produced for them that had a 8k btu burner, because of the amount of gas that comes from the first hole.

When the engineer came to the store and we changed the burner from 23k to 8k, all he did was to fill the to outer two circles with muffler gunk and change the orifice to a #55 if i recall, then we had a working 8k burner, simple as that.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

So Trevor... it seems you've become an expert on appliance design and certainly on customer desire and market opportunity. Now you just need a manufacturing facility and some engineers to go into the business.

Just kidding - kind of. I know you have no desire to do that but I can sense your frustration during the past few years about slow or unresponsive manufacturers who (although they may be very good to you) may not be in tune with customer and marketplace demands, or with the fast turnaround and product development cycles that occur in, say, the smartphone market.

Let's face it, the appliance market was very sleepy until the past 10 years when product innovation was pushed by companies like Miele, Samsung, LG, and Electrolux, and smaller companies like Capital.

Billy


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Well, here's something that I do with mine that others probably haven't thought of. When I seat my burner caps, not only do I pinch the cap and the ignitor together, but I also give the top of the ignitor a little nudge down, pushing the whole assembly ever so slightly. The difference is just millimeters, but it allows the simmer to go even lower, since the top of the ignitor is ever so closer to the port. This has allowed me to get my simmer as low as it can go.

Another tip is to be patient, assuming that the burner has been adjusted as low as it will go. Mine is low enough that a sudden turn to simmer will cause the "whack-a-mole dancing ports" and clicking, despite having adjusted it to the point that it's not supposed to click. That's because the gas flow hasn't leveled off yet. If mine does that, then I back off the simmer and let it sit just above simmer until the flow levels off and the flames stop dancing. Believe it or not, that pause is enough that I can then move it to simmer and everything is happy.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

jscout! I can't believe what tricky, sophisticated work-arounds you have developed and yet ... you say you have 'no problems'! You've just spent an inordinate, highly successful amount of time, skill and effort at tweaking your machine, *way* above and beyond the screw driver set. That's not to say what you're doing is difficult, it's just that hardly anyone would know or have the courage to do this, certainly not your random Jane 6-probiotic-pack. (Me, that is).

So with all due respect -- and a lot of it at that -- you are definitely an end member in your experience, approach and attack. So when the company wants to balance out the waterfall of complaints with your "oh, but I'm not having any troubles... - see my video, even!", well - that's just not fair or representative.

That said, I am so appreciative of learning what you are doing, seeing it, learning about a stove. I'm going to go fiddle with the ignitors right now as it seems it might be helpful not to mention possible. Truthfully, I've tried as hard as possible to avoid touching them altogether: they look so delicate! They're ceramic! eek! Maybe I'll go look for a stilleto heel to use to whack it (none here that I know of, however).

BTW, I should try to soften this a little by noting that I don't think you're trying to claim the ones with troubles are wrong or over-reaching or anything. You're incredibly respectful and helpful. It's just that - perhaps in my defensiveness - I do wonder what's wrong with me when, for example, others - say you - are just not having any problem, just like Trevor says....

++++
Welll will you look at that ... (I should take a picture so you can look at that. Just now I scooted the metal ring very close to the ignitor on one burner and far back on the other and pushed down on the close one as well, turned them both on and there is a noticeable difference in the size of the flame. OK, this is just n=1 but it's interesting how touchy these things are. And if these minute differences can actually translate the the difference between simmering-the-way-the-masses-want-to and not being able to ... well... pretty interesting, eh?


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

It's interesting that you call them work-arounds, because for me, it was just making sure I lined everything up properly, within the tolerances of the machine. The burner heads come off for easy cleaning. I've washed my grates and burner heads in the DW twice in the last three months. Each time it was just a matter of replacing everything, lining things up and checking the fit. Now granted, I do have some knowledge of the physics of the stuff. And frankly, I just took this all for granted. This is probably the kind of thing that Capital should put in their user guide, either as a troubleshooting or tips and tricks section. I think we can all agree that their documentation is a bit lacking, to be kind.


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reposting...

It's always hard to know what you don't know and conversely, it can be hard to appreciate the rarity of what you do know. Or how intimidating it is to others. I've been really leery of touching these parts at all - terrified of it, frankly. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

So speaking of physics then ... could the ventilation have an impact on reignition? I'm wondering whether there are a myriad of little factors that individually are comparatively small but together add up to this difference between soup that "simmers" dry and looks so invitingly stew-y like yours.... [more reasons why non-real-life test conditions may not get Capital to the right answer].

It might be hard to test that between users informally because we know starting conditions matter there. For example, I foolishly left the plastic protective coating on my hood's baffles at first and the difference in function -- and sound -- is huge. That's before getting into anything interesting like configuration of the system, etc. not to mention its "hardware" (specifics of the hoods' guts).


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

aliris19 your comment below to jscout....

""""""So with all due respect -- and a lot of it at that -- you are definitely an end member in your experience, approach and attack. So when the company wants to balance out the waterfall of complaints with your "oh, but I'm not having any troubles... - see my video, even!", well - that's just not fair or representative.""""""

Fair and balanced comment back.

we should also put this issue in perspective. With over 2000 units in the field I don't know what the actual % is of simmers that wont simmer, but I think its low which does not help my case or yours.

If we say we had 50 Garden Webbers with this issue (which we don't have that many)

Another 50 who read but don't post

Plus 100 people who have complained to the factory and not the GW

That's 10% of customers unhappy with the simmers ability, which means 90% are happy or don't care or have work arounds.

It would be interesting to see how many people actually have a problem out of the 2 years of sales.

This post DOES NOT MEAN I don't care or Capital does not care, i guess it means are the 20 ish people who have voiced dissatisfaction a representative or a minority????

I don't know the answer,

As I have stated before I don't have any of my customer who have reported a simmer issue to me, who now has an ongoing issue, ALL were resolved.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Ok, so that is helpful, Trevor. We have been trying to --or at least I have been - get a handle on denominator and numerator as well -- that is, how-many-with-a-problem, out-of-how-many??

For me personally, since Capital has already been *out* here to "fix" the problem, and since I read of so many such complaints, it feels like a big open unresolved box. But I've heard you (and in the deafening silence, Kalsi) all along saying no, there are other, small contributing problems.

So great! If in fact the simmer capability can be made to function for all of these massive burners, then everyone comes out ahead. Maybe there are a bunch of little things that need to align to make it all work.

Frankly, it's annoying to have to go through this much headache and effort and, well, self-doubt for a range of so much cost, but if it's got to be it's got to be. I still haven't acquired the specific little screwdriver I need to reach the internal gas set. But as I know I have the option of calling out Capital for that adjustment, and I choose to believe that's silly, I should just do it myself, the delay and annoyance are on me.

As mentioned, I haven't been monitoring these postings at all and I know you have been, closely. Do you think then that 20 is really a good number of how many are have explicitly expressed dissatisfaction here? I actually can quickly set up a surveymonkey to try to get a better handle on number of folks with this problem if you think it's worthwhile? Because, btw, I believe the rule-of-thumb in CS circles is that for every 1 person who complains, 10 more suffer the same complaint silently. If, conservatively, there were 50 GW's with this issue, that would imply there were 500 GW's with the issue in reality. Same goes for direct-factory complaints. That gets to a guesstimate closer to 50%. There are a lot of presumptions going on...

BTW, your estimate of 10% unhappy with the simmer is in itself a little shocking. I believe 5% would be a much more commonly accepted "failure rate" for a mass-produced item. For a boutique, handmade, expensive high-end item, I should think that acceptable rate should be much lower. Course, you are saying as much, I know, in your lonely vigil regarding this these two years.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman) [photo heavy - ignore if on d

I would be happy if the service department of Capital had nothing to do, but that's not the real world.

Having said that if Sub Zero has a 25% service call out rate then 10% is looking good, 5% and below would be better.

To many presumptions to take a pole but what do I know.

If I might suggest the following to you.

What every you are having a problem with simmering, make a pot of it and using a iphone of some description film it and post it for all to see, then call for service and have the pot on the stove showing the guy the issue on his arrival, let him fix it (if he can) and see the difference (hopefully)

I will of course assist you in getting service fast if needed, if they can fix yours they can fix everyone's. But until you have them back again you or we will never know.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

There are people who have problems who never think of contacting anyone.

My neighbor bought a CC. She seems to burn things a lot. I told her how to make a particular dish and stressed that she should put the burner as low as it would go, and watch the pan carefully. She did both. It burned anyway.

Her perception, when we spoke about it, was that she wasn't used to such a powerful range. That's probably pretty common. Very few people have experience with this many BTUs. So, like her, they assume it's their own fault. So they never complain and nobody knows about them, but they're highly unlikely to buy a similar range or cooktop again.


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time for survey?

I'd be happy if they'd just send out the right screwdriver! There's a hardware store on the corner but I never seem to find the time to get to it. If I just shut the lid on this stupid computer, however...

In the meantime I'll do what I can, but I have a phobia against pointless service calls. There is no way I will hold the cooking for Capital to show up! But I can try to photograph it - only what's to see? I've never really shot video, but I guess no one's going to believe this unless they hear that lid chattering away atop the "simmer".

Is it just a numbers-thing then? That is, is there some certain percentage of disgruntled customers that would result in Capital waking up? Because if so, perhaps it is worthwhile to set up a surveymonkey?


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Alairis - I, for one, would be very grateful to you if you would take the time to do all of the above -- try the screwdriver adjustment, in the chance that it will solve the problem; post a video of your simmer; and set up the surveymonkey. I know that's asking for a lot of your time, but it's almost impossible to tell how pervasive the simmer problem is and whether it's fixable with some tinkering by CC owners on their individual units or it's going to take a fix by Capital. I don't know much about Capital other than what I've read here, but I would suspect that an across-the-board fix won't come until there's solid evidence of a widespread problem, or Capital starts losing market share to BS -- which unfortunately will take some time to materialize -- during which the simmer issues will continue unabated. So if you can find the time, it would be great.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Capital will realize the problem if it exist in reasonable numbers if people call for service. Anyone with a problem no matter what manufacturer should call for service. That's generally how manufactures realize they have a problem with a product.... Be it cars, computers DVD players everything, if people don't call they don't know whats wrong.

In this case once the factory knows they have a simmer issue brought to them by multiple customers / calls they have 3 options.

1) Ignore it
2) Make a correction to the production line to set burners correctly.
3) Change the burner completely to a dedicated simmer burner


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Dont forget #4, which occurs after #2 & #3:

FIx existing models in the field with either result of #2 or offer option to change to burner option under #3. :)


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! photo heavy - ignore if on d

Let's be realistic, Right now Capital Cooking Company thinks the simmer is working fine in most cases, now if Capital make changes due to public demand or bring out a new burner that will improve the ability to simmer on the CC, don't expect them to fix everyone's for free, that will not happen.

If and its a BIG if right now, a new burner comes out, I am 100% confident the burner would be retrofit-able in the field to all ranges and range tops for those who request the new burner, and yes maybe pay for it, I don't know.

I do know one thing for sure I will not expect any my customers to pay for it, I will foot that bill.

That is my opinion, I do not speak for Capital Range Company. Clearly this is post is all hypothetical right now.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Snowy -- I just skimmed your message at first and got all tense thinking this was upsetting someone for the ongoing minutiae! Reading carefully, I see quite the opposite. For you, since you ask so incredibly nicely (this forum is filled with an awful lot of nice, articulate people), I will haul my butt from the mound of stuff I *should* be doing, search for the proper tool in the back and I may still have time to nip over to the hardware if it's not to be found. Thanks for the encouragement.

But I sure wish zartemis would fix dinner for my kids while I'm on this errand! ;)


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

At least it's not a Viking...

Sorry for SugarCookies; hopefully they will fix it on Monday.

Here is a link that might be useful: Brand-new Viking lemon


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

>I do know one thing for sure I will not expect any my customers to pay for it, I will foot that bill.

That's why despite your bias and your affiliation for the number two range I love you! :)

Honestly tho you are a good guy and a smart business man. I would absolutely 100% do the exact same thing you offered, and I think capital should too but I know most companies would not. The cost to fix 2000 ranges is not really a whack of money to a company capitals size. In fact it wouldn't be 2000 ranges... Probably more like 1000 as some people would not know or care about the fix. To me that is being penny wise and pound foolish.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

I've been puking my guts out for 19 hours so unable to get back to post.

When I posted the those pics the other night, I should have also posted ones of the burner I DID adjust down. Clearly, yes, the front center burner on low had a high flame as can be seen.

Here is the burner I adjusted myself. IT STILL DOES NOT DO ANY SORT OF SIMMER. IT BOILS EVERYTHING!!!

(Back center burner as low as I could turn it down before it clicked.)

Back center simmer adjusted without pan

Really, that's irrelevant because the minute I set a pan on it the clicking begins. Once I turn it up with the pan on to just barely avoid the clicking, the burner looks like this.

Back center simmer adjusted with pan at lowest setting

I agree that there are many owners out there who just never think to complain. Or who don't spend every waking moment on these forums to read that they are not alone and others have the same issues.

Maybe it's my sickness fogged head, but I don't think I clearly understand the pinching/ignitor/pushing down/whatever thing that Jscout mentioned. Is there any way someone could post a pic of that so maybe I could try it??

I'm too tired, achy, nauseous, and crabby to write anything eloquent. I will call the factory on Monday. I'm just sooo afraid to hear them say there's nothing wrong...blah...blah...blah.... I don't have it in me right now to put up another fight to get what I want out of this house reno.

It looks so pretty. I just want it to work right.

CC rangetop in situ during simmer


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Hi everyone

I was going to post on the other thread but couldn't wait to read this one. I tried to simmer chili this evening and the simmer was still too high. I would really like to try jscout's technique but as I mentioned before I am a visual learner and can't seem to follow the instructions. Could I impose on someone to video how to pinch the cap and the ignitor and push down? What does it mean to line everything up within the tolerances of the machine. Perhaps we can add it to the screwdriver video. Like Aliris I really don't want to damage the ignitor.

Or perhaps Capital could send out an e-mail to its distributors and service companies and explain how to do it and they can then teach us when they come for service.

Trevor, I know that it is all hypothetical right now but good will is a very powerful tool. I would be very perturbed if Capital developed a retrofit and did not absorb the cost for any individual who made a claim. Just as I would be forever loyal to you if I was your customer and you assumed responsibility for the retrofit. I understand that the profit margin may be very tight but I would hazard to guess that the individuals posting on this Web Site are generally the ones who people looking to purchase items go to for guidance and opinion. If I thought that Capital did not provide the service that I have come to expect at this price point then I would definitely not recommend them whether or not they have the best product on this Earth. For me both quality and customer service is why I am prepared to invest in any high end option.

I don't think the high simmer population is trying to be unreasonable. And we will definitely find a way to deal with the intensity of the heat because really we have no other choice. But Capital should step up. They have you as their champion and that means they should show a certain level of respect for your standards of customer service.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Hi Breezy

I was typing when you were posting. I hope you feel better soon.

Warm regards M


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

I say again instead of trying to fix the range yourself call capital and get service........

This is really blunt and im sorry for that but.... doing nothing but posting will not fix your simmer issue.

Call Capital Ask for Bob, John or Surjit and explain your need for service, they will provide it and maybe your range could be fixed....

Lannie59.... My apologies for such a reply to an email from a customer.....maybe the iphone reply had something to do with the brief reply (hopefully)


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Speaking of simmering, this thread is certainly simmering away!

The cost to fix 2000 ranges is not really a whack of money to a company capitals size. In fact it wouldn't be 2000 ranges... Probably more like 1000 as some people would not know or care about the fix. To me that is being penny wise and pound foolish.

I tried to do a little research into how big a company Capital is but all I get is 404 errors from their "About" and "Sitemap" links off the front page.

Figure to replace an average of 5 burner heads (and possibly ignitors) on 1000 ranges costs $250 in parts, labor and shipping. Well, that's $250,000. According to this thread the CEO of Capital is pretty far away from pulling out his checkbook and writing $250,000 to fix a problem he doesn't think exists. That's a lot of money and, as was noted earlier, a lot of swallowed pride.

I dunno guys, doesn't anyone else find this odd? Is the CEO's email address really "surjitkalsi@msn.com"? MSN, as in, the Microsoft network? He gives out his cell phone number? He treats his customers like they don't understand his genius? Should the CEO of a company really be answering basic sales emails? That is not the role of a CEO and any business person on the planet should agree with that.

I'll certainly grant that Trevor is doing a huge amount of work at being the liaison but at some point you have to look at the source company, no? I don't care what range/company people select, I'm just a bit baffled by all of this.

-Stooxie


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

>Figure to replace an average of 5 burner heads (and possibly ignitors) on 1000 ranges costs $250 in parts, labor and shipping. Well, that's $250,000. According to this thread the CEO of Capital is pretty far away from pulling out his checkbook and writing $250,000 to fix a problem he doesn't think exists. That's a lot of money and, as was noted earlier, a lot of swallowed pride.

First off I think it would be way less than $250 per range as the likely solution would be a simmer burner wich would be a small cast iron burner cap and an orifice. Secondly, how can trevor afford to swallow the cost? Sure he will have to fix less ranges but he also sells way less, plus it will cost trevor more per range than capital plus I would assume trevors fix request rate would be higher than capital because trevors customers are probably a lot more in tune with what is going on in here and other internet forum than your "average" customer would be. thirdly why is it bs can send out a new oven door for free to anyone who asks? They sent one to me in canada by ups. Ups charges about $90 just to bring an item across the border (I really dislike this practise as they are the only ones to do this), plus the cost to ship the very large heavy box and the cost to make a 30" stainless steel door surely would cost more than a couple of small drops of cheap cast iron. I'm thinking the cost to do this must be bare minimum of $400 a whack. I sent an email asking for a replacement door and about 20 minutes after I sent my email I had a very ploite message from mandy at bs saying it is on the way with no cost to me. And I havnt even had a problem with my door in the 4 yrs I have owned it.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

>Culinarian is the best Range for simmering. If you have any question please
speak to our Bob Waymire at 562.903.1168

Ya the entire internet is full of conspiracists or idiots that can't simmer.

Its a typical arrogant kalsi response, but at least not really rude this time. Probably had no time.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Trevor - thanks for carrying water for these folks. I know they're partners of a sort, but it is nevertheless good of you to take responsibility for business practices you don't support.

Breezy -- I'm completely with you. The slightest hint of a suggestion that it's all my fault kinda quells my capacity to complain _for myself_. When there is a common experience with others at stake, that's a different matter. It changes the likelihood of this just being *my* problem, something I'm doing wrong, and provides some distance for the strength to assert validity.

Like Marcolo's neighbor, it's easier to adjust, imagine it's my fault or attributable to absence of skill (the "self doubt" I noted earlier). Ironically, Marcolo happens to be one of the sternest out there in e-yelling at women on this forum to stand up for themselves in the face of a recalcitrant contractor or purveyor. But the fact is, it's easier to advocate for others than for yourself; calling The Company is an act of assurance and courage that is a stretch for many. Even GW'ers. As the plaintif if not "victim" (I know we're not talking Syria here, but instead the privileged realm of high-end appliance problems -- this term is firmly ensconced in italics), I confess I just don't want to have the conversation in which I am blamed for their machine's failure to live up to its hype. I know I'm culpable for buying into the hype.

Trevor, you are 100% right that it's impossible to know about a problem until it is noted; calling the company is the sanctioned way to do this.

But in the face of a long stream of unacknowledged complaints here, and one unsatisfying* service call, I'm really, really reluctant. [*let me clarify: the service call was undertaken in a very friendly, helpful, non-judgmental way. But while the 6 clicking burners were all adjusted so that they no longer click, they are too hot to simmer IMO yet; and without getting too involved into the rest of the service call, there were 2 other issues neither of which was really resolved. But they did spend a huge amount of time thinking about my complaints and they were immensely helpful in getting my machine installed correctly, a task which the original installers were unequal to and for which I am grateful].

Stooxie & Tyguy -- I have been to the Capital factory in person (I live near it) and met the owner in passing. Would it be helpful for me to say a little about this? I think I may have already in a thread long ago. But I must say the terse, cranky claim doesn't seem suspicious or even too out-of-line to me. It's a small-ish operation with the CEO very involved, right there and obviously reading all of this. He doesn't acknowledge there is a problem at all, obviously, and I can readily imagine all of this and these ongoing questions are really irksome to him. Hence... I agree it's an unwise stance and kind of insulting, but not really suspicious. Maybe because I can picture the whole operation...

Finally -- it's been suggested that some of the problem with crediting that there is a problem is its prevalence. Perhaps this is really only a problem for a small number of us. It seems that if this is not the case, that the problem is in fact widespread, that it might be treated differently.

I haven't the time to search and tabulate simmer-comments on GW. But I can quickly setup a surveymonkey. Click here to answer 6 brief questions about your experience with the simmer capability of the Culinarian. Let me know offlist, asap if you think any of the questions is problematic or insufficient. Please do not answer if you have no personal experience with the CC.

I will post this in a separate thread in a day or two after there has been time to test whether the questions are useful and sufficient.

Thanks.

Mangiamo - you are one beautiful writer!!!! :)

and Breezy -- I hope you feel very much better very quickly.


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>But I must say the terse, cranky claim doesn't seem suspicious or even too out-of-line to me. It's a small-ish operation with the CEO very involved, right there and obviously reading all of this. He doesn't acknowledge there is a problem at all, obviously, and I can readily imagine all of this and these ongoing questions are really irksome to him. Hence... I agree it's an unwise stance and kind of insulting, but not really suspicious. Maybe because I can picture the whole operation...

Oh he knows alright. It is in character for him to scold anyone who questions his products. Unless of course you are touring his factory, or a camera is in front of him, then he is just a meek smiley man. It really baffles me how he can have such a fan base on here. To claim the cc has the "best" simmer is akin to bluestar saying they have the worlds greatest door hinges.

Oh and aliris19, it is very coincidental that you compliment mangiamo's writing skills. Why is it coincidental? Because just as I was reading that very post of yours above I thought "this aliris person is an incredible writer" and I was going to post that compliment. I'm thinking some sort of professional writing background, or at least a major or minor in english.


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aliris19, that did help, thank you. One question about semantics: you say that you don't find Kalsi's remarks "suspicious" but I wonder if the word you really mean to use is "consistent," or out of character. Seems his cranky, terse responses are quite consistent with the type of operation and person you describe.

Tyguy, you questioned the figure of $250 per range and then went on to support the claim very nicely. :-)

You're right, the material cost of the replacement parts may be $10 or $300. What costs more is the labor (always the biggest cost), opportunity cost, shipping, and undoubtedly many who received the retro kit would want some kind of professional installation.

Plus there can be more-- If CC says there is a simmer problem then they may become liable to fix ALL the burners as opposed to just providing for a single simmer burner. I am not a lawyer so I am only wondering, but if the marketing claims that EACH burner is capable of "true simmer" then EACH burner must be replaced to make the claim true. If the marketing only spoke of the "range" being capable of true simmer than replacing just one burner would make the claim true.

I ONLY say this because I believe this is what makes it a very tough business decision for Capital. If you admit there is a gap between marketing claims and the product it can cost you a WHOLE ton of money to fix.

So it really does become a battle of one person's definition of simmer versus another. Does any of this cause a rift between Eurostoves and Capital? You have one correctly saying "Yep, this is a problem" and the CEO saying "No, it's not"?

-Stooxie


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Just to put things in perspective, The problem is the low simmer not all the burners as stooxi suggests, Some people are complaining about not been able to simmer low enough, all the CC would benefit from is one dedicated simmer burner same as BS. We don't even know how many people or what percentage of people are having these problem, or indeed if they can be fixed with service calls one thing for sure the simmer burner can not be fixed by posting on the GW.
Let me make it clear, if one is avaialble I will send all my customers who ask 1 x simmer burner only, to be fitted by themselves, I will not be replacing all burner, no need to do that, nor will I be paying for it to be installed, nor am I paying for damages / compensation as one person has already asked me for, this particular person wants a new burner, wants it to be installed AND $500 compensation. I will operate the same as the Bluestar door issue "if you ask I will send you a new simmer burner If one exists" .....Again very hypothetical.....

Stooxi ....IF Capital decided to change everyone's burner who asked, I would suspect they too would only change one burner most probably back left to a 8k btu, cost for burner head, flute and orifice maybe $10 top side, shipping with DIY instructions $5 worst case, lets not start scar mongering about capitals ability to pay for a fix, question the willingness but not ability to pay with bloated numbers.

I doubt that Capital will admit there is a problem with the simmer burner, just like Bluestar has never admitted that they have a problem with the oven doors or the modules, they simply fix at no charge doors for people who come forward. Bluestar does not pay for install of the new doors I doubt Capital would pay for install of a new burner, most people have already taken off the burner to to clean it so thats no problem, as for the orifice its a 3 min job max.

IF and it is still a big IF, a new burner would become available, it would be an improvement to the CC line, which would also be avaialble as a retro fit kit,

Example....

If Dell came out with a new faster processor does that mean that everyone with the old processor is entitled to a new one, of course not BUT they can get a new processor installed if they want a one. Bluestar came out with single point modules primarily due to so many failures of the multi point module, did everyone who had a multi point module get single point modules no it was seen as range improvement / development.

As for the legal issue of wording "True Simmer that Stooxi brings up I don't see that at all, as posted previously simmer is from 135 degrees to 200 + degrees the CC is within these numbers with ease, so the range technically does simmer according to general numbers. Does anyone know what a "True Simmer" is ??? is it a number? or a phrase used by marketing people?.

Surjit is involved in all aspects of the business, it seems strange to me that not that long ago people were complimenting him on actual participating on the GW because he was the CEO of the company, until he of course he upset people then he was attacked, rightly or wrongly.

In these recent threads we have people asking why he has not posted, and now Stooxi is critical about him answering basic sales emails. In general I would say a CEO who responds to customers directly is to be congratulated, as to how a CEO replies that's a different matter, in this case it was with all due respect to Surjit a 78 year old man on an iPhone, while the content of the reply may not have been what the potential customer was looking for his email was returned by the owner of the company and guided to someone who could help.

This is business sure Capital and my company disagree but that does not mean

Lets just try to stick to the issue at hand, that being helping people with a problem, instead of trying to use this thread to discredit the entire company.


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sorry posted by mistake..finish what i was saying

This is business sure Capital and my company disagree but that does not mean anything more than that, BS and I disagreed but we are still talking ....When you own or run a business you learn to separate personal and business issues.


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I guess Stooxie, TVguy and a few others here forgot the Disappearance by "Everybody" connected with Bluestar when they were having problems, Ignitors, Oven Doors that wouldn't open---etc etc.

I recall quite a few "Panic Posts" where folks with these problems had "NO Where" to go. Calls and emails were NOT answered, and it fact it was Trevor (AGAIN), sending out parts, answering posts etc etc.

Yes BS has seemed to have gotten it together today but whose to say how long it will it last, especially if you folks mangage to "Topple" or a least cause their "Only" Open burner competitor to be less "Competitive".

Most of you know why BS had to get it together, "Capital was starting to clobber them", and you you can thank Capital and Competiton for the "Apparently New Environment at BS"!

Mr Kalsi did post the number of his Engineer/Employee who apparently is "The Capital Simmer Expert". Why did those of you with problems not call this guy rather than slobber in your Beers and bad mouth Mr Kalsi? At the very least you could have got your "Inputs" to where it mattered, You could have "personally told him" about your simmer experiences. Did BS ever make such an offer to talk about Door Design, Ignitor and Ignitor Design etc etc.

I don't even recall BS even making one of their "Janitors" available to us here in GW????The BS group "Ran and hid" when the "heat was in the kitchen"!!!

I do hope Capital does come out with a simmer burner, but even better a "fully multi-purpose burner" that satisfies everybody.

Summation, Knock off the "Cheap Shots" at Mr Kalsi, am I the only one that was taught "Respect for Elders"?
Follow Trevor's advice, You have a Capital problem, call Capital, at least they are not hiding like their earlier competition did , a few years back!!!

Gary


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Good morning everyone

Trevor, I know that you would like to see another service call but my experience was such that the technician, who was very polite and honestly wished he could help, suggested that, in my case anyway, this is as good as it gets. The only other suggestion he had was to take apart the range to recalibrate the knobs and I don't really want this because it would only be a cosmetic fix and not affect the intensity of the simmer. I will try jscout's technique on my own.

However, I am willing to call Capital directly to inform them of the issues I am having with simmer if this would help to make our case. I am not sure if the call backs through the service company are reported back to them.

I think that if Capital was prepared to supply one simmer, and if I could purchase a second to meet my cooking needs, then I would be happy to incur all costs of installation.

MM


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mangiamo

If you want you can give me a call when you are trying a fix so I can try to assist you.


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Hello,

This is my first post. I joined GW this morning to express my disappointment with the issue discussed here, even if I'm not a CC owner.

We're building a new home this summer. In the next month or so, we'll be buying our cooking range and other appliances in order to plan for the kitchen design.

Even though the CC is not easy to find in the province of Quebec, it was pretty much a done deal. All I had left to do was to visit a store that is at least an hour and a half away to confirm my choice.

The "multi-purpose burners" where a big part in the decision process. Now this really puts a lot of doubts in my mind. If the final solution is to have dedicated simmer burners for the CC, then I'll have to look back at other ranges I discarted based on having different burners arrangements.

All that to say that, if it can help the cause for those having this issue, future owners are reading with great interest to see the conclusion of this thread.


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>I guess Stooxie, TVguy and a few others here forgot the Disappearance by "Everybody" connected with Bluestar when they were having problems, Ignitors, Oven Doors that wouldn't open---etc etc.

Hmmm?? Is that what really think? Well speaking for myself, I am pretty sure you could dig up MULIPLE posts by me not only acknowledging bs's spotty past record, but also attributing at least partly capitals involvment in helping bs ultimately help themselves. You can say certain things about me but you can not claim that I do not recognise bs's issues, both past and present. It is beyond nauseating to lsiten to a small amount of the capital crowd to be on here not doing the same thing.

>Summation, Knock off the "Cheap Shots" at Mr Kalsi, am I the only one that was taught "Respect for Elders"?

Please explain to me why he has earned any respect? And I could probably name at least a 2 for 1 ratio of reassons not to respect him. As I said I don't get why he has such a fan club and can't see the true him. And for respecting elders, I don't do that automatically. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is my elder, should I respect him? Binladen if he was alive? Sorry respect is earned.

>The "multi-purpose burners" where a big part in the decision process. Now this really puts a lot of doubts in my mind. If the final solution is to have dedicated simmer burners for the CC, then I'll have to look back at other ranges I discarted based on having different burners arrangements.

You are not going to get a 23k btu burner that also simmers extra low without some sort of dual stack tech or some sort of idea like dodge had to twist the cap 90 degrees or something like that.


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I guess Stooxie, TVguy and a few others here forgot the Disappearance by "Everybody" connected with Bluestar when they were having problems, Ignitors, Oven Doors that wouldn't open---etc etc.

On the contrary, Dodge, we seem to be among the few who do remember our history. THAT is the whole point. I see history repeating itself here with amazing reliability.

When BS was having it's problems it was the same: some people were fine, others were not. Bluestar had to make the same business decisions. This is what I find so fascinating, the same stuff is happening with Capital yet people literally seem in denial. "How can this be possible?!"

And Trevor, I did not suggest that ALL burners are affected but simply said that if Capital were to acknowledge a problem the scope of the fix may not be entirely up to them. I have been pretty careful not to claim that there IS something wrong beyond my own theory on it, which you completely validated for us anyway.

The Dell example is not the same because a company is always welcome to introduce new features. What they cannot do is advertise X in a product and then tell you, well, to get X you really need to buy this new one. NOT saying Capital is doing that, simply that the example doesn't hold.

We need the "no spin zone" here! :-)

-Stooxie


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I will ask this questions again out of interest not been argumentative ... What is a "true simmer"? A number or a function. I for one do not know the answer.


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True simmer is like pornography - you can't define it but you know it when you see it :-)


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tvguy,

I have met Mr. Kalsi and I respect him. Just because someone sends a short curt email WITH A CONTACT PERSON AND PHONE NUMBER doesn't mean he deserves to be called names. My gosh, he's the CEO of Capital and he answered an email over the weekend. That should tell you he's in touch with the situation.

It will take time to see what he does.

So far Capital has been very responsive to a number of customer wishes and demands. I trust they will continue to be responsive.

Billy


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Stooxie: aliris19, that did help, thank you. One question about semantics: you say that you don't find Kalsi's remarks "suspicious" but I wonder if the word you really mean to use is "consistent," or out of character. Seems his cranky, terse responses are quite consistent with the type of operation and person you describe."

Thanks for highlighting this flailing about of mine. I was trying to understand what you were implying in your post about Mr Kalsi. I actually, didn't really understand what the problem was, even with the offending email that resulted in even Trevor apologizing.

Here's what you said: "I dunno guys, doesn't anyone else find this odd? Is the CEO's email address really "surjitkalsi@msn.com"? MSN, as in, the Microsoft network? He gives out his cell phone number? He treats his customers like they don't understand his genius? Should the CEO of a company really be answering basic sales emails? That is not the role of a CEO and any business person on the planet should agree with that. " and the thing is, I don't really find it "odd", given what I've seen and the little I know of him and his company. Moreover, Trevor's point about the 78 year old-iphone intersection is also a point well taken. I can't get my 80yo mother to even speak into a cell phone, much less *type* something into it -- absolutely no way. So that alone could easily account for the less-than-hospitable response.

Anyway, I think the bigger point of history repeating itself and basically, a predictable cycle of business operations for a new, high-end product, is of most interest.

It seems perfectly understandable to me that were a company to admit to and mitigate post facto some design problem, this would be hugely, hugely momentous for the company; I imagine this is potentially bankrupting territory. I'm not saying it is but I can see that this would be the specter in the room; this is serious business.

Consequently it would be important to have some sense of whether the perceived problem (a) really is a problem or is easily remedied instead (either by perception or small physical twiddlings) and (b) how wide-spread the perceived problem actually is.


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"Posted by trevorlawson (My Page) on Sun, Mar 4, 12 at 13:06

I will ask this questions again out of interest not been argumentative ... What is a "true simmer"? A number or a function. I for one do not know the answer."

Trevor here is my simple answer: It is not based on temperature, size or type of cooking vessel, quantity or type of food product(s) being cooked. It is the ability to turn down the flame under anything being cooked to BELOW where ANY bubbles form. IF even a small amount of bubbling is desired you should have to turn the burner UP from its minimum setting. Using MY definition a CC will not simmer � using some "Book" definitions it will simmer.

I love my CC and would buy one again. While I did not purchase my CC for its "Simmer" capability I did believe both Capitals and Eurostoves advertising claims that a CC had the ability of a low temperature simmer. The Eurostoves website http://www.eurostoves.com/ still says a CC will simmer at 138F and the Capital website, 36" CC Features http://www.capital-cooking.com/product/382#features says a CC has a True Simmer of 145F. Will all due respect to you and Mr. Kalsi - BS, and I don�t mean Blue Star. I don�t believe a CC with its current burner, ignition and orifice design could ever achieve either of these temperatures � if it will please prove it to me and show me how to do it. I believe Capital will have to redesign the current burner, ignition and orifice set or design a completely different, smaller burner to achieve "True Simmer" or the temperatures advertised.

I don�t mean to sound harsh nor do I have any ill will toward Trevor or Mr. Kalsi - I just think we are making a big deal out of something which has such simple solution.


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@billy_g said "I bought two of the Flame Tamers (first link) and two of the SimmerMats (third link) and they don't work"

Apologies, by the time I posted, I had forgotten your posting. I didn't expect any kind of device that is smaller than the pot to work; I just figured that a 6" pot on an 8" plate would likely be OK.


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Billy: it wasn't just because of this one short email. It would be really silly of me to say negative things based on ONLY that email. And I agree that it is cool that he leaves a contact name and number, however there are several other posts I have encountered on the internet where kalsi was quite rude and or arrogant to his customers. There is also a whole slew of other negative points about the man and his business ethics I oppose. These are only my opinions and if you or others don't share them that is totally cool. I'm just not sure how he got such cult status on here to the point that a person must sensor their opinions when if someone from viking or wolf or where ever had ever said the same things my bet is there would be no shortage of negative criticisms.


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Mr Kalsi doesnt have "Cult Status".

Folks that actually visited the Captial factory reported that he was a "Gracious Host", (Paraphrasing).

My problem here, is we are not treating the two companies and especially the mgmt in a similar manner.

No body, at least that I can recall got "Personal" or took on Prize Fisher's Mgmt, (SP?)(Blue Star) during the problem times there. Folks were unhappy, at the company, sure, but I don't recalls "Potshots" at mgmt, alto of course they were not available as Capital has been.

Also recall that the problems there were much more serious, Food stuck in ovens, Ranges that were completely Inop, whilst here, the stove is fully operational except for different variations of the word "simmer" and for some here no simmer at all, so we read.

Thanks for the explanation of Elder Respect, tvguy, it was as I suspected, but I try never to "Assume" anything--you made it crystal clear!

And thanks for the honest point that Capital did give out a phone number of a Capital Employee who Mr Kalsi thought could give a better answer than He did, If He didnt care, why didn't he just say, "We have the Best Simmer Burner" and leave it there.

He opened the gate for those with problems to take them to the right place, and at last this ol *@`1 is smart enough to see that!!

Gary


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Alaris -- just chiming in here to thank you from the bottom of my heart for crystallizing this issue, setting up the survey quickly and advancing this discussion so well (I was mortified that you thought my last post showed impatience with the topic -- glad you re-read!).

This week, I've got to decide whether to order the CC (and roll the dice that Capital is going to figure out a fix for the simmer problem), or switch my order to a BS. How big a roll-of-the dice it might be depends on the results of the survey, so you can bet I'll be holding my breath and checking back frequently! I hope you get enough CC people responding that we're able to draw some decent conclusions.

In any event, if I go ahead and order the CC, at least I won't be blind-sided by the issue, and will know where to begin in getting it fixed. Again, thanks so much for taking the time and making the effort to try to get this issue resolved (as well as to everyone else contributing posts with suggestions on how to get that simmer to behave).


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My problem here, is we are not treating the two companies and especially the mgmt in a similar manner.

Correct! One company's CEO gets major kudos for being able to use his iPhone(!) while another company, who made their mistakes, licked their wounds and has a totally solid product is still treated like the outcast.

Good observation, Dodge!

Seriously, you don't recall the vitriol and contempt people had for Bluestar when it was in the spotlight? I just did a search and found them within two seconds.

-Stooxie


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As I said, stooxie, they were mad at the company.

None bothered to look up and post the names of the CEO and other "Dignitaries" of BS so they could take "Shots at them"or if they did, then you're right, I either missed those posts or I forgot about them!

Indeed when help arrived, Mandy as well as some other guy whose name I don't recall right now (Matt)?, Folks were soon to sing their praises, as they should and we had real names.

To me and I'm an old Senile guy by now,so what do I know?, but, "to me" it takes guts to stay in the kitchen when the fires are burning in the kitchen. Maybe I get that from being a Field Service Engineer for 40+ years, but I never ran from a fire, and indeed, especially in my youth, and even later, I always enjoyed the challenge, so hence my
admiration for anybody that does the same nowadays.

Gary


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Snowy -- thanks.

There have been numerous posts now -- I can't begin to remember where-all they are between different subject headings and two forums (appliances and kitchens) -- regarding the importance of this issue to folks in the process of making an imminent purchase.

If you are in this position yourself and are really on the fence about the purchase because of this simmering issue, you would all actually help those of us current owners by dropping a line to Capital and telling them. It has been pointed out that in fact active, imminent purchasers are the most influential group of all. You are the ones who are potentially taking your business elsewhere, and if there are enough of you, Capital is likely to get more proactive about this issue.

So. -- My first request is for you to contact Capital regarding your dilemma, for the rest of us if not for yourselves please.

My second request is that everyone help out in trying to get folks to respond to the survey. If you recall someone who complained about the simmer issue and can take a moment to hop back onto their thread or drop them an offlist email requesting their participation, this would be terrific.

So far 14 pple have responded. I can update people periodically or privately as to the numbers if you encounter a deadline for knowing them. Ideally, we'd make a push to get past complainers to participate but also a concerted effort to find non-complainers too. After the survey had been available for a while, I think the information should be passed to Capital and give them a chance to respond before posting the numbers.

But I understand there are people with building schedules that might want to know the information earlier. If you are one, please contact me offlist if/when your needs for the information are urgent. Especially should you happen to be in touch with Capital (for fairness' sake) already, I can probably make the interim numbers known to you if necessary. If anyone thinks this is unfair please contact me offlist with a correction or different suggestion.

Thanks for everyone's help soliciting participation - on either side of the simmering line - in the survey.


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Aliris--Survey monkey wont let me go back in to add my fuel type.

Will you be posting the survey here under a separate thread for greater visibility? The survey, as it is now, is buried in this thread.

Thanks again so much for taking the lead on this issue!


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Oops! I see that you started a new thread, Aliris. My mistake!

And thank you Aliris and Mangiamo for the good health wishes. I'm finally feeling almost up to snuff. So glad to have that business behind me! Now on to my simmering business tomorrow with Capital...


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Alaris -- That's an excellent idea, thanks. I was feeling bad that I couldn't contribute to the solution since I couldn't put in a call for service. So contacting Capital directly to let them know that they are going to lose sales unless they come up with a solution for past and prospective units is going to be at the top of my to do list today!


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What's a true simmer? Who cares. All I know is that when I cook rice it boils over and never did on my other stove with my same rice pot. In my mind, that's too hot. Something that was so easy is now made difficult. That is not the definition of a good tool.


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Aliris, thanks for the idea. Here is the email I sent to Capital this morning. I will report back anything I hear back from them. Is email an effective method of contacting them, do you think? Here is the text of what I wrote:

Dear Capital,

I am planning a full kitchen redo in the next few months. After a long search, I had narrowed down my choice to a 36" Capital Culianrian rangetop with Maestro double ovens. I got there by carefully researching different ranges, and by reading online forums such as Garden Web, where people discuss their real-world experiences. I was about to pull the trigger on the CC 36" six burner rangetop, when I started reading about simmering issues on the lowest setting. I visited a couple of showrooms to see for myself; at the first showroom (Yale Appliances in Boston), the lowest simmer temperature was clearly too high for a simmer. I then decided to visit Trevor at Eurostoves - his simmer goes low enough to produce acceptable results. I found this re-assuring. However, recently, a number of CC users have complained that they have been unable to reproduce the results the Trevor gets with his range, without inducing the ignitor clicking, even after numerous service calls and work arounds (simmer plates, hand-fashioned devices). Given the persistence of the problem, I am now concerned that I would be unable to achieve acceptable results with a CC, and am leaning toward choosing a BlueStar rangetop. While I am still on the fence, I am wondering if Capital is considering addressing this issue in some way, either by offering a dedicated simmer burner, or with a retrofit kit that would allow existing burners to be fixed. Whithout that type of asssurance, I don't think I would be willing to purchase the Capital, even knowing that Trevor stands behind the products he sells.

Please let me know if any changes or fixes might be available in the near future that could influence my decision and restore my confidence in Captial.

Respectfully,

Miriam Soibelman


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Tubeman ... have you called capital? i hope so


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Cancel order

I think I am going to chicken out and get a bluestar or wolf instead.


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Well, it was a busy weekend. So, in case anyone was waiting with bated breath on videos from me, sorry. I didn't get a chance to make a red sauce, but I did squeeze in some Irish oats...barely. Here are the three parts I did capture. Apologies for the 3rd part as it was not as useful as the first two. I almost didn't post any of the parts because of the 3rd part. I'm tempted to do it again. But here they are any way. I did post some details in the description of each video.

Part 1: http://youtu.be/klq0ImhbArA
Part 2: http://youtu.be/Qk1ga-o0YXs
Part 3: http://youtu.be/O4JCSyKs8rg

In regards to the screwdriver, I bought mine from HD, but not in the tools section, as one would expect. None of the ones there were either thin or long enough. I found mine in the electrical section. The brand is Klein Tools.

In regards to the ignitor and burner cap "tweaks." I don't consider them tweaks at all. The shutter adjustment and the simmer adjustment, yes. Those are tweaks where calibration is concerned. But lining up the "pilot" port with the ignitor and checking that the top of the ignitor and "pilot" port are as close together as possible is part of routine cleaning and maintenance. It's like remembering to leave the windows closed when it rains out. The alternative is a fixed burner head where the whole assembly has to be removed to clean it out. I've pointed this out before, but even Garland now has removable burner caps on all their commercial star burners. There's a reason for removable burner caps. It a better design. I'm not trying to diminish anyone's simmering issue, because if you're having an issue, it's an issue. But I do want to offer some other considerations.

Fortunately, that's where every CC owner should be thankful that Trevor is on their side. If there is any doubt about his relative objectivity, this thread is just one piece of evidence that he isn't some snake oil salesman. To put it bluntly, he does give a crap.

I hope that in the end, Capital does offer the simmer burner as an option for those who need it. If they make it standard, I hope it's a no charge option to change it to a full burner, because there is a market for that too.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

"...a number of CC users have complained that they have been unable to reproduce the results the Trevor gets with his range, without inducing the ignitor clicking..."

Soibean, keep in mind, Trevor could have derated his burner in order to get favorable simmer results where others could not.

Derating the burner means putting in a smaller orifice (aka spud) which send less gas to the burner.

Of course, derating the burner also means that it won't be 23,000 BTU on the high end anymore.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Soibean - fantastic letter.

Snowy - I think they got it.

Shareher - do convey your decision (well, you have....; but really it's more, dunno, more the done thing to convey to them directly instead of this tangential way, on GW)

All -- I just posted a separate thread about a phone call I just received from Capital. They have heard the hue and cry and are on the issue now, I think.

Trevor: an awful lot of people are very grateful for your involvement. For myself, let me say: Thank You.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

jscout, thanks for taking the time to post that.

So it seems you have definitely lowered your simmer to the point where the ignition system is no longer quite happy with it. It seems like if you made any air current at all you'd get a click or two.

From an engineering standpoint I am very interested to see how CC will respond/handle.

-Stooxie


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re: more

@aliris - Sorry, I almost missed your question about ventilation. First off, I'm no expert, nor am I a scientist. But I do understand and have an affinity for the sciences. I think it does have an impact where drafts are concerned. If it's enough to cause the flame to move off the igniter resulting in excessive clicking and thereby causing the user to raise the temp to avoid the clicking resulting in a boil-over, it's a problem. As far as "sucking" more gas out, that's probably not too likely. Unless the house is fully sealed and pressurized, the regulator should always push out gas at a higher pressure than the room. On the other hand the temperature in the environment might have more of an effect. For example, you might get denser gas in colder climates, resulting in a slower flow.

@marcolo - Can you post the recipe? I'd love to try it to see what results I get.

@dodge - Hats off to you, sir. Again, you call a spade a spade.

@BS owners posting on this CC thread - You all remind me of this: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0377092


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Thanks, aliris19. I am (selfishly) rooting for you to get your simmering problem fixed. I really want to get the CC rangetop, but I need to feel confident that it will work for me. This will be the most important purchase we make for our new kitchen. I would hate to spend all that money and then regret it, especially if I knew about the problem in advance.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

kist1, changing the orifice would make no differance to the simmer as the asjustment screw could be turned in far enough to stop the gas flow. The only reason to change the orifice is if you replaced the burner with one with less or smaller holes. This weekend I decided to play around with the simmer. I readjusted the air shutter on one of the rear burners and then adjusted the pilot until I got only an occasional click from the ignitor. I then placed a 2 qt Emeril sauce pan (about 8" in dia. with a thick bottom) half full of water on the burner and attached a digital thermometer. I quickly brought the temp to 135 deg. and then reduced the heat to mimimum. The temp fell to 126 deg. and then gradually raised to 133-135 deg. where it stayed for at least an hour. Then I lit the oven at 425 deg. to cook a home made pizza. By the time the Pizza was done the temp of the water was 142 deg. which I attribute to the fact that the pot was right in front of the oven vent. This was over 1.5 hrs. after I had placed the pot on the burner. The temp never reached the 145 deg. simmer that Capital states. I am on LP 900 ft. above sea level. I have, but did not use the same simmer plate that Trevor used in the broccoli cheese video. Trevor stated that water was not a good simmer test, interested in the reason for that, so I guess I will have to go out and purchase a couple of cans of broccoli cheese soup and repeat, meanwhile I am satisfied thet the CC will do whaat Capital says it will.


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RE: Correction

Sorry, I stand corrected:

@BS owners AND SALESMEN posting on this CC thread - You all remind me of this: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0377092

Also
@stooxie - "any air current at all" is a biased exaggeration on your part. But I expected that.

@Caddidaddy55 - I'm glad you're getting better results. I can see why water is not the perfect test, because there is no mass in the pot to retain and trap heat. You can get a pot full of water to a full boil and it won't boil over. But throw in a chicken carcass and watch out.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Thanks for the explination on the water. By the way the wife has had no problem cooking rice even before I tweaked the burner, however I have adjusted the other burners down some too. I am not sure if she uses the simmer plate or not, but I think not.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

I called Capital this morning and spoke to Bob Waymire. Upon explaining my inability to adjust the burner low enough to get anything other than a rapid boil, he suggested maybe something needed to be adjusted with the ground or that the modules might need to be changed. I freely admit I am not of a technical/engineering-gas-cooker mind so I haven't a clue what that means. Bob will set up service and call me back.

During our talk, I tried to emphasize just what an issue this is for owners and particularly for future owners following our discussions with impending range ordering deadlines looming. I suggested that a fix for what is beginning to be perceived, rightly or wrongly, as a major problem by many on GW (Kitchen forum members have been commenting on a thread there as well) would go a long ways towards garnering future business. Of course, I fumbled my way through that communication cuz I'm not too eloquent over the phone with a 2 y.o. fussing to talk on the phone. :) I'm not sure if he really heard me or not.

I'll let you know what happens next for me.

Tubeman--please, please call Capital as Trevor suggests. The more people they hear from the better. Plus, you need to see if your range can be adjusted!

Snowy-- Please contact Capital!

I encourage *everyone* considering a CC range or rangetop and being turned off by the simmer issue to call Capital to express their concern as Soibean has done. The more potential lost customers they know about the better!


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

@stooxie - "any air current at all" is a biased exaggeration on your part. But I expected that.

You got clicks when you bent down to view the burner. It also started clicking when you turned it down to simmer. Sorry if I am interpreting the video wrong.

The point of this thread, as others have mentioned, is to get a fix not find the best workaround.

Don't blame me! :-)

-Stooxie


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Well then, isn't a separate simmer burner really just a workaround for the range taken as a whole? I'm only posting stuff to be helpful for other CC owners and for potential CC owners to judge for themselves.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Stooxie, jscout - I, for one, appreciate, Hugely all this patient back-and-forth experimenting and explaining!

The labels, "work around" or "fiddling" or all the rest of it don't really matter much. Bottom line is, jscout has found a way to make the range work for him, and he's sharing that with us. Personally, I haven't the expertise, time or patience to do a lot of what he's offering -- but some have!

And all of it is really helpful in getting a handle on this problem, trying to figure out if it is a problem, what needs to be done to back it down from problem-status for mere mortals, etc.

I can't even remember who said what helpful thing at this point but I think you both have many times over.

I appreciated the thought about why water v water-with-carcass might matter in terms of boiling-over; never knew that.

I appreciate that moving the ignitors closer to the iron rings might be a no-brainer and not a "work around" for some -- for me, a generic housewife, essentially, I'm intimidated by the equipment and wouldn't think to nudge it like this. Wrongly, presumably, I'm thinking that it's been engineered to fit precisely where it belongs and any nudging on my part might be destructive. But I'm beginning to understand this is not a rocket we're sending to the moon. [maybe there are bad o-rings somewhere? ;) ]

I appreciate the thoughts about the contribution that a super-high ventilation system might add. I can see "sucking" might not be a propos, but 'replacement' might be. If you can actually physically draw the flame up, you'd be essentially requiring replacement of fuel at a greater rate, no? I'm thinking this really might be an important factor. No engineer I but I'm thinking there may be a ton of itsy bitsy little contributors a couple degrees at a time that result in the bottom line of can't-simmer-my-chili.

Anyway, please don't carp about labels; all these explanations and tests and thinkings and videos are really helpful.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

I just e-mailed Capital. I really am at the point where I have to fish or cut bait. If I don't hear back from them within a few days, I'm afraid its a Bluestar for me, much as I've always loved the Culinarian. Here's the message I wrote:

"Dear Capital,

We are beginning a full kitchen renovation, with demolition due to begin a week from today. I intended to order a 36" Culinarian range this week, but am seriously reconsidering my decision because I have recently become aware of an issue regarding the ability of the Culinarian burners to maintain a low simmer. The ability to simmer at low heat is essential to the way I cook and, as much as I really like the Culinarian, I will not purchase a unit that cannot adequately simmer. I am writing to you directly to ask whether Capital is planning any design modifications and/or fixes that will permit the at least one burner on the unit to maintain a low simmer.

I made the decision to purchase the Culinarian close to a year ago, after substantial research, both online and at appliance stores. It is spec'd into our cabinet design. I cooked on a Culinarian in person, and have been very comfortable with my decision. Although the Culinarian oven racks are not optimal (in terms of placement or construction, particularly compared to the Bluestar racks), I believed the superiority of the burner design outweighed the drawback of the Culinarian racks.

I now have become aware that quite a number of Culinarian owners have experienced substantial trouble with the ability of the burners to maintain a simmer. This is true despite multiple service calls, burner adjustments and use of a wide variety of different types of simmer plates -- none of which appear to remedy the problem adequately.

Would you kindly advise whether Capital is aware of the simmer issue and is planning to offer a modification designed to address the issue. If so, please also advise when that modification will be available on ranges yet to be ordered, as well as whether a retrofit kit will be available for current owners so that they can take advantage of the modification. My decision to purchase a Culinarian rested in part on favorable owner feedback on Capital's commitment to customer service. Apart from how it reflects on Capital's customer service, the availability of a retrofit is particularly important to me because my timeline for ordering a range is such that I may have to order it simply on faith that if simmering presents a problem for me, I will have a remedy backed by Capital. Without such an assurance, I am going to have to order a unit from another manufacturer.

I would appreciate a reply at your earliest convenience since I really need to order a range this week."

I'll keep you posted when/if I hear back from Capital.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

aliris, I know you appreciate all this. Thank you. I wasn't sure what your comfort level was. So, without judging you, I was merely doing what I could in the chance that it was beneficial to you. This applies to any other CC owner with the simmer issue. Finding a fix involves finding a problem.

Here's what I'd like to see. I want to see Capital roll out a "White Glove Service" plan, just like what BS did. Does BS even offer that still? I thought I read somewhere that they cancel the program. Someone will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong. But perhaps a qualified service tech could properly calibrate the range on installation. I'd even accept something like Miele does where if you paid for this post-installation service you get an extended warranty out of it. Anything else along these lines would only benefit the customer and ultimately Capital.

@snowy - You cooked on a CC? How much simmering did you do? If not much, then that's definitely something every potential CC owner should do going forward.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

jscout,

That's a good idea for Captital to have a White Glove service plan. I wonder if part of the problem is the service people in the field don't know how to properly adjust the CC simmer. They may adjust the simmer a little hot to preven the clicking, which is not problem on a lesser burner, and that "a little hot" ends up being too much with the 23,000 BTU burner. The service people may not understand the adjustment window for simmer on a CC is *much narrrower* than on lesser burners, and they need to take more care in performing the adjustment.

The more I think about it, this may be a sensible explanation as to why some of the simmers are too high -- because the service people did not understand how to make this adjustment on a CC and they adjusted the CC simmer too high. They turn down the flame until the ignitor starts clicking and then they back off until the clicking stops -- but if they backed off too far they leave the simmer too high (without realizing it) and then they tell the homeowner "the simmer has been adjusted.".

A service notice and/or more information in the manual would be helpful.

I think I'll retry the adjustments tonight. I suspect I can get my simmer down a little lower than the service rep did.

I can truthfully say there is no way the current simmer panic would cause me to re-think my decision to buy a CC. I LOVE cooking on this stove and in addition to its performance I personally think it is the best-looking open burner range out there.

Billy


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

jscout -- Thanks so much for your videos and words of advice -- they really are helpful.

Unfortunately, I didn't try to simmer (anything other than water very quickly) when I cooked on the Culinarian. I only had about an hour, and was mostly interested in how even the flame distribution was; the fit and finish; the size of the oven and how easy the range was to dissemble/clean/adjust/maintain. I was really impressed with all of those in the Culinarian. And rightly or wrongly, I just assumed any high-end range with with advertised simmering capabilities would be able to do something as basic as a simmer.

So you're absolutely right -- prospective purchasers should try out the simmer capability (using something other than water for more than a minute) as carefully as everything else, particularly those for whom a low simmer is really important. That said, I doubt I would have had a problem getting a good simmer -- it was Trevor's range, and that range appears to simmer quite well. Trevor was incredibly helpful during the visit, and is a true asset to Capital.

They are beautiful ranges, both in form and function, and I hope Capital comes up with a workable solution.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

I still can't try to adjust the machine because -- five stores later -- I still can't find the right size screwdriver. I don't have any metal files or time to whack down a coat hanger. grump.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Just a small tangental observation. I wonder how many live ranges there are across the country to test out for oneself. To my knowledge there are none in my state, and I live in a geographically largish state. It's easy to say "try one out." BUT, how many are there, really, in the U.S.?

As a followup to my posting about calling Bob at Capital today, I've heard nothing back yet.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

@breezy - Yes, you're right. Assuming there is one to try out, like up in MA, it should definitely be an item on the checklist to test.

@aliris - I realized I made a mistake above when I posted about where I bought my screwdriver. It was at a local electrical supply house. After I bought it, I remembered seeing the same brand of tools in the electrical department at HD. I'd assume Lowes would have it in the electrical department too. The brand is Klein Tools. Their website has a "Where to buy" link.

Here is a link that might be useful: Klein Tools


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

I haven't chimed in here yet about our CC simmer because we haven't yet needed a good simmer for some of the things we've done. Heck, most of our kitchen equipment is still in storage.

One thing we will want to do later, though, is be able to hold a pressure cooker at appropriate pressure, and ideally, be able to vary it at will between 5 and 15 bars. With the newer pressure cookers, they don't spew vapor until the pressure gets too high so it's important to hold a steady heat input that doesn't push the pressure over 15 bars (at which point US pressure cookers will start to release steam as a safety). Limiting steam escaping is especially important for stocks (see here for more info).

Anyone done pressure cooker tests yet? Ours won't be out of storage for quite a while still.


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oops, brain fart

between 5 and 15 psi, not bars


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

@caddidaddy55--I'm not sure what your point is that the simmer could be turned in far enough to stop gas flow. Sure you could stop the gas flow outright but I'm not sure what that proves as you have nothing then.

Think about it this way. The ports on the burner head don't change. You lessen the amount of gas going to the ports with a smaller orifice (derating) the fewer BTU are produced. Pick a burner and note the flames or how something simmers. Now, without adjusting the simmer, put in a smaller orifice and you'll see the difference in the flames or in simmering the same thing/amount as before (you'll have to make an air shutter adjustment as well--less gas uses less air obviously).

Sure you could turn any amount of gas off, but if the simmer is on as little as possible with one orifice and you put a smaller orifice in you'll see a reduction in flames, BTU. You have to. If you had 1 port or 100 you're using less gas with the smaller orifice. Again, doing this will be the max BTU down from the 23,000 proportionally.

That being said, whether such a large number of ports on the CC's burner can burn evenly or stay lit with a reduced amount of gas is another question entirely.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Ok, how do I explain this to you? Do you understand anything about the internal combustion engine? Your car may have one. Think of the gas valve as the carbruetor. The orifice is the main fuel jet. It controls the amount of fuel available at wide open throttle, nothing more. The air shutter controls the fuel mixture. The shaft with the knob is the throttle, it controls the amount of fuel mixture throughout the operation range. The simmer adjustment screw is like the idle mixture screw. It controls the fuel to air ratio only at idle, or when the throttle valve is completly closed as it is in simmer. If you were actually to put in an orifice small enough to affect the simmer, that is all you would have is simmer you would not be able to provide more gas to the burner regardless of the knob position. As I stated before. "The only reason to change the orifice is if you replaced the burner with one with less or smaller holes." Then you would need to change the orifice and adjust the air shutter to allow the proper amount of air/fuel mixture for proper combustion. Trevor did mention that he worked with an engineer from Capital and they plugged the outer two rows of holes and changed to a #55 orifice thus producing a 8000 BTU burner. The 8000 BTU was wide open and yes the reduced amount of holes produced a lower simmer temp. The smaller orifice was used to compensate for less holes, but the simmer was still adjusted using the simmer screw.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

caddi: Your explanation is very useful in terms of understanding how to adjust these gas burners. I have a question: Are you saying there are effectively two feeds downstream from the orifice: A main feed controlled by the main valve/throttle (aka the knob) and then when that is fully closed (presumably at the end of travel of the knob) there is still some kind of small feed/bleed remaining (the simmer feed if you will) which can be adjusted up or down in itself. Presumably the level of said feed is inconsequential when compared with the main feed/throttle. Do I understand it correctly? Thank you for your help.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Yes, buffalotina you basicly have it except I would say there are two feeds upstream from the orifice. The orifice is the last thing the fuel passes thru as it enters the burner. There are effectively two passages thru the gas valve that feeds the orifice. The simmer screw is a tapered needle and seat allowing very fine adjustment. Otherwise you understand perfectly. Make sure you hold the shaft closed as you adjust the simmer screw so it doesn't move. If you can't maintain a flame at the end of travel open up the screw (counterclockwise) a little then turn the shaft to the seated position and turn the screw back in until you have an acceptible flame. How warm the burner is will affect it some too. Best to warm it up a bit before adjusting.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Caddi, save your breath. Kist1 is a BS dealer and has been posting what amounts to a witch hunt against Capital, especially the CC. Just tossing out theories with any angle that might make the CC look less appealing. Just do a search on his previous posts. He neglects the fact that no matter how low the BTU, you still have to deal with the igniter clicking. Yeah, that Trevor character is really sneaky alright. Over in another thread, tossing out ideas of how the CC oven loses heat faster due to fluid dynamics of the fan cooling the door latch while ignoring thermodynamics. The constant attempts at derailing Trevor, even the most catty of BS owners accept as a reliable resource for his customers. Pretty desperate measures I tell ya.

I don't think he knows it, But I think much of the GW community is onto him. I've received e-mail thanking me for pointing out his role and that it puts things in perspective.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian...also

Also, another tip to adjusting is do it in a small increment and then pause. It's like opening or closing a dam but on a very tiny scale. You have to pause to let the flow level off. It's very subtle.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Really? Are you certain this is Kist1's IRL affiliation? Does he deny it? Kist1? Please, would you have the decency to disclose fully your bias as the rest of us are trying to? It doesn't disqualify you from being a valued contributor, but it does seem minimally decent of you just to disclose your perspective. Everyone has a bias and perspective. The only real issue is trying to adjust for it and no one can do this appropriately without information as to the angle of perspective.

Just fyi, I, for one, consider it especially valuable when professionals toss in their 2 cents -- it's really very generous of them. I do hope you'll come clean...

Thanks!


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

does anyone know the exact screw driver or where to get it that fits down the brass valve shaft? I have tried 3, the last one i bought had the smallest diameter shaft i have ever seen and it still didn't fit down there.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Sorry to get in so late, but I believe we should be able to agree on the meaning of simmer. I have two definitions. The first is from The Joy of Cooking (1982) with intro: "Simmering protects fragile foods and tenderizes tough ones. The French verb for slow simmer is mijoter, and the French engagingly refer to low simmers-between 130 and 135- as 'making the pot smile.' When food is simmering, bubbles come gently to the surface and barely seem to break. It is the heat best used for soups-uncovered; and for stews, braises, pot roasts and fricassees-covered..."
And second, an essentially identical definition from "Mastering the Art of French Cooking" where under the definition for BOIL it says: "A very slow boil, when the liquid is hardly moving except for a bubble at one point, is called to simmer, mijoter."

I would suggest that anyone (in the USA anyway) who does not accept those authorities, has no business near a high end range. The same goes for anyone who would seriously use water for the testing (see first definition).

While rice cooking doesn't technically use simmering, I think that it could also be used as a basic example where a low burner is required, and burning would be a clear example of failure. It seems to me that if a range can't perform basic tasks, it should be considered a failure.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

TonySak,

Use a 3/32 inch slotted screwdriver. See link below.

Billy

Here is a link that might be useful: Amazon 3/32 Slotted Screwdriver


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

After cooking on and adjusting my CC for the past four months or so I think I have come to the conclusion, as others have, that you will never get a CC with its current burner configuration to get low enough for most of us regardless of how you adjust the "Simmer" screw or igniters. I am not going to get hung up on the "Book" definition of "Simmer".

Why would I make such a bold statement? The CC burner has 92 ports or holes � 36 in the outer ring (39%), 36 in the middle ring (39%) and 20 (22%) in the inner ring. Let�s ASSUME for the sake of the discussion that all of the ports are the same and the output is equally divided between the 92 ports at all settings.

Now look at the picture below:
Photobucket

As posted at the start of this thread this is how one of my burners is adjusted � no flame in the outer ring and no "Clicking". If you follow my calculations above this means this burner is operating at 61% of the burners total capacity and much lower than most of the burners shown on this thread. This week end I cooked two pot roasts at the same time on the CC. One was in a 6 � qt Lodge enameled, cast iron pot and the other in a 13" aluminum oval roaster. Both had a 3 to 4 pound roast, broth, veggies, etc. On "Simmer" this burner produced a temperature of 205F with more bubbles that I would call a low simmer and the other burner was 207F with bubbles. I believe the 92 or 56 ports (the inner and middle rings) will never be able to be adjusted to produce a low enough Btu output to satisfy the average cook.

This is why myself and several others believe that CC will ultimately have to redesign the burner to something like a single 20 port ring (like the inner ring on the current burner) with the appropriate office and air shutter to achieve a true "Low Simmer". I would to see Mr. Kalsi and Capital produce a burner that had a range of something like 100 Btu to 23,000 Btu, but I don�t think it can be done and I know the current burner is no that adjustable.

Side Note: Has any manufacturer ever published the Btu output of its burners at its lowest setting? If they have I surly have not been able to find it. All they publish is the MAXIMUM output and I have no idea what the lowest setting is when expressed as a percentage of the maximum.


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Well.. this shall be the penultimate posting on this thread, I think, unless someone slips one in before me.

So I'll just say here for future reference, that I've just finished a long, productive, interesting service call with the engineer at Capital, Joey. I will report on a separate thread.

I believe there is another manufacturer of the necessary long-shank tool, "Klein". These seem to be tools marketed more or less directly to electrical supply places. Someone posted a link to them, http://www.kleintools.com/, yesterday noting that there was a "where to buy" button on their site. Listed near me are electrical supply warehouses.

So, I think this thread has flamed and simmered out ... or at least flamed. It's gonna die a forced death in a moment.

;)


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RE: Simmering Culinarian(, batman)! [photo heavy - ignore if on d

Klein tools are excellent, but tons of manufacturers make small screwdrivers...

We can't wait to hear more.

Billy


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Simmer service call

Here's the link to my report on a simmer service call from Capital.

Bottom line: they absolutely were able to turn down the heat and not from the front screw alone. Whether it's enough is still open to discussion. Capital is wanting to discuss it: call them. :)

Here is a link that might be useful: simmer service call report


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